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Tactical Air War

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6 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Well it was like that in real life as well, so i don't see what's wrong. Everyone has to decide if his pilot life is more important for him or the overall mission goal. I'd even say the average pilot in TaW flies "safer" then the average pilot in WW2, because in WW2 if you got an order, no matter how dangerous, you had to do it. B17 runs into Germany have been utter suicide until the Mustang D was available, the pilots still obeyed.


No, this isn't comparable to a conventional bombing without escort. The bomber crews tried to stay alive and used tactics for that. They didn't go dive bombing to cause maximum effect no matter what.

This is similar to a kamikaze attack, which would be appropiate for late war Pacific.

If TAW resorts in this sort of playstyle then it won't be much different than WoL for example. The lack of GPS, the limited planes, the limited number of resources are all meant to make the players fly in a more serious manner. If not doing so is still the most effective way then it defeats the purpose of the campaign design in my opinion.

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The only way to stop the solo yolo bomber attacks is to kick people from the server if they get killed or captured for a certain time. 

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1 hour ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:


Yeah but if doing repetitive suicide runs to deplete targets from AAA is an effective way to win compared to the people that try to fly in a more serious manner then it's a problem for the campaign imho. It doesn't encourage me to fly if I know someone in the opposing team will do much more damage than me and my mates by doing this sort of stuff. It's frustating. The land at the base and spawn kill enemy planes was just too much.

 

I agree with Chimango on this one, so in order to stop suicide runs (throwing your pilots life away) the penalty has to far out-way the gain.

I would suggest if you die you lose ALL experience points and planes (except transport for CM's, no +1's either), keep your rank and medals (you earned them) and are prevented from rejoining for x hrs.

Anyone can load up with bombs fly to a target and charge right in if they have no interest in returning, there has to be a deterrent..

 

I do have to say in this instance, if you spawned at a base that was red on the map ie under attack, that's probably not best practice, and you're asking for trouble, i mean

where would be the difference between him circling the base and shooting you up on the ground or landing and doing it.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, JG5_Schuck said:

 

I agree with Chimango on this one, so in order to stop suicide runs (throwing your pilots life away) the penalty has to far out-way the gain.

I would suggest if you die you lose ALL experience points and planes (except transport for CM's, no +1's either), keep your rank and medals (you earned them) and are prevented from rejoining for x hrs.

Anyone can load up with bombs fly to a target and charge right in if they have no interest in returning, there has to be a deterrent..

 

I do have to say in this instance, if you spawned at a base that was red on the map ie under attack, that's probably not best practice, and you're asking for trouble, i mean

where would be the difference between him circling the base and shooting you up on the ground or landing and doing it.

 

 

Devil's advocate, scrambling fighters from an airfield is a realistic IRL expectation, so yes not smart from a score POV, but definitely within reason

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41 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

The only way to stop the solo yolo bomber attacks is to kick people from the server if they get killed or captured for a certain time. 

 

The problem with this is that some of us fly solo bomber attacks when our team mates aren't around and some of us are good at them.  That said, I always fly with a plan to get in, get out and to get home. Still, even though I DON'T fly to ditch or crash on purpose after the attack is done, I still consider every plane I take a potential write-off - as should anybody who spawns in, not matter what or how they fly.  Further though, if I go solo, make my attack and fail, that's not any PROOF of my intention to die on purpose so I can a) either get back up in another plane quickly, or b) trade 1 pilot / plane for quick damage output.  

 

To those who want to punish or restrict solo bombers:

 

Don't worry about my sh=t. Worry about your own.  Punishing a person based on a perceived state of mind or extrapolating their intent based on whether they succeeded or failed is a f=cking garbage state of mind in and of itself.  Maybe it's those who want this kind of clamp down on other players by lumping them into some sort of yolo group, just because SOME play that way, that are the real cancer.  And don't give me that crap that it's not realistic or intended to be able to have any chance of success solo flying.  I paid money for the game.  I don't exploit. I'll fly how I f=cking well please.  If it's not 100% impossible to succeed - which would be totally fake btw, then I'll take my chances if I want to.  

