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Tactical Air War

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4 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

Well in a perfect scenario you fly with 3 groups maybe but flying with just 1 escort who goes ahead to the depot and engages fighters will already increase your survival rate by a lot. Especially because on high altitudes there is not a lot the VVS can do to stop a 109. 

 

We aren't on the same side but otherwise i would have gladly done the escort duty for you ;)

Thx. And I will hold You to Your word if we will fly the same side ;)

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40 minutes ago, LLv44_Mprhead said:

 

It's actually quite hard to get useful fighter escort... 😐 Seriously escorting medium bombers is not necessary that easy and it to be effective you would need 3 groups (forward sweep, close escort and high cover). If bombing from a bit higher altitude like from 5000m or so flak is not normally really a problem anymore but if enemy fighters spot you and have half a idea what they are doing, you are pretty much done.

Ever tried to ask help from other Finnish fighter squads? ;)

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35 minutes ago, LLv34_adexu said:

Ever tried to ask help from other Finnish fighter squads? ;)

 

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18 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

 Difference is like between hunting a deer in woods and going to slaughter house...

 

Yes indeed.

 

People really need to be careful with all these brilliant ideas.  Some of them will simply push a critically endangered species(bomber pilots) into extinction and then you'll need to replace them with AI or make peace with Berloga.

 

I can't remember the stats Kathon posted on flights by aircraft type from a few campaigns ago.  What was it, 85% are in fighter? More?  Something like that.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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20 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

 

 

The facts are as follows : now if they wait above depot (and are too lazy to patrol the approaches) the bomber will drop the bombs before going down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With vision range of 10km (or was it reduced to 7km), you need to be complete handles fool not to be able to sneak to depot unnoticed.  (At clear sky conditions at 3km and above it is not uncommon to have visibility up to 30km, And that is if we don't take in to account the reflective surfaces, that can give away planes position closer to 50km, as was the case in pacific theater)

 

At average speed of 400km/h, it takes 90 seconds to traverse 10km. That means you have under  two minutes to spot, identify and intercept a bomber. 

Historically, bomber formations were seen and most importantly, HEARD, coming hours before they got to target (and lets face it, if this was not so, having an interceptors on standby to scramble would have been an lost cause from beginning). Lone bombers never happened and most bombing raids happened at dark, for a VERY good reason. (Also, reasons stated above is why Mosquito was such a pain in the arse to counter, as it left so little time to react and was so bloody fast, still even mosquito don't come close to the ninja ability of 111 with 10km distance limitations and no early warning network to write home about causes.)

 

In here we never get night missions and rarely bad weather missions. Its blue skies all day erry day 90% of time but because of visual range limitations, doing #YOLO swag run against enemy depot is so easy its boring (but hey, at least you can see the target you bomb clearly :crazy:). 

Last few TAW's I've flown Pe2s to depots and only once I've ran in to stray 110 on his way to his own target. And only time it is even remotely risky is when you got full house of a server (40+ players on each side). At the low pop hours (70% of server time) one can(and some do) fly afk bomber, afk fighters and sometimes afk bathtubs (1942, colorized.) on autolevel at depots and back all day long. 

 

If bombing goes extinct it is not because it is hard, it because it about as entertaining as watching the paint dry. 

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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5 hours ago, LLv34_adexu said:

Ever tried to ask help from other Finnish fighter squads? ;)

 

Why do you think I said useful fighter escort is hard to get? 😄 Seriously, we have had that and while it does improve chance to survive there is still a good chance that bombers will be shot down. And ofc always depends on who is online and available. There was also something else I was going to say but got disrupted by wife...

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51 minutes ago, LLv44_Mprhead said:

 

I said useful fighter escort is hard to get

😀 Better to switch side then 😅

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1 hour ago, LLv34_adexu said:

😀 Better to switch side then 😅

But they don't have Ju 88 :( We actually need more practise with this fighter escort thing also. And if the enemy fighters come with higher energy state and are willing to sacrifice their position, it's more or less impossible intercept them before they inflict some serious damage to (german) bombers. It is probably quite accurate historically that neither ju 88 nor he 111 can take many hits from 20mm. And btw I am not complaining about anything. If I get shot down when bombing enemy depot alone, it is a risk I took and nobody else is to blame. Ofc  a bit different if you ask for escort and nobody comes but I don't see that really a problem as usually someone is willing to come if there are people online. Maybe it's different for attack planes that need to go down low. I really don't know about that.

