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Tactical Air War

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This was the first campaign I flew the Ju52 and I must admit, it can have a devastating effect on the map. I don't have any screen shots of the map before and after, but when you capture an airfield with 60 paratroopers you not only capture the airfield but wipe out the nearby defensive positions and any enemy tanks as the whole area becomes blue when the map flips. It's way smarter for the Blues to use these aircraft to capture airfields rather than waste blood and treasure hitting tank columns and defensive positions.

Also, can the Reds see the drop zones? I can't recall if they can or not. Catching Ju52s dropping paras would be a fighter pilots wet dream, but if the Reds can't see the drop zones on the map then CAPing them would require a lot of guess work and be pretty ineffective.

As for the lack of AAA, I had to plan the flights very carefully to avoid it all. Some of the sorties were quite challenging with defensive positions all around the drop zone.

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22 hours ago, Darbzy said:

Some highlights from the latest TAW campaign

Awesome vid as always Darbzy. 

 

I really need to raise my multi-engine game. I feel like it really is the way to impact on map results.

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21 minutes ago, Darbzy said:

I can't recall if they can or not.


You cant. You have to guess where they are.

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1 minute ago, DerSheriff said:


You cant. You have to guess where they are.

 

I thought so. I understand that in real life the enemy wouldn't know which area you are using as a DZ, but perhaps to make it fairer the Reds should see a few 'potential DZs' - with one being the actual one - so they can try and patrol them. I'm sure if there was a para threat in real life any commander worth half his salt would find potential DZs and defend and/or patrol them.

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Currently when the reds concentrated on depots and shut them within few hours and they are winning current map.

 

Yea, so all the whining that conditions are biased, the players blance is so bad (although it was much better currently than many other campaigns I remeber and didnt changed for worse (except the last campaign which in that respect was significantly different to all others) - so no significant change here)…

 

Form what i noticed some plyers are whining no matter the side they play, and for them its always the machine and conditions and not the man and play style (concetration of efforts on objectives instead of pursuing the streaks…) 

 

 

Edited by Carl_infar

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It's thanks to an insane 8-hour effort by a ragtag group of a handful of players that it was managed, and in part just through luck. If anything it does show how madly overpowered supply depot destruction is though, and how impossible they are to defend even though several 109s and 190s were engaging the bombers.

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But seeing now the reds in a map where they are on the "offense"...we might want to take a look on that mechanic.
It might be too pronounced especially in conjunction with the depots. If then player numbers are favoring a team its  a piece of cake to roflstomp the remaining tanks.

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6 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

Currently when the reds concentrated on depots and shut them within few hours and they are winning current map.

 

Yea, so all the whining that conditions are biased, the players blance is so bad (although it was much better currently than many other campaigns I remeber and didnt changed for worse (except the last campaign which in that respect was significantly different to all others) - so no significant change here)…

 

Form what i noticed some plyers are whining no matter the side they play, and for them its always the machine and conditions and not the man and play style (concetration of efforts on objectives instead of pursuing the streaks…) 

 

 

 

The only thing that this map shows is that red/blue only needs to destroy depots when they are on an offensive map. And like i said previously already, it is impossible to defend depots. 

 

I think the TAW changes (defensive, counter offensive etc.) did more harm than good to the game. It would probably be easier to revert this change instead of trying to fine tune it.

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1 hour ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

 And like i said previously already, it is impossible to defend depots. 

 

 

And why is it a bad thing?

 

should be the columns be possible to defend, or the defence positions or airfields?

 

all in all those are the targets which one side must destroy and the other defend so it all comes down to resources assigned to each task and decisions made by each team of what to defend and attack.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

Currently when the reds concentrated on depots and shut them within few hours and they are winning current map.

 

Yea, so all the whining that conditions are biased, the players blance is so bad

Sure, and constant team balance 2:1 or more in favour of RED team with organized groups for the first time in the campaign has nothing to do with it. Very strange, we can concentrate in something thanks to numbers, due to this we are wining for the first time, but you say numbers have nothing to do with it. :crazy:

 

 

Edited by ECV56_Chimango
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4 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

And why is it a bad thing?

 

should be the columns be possible to defend, or the defence positions or airfields?

