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Tactical Air War

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56 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 

 TAW 11 was good and almost ended in a draw with teams balanced all maps. 

TAW 11 actually ended in a draw (4 maps won by each side) it almost ended with blue win. 

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3 hours ago, DerSheriff said:

I would like to ask the blue team with all seriousness why they advance so quickly in this campaign compared to past ones. Furthermore I would like to know why the aircraft and pilot losses are now reversed.
Why is that? Do the reds have less good players? Do the blues have better players now? More teamwork? Why? I have my thoughts, but I want to hear first from other players what they think and then I share my thoughts.

 

From what i see, i think the Russians have this almost suicide mentality,

I've seen:

.Damaged Russians still dog fighting, not even thinking about RTBing,

.Russians attacking a tank column even when they have a 6

.Attacking tank columns without any high cover

.Most Russians I've seen are flying alone, poor teamwork in the dogfight

 

While I've seen a lot more communication on the blue side for this campaign,

 

And you might call this "hartmanning" But a lot of blues care for there virtual life, and would rather get home alive, then do a suicide run into a  heavily infested tank columns with absolutely NO air cover. While the Russians on the other hand seem to not give a damn for there virtual life. Maybe this is whats contributing to such the high number of Allied aircraft and pilot losses?

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11 minutes ago, SCG_DR1FT3R said:

And you might call this "hartmanning" But a lot of blues care for there virtual life, and would rather get home alive, then do a suicide run into a  heavily infested tank columns with absolutely NO air cover. While the Russians on the other hand seem to not give a damn for there virtual life. Maybe this is whats contributing to such the high number of Allied aircraft and pilot losses?


I don't call that anything. I was one of the guys at the end of the last campaign which were advocating a more sensible approach. But in the past the blue team had PLENTY of guys doing just the suicide runs you mentioned. Most of them weren't organized. I assume they aren't gone. My current assessment is that the blue team has just the majority of organzied large active groups. And they make the difference. Some larger teams on the red side seem more or less inactive (HYDRA has 2-3 active right now, from usually 5-7). I don't see the 72s flying very often, I rarly see the ART guys flying. 
I personally fly less because the world cup is going and the weather is unusually nice at the moment.

So I guess its a mix out of more teamplay (more groups) at the blue side and less teamplay(less groups) on the red side. Which is fine. Its a public server. And I am impressed by the level of pressure which i have never felt flying the red side so far. But looking forward to the next maps. World cup is over next week after all 😄

Edited by DerSheriff
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28 minutes ago, SCG_DR1FT3R said:

.Damaged Russians still dog fighting, not even thinking about RTBing,

.Russians attacking a tank column even when they have a 6

.Attacking tank columns without any high cover

.Most Russians I've seen are flying alone, poor teamwork in the dogfight

 

I don't know if you have flown both sides regularly but these behaviors are common on both sides.

 

There is this myth that, exaggerated, "all noobs fly blue" etc. etc. when in fact you find behavior that is linked to that of being a "noob" on VVS as much as on Axis. 

 

There is no monocausal explanation. It is a result of many factors playing in favor of Blue this time. Map 1 and 2 are usually hard for VVS and this time Blue got an even bigger advantage on the later one. The numerical advantage was still too significant on map 3 and map 4, when during the later stages of the map the numbers finally got even, bugs (artillery spawns to deactivate airfields) and questionable game design (tank spawns instantly deactivating airfields, Warehouses as big as Depots only stay for 1 round = very little chance to destroy it) destroyed any hope of the VVS to possibly even win the map. 

 

I think we are looking at a change in the meta. I might be wrong but it could be that LW finally managed to get their head wrapped around on how to use their Bombers. Something that was painfully lacking the last few campaigns.

Edited by Operatsiya_Ivy
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15 minutes ago, SCG_DR1FT3R said:

 

From what i see, i think the Russians have this almost suicide mentality,

I've seen:

.Damaged Russians still dog fighting, not even thinking about RTBing,

.Russians attacking a tank column even when they have a 6

.Attacking tank columns without any high cover

.Most Russians I've seen are flying alone, poor teamwork in the dogfight

 

While I've seen a lot more communication on the blue side for this campaign,

 

And you might call this "hartmanning" But a lot of blues care for there virtual life, and would rather get home alive, then do a suicide run into a  heavily infested tank columns with absolutely NO air cover. While the Russians on the other hand seem to not give a damn for there virtual life. Maybe this is whats contributing to such the high number of Allied aircraft and pilot losses? 