 

I would appreciate not being penalized any more than anybody else who is killed or captured based on whether or not someone dislikes my flying style.    

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31 minutes ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

The problem with this is that some of us fly solo bomber attacks when our team mates aren't around and some of us are good at them.  That said, I always fly with a plan to get in, get out and to get home. Still, even though I DON'T fly to ditch or crash on purpose after the attack is done, I still consider every plane I take a potential write-off - as should anybody who spawns in, not matter what or how they fly.  Further though, if I go solo, make my attack and fail, that's not any PROOF of my intention to die on purpose so I can a) either get back up in another plane quickly, or b) trade 1 pilot / plane for quick damage output.  

 

The person in question here isn't planning on dying either or doing it purpose. He simply considers his plane to be a write-off as well. I don't think anyone should consider their plane to be a potential write-off. So you misunderstood the point. It does not necessarily has anything to do with your intention. It's about the execution. It is very well possible to survive bombing runs even deep into the enemy territory even when flying solo if you are smart about it. But you should worry about doing an unescorted raid deep into enemy territory. Fly solo and take the risk. This is supposed to be a team game and everyone enjoys it that way. Nobody stops you from teaming up with people from your team. 

 

31 minutes ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

To those who want to punish or restrict solo bombers:

 

Don't worry about my sh=t. Worry about your own.  Punishing a person based on a perceived state of mind or extrapolating their intent based on whether they succeeded or failed is a f=cking garbage state of mind in and of itself.  Maybe it's those who want this kind of clamp down on other players by lumping them into some sort of yolo group, just because SOME play that way, that are the real cancer.  And don't give me that crap that it's not realistic or intended to be able to have any chance of success solo flying.  I paid money for the game.  I don't exploit. I'll fly how I f=cking well please.  If it's not 100% impossible to succeed - which would be totally fake btw, then I'll take my chances if I want to.  

 

I would appreciate not being penalized any more than anybody else who is killed or captured based on whether or not someone dislikes my flying style.    

 

I don't understand what riled you up like this. 

 

My proposed change will affect everyone, not just bombers. Fly good and smart and you won't have any issues. Fly dumb and risky and you might face the consequences. Currently you don't have to give a crap about your survivability no matter your intentions. The Plane limit is obviously not cutting it.  

 

You paid money for game? great, so did everyone else around here. You aren't entitled to anything. Nobody stops you from enjoying the game on a different server if you don't like it anymore.

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2 hours ago, JG5_Schuck said:

 

I would suggest if you die you lose ALL experience points and planes (except transport for CM's, no +1's either), keep your rank and medals (you earned them) and are prevented from rejoining for x hrs.

 

 

 

Can't wait to tackle the balance issue when that penalty is in effect for 5v40.... 

 

I have to ask, do any of you even attempt to understand downstream affect when providing input?

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27 minutes ago, =BES=Coyote-66 said:

Can't wait to tackle the balance issue when that penalty is in effect for 5v40.... 

 

I have to ask, do any of you even attempt to understand downstream affect when providing input?

 

The balance issue can be tackled through adjusting the game play, not by allowing people one life per flight!

And yes you can ask, and i do understand the effect, very little on those people who look after their virtual pilot, and fly in a smarter manner.

Whilst at the same time reducing the number of suicide jocks, and freeing up spaces when the server is rammed to capacity!

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1 hour ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

The person in question here isn't planning on dying either or doing it purpose. He simply considers his plane to be a write-off as well. I don't think anyone should consider their plane to be a potential write-off. So you misunderstood the point. It does not necessarily has anything to do with your intention. It's about the execution. It is very well possible to survive bombing runs even deep into the enemy territory even when flying solo if you are smart about it. But you should worry about doing an unescorted raid deep into enemy territory. Fly solo and take the risk. This is supposed to be a team game and everyone enjoys it that way. Nobody stops you from teaming up with people from your team. 

 

 

I don't understand what riled you up like this. 

 

My proposed change will affect everyone, not just bombers. Fly good and smart and you won't have any issues. Fly dumb and risky and you might face the consequences. Currently you don't have to give a crap about your survivability no matter your intentions. The Plane limit is obviously not cutting it.  