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With the Battle of Stalingrad coming to an end, i want to say that this was one of the best battles i have experienced within the campaign.  Relentless Tank columns pushing every round and VVS being on its last leg desperately trying to hold on to these 2 airfields. 

 

Its sad that this battle came to an end with a tank column spawn instantly deactivating Erzovka...

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10 hours ago, No.615_Kai_Lae said:

 

 

Too bad Siddy is shooting chutes. Though he was ok guy. But seems like that is the only thing he can hit :(


Is this chute killing really thing on TAW? I never have been shot in the chute. Rarely bail out tho. Some of other Finnish guys started to shoot chutes as they have been shot. I must admit, that I will probably start shooting chutes too, if I will get shot in the chute, at least for couple of missions. What is the point of shooting chutes? To remove some  aces from that top5 fighters scoreboard. Why?

 

EDIT: LLv34 is not shooting chutes in any circumstances. Order of our squadron leader and it is against Geneve contract. 

Edited by LLv34_adexu

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2 hours ago, LLv34_adexu said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Too bad Siddy is shooting chutes. Though he was ok guy. But seems like that is the only thing he can hit :(


Is this chute killing really thing on TAW? I never have been shot in the chute. Rarely bail out tho. Some of other Finnish guys started to shoot chutes as they have been shot. I must admit, that I will probably start shooting chutes too, if I will get shot in the chute, at least for couple of missions. What is the point of shooting chutes? To remove some  aces from that top5 fighters scoreboard. Why?

 

EDIT: LLv34 is not shooting chutes in any circumstances. Order of our squadron leader and it is against Geneve contract. 

I was shot on a chute just two days ago, didn't need to put salt on my fries that night I had plenty left. Let's not bring chute killing discusion back, it is allowed and it makes sense in a way. Real men don't shoot chutes.

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Without saying that VVS should have won map#3, i can't help but feel a little gut punched by how it ended. The last resistance was broken by spawns instantly deactivating airfields without a chance to fight back..

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Ivy, I like your early warning system. We have radar for our public Cliffs server written by Donkey. It makes it easy to link up with friendly bombers as well as intercept. I have found that it concentrates fights as opposed to just being a bomber smash. Radar takes away the aimless wandering.

 

You can also fly out on the deck to avoid it. ATAG also has radar and bombers still get through. The 69th drops bombs all day even with early warning.

 

Radar will improve the server by concentrating the action. It's also somewhat realistic. I know the Germans had Freya, do the Russians have a radar system? It's a gap in my history knowledge. Even if it's just something like a British style Observer Corps I imagine the Russians had something. Radar and early warning observers work both ways. You can use it as a bomber pilot to avoid the enemy patrols.

 

What did they actually use on the Eastern Front? Freya for Germans, Russians had what?

 

 

EDIT

 

Donkey just told me there is no way to extract the data and it's impossible to make a radar for BoX. Apologies if I am misquoting him I am no code wizard like he is nor do I have the proper language to describe what he can do.

 

We need Jason to turn enable:

 

log event ID 17

 

It was a debug entry that USED to be there and gave  XYZ of all assets every 20 seconds or so.

 

Donkey just informed me it was turned off a couple months back.

 

If we want radar help me ask.

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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5 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

Can someone explain why my wing on my 109 just disappered.... http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=29118&name=SCG_Sinerox No one hit me, did'nt hit the ground on taxi or on take off and it just falls off and I die...

Where you not pulling "Gs" or in a dive? I know it sounds obvious but unless you are looking you can end up too fast and then shit happens

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On 7/4/2018 at 9:43 PM, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

I don't understand the double standards when it comes to historical accuracy. 

 

On one hand people advocate for it when it comes to plane sets, accurate flight and damage models. On the other hand they want to fly their bombers alone without escort.