 

Hahaha, this post is identical to those that were written a couple of campaigns ago but talking about the blue side.
- The red pilots continue to fight even damaged, because it is impossible to escape from a blue plane for speed even when the plane is in good condition
-I assure you that attacks on columns and positions are not usually done alone and the communication of the red side, in the times that I have flown is as fluid as it has always been.
- The teamwork is exactly the same that has helped us to win the other campaigns since the pilots and squadrons are the same, although in a lesser number
- I do not know very well how you can know the communication on the red side if you fly in blue
- As for the difference of planes and lost pilots is not much less big, if you review any of the previous TAW you will see that it has been much higher at other times.

I think Derseriff is right. The ability to advance from the columns. The difference between the ability to destroy depots between red and blue bombers and the ability to conquer the aerodromes on the blue side, together with a considerable number of pilots advantage of the blue side is distorting this campaign

 

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Main thing I’ve seen this campaign from LW perspective which is different than previous ones is a much higher focus to destroy depots in particular. That has a huge impact. Also, there seems to be a general better understanding and willingness to engage primary/critical targets and ignore secondary ones. And if a tank column has been mostly ignored, usually a couple blue flyers will at least destroy the trucks in it so it won’t move far. Finding people willing to provide fighter escort has been easier, too, as well as groups of bombers/strike aircraft. Many times I’ve played when the LW has been at least slightly outnumbered, but I haven’t felt like I’ve been as disadvantaged as before. I really think the messages saying which targets have been hit by friendlies has helped to at least a moderate degree, as the communcation in chat and general voice comms channels is still low. Having a lot of experienced squads flying together in LW in this campaign is clearly a big factor, too.

 

Sadly, I also think a lot of negative comments from a few vocal Russian flyers, similar to those in this thread, have caused some problems with balance and general morale for the team. Red side seems discouraged and less willing to strike targets in an organized way than before. Pretty much every time I’ve played this campaign I see  VVS flyers log into the server, usually when map 1st starts, then make comments like “look at the teams, TAW is broken now, it’s favored for the Germans”, etc., then promptly log out (sometimes with their squad members). Last sorties I flew, the map just started, it was 9:1 in favor of Germans initially, and many Russians coming on the server quit before even spawning in. They were sure to make comments about never wanting to return to TAW, it’s been broken since 6/2018, RIP, etc, etc. Incidentally, after 30 minutes the Russians outnumbered the Germans by about 1.5:1, but unfortunately most were not organized and failed to capitalize on their numbers with any significant impact on that map. 

 

It has been shown many times in TAW that you don’t need numbers to win a map, an excess of pilots can even hurt a team with losses sometimes. That said, yes, TAW is not perfect, it could use some more balance tweaks and I agree with Sheriff’s observation about there being a “point of no return” which should be addressed. I’ve been on the other side of this many times in past campaigns. While it is fun defending the last airfield or two with bitter anger, it sucks always knowing it’s futile.

Edited by HenHawk
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On 7/4/2018 at 3:07 PM, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

It is very good that the depots are important. However, as we experience at the moment on map#4, the current system establishes a "point of no return". Once a certain side lost a couple of cities/airfields there is no chance for them to make a comeback. While the way to the Depots is shortened for one side, the other has to fly longer etc etc. 

I am not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing. It might be a design choice. However it doesn't add to an exciting experience necessarily.

 

2 hours ago, DerSheriff said:

That is a game design choice. I would argue that leads to a "point of no return" mechanic. As soon as a critical number of airfields are down, the additional tank columns are hard to destroy. The depots for the attacking team are further and further away while the depots of the defending team get closer.

 

16 minutes ago, HenHawk said:

Sheriff’s observation about there being a “point of no return”

 

😢

Edited by Operatsiya_Ivy
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In any case: the difference in the number of pilots is something that changes in each campaign and is not worrisome. But the existence of that point of no return that Derseriff mentions can end up making the maps stop having interest once it is evident that it has been surpassed.
Maybe it could be compensated by making the columns on both sides advance less the further away the supplies have, that is, the deptots, which on the other hand is strictly historical.

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15 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

 

 

😢

 

Haha, I begrudgingly give you original credit putting the idea out there and into simple terms (even though you slaughtered my F2 the other day while I was trying to chase a PE2 away from a target I was fond of protecting) 

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I think the issue is a lot easier than what people pretend it is.

 

I found both teams to be superbly balanced this time around - blue fighters were actually a challenge!  Used to be that they wouldn't even bother to engage the pe2, even if you go lonely, unless there are several blues.

 

Let me recall the current map history:

- It was around balanced with red tanks challenging Skvorin / Safronov and the blue tanks going for one of the cities.

- Suddenly in the span of just 2 maps the red depots went from 30/70% damage to 100/100% damage

- From what Kanton said before, that means the red tanks would have halved spawn rate, and on top there would be 30% penalty to all supply missions and column sizes. The latter only happens if both of the depots are down.

