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Tactical Air War

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If you're going to ban people for gaming the game mechanics, then maybe you should also ban red pilots doing one way trip raids on the depots, arriving 1 min before the mission ends so that they don't have to fly back and get saved miraculously in the air just as interceptors are about to catch them...

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I was killed by a Pe2 just spawned in this campagne. When bailed out three reds tried to kill me on chute. Sportsmanship isn‘t a thing for everybody, not here not in real live. I think „He“ will not repeat this reading the comments... ceep cool all and show TAW that‘s worth to stay here!

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Ivy, I don't think their trying to threaten the devs. They have lost interest and immersion or whatever the hell you want to call someone's version of fun. People generally dont play games they dont find enjoyable. This for them (I'm sick of this crap but I won't say I'll leave) is the icing on the cake. They obviously care alot about the game, but people can only take so much before they leave.

 

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39 minutes ago, OpticFlow said:

gaming the game mechanics

 

Well, gaming the game mechanics? If I shoot down a friendly on the runway with my gunner is also gaming the game mechanics, right?

Technically possible, but much senseless besides, of course, being a team killer.

 

The behavior of this individual is really abominable - it's like those campers in FPS games waiting before a spawn point and having "their"

fun. What a challenge for them to gather some miserable score!

 

There are stupid people everywhere, alas. But stupid ones trying to justify their stupidity is really impertinent.

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I'm not sure that it is a good idea to ban players for behavior that isn't explicitly against the rules. xjammer didn't exactly invent the practice of "spawn camping" in MP games, after all. By all means ban the practice (I can only imagine how infuriating it must have been for the affected players), but banning players for unsportsmanlike yet legal conduct would quickly winnow the ranks on both sides.

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12 minutes ago, Manstein16 said:

I'm not sure that it is a good idea to ban players for behavior that isn't explicitly against the rules. xjammer didn't exactly invent the practice of "spawn camping" in MP games, after all. By all means ban the practice (I can only imagine how infuriating it must have been for the affected players), but banning players for unsportsmanlike yet legal conduct would quickly winnow the ranks on both sides.

 

I don't think there are that many players who will be affected by banning those who literally land on enemy fields and shoot the pilots out of spawning planes.

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Manstein, please be aware that he wasn't strafing people on the runway, but spawn camping, by standing next to the spawn meters beside the spawn point, and sniping the pilots' head. 

 

The screen wouldn't even load up. You'd basically press start, and be dead. 

 

To add insult to the injury his posts and comments showed that he thought it was funny, before he edited them. 

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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Just to clarify, what did you expect? You saw the AF being under attack so you wanted to die on runway, not in hangar or wherever?

I can see how this was a dick move by xJammer but at the same time you took the risk spawning there.
Yes it may be bad manners but it is not worthy of a ban. Just patch it befor this becomes common behawior and forget about it, duh.

It's only a game, why you heff to be mad?

 

Edited by =/Hospiz/=uGryzzli

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1 minute ago, =/Hospiz/=uGryzzli said:

Just to clarify, what did you expect? You saw the AF being under attack so you wanted to die on runway, not in hangar or wherever?

I can see how this was a dick move by xJammer but at the same time you took the risk spawning there.
Yes it may be bad manners but it is not worthy of a ban.

 

This attitude leads to a future of a large squad landing at every airfield on a map and shutting down an entire team.

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1 minute ago, Talon_ said:

 

This attitude leads to a future of a large squad landing at every airfield on a map and shutting down an entire team.

Yes, that's why I see this as only an example of what could happen. Instead of shitting on xjammer we should persuade mission designer to prevent this so what you're saying won't happen

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I see xJammer has been doing more friends lately. But why you guys want to get him banned? I mean i agree he has a notorious psychopath behaviour enjoying himself when other people it's having a bad time, i agree he is one hell of a troll who also turns a flightsim into an arcade Air Quake arena, but why ban him? He did nothing against the rules.

 

Actually we have to be thankful to this character, cause with his constant exploits, it's much easier to see the server flaws and try to correct them for the following edition.