 

You paid money for game? great, so did everyone else around here. You aren't entitled to anything. Nobody stops you from enjoying the game on a different server if you don't like it anymore.

Considering my plane as a "potential" write off doesn't make it a "guaranteed" write off.  I do everything I can to make it as much of a "potential" return to base as I can.  I understand about risk taking on solo runs into enemy territory.  I don't think there should be more rules to penalize me for taking such risks.  Saying "everyone enjoys it that way" is a generalization.  I happen to enjoy with and without teamwork depending on the situation. 

 

"Nobody stops you from teaming up with your team." > Re-read my first sentence of the post you responded to.  Make sure you understand it this time.  Let me add that I team with the Cat Herd (randoms) as well.  Sometimes neither is around. 

 

The issue I have is that you equate "risky" as "dumb".  Therefore it seems you want to penalize people willing to take risks that may pay off to be "smart" the same a those who take "dumb" risks.

 

"You aren't entitled to anything."  >  Likewise.  That includes trying to make rules that penalize others for playing in ways you disagree with.

I enjoy many servers.  I don't do stupid things that warrant banning, so I will continue to do so at my leisure. 

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16 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

 

Christmas break till 25.12.2018

 

Which time will it open on 25.? Just asking because that's basically the only day i can fly until the new year

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As someone mentioned earlier, this suicide bomber troll it's the icing on the cake, some people flying VVS just had enough in current edition. Not because of a particular incident/pilot, but as a sum of several issues altoghether.

 

Red pilots -losing interest map after map- realize they have no chance to win TAW (again, for the 3rd time in a row), not under current unbalanced wining conditions with ju52s dropping cyborg paratroopers while VVS has nothing; and also the most demotivating the constant difference in server quorum favouring LW 2:1 map after map, mission after mission; always flying with -10 or -15 pilots. Remember, having this situation a couple of times might be fun, when it is a constant, it just becomes tedious and frustrating always being at the defensive.

 

In adittion to that there are these trolls (real pests) making a difference in map outcome to their favour not by flying smart and skilled but by using exploits and flying like kamikazes all the time. So what's the point in joining TAW? One side it's already excluded from getting a victory, and arcadish gamers are not punished by server rules. The two most important aspects that made TAW different from other servers, are removed.


IMO admins really have to re-evaluate all this for next edition. 

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2 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

As someone mentioned earlier, this suicide bomber troll it's the icing on the cake, some people flying VVS just had enough in current edition. Not because of a particular incident/pilot, but as a sum of several issues altoghether.

 

Red pilots -losing interest map after map- realize they have no chance to win TAW (again, for the 3rd time in a row), not under current unbalanced wining conditions with ju52s dropping cyborg paratroopers while VVS has nothing; and also the most demotivating the constant difference in server quorum favouring LW 2:1 map after map, mission after mission; always flying with -10 or -15 pilots. Remember, having this situation a couple of times might be fun, when it is a constant, it just becomes tedious and frustrating always being at the defensive.

 

In adittion to that there are these trolls (real pests) making a difference in map outcome to their favour not by flying smart and skilled but by using exploits and flying like kamikazes all the time. So what's the point in joining TAW? One side it's already excluded from getting a victory, and arcadish gamers are not punished by server rules. The two most important aspects that made TAW different from other servers, are removed.


IMO admins really have to re-evaluate all this for next edition. 

 

I personally think that there is still a good chance of a 4/4 draw for this TAW.  Some of us still fight on in spite of the frustration.  Sometimes VVS still stymies LW in spite of being out numbered. 

 

My cake is iced by players using +1 LW planes to ram VVS bombers (non +1) out of the sky - sometimes right when they've just dropped flaps and gear on final approach. 

I agree that bombing with +1 planes (jabo 109's, Ju 87's and 110's) just to die, rinse and repeat, is also a bad thing that needs to be looked at.   

 

I agree that genuine exploiters need to be dealt with and admins might want to develop a rule set for those situations.  Any exploit that can have a hardcode written to stop it should also be looked into.