- The nightmare began, with few red tanks, and 1-3 blue columns every map. Blues could defend and had the advantage. We lost most cities,  Safro and Pesko got captured.

- Around Monday or so I saw the Sado depot come back online for a short time at 70% damage, the Mal depot did not ever respawn?

- Blue tanks rolled over the red map completely.

 

So as far as I understand:

- Partial depot damage = full tanks but fewer spawns

- Both depots destroyed = 1/2 tank spawns, tank columns at 70% strength, supply missions / convoys / trains at 70% effectiveness.

 

I think it is obvious why the red got streamrolled. I tried high alt bombing the blue depots, but about half the time I did not get to come back as blues would defend it...

 

Hats off to the dedicated altitude bombing of the blues. I didn't see it, but killing nearly full depot in a single mission is impressive!

Edited by JaffaCake
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7 minutes ago, JaffaCake said:

I think the issue is a lot easier than what people pretend it is.

 

-snip-

 

I agree, though the other factors matter as well.

 

The thing is that VVS is in fact trying to defend the depots as well but the bigger bomb load and bigger numbers are making it quite impossible to stop them before they drop their bombs. Hence my proposal a couple of pages back to give VVS (or both) an edge by giving them better chances to stop a bomber before it drops its bomb load. Otherwise you won't see many depots during the campaign if the meta truly changed like i think it did.

 

@HenHawk already looking forward to cover your bomb runs in the next campaign again! ;)

Edited by Operatsiya_Ivy
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1 minute ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

I agree, though the other factors matter as well.

 

The thing is that VVS is in fact trying to defend the depots as well but the bigger bomb load and bigger numbers are making it quite impossible to stop them before they drop their bombs. Hence my proposal a couple of pages back to give VVS (or both) an edge by giving them better chances to stop a bomber before it drops its bomb load. Otherwise you won't see many depots during the campaign if the meta truly changed like i think it did.

 

 

I hardly ever had anyone try to escort pe2's to blue depots. It just feels like reds do not know how critical they are to winning the mission. At most I'd get another 2 pe2's to go together so flak doesn't get us. But if we meet a blue escort on the way? Usually a fighter is not a big deal - pe is tough and the gunner does magic, but it results in the guy calling in his buddies to lift off near the depot to cover it. Actually that is the reason why the southern depot had more damage - its further away from the AF so easier target to kill. We got it to 70% at some point I think!

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Feel free to ask me any time. 

 

The thing though is that most people are doing something when they play on the server. They usually can't just drop everything and go to escort you because of their fuel or need to go back to base without having a combat sortie. I often see people ask for cover when they are 1-2 minutes out, giving escort fighters who aren't by chance in the area not enough time to react. 

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6 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 

Zf77aXo.png

 

 

 

THAT'S A FRENCH TONKS! 

 

 

Edited by Cpt_Siddy

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4 hours ago, HenHawk said:

It has been shown many times in TAW that you don’t need numbers to win a map

 

 

I agree, but partially. When difference is 1.5:1 and even a bit more, it goes OK. When it constantly goes beyond 2:1 it gets really difficult to win, you can hold on for a while...but not win. 

 

Situations like this, were very common during this edition.

wKqZNpu.jpg

 

 

 

BTW, rigth now - Difference 4:1...so LW can just go and do a huge damage on the map. And like this, most edition. Sometimes even blue pilots were joking it
was like a COOP style campaign.
K5RgBFJ.jpg

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I think that maybe each side should just have 2 columns spread out over the map every mission so the missions themselves are not imbalanced. It´s neither fun to go up against 3 tank columns without having any yourself or just having to protect 3 tank columns while the enemy has no way to gain ground anyway. 
Just a thought I guess.

:salute:

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2 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 

 

I agree, but partially. When difference is 1.5:1 and even a bit more, it goes OK. When it constantly goes beyond 2:1 it gets really difficult to win, you can hold on for a while...but not win. 

 

Situations like this, were very common during this edition

 

And I partially agree with you. Yes, it is very difficult for a team to do anything important or much less win a mission if teams are highly lopsided. But, I disagree with the idea that this campaign was for the majority of the time or at decisive times, that imbalanced.  Maybe at sporadic times or when a map is pretty much lost (ie- now) teams got fairly ugly, but it didn’t seem like an overall issue VVS couldn’t deal with.

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When the enemy has 10-15 every night and you have 8 (typical) the problem is way more than the numbers. The problem is that somehow in that environment you have to take out at least 1, and frequently 2 full tank columns. This means really in order to do that everyone must shoot tanks, which is why in some cases the aircraft losses are so high. You can't have high cover or there's not enough people. You need to get in, make an attack, hope you get out and then do it all over again. 