Its also not about killing/surviving but about dropping their bombs. A few more flak positions like we have in place already wouldn't change the survival rate of the bombers. It might even increase it considering that fighters wouldn't simply hug the depot but actively try to hunt for the incoming Bombers to prevent a Bomb drop. Why is this unpopular right now? because the chance that a Bomber is sneaking passed is high. That's why people don't do it and rather take the likely bomb drop on their depot. 

The reasoning behind survival is wrong and misleading. Bomber pilots don't die because the mission is too dangerous but rather because they fly solo. That's why depots are a fighter pilots buffet. However, like i said. It won't change the survival rate but give fighters a better chance to prevent a bomb drop.

 

This is admittedly a quite complex approach to solve the issue and unlikely to get implemented. A more simple approach, which will be unpopular as well i assume, is to further limit the availability of Bombers so that they are valued more.

 

Either way. It might not be an obvious issue for the majority right now but i think that with the the more detailed information about how depots work, we will see an increase. 

You can patrol ways where should bombers come with fighters. So spend resources to defend depots. Other way it will be too easy for fighters to increasing there streaks. I know a lot of pilots who just hunting for streaks and not for team targets.

On 7/4/2018 at 10:39 PM, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

You must have some form of bias against me, otherwise i fail to see how you come to these conclusions. 

 

What we have now is lazy for fighters. Simply wait for Bombers at the Depot. How can anything be more lazy than that? Did you ever ask yourself why fighters aren't doing what you suggest? It is absolutely impracticable. My changes would do the exact opposite! it would encourage to be more active and try to predict flight patterns based on the intel you get. In the end its about how you implement it in detail but like i said i am not talking about a flightradar24 type of thing.

 

Just because i don't fly bombers doesn't mean i am not involved in it as a fighter. You always seem to try to divide people by claiming they are either one or the other. You suggest changes where red would benefit from? you must be only flying red! you suggest changes to bombers? you must want to have an easier time as a fighter pilot! 

 

We are all playing the same game and some are trying to improve the general gameplay for both sides. Try remembering that sometimes.

I fly both sides and on fighters and bombers. And your succession will decrease a number of bombers in times. There will be suicide missions for single bombers or for groupes without cap. Try to fly bomber missions to understand that it’s not so easy and if it will be one way flights then we will loose half of bombers on both sides. 

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I can personally say that the balance on this rendition of TAW is the worst I've ever seen. I'm not sure what point the germans are getting out of it, since I don't see how flying unopposed is entertaining. Most russian pilots I know are saying they're probably going to stop flying, so GG germans? I know I'm not good enough to engage 2-3 at once in a slower plane.  

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9 minutes ago, No.615_Kai_Lae said:

I can personally say that the balance on this rendition of TAW is the worst I've ever seen. I'm not sure what point the germans are getting out of it, since I don't see how flying unopposed is entertaining. Most russian pilots I know are saying they're probably going to stop flying, so GG germans? I know I'm not good enough to engage 2-3 at once in a slower plane.  

 

 

What happened to that red coordination i've heard so much about?

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Think this is bad? Try 2 campaigns ago in January of 2018

1 minute ago, SCG_DR1FT3R said:

 

 

What happened to that red coordination i've heard so much about?

Never heard of this... Squads work together. Teams don't so much on both LW and VVS

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3 hours ago, No.615_Kai_Lae said:

I can personally say that the balance on this rendition of TAW is the worst I've ever seen. I'm not sure what point the germans are getting out of it, since I don't see how flying unopposed is entertaining. Most russian pilots I know are saying they're probably going to stop flying, so GG germans? I know I'm not good enough to engage 2-3 at once in a slower plane.  

Statistic says something different. Apart from map one, all other maps were quite balanced.

image.png.c705bfb6a894222a6ca1ce10867d8b2d.png

Frankly speaking this is one of the most balanced campaigns as for players numbers that I remember. Of course its not like previous campaign when so many players went red to try out new planes and for the first time there were trough out the campaign constant red domination in players numbers. But any way its way more balanced than all other campaigns that i remember (I'm a dedicated Red side pilot with now only 2nd time flying full campaign on blue side)

 

 

 

 

Edited by Carl_infar
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Blue gave a-3, can u give ingenе 82-f to la-5? Or the history work only for F-4? 

