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Tactical Air War

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22 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

No it won't. You can always fly for the other side. You can also simply prevent this issue by allowing a certain numbers of players on one side before the limitation kicks in. 

 

 

There is no single cause explanation as to why VVS did so bad / Axis did so well. There are several factors, i can't stress this enough. Honestly i am a little tired of people saying that their teamwork was the major factor winning when other factors played a bigger role. The new system is flawed. You managed to exploit it better than VVS but you also had the better opportunities.

 

In the end it doesn't matter who had great teamplay and who didn't. We should rather focus on discussing changes because otherwise next campaign will be a major steamroll.

 

Who won this campaign? I think nobody did, because all TAW campaigns since the new system got implemented were boring.  

 

Dude! Who is this guy showing up here with logic and reason! The TAW logic sounds like a guy on DeSherff's Discord channel called Operation_Ivy. 

 

I have to admit that I was one of those folks that though the new code was working correctly but with RED not winning a single map until the last one and then when map #7 was over in less than 48 hours, I knew something was wrong.  If I had to guess, it has something to do with speed at which the map moves after 2hr mission window with the regards to the attacking side.

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You guys can keep arguing for rule changes in the hope it creates a utopia where people select a side/planes they are not familiar with or enjoy playing, just to balance a server. Won’t happen in a highly competitive atmosphere and I’ve seen stuff like this kill servers before. I’ll stick to my belief that overall team balance was inconsequential this campaign until someone shows me facts otherwise.

 

The server mechanics need a tweak, sure they will get one next campaign. But saying the blue side “exploited flaws” is like saying the same about a boardgame player “exploiting” trades/good rolls/etc in order to win a game of Monopoly by placing hotels on the highest priced property. It’s called understanding the game mechanics, developing a plan, and executing. I see no reason VVS couldn’t do it maps 1-6. Only reason TAW should make changes next campaign is to keep things fresh/interesting.

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OK. Let me break this down.  The condition for winning (either side) in such a steamroll fashion was built in to the rules from Day 1. 

All it took was someone (not me) to read the manual, do the math and figure out killing the depots straight away would create an irreversible collapse for the other team.  

 

Myself and about 10 others happened to come along (pretty much by random luck),  join up with the man with the plan, be willing to pull 2 epic  8 to 10-hour sessions within the span of 48 hours (kill both map 7 depots and one map 8 depot), and put things in the state they currently are.   The main reason we didn't push through and endure the Blue resistance that was starting to form and try to 100% BOTH depots on map 8 just like we did with map 7 was because we realized it was the last map of this TAW cycle. 

That's not bragging from me.  That is recognition of a game mechanic needs to be readjusted so neither side can just sneeze in the general direction of the opponent's house of cards.   

 

There will always be trickery and searches for loopholes in rules to exploit.  There will always be someone analytical minded who can figure these things out.  There will always be someone who says "Why didn't I see that?", after it's too late.   The only thing the TAW staff can really do about it is work on refining the rules until the exploits get harder and harder to find and have less of a drastic impact when they are found.   

 

 

Ya know one thing that might help is a slight resupply/repair buff calculated per minute for the time a team is outnumbered by more than + 2 opposing players. It would be added to the next mission.  If a team is massively outnumbered, further increase the understaffed team's buff.  If a team is on the server unopposed, increase the absent team's resupply/repair buff even more.  That would make teams consider more deeply if they want to win the map or gang up and go turkey shooting.

Edited by Mobile_BBQ
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19 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

 

Myself and about 10 others happened to come along (pretty much by random luck),  join up with the man with the plan,

 

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Putting this out early, had my fill of U.S. time zone bizarro world.

 

Contents: A Pig, Miniskirts, Lingerie, A Circus, Mucho Profanity, Organization, Titanium Buildings, A Suicide Jockey, Bikinis, Landing Gear Shit Show, Miracles.

Custom skins have full swastikas.

 

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, StG77_HvB said:

Putting this out early, had my fill of U.S. time zone bizarro world.

 

Contents: A Pig, Miniskirts, Lingerie, A Circus, Mucho Profanity, Organization, Titanium Buildings, A Suicide Jockey, Bikinis, Landing Gear Shit Show, Miracles.

Custom skins have full swastikas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Best flight sim channel on Youtube!