 

It's easy to tell if a campaign is unbalanced, you just look at the stats. Numbers of tanks destroyed? Aircraft and pilot losses? Number of maps won? Notice that this time all of those have been consistently held by a german margin, in some cases quite large. Another telling sign is the maps where Russians are supposed to have an advantage, but still get steamrolled. A competitive campaign tends to swing back and forth either way, which is nothing close to what we have now. It's important as if it's totally lopsided no one wins, because as a game, it's not very fun playing on a side that gets consistently run over. Players start doing something else, and then it gets boring on the other side and they stop logging in. Everyone loses. I don't know what the answer is for this because it's not the fault of LG admins. I've learned that the registration site is also useless as it has no relationship to what the actual numbers in game will be. Consistently it'll show large german advantages but they don't show up. For me it's frustrating that sides can't be balanced more effectively or even predicted, because I feel that in order to make it more fair I need to join the short side. Russian always looks short so I always end up russian, even though I'd like to do german/russian 50/50 split. 

 

In short, this is a severe problem and I honestly don't know what to do about it, short of having a campaign set up rather like our sunday campaign where the sides are intentionally matched at least somewhat evenly. 

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8 hours ago, SCG_DR1FT3R said:

I've seen:

.Damaged Russians still dog fighting, not even thinking about RTBing,

 

 

 

This is very true. A major contribute is the fighting style due to performance. It's hard to run away in a P-40, Lagg, Mig or Yak1. We get a loooooot of those before we get a more even match in performance. Even then it's a bit of a hike to get an LA5 where as 109s are 109s. This is a big reason I enjoy the early war stuff so much. There is a more natural balance between opposition. The E7 - P40 match is fun, even an F2. In Cliffs of Dover being 1940 there is a more natural technological balance too which I enjoyed.

 

Against an F4 the gap becomes quite the interesting challenge. It's arguably the peak 109 model but the G2 is a bit faster. Against the early lineup it's a bit of a cakewalk to pilot an F4 vs any pairing. The F4 is competitive across a larger portion of the war compared to a Mig or Lagg. It's a fight between 1941 vs 1930's aircraft right on the edge of obsolete for the first 4 maps. Even in map 5 now it is a slog of three aircraft before you get a Yak1. For arguments sake if I wanted to pad some stats and this was my bag selection: 1xMig3 - 2xLagg - 1xYak1 < 2xF2 - 2xF4 - 1XG2

 

If it's historical I don't mind.

 

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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All those posts that this campaign is so super heavy unballanced as for players numbers …

 

I see that people have very short memory,

 

 With exception of the previous TAW campaign (TAW 12?) where due to all those new planes there were more red players, on all other campaigns there were signifcantly more blue players than red.

 

Current campaign is quite good balanced  as for players numbers with as shown on graphs which i posted earlier. (like always there are lot of people who are just blind for hard facts)

 

Only in previous campaign  the red side was constantly winning  the maps trough conquering the territory. in all other previous TAW campaigns that i took part in (mostly red side - taw 11 which ended in draw and current taw 13 are the only campaigns that i fly blue) blue side was pushing the front but was loosing each time due too attrition of tanks, planes or pilots. 

 

The reasons for current blue steam roll are :

1) the long requested by blue side impact of strategic bombing as to equal the 23mm guns of red side was finally introduced - and its being properly followed by blues who now correctly heavily bomb airfields and depots in addition to front line targets and at the same time are covering their own depots 

2) the blue fly significantly more organized than before (squadrons or not)

 

And again the current  red to blue player ratio is much more ballanced  than the previous taw campaigns (Except TAW12) and its not a game changing factor in current outcome, because this variable (red to blue player ratio) didn't changed for worse but for better (except taw12), opposed to other things that changed

 

Funny thing now when the atrition is equal or even grater on red side, no one speaks about the biased red planes and fragile blue ones (as it was constantly the case during previous taw caps  when the red side was winning by attrition of blue side assets...)

 

 

 just to add my 2cents

 

 

Edited by Carl_infar
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8 hours ago, HenHawk said:

But, I disagree with the idea that this campaign was for the majority of the time or at decisive times, that imbalanced.  Maybe at sporadic times or when a map is pretty much lost (ie- now) teams got fairly ugly, but it didn’t seem like an overall issue VVS couldn’t deal with.