 

all in all those are the targets which one side must destroy and the other defend so it all comes down to resources assigned to each task and decisions made by each team of what to defend and attack.

 

 

 

Disproportional resources though. You might need 10 fighters around a depot to stop 2-3 bombers without escort, and considering the impact destruction of depots has on the game it's simply not sensible.

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1 hour ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Sure, and constant team balance 2:1 or more in favour of RED team with organized groups for the first time in the campaign has nothing to do with it. Very strange, we can concentrate in something thanks to numbers, due to this we are wining for the first time, but you say numbers have nothing to do with it. :crazy:

 

 

Could also be that the numbers imbalance is due to blue player not being so eager to fly when they only have three airfields left. Atleast that´s what held me off from flying many time this TAW.

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Hi! I am very noob but I am thinking about jumping into this server. It looks quite more complex than WoL so I am a bit afraid that I do not know how to navigate without GPS or know what to defend/attack.

 

Any tips for a beginner?

 

Thanks!

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13 minutes ago, Al-Azraq said:

Hi! I am very noob but I am thinking about jumping into this server. It looks quite more complex than WoL so I am a bit afraid that I do not know how to navigate without GPS or know what to defend/attack.

 

Any tips for a beginner?

 

Thanks!

Just use Google or YouTube search. I typed "il2bos how to navigate".

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, =L/R=Mad_Mikhael said:

Just use Google or YouTube search. I typed "il2bos how to navigate".

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks! I will give it a try to the server, looks great.

 

Can also someone explain me the meaning of the available planes chart in my profile? I have read the manual but it is not fully clear to me. If I use all these planes, I won't be able to fly the current mission anymore, right?

 

UzHQTu6.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Al-Azraq said:

If I use all these planes, I won't be able to fly the current mission anymore, right?

 

Yes, but after a mission, you will receive "(...) one basic aircraft marked as +1 after each mission if he doesn’t have any of such type".

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16 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Sure, and constant team balance 2:1 or more in favour of RED team with organized groups for the first time in the campaign has nothing to do with it. Very strange, we can concentrate in something thanks to numbers, due to this we are wining for the first time, but you say numbers have nothing to do with it. :crazy:

 

 

its not completly true. 

The main attack on the depots was done within time frame (eu morning to early noon) when trought out the entire campaign Red tend to have bigger numbers. Not just the yesterdays map as can be easyly seen on the graphs. Similar situation we have also today when during the morning one blue depo was shut. Anyway You dont even need bigger numbers to shut it . What You need is the coordinated effort on the most important for each situation objective. (where if needed local superioirty can be easyly won - which for destruction of the depos is not even needed if one doesnt care for the personal streak)

 

So it's about the priorities and focusing of effort (team work in general). If this tactic would be followed since the beginning by the red the campaign would look much different.

 

Anyway currectly blue should continue the tactic that brought them the win (shut the depos as primary target and later switch to others)

Edited by Carl_infar
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5 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

when trought out the entire campaign Red tend to have bigger numbers

Absolutely not true, reds never had a decisive quorum advantage prior to maps #7 and #8.  If there was any "advantage", it was during few moments and without many pilots. We'll never agree on this fact, which is basic to discuss anything beyond it.
 

All the rest you say, any experienced guy will agree and it's known for ages: is not about planeset or any of those things most people complaint about; it's all about achieving air superiority on the most important objectives, with coordinated pilots/groups. The side with better teams and/or organized pilots will get the victory; but for this it's essential not to have a big imbalance in teams

 

So IMO most important aspects to have in mind for future editions are not planeset or anything like that, but first of all:

 

1. making some kind of system to prevent team imbalance higher than 1,5:1 . When people gets outnumbered big time map after map and realize they can´t win, they lose interest. It's been proven now and before.
 

2. making sure the wining conditions are balanced between the importance of depots and tank columns.

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5 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Absolutely not true, reds never had a decisive quorum advantage prior to maps #7 and #8.  If there was any "advantage", it was during few moments and without many pilots. We'll never agree on this fact, which is basic to discuss anything beyond it.
 