 

I have already suggested many changes for next TAW, some of them refer to punishing suicide bombers like xJammer by applying a X minutes ban for KIA/captured pilots. I'd say 15' kick for KIA/captured and 5' for bailed ones. And on top of that it would also be nice to have some kind of system like the one at "Operation Blue Flag" server in DCS, where if a pilot loses three lives he is banned till lives reset (every 4 to 5 hours).

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20 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Manstein, please be aware that he wasn't strafing people on the runway, but spawn camping, by standing next to the spawn meters beside the spawn point, and sniping the pilots' head. 

 

The screen wouldn't even load up. You'd basically press start, and be dead. 

 

To add insult to the injury his posts and comments showed that he thought it was funny, before he edited them. 

 

I'm aware of what he was doing. It was extremely poor form...but also in compliance with the existing ruleset. That ruleset needs to be changed to ban non-flying spawn camping ASAP, of course, but that is different from banning a player who respected the current ruleset (if not in spirit).

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8 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Actually we have to be thankful to this character, cause with his constant exploits, it's much easier to see the server flaws and try to correct them for the following edition.

^ This. Exactly what I'm saying.

 

9 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

I'd say 15' kick for KIA/captured and 5' for bailed ones.

Personally I dont like these type of punishments because this system cannot differenciate between player trying to play fair and failing (sometimes you just get shot down) and yolo flyouts.
If you get kicked regardless what's the point trying?

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Perhaps the rule should be:

If you find and use an exploit, and are found to be using the exploit, then you get a warning.  

If you repeat the exploit after a warning , then you get banned.

 

It will, of course, be on the admins to fix the exploit (if possible) as soon as possible.  

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6 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Salient point from one of my guys

 

 

Screenshot_20181223-132247.png

 

Someone might want to tell the pilots of the U.S. 7th Air Force in the Pacific that. AF sniping, intentional rammings, and suicidal airlandings on U.S. runways by the Japanese were a fact of life. Hopefully that doesn't mean that TAW is going to allow those practices just because they happened in real life.

Edited by Manstein16

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The question is what we are expecting in playing IL2? It‘s not Sim City and not X-Plane, it‘s a Simulation of WW2. War isn‘t fair at all. Glorious and tragedy, sportsmanship and brutalism, fascination of flying and suddenly being shot down is part of air war. We are killing s.o. all the time, the better the higher the score. What do you like to fly, a Game or a Simulation of War? If server forbits parachute killing and bombing rear Airfields it‘s a Game, isn‘t it? War ist totally risky...

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For me it's an exploit of the holes in the rules so I call for permanent ban but it's only my opinion not the LG devs. Thank You

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So because there's one [edited] who wants to ruin everyone elses fun everyones going to join together to kill the server. Sounds like a great plan and totally not overreacting at all.

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
Rule 7
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Well that was a dumpster fire of a read.

 

Hope everyone here takes a breather for the holidays.

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19 minutes ago, 392FS_Jred said:

So because there's one douchebag who wants to ruin everyone elses fun everyones going to join together to kill the server. Sounds like a great plan and totally not overreacting at all.

Lol my thoughts exactly.  Let's all get super pissy and take our ball and leave.

 

Seems like we'd rather try to cure a symptom (ban an inividual) instead of the illness (multiple system/rule flaws).  The question I have yet to see answered is how was a single fighter able to defeat ALL AAA on a spawn-able airfield? Nobody can question that this is a flaw in the system that was able to be exploited.

@xJammer, thanks for bringing it to light so it can be fixed for next campaign.

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I don’t propose we all take our ball and leave. That is just understandable frustration speaking. I was there last night returning to that base when Fenris spawned and saw xjammer sitting on the ground unloading on planes spawning. It was infuriating to watch and I had to strafe him from the air on multiple passes as I only had mgs left. Meanwhile he got to sit there and let his AI gunner unload into players who couldn’t see him yet. This was clearly unsportsmanlike behaviour. Whether it results in a ban or not is ultimately up to LG. I personally hope the effect of this discussion is to give people pause and to change their minds before they try something similar. We are all here to enjoy flying simulated air combat... each of us should do our part to maintain that immersion as best we can. 