Then we will never agree on this. During map #2 i wrote here that with these conditions and specially if the current team quorums keep like this, blue side will finally win this TAW; was i wrong? Also when i saw the team lineup inmediately after previous TAW edition just started (map #1) i said to my team: "this will be a walk through for the red team"; and it was. See? I'm always right  :biggrin:
 

Now seriousy, with current TAW conditions -that "slight advantage" given to LW according to Kathon's words- numbers were really important, and it just required a couple of map loads to put red side to the defensive reaching that point of not return mentioned by many already. We didn´t have the numbers to do all or at least most important tasks; defend depots, defend airfields, look for Ju-52s; kill hordes of blue tank columns; bomb enemy depots... too many things, all important, we didn´t have the numbers. It only required a couple of 3:1 -and even more- imbalanced map loads like those we had during the first 4 maps (being #4 the only kind of "balanced") to have LW doing a lot of damage where we could not recover from even if teams were more "balanced" afterwards. Again, with consistent 36-7, or 50-15, or that kind of numbers we had it was practically impossible to win a map under current TAW conditions. As it has been said, this edition red side lacked of large organized groups like blue side had. If you add to that the good use LW did of their bombers...well, you have this outcome: 5-0 due to three factors:
 

.Important team imbalance
.Winning conditions in favour of blue side

.Lack of large organized groups on red side; opposite to blues who did really well and flew more organized
 

Anyway, TAW already over, so congrats to blue side for winning it. You did a good use of your advantage and flew really well!.
 

For next TAW @=LG=Kathon would be nice to have something in between the middle regarding winning conditions; i think @HR_Eldamar idea es really good:

"But the existence of that point of no return that Dersheriff mentions can end up making the maps stop having interest once it is evident that it has been surpassed.
Maybe it could be compensated by making the columns on both sides advance less the further away the supplies have, that is, the depots, which on the other hand is strictly historical."

 

 

Edited by ECV56_Chimango
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A few of my observations:
Blue players are more spread among various time zones and due to that have a constant presence on the server. So it's easy to get 7:1 or 10:3 situations, while in prime time numbers are close to equal.
A lot of Russian players for whatever reason are on the blue side, which also expurgates the afore mentioned situation. This is clearly evident in the afternoon hours Moscow time. Especially if there are "easy to hit" red ground targets - blue team suddenly becomes stacked to absurd levels.
A lot of red players seem demoralized by the blue steamroller and simply don't play. Even on the Russian part of the forum there are such outcries and that means a lot.

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I find it rather amusing that some are calling one team having a near constant numerical advantage 'good balance.' Go back and look at that histograph and you will see that the blue line is almost always above the red lines. Perhaps I'm deranged but when one side has that kind of advantage the balance isn't good. There are other factors at play here, sure, but you can't honestly say this isn't a problem.

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17 hours ago, HR_Eldamar said:

In any case: the difference in the number of pilots is something that changes in each campaign and is not worrisome. But the existence of that point of no return that Derseriff mentions can end up making the maps stop having interest once it is evident that it has been surpassed.
Maybe it could be compensated by making the columns on both sides advance less the further away the supplies have, that is, the deptots, which on the other hand is strictly historical.

 

This is a good suggestion, actually. Although the "winning" side still can wreak havoc with bombing raids, at least they won't automatically steamroll absolutely everything with their tanks. Looking at it realistically this is a dumb thing of course, because advancing 50 - 100 km when on an "attack" map means the supply lines barely even come into play, but for gameplay this'd make a world of difference. Would let the team losing ground at least standa a chance to make a comeback with tank, plane and pilot kills, even if that chance isn't fantastic. Far better than nothing.

 

 

17 hours ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

The thing though is that most people are doing something when they play on the server. They usually can't just drop everything and go to escort you because of their fuel or need to go back to base without having a combat sortie. I often see people ask for cover when they are 1-2 minutes out, giving escort fighters who aren't by chance in the area not enough time to react. 

 

This. Ask us 10-15 minutes ahead of the raid. We might be 50 km away from the nearest airfield and it's not like we can drop everything immediately and come assist. And especially at the start of a round it can be more important to make a rapid first strike on a closer target, as well as denying the enemy a good first strike option, so for the first 15-30 minutes many players will be "taken".

 

 

9 hours ago, No.615_Kai_Lae said:

When the enemy has 10-15 every night and you have 8 (typical) the problem is way more than the numbers. The problem is that somehow in that environment you have to take out at least 1, and frequently 2 full tank columns. This means really in order to do that everyone must shoot tanks, which is why in some cases the aircraft losses are so high. You can't have high cover or there's not enough people. You need to get in, make an attack, hope you get out and then do it all over again. 

 

Yeah, this is the constant issue. Heck, doesn't even matter when during EU mornings the reds often outnumber the blues. What can 10 reds vs 3 blues do, when 10 players barely are enough to halt the advance of the blue tanks? We may destroy a tank column. Maybe even two. But we can't help our own tanks advance because there's no time to actually destroy any defenses, so our tank columns will automatically lose, and the next round it's the same all over again: Two new blue tank columns that need to be destroyed, so at best we can try to maintain the status quo.