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On 7/8/2018 at 6:35 PM, =KK=Des_ said:

Other way it will be too easy for fighters to increasing there streaks. I know a lot of pilots who just hunting for streaks and not for team targets.

 

I don't quite understand where this argument is coming from. You know this goes both ways right? 

 

3 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

Never heard of this... Squads work together. Teams don't so much on both LW and VVS

 

And there are way more players organised in squads on Blue side this time.

 

Quote

Blue gave a-3, can u give ingenе 82-f to la-5? Or the history work only for F-4? 

 

The Devs confirmed that the F4 had nothing to do with historical accuracy but it was a decision to try to give Blue an advantage.

 

3 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

Statistic says something different. Apart from map one, all other maps were quite balanced.

 

This is simply not true. All of the maps with a heavy BoM planeset were (and probably will be) unbalanced number wise. Only until Map#4 it got to the point where you might want to call it balanced numbers. The planeset etc is a different story.

 

26 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

At this moment situation is as follows:

 

Wow a screenshot of a single moment during early hours. Consider me convinced. 🙄 

 

 

Edited by Operatsiya_Ivy

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5 hours ago, No.615_Kai_Lae said:

I can personally say that the balance on this rendition of TAW is the worst I've ever seen. I'm not sure what point the germans are getting out of it, since I don't see how flying unopposed is entertaining. Most russian pilots I know are saying they're probably going to stop flying, so GG germans? I know I'm not good enough to engage 2-3 at once in a slower plane.  

Strange most engagements I've had is either saving a lone 109 or a 110 or defending the tanks were I'm outnumbered

by reds il-2 with fighter cover . 

I see the odd red flying alone .

I think it's been quite balanced in most cases when  i am online . Hardly anyone on TS English though .

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3 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

At this moment situation is as follows:

taw.thumb.jpg.a06283ae54244eebdbc09807ba93fab3.jpg

 

and now is

swS58zR.jpeg

 

 

 

AND?

 

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18 minutes ago, HR_Eldamar said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

AND?

 

As I wrote : as per server statistics its good balanced in respect to most of the campaigns (except the last one where the red side had clear advantage).:

taw.thumb.jpg.1702935ceab0aabae14d78d27053660d.jpg

 

If you see above the avrage players number on last week  its 14,6 blue and 13,1 red . Last 2 weeks its on avrage ,16,6 blue and 13,5 red.

I remeber many campaigns which I've flown (90% of them on red side) where there was very often while I was taking off 40 Blue to 3 red - so the current campaign is as blanaced as You can get when flying IL2.

 

If you see the WOL or any other server stats its always on avrage 3 to 4  more blue players than red.:

taw1.thumb.jpg.7653ebe4fb39cd98150f5c1026d76226.jpg

 

Edited by Carl_infar

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In all previous TAW there has been more fighting. The blue ones have won some maps and the red ones. Edition after edition the blue team has been demanding things, the 61k, the 23mm of the Lagg3, the 37 of the IL2, and they have been given, Now the radar of support for the companions, the f4, and they keep asking, The light aaa of the columns ...
In each Taw things have been improving for the blue team, which does not seem bad, as long as there is still excitement.
In this Taw The blues sweep, in the first maps almost without opposition, Now gives the feeling of the columns advance no matter what happens, gain ground until when there are no blue flying.
We can continue simulating that everything is the same as before, that the thing is balanced, the only thing that happens is that the blue pilots have done a specialization course in TOP GUN and the reds are all day drinking Vodka. and let the campaign die alone.
Or we can see what is really happening and that the TAW is still the competition that both red and blue are willing to fly
Both for me and for the rest of my squadron the thing is losing interest. winning or losing the campaign is not something that worries us very much, but it gives us the feeling that we not only fight against the blue pilots.

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I would like to ask the blue team with all seriousness why they advance so quickly in this campaign compared to past ones. Furthermore I would like to know why the aircraft and pilot losses are now reversed.
Why is that? Do the reds have less good players? Do the blues have better players now? More teamwork? Why? I have my thoughts, but I want to hear first from other players what they think and then I share my thoughts.