All the rest you say, any experienced guy will agree and it's known for ages: is not about planeset or any of those things most people complaint about; it's all about achieving air superiority on the most important objectives, with coordinated pilots/groups. The side with better teams and/or organized pilots will get the victory; but for this it's essential not to have a big imbalance in teams

 

So IMO most important aspects to have in mind for future editions are not planeset or anything like that, but first of all:

 

1. making some kind of system to prevent team imbalance higher than 1,5:1 . When people gets outnumbered big time map after map and realize they can´t win, they lose interest. It's been proven now and before.
 

2. making sure the wining conditions are balanced between the importance of depots and tank columns.

 

I find it very hard to believe that team balance was the main factor for VVS losing this campaign, especially seeing how quickly they won the last map.  But, since you’re so inflexible, I’ll try pretending you’re right and that the Russians started winning after their player numbers improved this last map. Then where the heck were all these players for map 1-6??? So, with your logic/“solution”, if you cap sides and many Red players only decide to come fly late in the campaign, then that will lock out a lot of people that want to fly.

 

You can’t just admit you were largely wrong about why LW did so well this campaign? There’s no way you will concede that the Blue pilots had a better strategy, understanding of primary TAW targets, and better execution (plus a few lucky breaks)?  You seriously think VVS couldn’t have won this campaign if they had beeen more organized and focused? Seems like a huge coincidence that a bunch of posts were openly made about strategy/teamwork late into map 6, then all of a sudden Reds pulls a win with similar tactics.... 

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8 minutes ago, HenHawk said:

So, with your logic/“solution”, if you cap sides and many Red players only decide to come fly late in the campaign, then that will lock out a lot of people that want to fly.

 

No it won't. You can always fly for the other side. You can also simply prevent this issue by allowing a certain numbers of players on one side before the limitation kicks in. 

 

12 minutes ago, HenHawk said:

You can’t just admit you were largely wrong about why LW did so well this campaign? There’s no way you will concede that the Blue pilots had a better strategy, understanding of primary TAW targets, and better execution (plus a few lucky breaks)?  You seriously think VVS couldn’t have won this campaign if they had beeen more organized and focused? Seems like a huge coincidence that a bunch of posts were openly made about strategy/teamwork late into map 6, then all of a sudden Reds pulls a win with similar tactics.... 

 

There is no single cause explanation as to why VVS did so bad / Axis did so well. There are several factors, i can't stress this enough. Honestly i am a little tired of people saying that their teamwork was the major factor winning when other factors played a bigger role. The new system is flawed. You managed to exploit it better than VVS but you also had the better opportunities.

 

In the end it doesn't matter who had great teamplay and who didn't. We should rather focus on discussing changes because otherwise next campaign will be a major steamroll.

 

Who won this campaign? I think nobody did, because all TAW campaigns since the new system got implemented were boring.  

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27 minutes ago, HenHawk said:

Then where the heck were all these players for map 1-6???

Well, I don't know about the other 7 - 10 (I don't remember exactly) players, but I just got to TAW around the end of map 5.  I was so happy to be teaming with experienced players and learning how to Peshka that I just went along on every raid we could put together for about 10 hours.  We had fun and told epic jokes on the flights there (and back).

 

27 minutes ago, HenHawk said:

There’s no way you will concede that the Blue pilots had a better strategy, understanding of primary TAW targets, and better execution (plus a few lucky breaks)?  

Sorry to butt in on this - because seriously I don't know - has Blue rolled any of these 8 maps in a little less than 24 hours?

 

What I will agree to however is that Depots need to be reworked.  I mean we pulled the lynch pin out and just by the other Reds showing up and playing their normal sessions, Blue's wheels fell right off.   As fun as it was to go on a mad spree bombing the depots, I don't think it makes for good battles to steamroll that powerfully.

 

 

Edited by Mobile_BBQ

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25 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

No it won't. You can always fly for the other side. You can also simply prevent this issue by allowing a certain numbers of players on one side before the limitation kicks in. 
 

There is no single cause explanation as to why VVS did so bad / Axis did so well. There are several factors, i can't stress this enough. Honestly i am a little tired of people saying that their teamwork was the major factor winning when other factors played a bigger role. The new system is flawed. You managed to exploit it better than VVS but you also had the better opportunities.