 

Then more blue players come online, and all possibilities for the reds to even maintain said status quo goes out of the window, because now it's no longer possible to spare enough players for ground attack.

 

Actually sparing people to attack supply depots then is basically doomed, because who can afford to have half the team (5 guys) away for an hour on a depot strike when they are needed immediately near the own airfields not to lose them in an instant?

Edited by Inkoslav
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deleted - I got to try the 110g with add guns today:)

Edited by Carl_infar

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6 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Then we will never agree on this. During map #2 i wrote here that with these conditions and specially if the current team quorums keep like this, blue side will finally win this TAW; was i wrong? Also when i saw the team lineup inmediately after previous TAW edition just started (map #1) i said to my team: "this will be a walk through for the red team"; and it was. See? I'm always right  :biggrin:
 

Now seriousy, with current TAW conditions -that "slight advantage" given to LW according to Kathon's words- numbers were really important, and it just required a couple of map loads to put red side to the defensive reaching that point of not return mentioned by many already. We didn´t have the numbers to do all or at least most important tasks; defend depots, defend airfields, look for Ju-52s; kill hordes of blue tank columns; bomb enemy depots... too many things, all important, we didn´t have the numbers. It only required a couple of 3:1 -and even more- imbalanced map loads like those we had during the first 4 maps (being #4 the only kind of "balanced") to have LW doing a lot of damage where we could not recover from even if teams were more "balanced" afterwards. Again, with consistent 36-7, or 50-15, or that kind of numbers we had it was practically impossible to win a map under current TAW conditions. As it has been said, this edition red side lacked of large organized groups like blue side had. If you add to that the good use LW did of their bombers...well, you have this outcome: 5-0 due to three factors:
 

.Important team imbalance
.Winning conditions in favour of blue side

.Lack of large organized groups on red side; opposite to blues who did really well and flew more organized
 

Anyway, TAW already over, so congrats to blue side for winning it. You did a good use of your advantage and flew really well!.
 

For next TAW @=LG=Kathon would be nice to have something in between the middle regarding winning conditions; i think @HR_Eldamar idea es really good:

"But the existence of that point of no return that Dersheriff mentions can end up making the maps stop having interest once it is evident that it has been surpassed.
Maybe it could be compensated by making the columns on both sides advance less the further away the supplies have, that is, the depots, which on the other hand is strictly historical."

 

 

 

I really don’t think we’re that far apart in opinions. I’d just encourage you to put aside your specific experiences with team numbers and look at the overall server trends posted in this thread. Heck, I think I saw you on the server yesterday when I flew a sortie or two and VVS were outnumbering LW at that point.

 

I agree it must be difficult covering the normal multiple targets + possible paradrops.  Keep in mind in past campaigns I’ve seen hordes of red tank columns and LW airfields immediately shutdown by a close column, too. Minus paradrops, game dynamics are the same for both sides, but I get it is always going to be tougher when outnumbered.

 

Balance should always be examined to keep things fun, I think the TAW crew does a great and highly considerate job of doing that after each campaign. Maybe things were tipped too far this time in favor LW and your suggestions seem reasonable to look at.

 

But, what I hope isn’t taken away from is how well many LW pilots performed and worked together this campaign to (finally) achieve a win. In many past campaigns there were some pretty lopsided advantages for the VVS, but the virtual pilots for the Russians still have to be said to have earned every win in the end. This is because, regardless of variables, TAW is still arguably the highest level of competition Il2 has to offer.

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Might be too early to ask this..

Any plans on having Bodenplatte seasons? 

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16 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=34811&amp;name=JG4_RuckZuck

 

Please ground the above player for few days for friendly fire so he'll remeber to id the targets

I am very sorry for my mistake. I apologized right after that. You flew with your BF-110 at the clouds underneath where Pe-2 reported
has been. As I said, I'm sorry.

Edited by JG4_RuckZuck
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29 minutes ago, HenHawk said:

 

 

 

But, what I hope isn’t taken away from is how well many LW pilots performed and worked together this campaign to (finally) achieve a win. In many past campaigns there were some pretty lopsided advantages for the VVS, but the virtual pilots for the Russians still have to be said to have earned every win in the end. This is because, regardless of variables, TAW is still arguably the highest level of competition Il2 has to offer.

 

Of course nobody doubts the good work of the blue team in this TAW, in other campaigns they have flown in red and they have done it just as well.
The work of the developers is not criticized either, and we are more than grateful to them for offering us the opportunity to compete.
There are simply a number of factors that have come together to make the campaign less exciting than the previous ones.
the numerical advantage, the concurrence of squadrons organized in the blue team, the capacity of the blue strategic bombers, and those advantages that, as Kathon said, the blue team has in this edition have added up to unbalance the balance too much.
I, for my part, will continue to do my bit for the victory of the red team, although I don't like Kuban's maps very much.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

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42 minutes ago, HenHawk said:

Balance should always be examined to keep things fun, I think the TAW crew does a great and highly considerate job of doing that after each campaign. Maybe things were tipped too far this time in favor LW and your suggestions seem reasonable to look at.