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1 hour ago, StG77_HvB said:

Putting this out early, had my fill of U.S. time zone bizarro world.

 

Contents: A Pig, Miniskirts, Lingerie, A Circus, Mucho Profanity, Organization, Titanium Buildings, A Suicide Jockey, Bikinis, Landing Gear Shit Show, Miracles.

Custom skins have full swastikas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

10 points to Gryffindor and a perfect score from the Swedish judge!

Great video dude.

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11 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

pull 2 epic  8 to 10-hour sessions within the span of 48 hours (kill both map 7 depots and one map 8 depot), and put things in the state they currently are.  

Yes, and you guys did it when the campaign was already over and most pilots had lost interest in it. 

 

Any analysis beyond map #5 with a 5-0 for BLUE (when this edition ended for most pilots) doesn´t show the essence of what happened during this edition.

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I just wanted to say that this is my first time participating and I've really enjoyed flying TAW.  Found the mission planner on the web page very useful.  Thank you for all the hard work put into this event.:good:

Edited by US103_Furlow

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1 hour ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Yes, and you guys did it when the campaign was already over and most pilots had lost interest in it. 

 

Any analysis beyond map #5 with a 5-0 for BLUE (when this edition ended for most pilots) doesn´t show the essence of what happened during this edition.

I dont understand why You try all the time to down play the efforts of those who put much hearth and work in securing the objectives during current TAW.

 

Also for the 100th time - the balance was not different than 95+% of TAW campaigns, and was much better than most of those campaigns.

 

Also if you check the graphs of any other server the avarage player number for blue and red is even more in favour of the blue there ( for example WOL etc. where its 21,7 to 18,05 for the last month and 22 to 18 for last 2 weeks wheras for current taw its 13,7 to 11,1 and for last 2 weeks (so more than half of current taw) its 13,4 to 12,4 ) and I'm giving my opinion in addition to above hard facts without any bias or prediciton to any of the teams and especially red team as the player who mostly flys red (i like the challange  of the weeker side) with only 2 campaigns flown as blue .

 

P.S.

TAW TEAM THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YET ANOTHER SUPERB CAMPAIGN AND FOR YOUR WORK!!!

The TAW is for me the best ww2 exeprience avialable.

Keep up the good work and i'm looking forward for next campaign. (and dont listen to the ones who seam to complain no matter what )

 

Edited by Carl_infar
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1 hour ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Yes, and you guys did it when the campaign was already over and most pilots had lost interest in it. 

 

Any analysis beyond map #5 with a 5-0 for BLUE (when this edition ended for most pilots) doesn´t show the essence of what happened during this edition.

Well, sorry for being so late in getting into IL2 BoX series and just recently learning about TAW. 

 

That doesn't diminish the efforts we put in. And we did expose the FACT that destroying both depots quickly will steamroll the other team with little added allied input. That's an issue that needs to be changed. 

 

Besides, if most other Axis pilots lost interest in it, and you still obviously have yours...  doesn't that make your arguing that their stance of indifference at this point is a more valid position than your own position of obvious continued interest rather invalid?  Straw man.... Paper tiger?  I'm not sure which term is correct.    

 

That's o.k.  I'll be sure to be very present from the beginning on the next TAW cycle. ;)

 

 

Edited by Mobile_BBQ
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3 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

I dont understand why You try all the time to down play the efforts of those who put much hearth and work in securing the objectives during current TAW.

 

Also for the 100th time - the balance was not different than 95+% of TAW campaigns, and was much better than most of those campaigns.

 

Also if you check the graphs of any other server the avarage player number for blue and red is even more in favour of the blue there ( for example WOL etc. where its 21,7 to 18,05 for the last month and 22 to 18 for last 2 weeks wheras for current taw its 13,7 to 11,1 and for last 2 weeks (so more than half of current taw) its 13,4 to 12,4 ) and I'm giving my opinion in addition to above hard facts without any bias or prediciton to any of the teams and especially red team as the player who mostly flys red (i like the challange  of the weeker side) with only 2 campaigns flown as blue .

Boring, already discussed for three pages.

 

@Mobile_BBQ you got my message all wrong. Bad interpretation of what i said.

Edited by ECV56_Chimango
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`Thanks guys for all your hard work into making this TAW server run and to the people who took part .