 

In the end it doesn't matter who had great teamplay and who didn't. We should rather focus on discussing changes because otherwise next campaign will be a major steamroll.

I have to fully agree with Ivy here. Henhawk, i have written many times my opinion regarding the outcome of this edition, i never said numbers was the only one -but i can't let you and Infar pretend they were OK cause that's pure BS, a bit dishonest i think actually- and I have given credit to what LW did also. So please, read carefully previous posts, and let's stop this silly arguement which leads nowhere by now...we are starting to repeat ourselves like parrots. I'll just stop here.

All i care about now, is we have more balanced teams and winning conditions next edition.

 

S!

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7 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

All i care about now, is we have more balanced teams and winning conditions next edition.

 

S!

 

Sorry to butt in again, but I partially agree with this statement. Balanced victory conditions - yes.  Balanced teams - meh. 

 

If this server was for tangible real-world prizes - not just bragging rights - then, team balance would be a must.  Once you add the element(s) of 24/7 server operation and the axiom of "You have to sleep sometime." into the mix team balance is pretty much moot - even if the server reserves 50/50 slots for teams or kicks the 1 or 2 or 20 extra pilots bolstering one side.  I mean what is going to fix this? Having to apply for a specific time slot to play so the admins can schedule even numbered matches?

As far as things go now, there is an ebb and flow as to what times of day which team has numerical superiority and what times of day both teams are even.  I fly this server because I like it.  If I'm logged in and outnumbered, then it's up to me if I want to risk my earned plane set or stick with the +1 planes.  If I'm on the stronger side, then I chalk it up to good fortune.

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22 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

No it won't. You can always fly for the other side. You can also simply prevent this issue by allowing a certain numbers of players on one side before the limitation kicks in. 

 

 

There is no single cause explanation as to why VVS did so bad / Axis did so well. There are several factors, i can't stress this enough. Honestly i am a little tired of people saying that their teamwork was the major factor winning when other factors played a bigger role. The new system is flawed. You managed to exploit it better than VVS but you also had the better opportunities.

 

In the end it doesn't matter who had great teamplay and who didn't. We should rather focus on discussing changes because otherwise next campaign will be a major steamroll.

 

Who won this campaign? I think nobody did, because all TAW campaigns since the new system got implemented were boring.  

 

Dude! Who is this guy showing up here with logic and reason! The TAW logic sounds like a guy on DeSherff's Discord channel called Operation_Ivy. 

 

I have to admit that I was one of those folks that though the new code was working correctly but with RED not winning a single map until the last one and then when map #7 was over in less than 48 hours, I knew something was wrong.  If I had to guess, it has something to do with speed at which the map moves after 2hr mission window with the regards to the attacking side.

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You guys can keep arguing for rule changes in the hope it creates a utopia where people select a side/planes they are not familiar with or enjoy playing, just to balance a server. Won’t happen in a highly competitive atmosphere and I’ve seen stuff like this kill servers before. I’ll stick to my belief that overall team balance was inconsequential this campaign until someone shows me facts otherwise.

 

The server mechanics need a tweak, sure they will get one next campaign. But saying the blue side “exploited flaws” is like saying the same about a boardgame player “exploiting” trades/good rolls/etc in order to win a game of Monopoly by placing hotels on the highest priced property. It’s called understanding the game mechanics, developing a plan, and executing. I see no reason VVS couldn’t do it maps 1-6. Only reason TAW should make changes next campaign is to keep things fresh/interesting.

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OK. Let me break this down.  The condition for winning (either side) in such a steamroll fashion was built in to the rules from Day 1. 

All it took was someone (not me) to read the manual, do the math and figure out killing the depots straight away would create an irreversible collapse for the other team.  

 

Myself and about 10 others happened to come along (pretty much by random luck),  join up with the man with the plan, be willing to pull 2 epic  8 to 10-hour sessions within the span of 48 hours (kill both map 7 depots and one map 8 depot), and put things in the state they currently are.   The main reason we didn't push through and endure the Blue resistance that was starting to form and try to 100% BOTH depots on map 8 just like we did with map 7 was because we realized it was the last map of this TAW cycle. 