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52 minutes ago, Manstein16 said:

 

Someone might want to tell the pilots of the U.S. 7th Air Force in the Pacific that. AF sniping, intentional rammings, and suicidal airlandings on U.S. runways by the Japanese were a fact of life. Hopefully that doesn't mean that TAW is going to allow those practices just because they happened in real life.

The distinct difference between reality and game is that they flew during the war to win the war. We fly in game as a part of entertainment, trying to forget about real life trouble.

 

I never had trouble with strafing as it was a valid tactic and for as long as there was another airfield to take-off from it's ok. But we're not discussing strafing at this point. We're talking about intentional landing, parking right next to a spawn point and killing players before they even took controls of their aircraft (not to mention starting the engine). It's an exploit and just like Coldman said, xJammer deserves a permanent ban. No need to get emotional or anything. Just a matter of applying the punishment and moving on.

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25 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

The distinct difference between reality and game is that they flew during the war to win the war. We fly in game as a part of entertainment, trying to forget about real life trouble.

 

I never had trouble with strafing as it was a valid tactic and for as long as there was another airfield to take-off from it's ok. But we're not discussing strafing at this point. We're talking about intentional landing, parking right next to a spawn point and killing players before they even took controls of their aircraft (not to mention starting the engine). It's an exploit and just like Coldman said, xJammer deserves a permanent ban. No need to get emotional or anything. Just a matter of applying the punishment and moving on.

 

So much this.

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56 minutes ago, =BES=Coyote-66 said:

Lol my thoughts exactly.  Let's all get super pissy and take our ball and leave.

 

Seems like we'd rather try to cure a symptom (ban an inividual) instead of the illness (multiple system/rule flaws).  The question I have yet to see answered is how was a single fighter able to defeat ALL AAA on a spawn-able airfield? Nobody can question that this is a flaw in the system that was able to be exploited.

@xJammer, thanks for bringing it to light so it can be fixed for next campaign.

its due to the lowering of aaa skill and its numbers due to all that whining that the aaa is too op on TAW which was [edited]

Now the aaa poses no challange even for single attackers, so the ground attack currently is just boring...

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
Rule 7
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5 hours ago, Operation_Ivy said:

You have many suicide players. You might even consider your early Depot attacks suicidial. VVS has a huge advantage when it comes to pilot attrition. Making it having a bigger impact on winning conditions will be difficult. Maybe you should simply get banned for 12 hours or so when you get killed or captured.

 

Also, while I am not defending his actions at all, threatening to not play on TAW because of it is laughable. Stop trying to pressure the admins with it. 

 

What we do: fly a fairly large flight of bombers flying for 30 minutes to a target, precision bombing if there's no enemy a/c, carpet bombing if met with resistance, then attempt to exfil. What xJammer does: pick a short airfield-to-enemy-airfield route, repeatedly fly it looking for easy kills and ground strafing opportunities, die often and respawn in a +1 plane.

 

I think there's a big difference.

 

Anyhow, regardless of game mechanics, do the admins consider xJammer a credit to the TAW community, or a negative? If a negative, is it worth banning them over this incident? Personally I would say yes -- landing so you can spawn camp is total BS and an absolute abuse.

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2 hours ago, =/Hospiz/=uGryzzli said:

Personally I dont like these type of punishments because this system cannot differenciate between player trying to play fair and failing (sometimes you just get shot down) and yolo flyouts.

 

I understand what you say. But the "time kick" feature is not only to prevent suicide bombers while promoting being more careful with your virtual life; it also encourages teamwork (i.e less il2s going alone to a horde of enemy fighters and angry AA gunners); and last but not least, under a full server it gives ohers chances to join.  On top of all this, it's more realistic than a pilot who just was shot down can`t inmediately take another plane. For instance few days ago i was part of an 8 pilots jabo sweep to Taman depot,  and only 2 of us survived. Why? I shot down a FW; he bailed and as half LW was on us, he inmediately took another plane and joined them, and he shot down 2 of our group. A time kick would have prevented this, imo is really fair.