 

I admit to being quite defensive when it comes to non-exploiting players who have a particular flying style that looks "almost-but-not-quite" like exploiters potentially getting lumped into that lot and punished though.  I also really despise the idea that everybody will have to suffer extra strict rules to halt those who act badly.  

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47 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

As someone mentioned earlier, this suicide bomber troll it's the icing on the cake, some people flying VVS just had enough in current edition. Not because of a particular incident/pilot, but as a sum of several issues altoghether.

 

Red pilots -losing interest map after map- realize they have no chance to win TAW (again, for the 3rd time in a row), not under current unbalanced wining conditions with ju52s dropping cyborg paratroopers while VVS has nothing; and also the most demotivating the constant difference in server quorum favouring LW 2:1 map after map, mission after mission; always flying with -10 or -15 pilots. Remember, having this situation a couple of times might be fun, when it is a constant, it just becomes tedious and frustrating always being at the defensive.

 

In adittion to that there are these trolls (real pests) making a difference in map outcome to their favour not by flying smart and skilled but by using exploits and flying like kamikazes all the time. So what's the point in joining TAW? One side it's already excluded from getting a victory, and arcadish gamers are not punished by server rules. The two most important aspects that made TAW different from other servers, are removed.


IMO admins really have to re-evaluate all this for next edition. 


Flying for VVS while being outnumbered would have been more or less reasonable if there were no paratroopers. Otherwise you are stretched out: if you guard airfields, cities will be captured by tanks. If you concentrate on wiping out tanks, which takes an enormous amount of effort and requires very good coordination to take out AAA and fighter cover, you will miss bombed out airfields and paradrops. So if you are one of the 30 red pilots facing 50 axis ones, what would be your choice?

Edited by mincer
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As @xJammer , said he was bored and for him it was entertaining to do this. He may even enjoy all this attention (which Im sure he does , bases on his history)

This question is what do people want TAW to be? The server admins ultimately as its their server, but the community also they need to consider in their decision , because this kind of player is going to put some people off playing on TAW. And that is their choice( one I can respect)


At the very least the rules need updating.  To ban or not ban?, thats a decision for the server admins. But It would say that it does send a clear message on the types of players they want to have on TAW.

 

There are many servers were people would not like this kind of behavior, but it would be more tolerated, and might even be funny (and @xJammerknows this)

I always though this server with the virtual life idea had a goal in mind???? I don't think this kind of behavior was part of that when admins created TAW.

I think the vast majority of people that play on TAW don't want this kind of player here. (I personally don't want to spend the time I play online with guys like this, out of their own enjoyment at the expense of others enjoyment(trolling), or I would just play on those other servers.

 

So is a ban(short)  and/or at the least a rule update not the way to maybe proceed? Give him a chance to be part of a fun community (not just for himself)

And send a clear message? (because obviously it not clear to some people what TAW stands for)

Edited by =RS=Stix_09
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1 hour ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Red pilots -losing interest map after map- realize they have no chance to win TAW (again, for the 3rd time in a row), not under current unbalanced wining conditions with ju52s dropping cyborg paratroopers while VVS has nothing; and also the most demotivating the constant difference in server quorum favouring LW 2:1 map after map, mission after mission; always flying with -10 or -15 pilots. Remember, having this situation a couple of times might be fun, when it is a constant, it just becomes tedious and frustrating always being at the defensive.

 

That sums up my experience after Map 3, I lost all motivation to sit down and fly out some missions on TAW. 

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So another server stop will be on happy new year? There will be main holiday for red side. And it will be unfair to keep server running on 31-1 if now it stopped.

Edited by =KK=Des_

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image.png.512c4d52da1e94fb39787c296ea6988e.png

does seem a shame to stop the server. I get that christmas is likely to put a dent in organised org's particularly for the bigger ones, but the war must go on ;)

I know today is the special day in Germany, and perhaps most of mainland Europe ? but for the brits at least, we do that stuff tomorrow. Today is just another working day. 