That's not bragging from me.  That is recognition of a game mechanic needs to be readjusted so neither side can just sneeze in the general direction of the opponent's house of cards.   

 

There will always be trickery and searches for loopholes in rules to exploit.  There will always be someone analytical minded who can figure these things out.  There will always be someone who says "Why didn't I see that?", after it's too late.   The only thing the TAW staff can really do about it is work on refining the rules until the exploits get harder and harder to find and have less of a drastic impact when they are found.   

 

 

Ya know one thing that might help is a slight resupply/repair buff calculated per minute for the time a team is outnumbered by more than + 2 opposing players. It would be added to the next mission.  If a team is massively outnumbered, further increase the understaffed team's buff.  If a team is on the server unopposed, increase the absent team's resupply/repair buff even more.  That would make teams consider more deeply if they want to win the map or gang up and go turkey shooting.

Edited by Mobile_BBQ
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19 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

 

Myself and about 10 others happened to come along (pretty much by random luck),  join up with the man with the plan,

 

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Putting this out early, had my fill of U.S. time zone bizarro world.

 

Contents: A Pig, Miniskirts, Lingerie, A Circus, Mucho Profanity, Organization, Titanium Buildings, A Suicide Jockey, Bikinis, Landing Gear Shit Show, Miracles.

Custom skins have full swastikas.

 

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, StG77_HvB said:

Putting this out early, had my fill of U.S. time zone bizarro world.

 

Contents: A Pig, Miniskirts, Lingerie, A Circus, Mucho Profanity, Organization, Titanium Buildings, A Suicide Jockey, Bikinis, Landing Gear Shit Show, Miracles.

Custom skins have full swastikas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Best flight sim channel on Youtube!

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1 hour ago, StG77_HvB said:

Putting this out early, had my fill of U.S. time zone bizarro world.

 

Contents: A Pig, Miniskirts, Lingerie, A Circus, Mucho Profanity, Organization, Titanium Buildings, A Suicide Jockey, Bikinis, Landing Gear Shit Show, Miracles.

Custom skins have full swastikas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

10 points to Gryffindor and a perfect score from the Swedish judge!

Great video dude.

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11 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

pull 2 epic  8 to 10-hour sessions within the span of 48 hours (kill both map 7 depots and one map 8 depot), and put things in the state they currently are.  

Yes, and you guys did it when the campaign was already over and most pilots had lost interest in it. 

 

Any analysis beyond map #5 with a 5-0 for BLUE (when this edition ended for most pilots) doesn´t show the essence of what happened during this edition.

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I just wanted to say that this is my first time participating and I've really enjoyed flying TAW.  Found the mission planner on the web page very useful.  Thank you for all the hard work put into this event.:good:

Edited by US103_Furlow

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1 hour ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Yes, and you guys did it when the campaign was already over and most pilots had lost interest in it. 

 

Any analysis beyond map #5 with a 5-0 for BLUE (when this edition ended for most pilots) doesn´t show the essence of what happened during this edition.

I dont understand why You try all the time to down play the efforts of those who put much hearth and work in securing the objectives during current TAW.

 

Also for the 100th time - the balance was not different than 95+% of TAW campaigns, and was much better than most of those campaigns.

 

Also if you check the graphs of any other server the avarage player number for blue and red is even more in favour of the blue there ( for example WOL etc. where its 21,7 to 18,05 for the last month and 22 to 18 for last 2 weeks wheras for current taw its 13,7 to 11,1 and for last 2 weeks (so more than half of current taw) its 13,4 to 12,4 ) and I'm giving my opinion in addition to above hard facts without any bias or prediciton to any of the teams and especially red team as the player who mostly flys red (i like the challange  of the weeker side) with only 2 campaigns flown as blue .

 

P.S.

TAW TEAM THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YET ANOTHER SUPERB CAMPAIGN AND FOR YOUR WORK!!!

The TAW is for me the best ww2 exeprience avialable.

Keep up the good work and i'm looking forward for next campaign. (and dont listen to the ones who seam to complain no matter what )

 

Edited by Carl_infar
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1 hour ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Yes, and you guys did it when the campaign was already over and most pilots had lost interest in it. 