 

5 minutes ago, HR_Eldamar said:

The work of the developers is not criticized either, and we are more than grateful to them for offering us the opportunity to compete.

 

Honestly, without taking away any credit that the TAW admins rightfully deserve, i feel like there is a lot of work piled up when it comes to balance currently. The people responsible for it apparently don't have enough time to deal with it, which is completely understandable considering that this is not their job and they probably don't even get enough donations to cover their expenses. You can criticize someone without being ungrateful. (Historical) balancing is a very demanding and ever changing factor which demands a lot of attention to get it done right. The steamroll wins for either side sadly make up for the majority of the TAW campaigns as far as i can remember.

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11 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

 

Honestly, without taking away any credit that the TAW admins rightfully deserve, i feel like there is a lot of work piled up when it comes to balance currently. The people responsible for it apparently don't have enough time to deal with it, which is completely understandable considering that this is not their job and they probably don't even get enough donations to cover their expenses. You can criticize someone without being ungrateful. (Historical) balancing is a very demanding and ever changing factor which demands a lot of attention to get it done right. The steamroll wins for either side sadly make up for the majority of the TAW campaigns as far as i can remember. 

In my country we say," It never rains to everyone's taste". We each contribute our own suggestions and our own point of view, and I think I'm not mistaken in saying that the purpose of all of us is to make the campaign more interesting.
We may not agree on many things, but what is undeniable is that this is the most immersive campaign that can be flown today.

 

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3 minutes ago, HR_Eldamar said:

In my country we say," It never rains to everyone's taste".

 

It has little to do with taste when nearly all campaigns are lopsided. Nobody is questioning that TAW is the best server out there, but that doesn't mean it can't get any better.

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3 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

It has little to do with taste when nearly all campaigns are lopsided. Nobody is questioning that TAW is the best server out there, but that doesn't mean it can't get any better. 

Obviously, but it is more than likely that the changes you like are not to the liking of others, which for you is an improvement for others will be a step backwards.

 

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BTW, Carl_Infar you were wrong about TAW 11th edition, i've just checked just in case, but i remembered it well cause it was my first participation. TAW 11th was a RED victory 4-3 with a draw on final map, the most balanced TAW so far IMO.

So, just in case anyone is interested:

 

TAW 11 - RED VICTORY (ended Dec 2017)

TAW 12 - DRAW (ended Feb 2018) => BOK planes introduced
TAW 13 - RED VICTORY (ended May 2018)
TAW 14 - BLUE VICTORY (current)

 

It would be nice if admins have TAW history from previous editions add it to main page like ADW had. But of course, it's work, and it's easier to ask it than to do it...so just a suggestion, sorry.

 

***
PS. @HenHawk yes, we agree almost in everything; but not regarding team balance, and that graph shown is irrelevant really. If you entered yesterday when reds outnumbered blue, it was by a little margin and it was one of those very sporadic scenarios during this edition; also was while map was already doomed, and even if we were let's say 15-8 in our favour is not enough, 15 pilots is too little on this edition,  to kill all tanks, stop enemy bombers, protect our defenses, etc. This has been explained before.

 

 

Edited by ECV56_Chimango

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2 hours ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

Map#1 in a nutshell:



 

 

I think I watched that video a dozen times and I laughed on everysingle one :lol::lol::lol:

 

Only wish the russians would go down that easily ingame.... still funny though lmao

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Red lost this because most of the people that were keen on bombing depots flew Blue this round, nothing more and nothing less. 

 

The usual crew that i flew with and bombed depots flew on Blue. This paired with the better equipment in blue to bomb depots with and the outcome is just inevitability. 

Nothing to do with player numbers, as the numbers were, as many pointed out, better than in other TAW's, and those TAW's were not so lopsided. 

 

The importance of depots with their impact on the rest of the map has been cranked to 11, once the depots is nuked, it takes, 15 missions to re spawn, partially, and nuked to the dust in a mission or two. This created scenario where rest of the VVS team had to run as fast as they could just to stay still. Killing as much as three blue tank columns in one map only to have new tanks spawns next map just instantly closing the airfields. While the Axis side could do all the thing they wanted now that depots were done. 

 

I inflicted single handed , alone, without any escort  somewhere around 40% of total damage on northern depot last round. Yet i could not for the life of me convince anyone else flying at the same time to go do a depots run (there were few exceptions from the US crew), even after i cleared all AAA from northern one. This can be attributed to perhaps a large ignorance of the importance of depots among many current TAW people flying on VVS. 