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Mi escuadrón, alterna el bando, una campaña de rojo, azul, rojo, azul, rojo, azul ...
Vuelo exclusivamente bombarderos (a veces Jabo , y rara vez combatientes).
Muchas veces volamos en grupo, dependiendo de los asientos disponibles.
Pero a veces hago vuelos  en solitario , y no por eso soy un Kamikace, como algunos de ustedes quieren  hacernos ver .
No todos los pilotos que hacen un vuelo  en solitario  son Kamikaces.
..... y por supuesto, aquellos que bombardeamos  bases a 6000m, atacamos puntos de defensa a 6000m, intentamos destruir trenes a 6000m ......... NO SOMOS KAMIKACES ...

Valorar  más vuestro  tiempo en volar y tratar de ayudar a vuestro  bando .

 

... cuando no es discutido por A ... es discutido por B.

 

 

 

 

 

My squad, alternates the side, a campaign of red one of blue, red, blue, red, blue .......
I fly exclusively bombers (sometimes JABOS, and rarely fighters).
Many times we fly in a group, depending on the seats that are available.
But sometimes I make flights alone, and not for that I am a Kamikace, as some of you want to see.
Not all the pilots that make a flight alone are Kamikaces.
..... and of course those who bombed bases at 6000m, we attacked defensive points at 6000m, we tried to destroy trains at 6000m ......... WE ARE NOT KAMIKACES ...

Value more your time in flying and try to help your side.

... when it is not discussed by A ..... it is discussed by B.


MERRY CHRISTMAS .

regards

 

 

 

 

 

 


FELIZ NAVIDAD . FELIZ NAVIDAD  ♥ ️

Saludos

Edited by Ala13_Antiguo
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Just now, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Considering my plane as a "potential" write off doesn't make it a "guaranteed" write off.  I do everything I can to make it as much of a "potential" return to base as I can. 

 

You don't do everything you can to make it as much of a potential return to base as you can, otherwise you would go with an escort. Simple.

 

Just now, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

"Nobody stops you from teaming up with your team." > Re-read my first sentence of the post you responded to.  Make sure you understand it this time.  Let me add that I team with the Cat Herd (randoms) as well.  Sometimes neither is around.

 

I don't know why you have to be disrespectful towards me but i guess thats the general way around here sadly. 

 

Just now, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

The issue I have is that you equate "risky" as "dumb".  Therefore it seems you want to penalize people willing to take risks that may pay off to be "smart" the same a those who take "dumb" risks.

 

I think our discussion is going in the wrong direction. I think the problem runs deeper than the recent case of suicide runs. I think there is a general problem with many Bomber pilots (or pilots in general) not caring about how many times they get killed or captured, all they worry about is bringing their bombs to the target. As i understand it, this is not in the spirit of TAW. 

 

In reality, there was a certain bond between bomber crews and their escort fighters for obvious reasons. Something i miss in TAW. In fact i often see people trying to divide both groups (if there are any groups to speak of in the first place). 

 

A serious question to you: Why are there so few escorts accompanying bombers? is it because of people considering it bothersome? is it because people don't care about increasing their survival rate? 

 

In my opinion, many bomber pilots don't really care as long as they hit their target.

 

Just now, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

"You aren't entitled to anything."  >  Likewise.  That includes trying to make rules that penalize others for playing in ways you disagree with.

I enjoy many servers.  I don't do stupid things that warrant banning, so I will continue to do so at my leisure. 

 

Exactly, i am not entitled to anything either. But i am not the one throwing a tantrum about wanting to play how i want. I am proposing changes to improve the gameplay which you are obviously free to disagree to. I am enjoying TAW either way so far.

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TAW seems to have lost some of its charm in recent campaigns for me. There seems to be fewer targets in recent campaigns, and personally I think it is a shame that only front line airfields can be bombed. This forces fewer combat zones, making it much more difficult for both the solo bomber pilot and also the solo fighter pilots on defensive patrols. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ala13_Antiguo said:

But sometimes I make flights alone, and not for that I am a Kamikace, as some of you want to see.
Not all the pilots that make a flight alone are Kamikaces.
..... and of course those who bombed bases at 6000m, we attacked defensive points at 6000m, we tried to destroy trains at 6000m ......... WE ARE NOT KAMIKACES ...

Value more your time in flying and try to help your side.