Thank you once again . I hope it returns .

 

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34 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

O.k. Maybe I did. I'm still a bit new around here so maybe I missed something. 


Yes, i'm glad you discovered TAW and never meant to diminish your efforts at all -which were really good- i just said that when you accomplished that, it already was a situation really different from maps #1=>#6. This TAW edition had winning conditions very sensitive to player numbers, with so much importance given to bombing depots, and a side has twice or three times more bomber pilots with bigger bombloads not only registered but also during missions...well, there you go.

 

Defending depots it's almost impossible as we can all agree, but also and most important, probably the most boring and uninteresting task to do...i don´t think many would like to put so much attention in 1 hour CAP every time. Let's hope next edition doesn´t focus on this so much and finds a balance between depots and tank columns.

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9 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 


Yes, i'm glad you discovered TAW and never meant to diminish your efforts at all -which were really good- i just said that when you accomplished that, it already was a situation really different from maps #1=>#6. This TAW edition had winning conditions very sensitive to player numbers, with so much importance given to bombing depots, and a side has twice or three times more bomber pilots with bigger bombloads not only registered but also during missions...well, there you go.

 

Defending depots it's almost impossible as we can all agree, but also and most important, probably the most boring and uninteresting task to do...i don´t think many would like to put so much attention in 1 hour CAP every time. Let's hope next edition doesn´t focus on this so much and finds a balance between depots and tank columns.

 

I didn't necessarily post to inflate my efforts, nor did I feel they were being diminished.  Rather, I misunderstood what you were saying.  I thought you were trying to divert from the issue of how much effect depot wrecking has had on one mission and now soon to be two.  I really can't speak of the whole campaign except that I joined around the end of map 5 and at one point there were 80 Axis to 4 Allies.  When Axis wants to win, all they really need to do is fully close out 84/84 the server player slots.  It seems the only reason they don't is because that will eliminate the possibility of shooting someone down.  Obviously, if Allies closed out the server player slots they too would leave room for a few baby seals.  Can't really blame either side there. If only server technology could handle infinite player counts in the same instance...   

 

And.... as an aside.  Why is the campaign series best-out-of 8 instead of best-out-of 9? 

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On 7/18/2018 at 2:23 AM, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

Who won this campaign? I think nobody did, because all TAW campaigns since the new system got implemented were boring.  

 

9 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 

Defending depots it's almost impossible as we can all agree, but also and most important, probably the most boring and uninteresting task to do...i don´t think many would like to put so much attention in 1 hour CAP every time. Let's hope next edition doesn´t focus on this so much and finds a balance between depots and tank columns.

 

Maybe it's boring if you are fighter pilot. For bomber it certainly was not. And while I understand that we are all doing this for fun it's also good to remember that fighters exist to a) shoot down enemy bombers and b) protect own bombers for enemy fighters, not to go into thrilling dogfights against enemy fighters.

 

And I am not saying that this was optimal. Some tweakig at least would be good. But from my perspective it was not boring. There was a good reason for long bombing trips to enemy depots and feeling that by doing so you are actually affecting something.

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2 hours ago, LLv44_Mprhead said:

Maybe it's boring if you are fighter pilot. For bomber it certainly was not.


Fighter pilot? I'm a multirole pilot  just like most of our 666°GIAP squad -more experienced in fighter and sturmo role as you can check on our performance, but we can level bomb too-  and yet, defending the main depots -rear of the map- is the most dull task for any of us, specially under current graphic engine where you can not spot an enemy plane beyond 9/10km,  so any useful interceptions before they drop bombs is very rare leaving you with the fact that it was too much waste of time for nothing but a meaningless kill.

So again i share the opinion of most people through the last 5 pages:  i hope depots importance are less critical next campaign, or at least more balanced between them and tank columns spawning, so we don´t reach that "point of no return" so fast.  We love TAW and want to make it interesting...and last 2 editions were not as good as other. I remember 11th edition was great. Each map fought hard to the end, with balanced quorums al edition, and a final outcome of 4-3 to red and almost a final draw cause LW came close to win last map. You know why? teams were balanced all edition, and both sides had good squads joined also by lone wolves willing to accomplish useful tasks.