 

Any analysis beyond map #5 with a 5-0 for BLUE (when this edition ended for most pilots) doesn´t show the essence of what happened during this edition.

Well, sorry for being so late in getting into IL2 BoX series and just recently learning about TAW. 

 

That doesn't diminish the efforts we put in. And we did expose the FACT that destroying both depots quickly will steamroll the other team with little added allied input. That's an issue that needs to be changed. 

 

Besides, if most other Axis pilots lost interest in it, and you still obviously have yours...  doesn't that make your arguing that their stance of indifference at this point is a more valid position than your own position of obvious continued interest rather invalid?  Straw man.... Paper tiger?  I'm not sure which term is correct.    

 

That's o.k.  I'll be sure to be very present from the beginning on the next TAW cycle. ;)

 

 

Edited by Mobile_BBQ
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3 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

I dont understand why You try all the time to down play the efforts of those who put much hearth and work in securing the objectives during current TAW.

 

Also for the 100th time - the balance was not different than 95+% of TAW campaigns, and was much better than most of those campaigns.

 

Also if you check the graphs of any other server the avarage player number for blue and red is even more in favour of the blue there ( for example WOL etc. where its 21,7 to 18,05 for the last month and 22 to 18 for last 2 weeks wheras for current taw its 13,7 to 11,1 and for last 2 weeks (so more than half of current taw) its 13,4 to 12,4 ) and I'm giving my opinion in addition to above hard facts without any bias or prediciton to any of the teams and especially red team as the player who mostly flys red (i like the challange  of the weeker side) with only 2 campaigns flown as blue .

Boring, already discussed for three pages.

 

@Mobile_BBQ you got my message all wrong. Bad interpretation of what i said.

Edited by ECV56_Chimango
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`Thanks guys for all your hard work into making this TAW server run and to the people who took part .

Thank you once again . I hope it returns .

 

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2 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

@Mobile_BBQ you got my message all wrong. Bad interpretation of what i said.

 

O.k. Maybe I did. I'm still a bit new around here so maybe I missed something. 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

O.k. Maybe I did. I'm still a bit new around here so maybe I missed something. 


Yes, i'm glad you discovered TAW and never meant to diminish your efforts at all -which were really good- i just said that when you accomplished that, it already was a situation really different from maps #1=>#6. This TAW edition had winning conditions very sensitive to player numbers, with so much importance given to bombing depots, and a side has twice or three times more bomber pilots with bigger bombloads not only registered but also during missions...well, there you go.

 

Defending depots it's almost impossible as we can all agree, but also and most important, probably the most boring and uninteresting task to do...i don´t think many would like to put so much attention in 1 hour CAP every time. Let's hope next edition doesn´t focus on this so much and finds a balance between depots and tank columns.

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9 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 


Yes, i'm glad you discovered TAW and never meant to diminish your efforts at all -which were really good- i just said that when you accomplished that, it already was a situation really different from maps #1=>#6. This TAW edition had winning conditions very sensitive to player numbers, with so much importance given to bombing depots, and a side has twice or three times more bomber pilots with bigger bombloads not only registered but also during missions...well, there you go.

 

Defending depots it's almost impossible as we can all agree, but also and most important, probably the most boring and uninteresting task to do...i don´t think many would like to put so much attention in 1 hour CAP every time. Let's hope next edition doesn´t focus on this so much and finds a balance between depots and tank columns.

 

I didn't necessarily post to inflate my efforts, nor did I feel they were being diminished.  Rather, I misunderstood what you were saying.  I thought you were trying to divert from the issue of how much effect depot wrecking has had on one mission and now soon to be two.  I really can't speak of the whole campaign except that I joined around the end of map 5 and at one point there were 80 Axis to 4 Allies.  When Axis wants to win, all they really need to do is fully close out 84/84 the server player slots.  It seems the only reason they don't is because that will eliminate the possibility of shooting someone down.  Obviously, if Allies closed out the server player slots they too would leave room for a few baby seals.  Can't really blame either side there. If only server technology could handle infinite player counts in the same instance...   

 

And.... as an aside.  Why is the campaign series best-out-of 8 instead of best-out-of 9? 

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