 

This.
I can't understand why some people are thinking that lonely bombers are always kamikaze (maybe it's just an English problem for some posts, I don't know)...
Yes personally sometimes I did a few kamikaze runs, when it was really really needed (protecting a depot attacked by a tank column for example), but I also did a lot of lonely bombing runs and I have a survival rate at more than 90% on those "proper" runs (the only times I was shot down were by a lucky large caliber AA shot at more than 4-5k distance, can't do anything against that when it's not your lucky day...)

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3 minutes ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

This.
I can't understand why some people are thinking that lonely bombers are always kamikaze (maybe it's just an English problem for some posts, I don't know)...
Yes personally sometimes I did a few kamikaze runs, when it was really really needed (protecting a depot attacked by a tank column for example), but I also did a lot of lonely bombing runs and I have a survival rate at more than 90% on those "proper" runs (the only times I was shot down were by a lucky large caliber AA shot at more than 4-5k distance, can't do anything against that when it's not your lucky day...)

 

Yea there seems to be a misunderstanding. If you have a 90% survival rate, you won't be affected by any changes that are targeted at those suicide bombers.

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1 hour ago, =11=Herne said:

image.png.512c4d52da1e94fb39787c296ea6988e.png

 

If anyone could pull off an Ace in a Flight while hanging from a parachute, it'd be Scharfi! Each reindeer counts as a separate AK, right?

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1 hour ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

Yea there seems to be a misunderstanding. If you have a 90% survival rate, you won't be affected by any changes that are targeted at those suicide bombers.

 

 

A solo 190 with a 500Kg bomb slope bombs a depot at 600kph and escapes unscathed every time.  A flight of six Ju-87s execute a perfectly coordinated, realistic dive attack on the same depot and suffer 40-70% casualties every time.  The 190 is rewarded handsomely, the Ju-87s are punished and stop flying.

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2 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

A solo 190 with a 500Kg bomb slope bombs a depot at 600kph and escapes unscathed every time.  A flight of six Ju-87s execute a perfectly coordinated, realistic dive attack on the same depot and suffer 40-70% casualties every time.  The 190 is rewarded handsomely, the Ju-87s are punished and stop flying.

 

Sorry i don't understand your point?

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1 hour ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

Yea there seems to be a misunderstanding. If you have a 90% survival rate, you won't be affected by any changes that are targeted at those suicide bombers.

 

Excactly.........

 

There always seems to be people who want to complain without attempting to give solutions.

And those that do offer solutions are immediately attacked.

I've made a few suggestions, which i hope could be trialed to see how they work, as opposed to implemented in the whole campaign (in case they dont!!)

I believe they would help with number imbalance (both ways), reduce the effectiveness of bombers and para drops (without the need to cap the numbers, or nobble the planes),

assisting the loosing side (making it worth while joining even when out numbered heavily)

They would encourage better game play and reward those who do. They would even allow introduction of the U2 in a meaningful role!

 

And above all................ help to bring back the 'charm'

 

Have a Great Christmas.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

Sorry i don't understand your point?

 

 

Your idea to punish death to stop gamey behavior on TAW is wrong-headed because the best tactics for survival on TAW are gamey.  Why reward the solo 190 and punish the flight of Ju-87s?  Why not attempt to create an environment where more realistic tactics work better?

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TAW becomes the same old same old boring stuff, now with suicide bomb runs. The latter are happening for a reason as well - they are effective for the team.

 

What is more effective?

1 bomb run in a heavy bomber per 2hrs?

Or 10 bomb runs with half the bombload? 

It's incomplete design, it must get improved. 

 

If heavy bombers (high fuel and pre-defined fixed heavy loadouts) spawn at altitudes further backwards on the map, we will get several things:

 

More altitude combat. 

Larger groups flying heavy bombers more frequently. 

More bomber targets for fighters as well. 

More realism not for each individual but for the scenario. Heavy Bombers didn't climb from Frontline airfields. 

Proper Bomber sorties become more time-effective. 

 

Currently you have 2 hrs per round. .

15min spent logging in & assembling. 

30mins climb. 

20mins flight to target. 