 

Anyway, this was a suggestion among others regarding wining conditions and team balance.

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I think the right thing to do, before decide to ban or not someone, is to make a rule. Then if the rule is not followed, a ban should be applied. That goes for everything parachute shooting, staying in the field more than 15 sec after being shot down etc.

 

Personally I think that landing in a field at a spawn place is not nice and sporty and should worth of a penalty, as it is to fly over a field and shoot a plane on the leave or landing (my self I never practice that) , but right now there is no rule to forbid that.

 

So probably we should vote for a rule in the beginning and the ban players that they do not follow the rules.

 

tnx

@Daedalos

   

Edited by 335th_GRDaedalos
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13 minutes ago, 335th_GRDaedalos said:

I think the right thing to do, before decide to ban or not someone, is to make a rule. Then if the rule is not followed, a ban should be applied. That goes for everything parachute shooting, staying in the field more than 15 sec after being shot down etc.

 

Personally I think that landing in a field at a spawn place is not nice and sporty and should worth of a penalty, as it is to fly over a field and shoot a plane on the leave or landing (my self I never practice that) , but right now there is no rule to forbid that.

 

So probably we should vote for a rule in the beginning and the ban players that they do not follow the rules.

 

tnx

@Daedalos

   

This is a rational and I believe fair response to the issue. Would just implement a rule to prohibit this further from happening, if said rule is broken again then ban him. As of right now no rules were broken, and I don't believe you should ban somebody for being unsportsmanlike.

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13 hours ago, SCG_Riksen said:

Ok, after this one I'm out ... thanks LG and everyone else for TAW and all the work you do but it is people like xJammer that destroys this community. Some things are just common sense man, and it is obvious that he lacks any ... I mean, cmon, what kinda person would join TAW and start crash landing aircrafts instead of properly landing them because it took him 15 extra seconds to deploy the landing gears? What kind of person would land in an enemy AF and sit there to shoot people spawning? The dude is just an old troll and does not deserve a place in TAW.

 

While a agree with you mate, and this sort of behavior is in my mind unacceptable, the server is set up in such a way that it appeals to both  Simmers and gamers.

Simmers who wish to participate in the most realistic manner possible, and so to such an extent, winning is not the ultimate goal...... but the taking part.

And gamers (XJammer etc), who don't mind exploiting the game to the full to gain maximum points, kills, streak.... some will even die 60 times if it means killing 60 opponents (check the stats and see!!!) to win the map........ not my cup of tea, i have to admit, but there are no rules against it.

So the server admin need to decide....... is this a realistic sim (and adjust it accordingly) or a game to be won at any costs?

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Seems like a simple solution is to this landing and sniping enemy pilots as they spawn is to not allow an aircraft on one team/side to land on an airfield (open or closed for that matter) controlled by the other team/side.

 

Assuming this logic can be scripted - if the aircraft is on the ground within that airfield’s x/y coordinates more than 15 seconds, the pilot is kicked.  

Edited by AKA_Relent

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Banning him sets the precedent, it will be a while before someone else decides to behave in such a way. We cant make the planesets fair, the weapons fair, the maps, fair, but at the very least, we can play/fight fair.

Edited by SYN_Repent
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38 minutes ago, JG5_Schuck said:

 

While a agree with you mate, and this sort of behavior is in my mind unacceptable, the server is set up in such a way that it appeals to both  Simmers and gamers.

Simmers who wish to participate in the most realistic manner possible, and so to such an extent, winning is not the ultimate goal...... but the taking part.

And gamers (XJammer etc), who don't mind exploiting the game to the full to gain maximum points, kills, streak.... some will even die 60 times if it means killing 60 opponents (check the stats and see!!!) to win the map........ not my cup of tea, i have to admit, but there are no rules against it.

So the server admin need to decide....... is this a realistic sim (and adjust it accordingly) or a game to be won at any costs?