 

2 hours ago, LLv44_Mprhead said:

And while I understand that we are all doing this for fun it's also good to remember that fighters exist to a) shoot down enemy bombers and b) protect own bombers for enemy fighters, not to go into thrilling dogfights against enemy fighters.


Thanks for explaining to us the reasons behind the existence of fighters; for the last 12 years i've been blind till now, thanks for  your enlightened discovery :rofl: But if you think those are the only two roles for fighters in TAW, you are kind of clueless my friend...and also funnily contradictory, cause you say fighters are not for "going into dogfights against enemy fighters"...really? And what do you think a fighter protects his friendly bomber from? And also, have you ever heard the term "Fighter sweep" or "Freig Jagd"?  See, you miss a lot...not to mention helping attack planes with AAA in tank columns, or doing recon missions like the ones against hidden supply columns, etc. You don´t seem to know much about fighter deployment.
 

 

Edited by ECV56_Chimango
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4 hours ago, LLv44_Mprhead said:

Maybe it's boring if you are fighter pilot. For bomber it certainly was not. And while I understand that we are all doing this for fun it's also good to remember that fighters exist to a) shoot down enemy bombers and b) protect own bombers for enemy fighters, not to go into thrilling dogfights against enemy fighters.

 

You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about how much fun each sortie is but how boring the campaign on a broad spectrum was. A quick 6-0 is not really exciting is it?.

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45 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about how much fun each sortie is but how boring the campaign on a broad spectrum was. A quick 6-0 is not really exciting is it?.

 

Okey, yes. This I agree on.

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3 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

where you can not spot an enemy plane beyond 9/10km,  s

Totally agree on this really needs to be fixed . ~The rendering is way out i don`t even think we are picking up airframes at that distance also ground targets . seem to disappear then reappear .  You def need a wingman to fly with in this game . 

 

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5 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 


Fighter pilot? I'm a multirole pilot  just like most of our 666°GIAP squad -more experienced in fighter and sturmo role as you can check on our performance, but we can level bomb too-  and yet, defending the main depots -rear of the map- is the most dull task for any of us, specially under current graphic engine where you can not spot an enemy plane beyond 9/10km,  so any useful interceptions before they drop bombs is very rare leaving you with the fact that it was too much waste of time for nothing but a meaningless kill.
 


 

 

If you are so bored you can go and fly WOL insted of complaining that you was to bored to concentrate on objectives and win ;)

 

anyway maybe i'm getting old but in real life flying with mark 1 eyball at ranges of beyond the 10 -12 km i can only spot big jets(which are much bigger than the 2win engine bombers in il2) and only viewed from above or below them . Except of course the aircraft that are contrailing where the contrials can be seen from  further away.

 

The small single engine  GA planes (most of them in white livery which is contrasting to the  most ground colors and not painted in camos) are for me impossible to see byond that range and much more often much closer depending on weather, contrast to the background (sky, clouds or ground), their relative position (above, bleow, same alt...)  

 

In the game the view range is more or less realistic (meybe could be only slightly better) in my opinion with contrails visible from bigger distance than those 10 km.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Carl_infar
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I live but 4 kilometers by the crow flies from a small acrobatics airfield and often  sit outside with a beer and watch them practice Baring in mind 4 k I find it hard to spot them most of the time regardless of the time of day  so spotting aircraft at 10 k in my mind would be near impossible in the real world unless it was a galaxy or such .  

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Why are we debating render distance here? There is a proper post in the forum for that. You guys will understand the issue with the spotting distance when me262 comes out I am sure of that :p

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1 hour ago, Carl_infar said:

If you are so bored you can go and fly WOL insted of complaining that you was to bored to concentrate on objectives and win ;)

 

OMG what a straw man you are becoming! 

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1 hour ago, =FSB=Man-Yac said:

Why are we debating render distance here? There is a proper post in the forum for that. You guys will understand the issue with the spotting distance when me262 comes out I am sure of that :p

 

Nah.  Most will be complaining how the 262 doesn't turn like a 109, how short the flight time is, how vulnerable it is landing and how much work it really takes to get it to top speed.

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2 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

Nah.  Most will be complaining how the 262 doesn't turn like a 109, how short the flight time is, how vulnerable it is landing and how much work it really takes to get it to top speed.