15mins shallow dive back home to a Frontline AF. 

 

That only allows for 1 sortie. Starting within 1st hour of each round. It's bs. It's wrong. Suicide bombing is way more effective to the group. I see Peshkas, A20s, He-111, Ju-88, all divebombing. There's no time to climb and bomb level. And if you do, hurricanes will put your bombs 500m beside the target. 

 

It must get improved. Introduce these extra spawn-ins and soften some winds. 

 

Note: I was talking about heavy bombers with carefully pre-set heavy loadouts. No 5k IL2s, blister turrets or Stukas please. 

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22 hours ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

You don't do everything you can to make it as much of a potential return to base as you can, otherwise you would go with an escort. Simple.

 

 

I don't know why you have to be disrespectful towards me but i guess thats the general way around here sadly. 

 

 

I think our discussion is going in the wrong direction. I think the problem runs deeper than the recent case of suicide runs. I think there is a general problem with many Bomber pilots (or pilots in general) not caring about how many times they get killed or captured, all they worry about is bringing their bombs to the target. As i understand it, this is not in the spirit of TAW. 

 

In reality, there was a certain bond between bomber crews and their escort fighters for obvious reasons. Something i miss in TAW. In fact i often see people trying to divide both groups (if there are any groups to speak of in the first place). 

 

A serious question to you: Why are there so few escorts accompanying bombers? is it because of people considering it bothersome? is it because people don't care about increasing their survival rate? 

 

In my opinion, many bomber pilots don't really care as long as they hit their target.

 

 

Exactly, i am not entitled to anything either. But i am not the one throwing a tantrum about wanting to play how i want. I am proposing changes to improve the gameplay which you are obviously free to disagree to. I am enjoying TAW either way so far.

 

Sometimes, depending on my plan, the escort gets spotted and downed first giving away my position.  Yes, it is a tactical decision to go solo if chat and comms reports the opponent is (mostly) distracted somewhere else.  Clouds sometimes make a better escort than a fighter or 2 orbiting above me.  If they flew formation with me in the clouds, then they are too low and too slow to actually intercept anything coming to get me and are easier targets for pouncing 109s and 190s.  Often times they can even be downed without even dragging away the attackers so the attackers don't lose sight of me. Sometimes, fighter escort simply doesn't have the fuel capacity to fly my planned route or meet at a rendezvous point. Sometimes flying in a formation of bombers makes them more visible than the mutual gunner cover is worth.  Not so simple, as I have just demonstrated.

 

[edited]

 

I'm for the 'fair spririt' of TAW.  I get that suicide pilots are not a desirable thing.  There's suicide bombers and there are also suicide +1plane rammers.  The problem is that the wrong punishment based on success/fail % will also lump together those who are new, those willing to take bigger risks but have every intent of completing the mission, those having bad luck, and those who simply fail to rate well enough on the "git guud" meter with the exploiters.  Besides, there'd be nothing to stop ACE pilots from repeatedly downing easy prey taking off or landing until said prey incurs a penalty for behavior they weren't doing.   Either that, or the system punishes everybody, which basically makes it worse all-around and doesn't effectively weed out the bad actors. 

 

In reality, when my team or randoms I'm friends with are on comms, and we discuss a plan. We consider whether or not to fly as formation, split up into separate elements, or cause distractions elsewhere while others slip behind enemy lines either solo or as a formation.  Sometimes the best escort is the one that has the opponent forced to put out a dumpster fire on the other side of the map. It's not my fault that people sometimes see unescorted bombers flying and think "no teamwork" instead of seeing the larger tactical picture.  Admittedly, sometimes there is, in fact, no teamwork. I guess that's up to the observer to decide. Maybe they're right. Maybe they're wrong. 

 

Your opinion may be "many bomber pilots don't really care as long as they hit their target", and that's fine.  I disagree, however. Especially for VVS side.  We NEED to preserve our non +1 bombers vs. +1 Stukas and the Pe-2's more-athletic cousin +1 BF-110.  Just because some of us are willing to risk a loss or two to further the goal of winning doesn't mean we're exploiting.   Also wanting to punish everybody based on opinion is not a good thing.   Prove the person's intent before calling them out for exploiting.  If you punish poor execution, then you simply punish anybody who fails to rate high enough on the aforementioned "Git Guud"(tm) meter. 