Yeah but if doing repetitive suicide runs to deplete targets from AAA is an effective way to win compared to the people that try to fly in a more serious manner then it's a problem for the campaign imho. It doesn't encourage me to fly if I know someone in the opposing team will do much more damage than me and my mates by doing this sort of stuff. It's frustating. The land at the base and spawn kill enemy planes was just too much.

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23 minutes ago, SYN_Repent said:

Banning him sets the precedent, it will be a while before someone else decides to behave in such a way. We cant make the planesets fair, the weapons fair, the maps, fair, but at the very least, we can play/fight fair.

I'll vote with my squad. If they support him gone, so do I. 

 

That said, who exactly defines "fair"?  The most can be said is that xJammer used a long-known exploit in a very unsportsmanlike manner.  I've been around 2 1/2 TAWs and heard of this exploit in comms during my first 1/2 TAW, so yes, it is a long-known exploit.  I also agree that it was very poor sportsmanship - or a lack thereof.

 

Even though I know this is meant to be a community competition, and not treating the opponent in a vitriolic way by employing such exploits is the spirit the majority of players want, I'm starting to get the feeling some of you would be the type to scream "No nut punches!" in an actual street fight. 

 

It's a slippery slope that that leads to increasing calls for more and more restrictions as to what is fair and what's not.  Use a legit tactic that's even slightly frustrating to opponent players? Ban.  Shoot the chute of someone who's known to boil over about getting chute killed? Ban.  Land the wrong way at the end of the sortie? Ban.  Launch a massive raid knowing that the mission timer will end 2 minutes after your team makes their attack? Ban.  Strafe a plane that's got a dead propeller but an obviously still-live pilot? Ban.  Use +1 planes to ram non +1 planes from the sky knowing you'll get it back next round? Ban. Use Nav. lights when in trouble instead of flares to call for help? Ban.  Go on a solo mission that has an almost zero chance of returning from? Ban.  Fly solo at all except for transports? Ban.  The list of nitpicking little things can go on and on...

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21 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Yeah but if doing repetitive suicide runs to deplete targets from AAA is an effective way to win compared to the people that try to fly in a more serious manner then it's a problem for the campaign imho. It doesn't encourage me to fly if I know someone in the opposing team will do much more damage than me and my mates by doing this sort of stuff. It's frustating.

 

Well it was like that in real life as well, so i don't see what's wrong. Everyone has to decide if his pilot life is more important for him or the overall mission goal. I'd even say the average pilot in TaW flies "safer" then the average pilot in WW2, because in WW2 if you got an order, no matter how dangerous, you had to do it. B17 runs into Germany have been utter suicide until the Mustang D was available, the pilots still obeyed.

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5 hours ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Perhaps the rule should be:

If you find and use an exploit, and are found to be using the exploit, then you get a warning.  

If you repeat the exploit after a warning , then you get banned.

 

It will, of course, be on the admins to fix the exploit (if possible) as soon as possible.  

 

Since so many are so interested in yelling louder than they can hear, I'm gonna quote myself.  There is no rule about it on the main page so, THAT should be the FIRST step.  You all can rehash all the other things you want to be considered "fair" ad nauseum later. 

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6 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Well it was like that in real life as well, so i don't see what's wrong. Everyone has to decide if his pilot life is more important for him or the overall mission goal. I'd even say the average pilot in TaW flies "safer" then the average pilot in WW2, because in WW2 if you got an order, no matter how dangerous, you had to do it. B17 runs into Germany have been utter suicide until the Mustang D was available, the pilots still obeyed.


No, this isn't comparable to a conventional bombing without escort. The bomber crews tried to stay alive and used tactics for that. They didn't go dive bombing to cause maximum effect no matter what.

This is similar to a kamikaze attack, which would be appropiate for late war Pacific.

If TAW resorts in this sort of playstyle then it won't be much different than WoL for example. The lack of GPS, the limited planes, the limited number of resources are all meant to make the players fly in a more serious manner. If not doing so is still the most effective way then it defeats the purpose of the campaign design in my opinion.

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