"Stupid vulching P-51's just ruin it!  We need to put immunity zones around the Luftwaffe fields to stop this..it just ruins the experience" 

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In this TAW I have flown little, and almost always bomber, I have made many flights to the depots, and I have never been shot down before releasing, even when there were several fighters in the release area (Unoparauno y Navarro por ejemplo jejeje), so if I agree that something has to be done about it.
This is added to the disproportionate importance that the state of the depots has in the dynamics of the columns, making an early attack from either side on the depots, rendering them practically useless, decanting the map to either side.
Once the method has been discovered, either something is changed or the next TAW will be more or less the same, one way or the other.
Trying to balance the number of pilots is very complicated because each one flies at a different time, I think the only solution would be to extend the registration period so that the squadrons could change and balance, although that would not be a guarantee that in many cases there were unbalanced quorums.
In my opinion the main interest of TAW is the excitement, the competitiveness, and the possibility that the work with the squad will have any effect on the development of the campaign. If for one or the other olive tree this disappears, it doesn't matter who wins, the campaign will lose interest.

 

Edited by HR_Eldamar
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It seems to me that coordinated groups have the most impact. Most groups should know at what time of day/timezones they fly. Might I suggest adding this as a selectable option when registering, i.e. 'EU evening' or such, and then showing the numbers grouped in this way in pre-registration, so that we can attempt to actually match numbers all throughout the day?

 

This, in addition to a longer pre-registration period, could really help balance numbers IMO and avoid the situation when one group is just winning the map by themselves overnight with no opposition. 

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Interestingly enough, I don't think we're going to be seeing an end to map #8 anytime soon.  There seems to be enough Axis interest to push back against the Allied advance, and enough Allied presence at times to deliver the death stroke, but it doesn't seem to happen.  I think people on both sides don't want TAW to be over so soon for fear it won't return.  Also, I think that quite a few pilots would rather play the "risk vs. reward" style of TAW than the "CallofAirplanes" style of other servers. 

The Campaign may have been a win for Axis, but the after party could possibly be something worth keeping an eye on...

 

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Well I would love to be able to get into TAW to help, but after this wonderful patch, every time I give him to create the plane, either in online or offline the game is closed and he sends me to the desk. I don't know if it happens to anyone else.

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13 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

Interestingly enough, I don't think we're going to be seeing an end to map #8 anytime soon.  There seems to be enough Axis interest to push back against the Allied advance, and enough Allied presence at times to deliver the death stroke, but it doesn't seem to happen.  I think people on both sides don't want TAW to be over so soon for fear it won't return.  Also, I think that quite a few pilots would rather play the "risk vs. reward" style of TAW than the "CallofAirplanes" style of other servers. 

The Campaign may have been a win for Axis, but the after party could possibly be something worth keeping an eye on...

 


Many of yesterdays missions were basically searching for a fight. The blue fighters tried to avoid a decisive fight for the most part. We tried to force them into one but it ended up in a game of chicken. Kinda boring. I hope it ends soon.

Btw: The Ship/warehouse mechanic deserves a look as well. Those things are there for one single mission and impact the campaign pretty decently. But one mission to destroy a target of the size of 2-4 depots is a bit much to ask for. The attacking team has basically to drop everything else. And if the server isn't populated nobody has the chance to do anything about it.

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6 hours ago, =FEW=Hauggy said:

This was legit the worst TAW campaign ever.

says the one who flown something like 7 hours only during all 8 maps of current campaign.

 

TAW team as for me thank You very much for Your efforts and  yet again superb fun which I had like during all other campaigns.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Carl_infar
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10 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

says the one who flown something like 7 hours only during all 8 maps of current campaign.

 

And you don't think there could be a reason for that? xD What do you expect? Are only those who fly a ton, i.e. those having fun, allowed to voice displeasure with the last campaign?  Also a way to avoid criticism, lol.

Edited by JG4_Etherlight
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Maybe this has been covered earlier but just in case; weather is a bit funny with this last map. Temperatures should really not be much under 0 degrees even in winter time in that area and more interestingly we now can have - 21 degree temperature and rain. At least here in Finland if the temperature is that cold, it does not rain... or maybe to be more precise there is no snowfall. There should really be nothing dropping from sky and certainly not water at those temperatures (well maybe planes).

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