 

I'm speaking up about not wanting to be dictated to about how to play.  I'm not exploiting, but since some of my (and other's) legit tactics are not to other's liking, that's exactly what is being attempted as added to server rules in disguise as "the only way to weed out non-legit exploiters".  The pseudo-logic behind the rules being asked for would punish certain legitimate tactics by default, along with the exploiters, and some would simply say "Too bad. So sad.  They shouldn't have been flying contrary to OUR tactics handbook anyway.".   

Pushing to make rules that conveniently punish exploiters and 'undesirable' (but legitmate) tactics alike is a bigger and more bullshit exploit than what the original issue of the rule was in the first place.  So, yes.  I do get pissed about it and I do call it out.  You can rest assured, it's nowhere near a "tantrum".  Pardon me for gagging a little when I smell shit.

 

Come up with an actually logical rule set without loopholes that punishes the exploiters, not legit tactics users other may disagree with as well, and I will shut up and back it 100%.

 

I'm not the one asking for changes that could punish non-exploitative tactics in the same group as the exploiters, then that new punishment rule having the kind of loopholes in it that can be exploited as well.

And... apparently you're not enjoying TAW as much as you put on if you're campaigning on the forum for these kind of rules.   

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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21 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

Your idea to punish death to stop gamey behavior on TAW is wrong-headed because the best tactics for survival on TAW are gamey.  Why reward the solo 190 and punish the flight of Ju-87s? 

 

I still don't completely understand you i am afraid.

 

First of all a 190 doing a bomb drop is still at risk even though it is a fast flying plane. It won't be able to escape when the defending fighter knows what he is doing and is in a comparable aircraft like the La5 or Yak 1b. Secondly, the Ju-87 is probably the worst attacking aircraft in the game. Flying it without escort to a depot can very well be considered suicide. You might as well bring a knife to a gunfight. 

 

Quote

Why not attempt to create an environment where more realistic tactics work better?

 

My proposed changes do exactly that. They promote flying in a team and valuing your virtual life.

 

[edited]

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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16 hours ago, Operation_Ivy said:

The effect on player balance is definitely something to consider here but this issue needs changes anyway too. 

In fact, the question of the balance of forces of the parties is primary. It makes no sense to cover a single bomber if it requires too many fighters. Especially if the near targets of your side at the same time fall under the attack of the enemy is in the majority. Another problem is the accuracy of the bombing. Not once was a member of the missions 
 to support the group of bombers, which dropped bombs wide of the goal. Little that acts so depressing on group fighter cover. In principle, as the practice of projects such as NALVAR and ADV, as soon as the fines for the loss of aircraft increase, the level of coordination between fighters and bombers in need of cover increases. Tactical bombing of front-line targets in the current implementation of the server is not beneficial to fighters. Time spent on the escort, the enemy during the flight did not get caught, the flight length of less than 30 minutes does not count as combat. What is the point of a fighter to accompany a bomber....?  If they implemented the mission's cover of attack aircraft with the appropriate bonuses and penalties for loss disguised attack aircraft or bomber will appear much more sense.

 

That's the way example of cover important, albeit not attack aircraft:

 

 

The efforts of several fighter cover, on its territory, in a nearly twofold numerical superiority near his airfield was insufficient. What to say when attacking a group of FW-190 with excess and energy....?

 

P.S. Sorry for the automatic translation

Edited by =FPS=Cutlass
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15 minutes ago, =FPS=Cutlass said:

In fact, the question of the balance of forces of the parties is primary.

 

While definitely true, it is a knockout-argument. Everything stands and falls with the player balance.

 

Concerning the example video:

 

It is advisable, when escorting low level flying aircrafts which are very vulnerable, to fly ahead to try and clear the airspace. It is true however that is exceptionally difficult to escort aircrafts flying on the deck, especially as LW. That's why level bombing is so crucial.

 

Also nice shooting there.

Edited by Operation_Ivy

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