 

Defending the depots, instead of attacking them, is always a losing strategy. Even if you managed to intercept one bomber, there will be always someone who slips trough. And most of the time flying a patrol means you are not actually doing anything for good hour, as you have no concrete information if anyone is actually going to depot or at what altitude. 

 

Offense >>>>> defense in every conceivable way. Only reason i see to hang around depots is to pad your kill statistics. As defending depot instead of attacking one is futile.You will achieve more impact for your team by dropping one 250kg bomb on enemy depot than stopping one bomber from returning after he dropped his load. 

 

This, paired with the fact that 5 people with some dedication and elbow grease can kill a whole depot in 2-3 missions on a low pop times. The VVS has really no one but themselves  and their ignorance of new META to blame. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

 

Funny thing now when the atrition is equal or even grater on red side, no one speaks about the biased red planes and fragile blue ones (as it was constantly the case during previous taw caps  when the red side was winning by attrition of blue side assets...)

 

 

 just to add my 2cents

 

 

 

 

We've been complaining about side stacks for a good while now. Nothing funny about it. Those of us who are willing to balance sides due to numbers stack get screwed over by those who never swap no matter the stack. It is a valid complaint. I really don't care if it's a persons favorite aircraft. I'd love to see sign up sheets by side and region.

 

It won't happen though. Fortunately TAW is just a fun campaign. For historical and balanced team play join the Air Combat Group. Our campaign leaves the white Cliffs of Dover soon. We do our campaign on Sunday so it does not interfere with other campaign fun like TAW.   :)

 

https://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/

 

 

14 hours ago, Furt said:

expurgates

 

 

Had to google that. Damn it. Foreigners knowing my one language better than me is embarrassing. Good post, thanks.

 

 

6 hours ago, HR_Eldamar said:


We may not agree on many things, but what is undeniable is that this is the most immersive campaign that can be flown today.

 

 

 

TAW is great but there is a more immersive option. We are so anal about immersion we have a paperwork simulator.... Some after action reports are hilarious.

We also have strict and historic claiming rules. If no one saw it, unconfirmed kill.

 

 

https://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/acg-pam/

 

As the pilots back then, ACG-Pilots are required to write an After Action Report after each campaign mission, where they claim victories and describe the course of events of their mission. The reports are written, submitted and presented via these pages. Information from the reports is used to create pilot- and squadron profiles and various other statistics.

There are currently 173 active pilots flying for ACG. The whole group consists of 7 Royal Air Force squadrons and 9 Luftwaffe Staffeln. There are 13504 after action reports stored in this database, each representing a mission flown by one of our members during a campaign night.

 

 

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper
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12 hours ago, JohanLoton said:

Might be too early to ask this..

Any plans on having Bodenplatte seasons? 

 

I'd bet when we get the map, we'll get a map using all the planes released up to that time on TAW.

4 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

 

 

TAW is great but there is a more immersive option. We are so anal about immersion we have a paperwork simulator.... Some after action reports are hilarious.

We also have strict and historic claiming rules. If no one saw it, unconfirmed kill.

 

 

https://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/acg-pam/

 

As the pilots back then, ACG-Pilots are required to write an After Action Report after each campaign mission, where they claim victories and describe the course of events of their mission. The reports are written, submitted and presented via these pages. Information from the reports is used to create pilot- and squadron profiles and various other statistics.

There are currently 173 active pilots flying for ACG. The whole group consists of 7 Royal Air Force squadrons and 9 Luftwaffe Staffeln. There are 13504 after action reports stored in this database, each representing a mission flown by one of our members during a campaign night.

 

 

 

Pretty typical: https://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/acg-pam/reportRAF.php?r_id=13339

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17 hours ago, Inkoslav said:

 

 

Yeah, this is the constant issue. Heck, doesn't even matter when during EU mornings the reds often outnumber the blues. What can 10 reds vs 3 blues do, when 10 players barely are enough to halt the advance of the blue tanks? We may destroy a tank column. Maybe even two. But we can't help our own tanks advance because there's no time to actually destroy any defenses, so our tank columns will automatically lose, and the next round it's the same all over again: Two new blue tank columns that need to be destroyed, so at best we can try to maintain the status quo.

 

Then more blue players come online, and all possibilities for the reds to even maintain said status quo goes out of the window, because now it's no longer possible to spare enough players for ground attack.

 

Actually sparing people to attack supply depots then is basically doomed, because who can afford to have half the team (5 guys) away for an hour on a depot strike when they are needed immediately near the own airfields not to lose them in an instant?

 

There are right now, 3 enemy tank columns on the map, with zero russian ones. There are 7 russian players to stop them. I wonder how often this is happening.

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