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Infar, sorry but that graph means very little. Truth is during first 3 maps the difference in quorum was huge for the blue team; mainly 2-3:1 and reaching 9:1 or even more at times. During map #4 the teams were quite balanced except during critical moments where again balance went 2:1 and even more in favor of blue.

 

Apart from that unbalance in teams, the main difference is like we saw on map #3 and #4, blue tanks could take an airfield 30km away in one map load, while red tanks would have to wait 3 whole maps to advance 10km.

Now i know why, this is the tankset during current TAW edition: 

Zf77aXo.png

 

Edited by ECV56_Chimango
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This is not particularly a blue/red side issue but a general one. It is only more obvious because blue side manages to get a lot more tank spawns. 

 

Tank convoy or artillery spawns instantly shutting down airfields is getting looked at by the admins currently. 

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59 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

Why is that?

 

I noticed yesterday that there weren't many red columns spawning. I just took a quick look at the tank column spawn situation for the current map. From missions 152 to 177 blue spawned 20 columns and red spawned 15. The only explanation I can offer is the difference in respective depot damage. On mission 178, the red depot at Mal Chapurniki was captured. From that point, mission 178 to the current 190, blue spawned 13 columns and red spawned 5.

 

It would appear that sometimes after a tank column captures a city, it continues advancing to a new objective on the following mission. Either that or a new column automatically spawns from the newly-captured city.

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2 minutes ago, StG77_HvB said:

 

I noticed yesterday that there weren't many red columns spawning. I just took a quick look at the tank column spawn situation for the current map. From missions 152 to 177 blue spawned 20 columns and red spawned 15. The only explanation I can offer is the difference in respective depot damage. On mission 178, the red depot at Mal Chapurniki was captured. From that point, mission 178 to the current 190, blue spawned 13 columns and red spawned 5.

 

It would appear that sometimes after a tank column captures a city, it continues advancing to a new objective on the following mission. Either that or a new column automatically spawns from the newly-captured city.


Depots are having an impact on how large a single column is. A tank column with a completely destroyed depot is 30% shorter. Which is one explanation why the red tanks are heaving a harder time.
Your observation is correct and the effect is to be expected since the chance of tank spawns is tied to the number of cities and airfields the attacking team possess. So its no wonder that with a map which is 75% german that the tank spawns are significantly increased.

That is a game design choice. I would argue that leads to a "point of no return" mechanic. As soon as a critical number of airfields are down, the additional tank columns are hard to destroy. The depots for the attacking team are further and further away while the depots of the defending team get closer.
At the same time less tank columns have to be taken care of and the tank columns are shorter. The reds are at the moment always a few players down. Sometimes ok, sometimes not. But that does certainly doesn't make things easier.

We did in the last couple of missions a lot of anti tank missions and it felt like putting out bush fires with your feet.

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1 hour ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Infar, sorry but that graph means very little. Truth is during first 3 maps the difference in quorum was huge for the blue team; mainly 2-3:1 and reaching 9:1 or even more at times. During map #4 the teams were quite balanced except during critical moments where again balance went 2:1 and even more in favor of blue.

 

Apart from that unbalance in teams, the main difference is like we saw on map #3 and #4, blue tanks could take an airfield 30km away in one map load, while red tanks would have to wait 3 whole maps to advance 10km.

 

 

below you can see the graph since the start of the current taw which as for avarage player count doesnt differ much from the previous ones (blue avg. 10,1 red 7,7 players).

As far as I remeber only on the first map there was big difference in numbers, it evened up with 2nd map when the mig3 become avialable and this trend is continuing with addition of bos planes as expected:

taw.thumb.jpg.c9edcd811de039bc0eb5585ba7eebf0b.jpg

 

as for tanks its like Katon said - the number of columns and their size depends on depots - so defend yours and attack the enemy ones.

in current map already the red side lost both depots to bombing (the South one which is now up respawned after being completely destroyed and not present for few maps)

 

Anyway there are still limits of tanks , pilots and planes which can be focused in order to achive victory if You lost your depots (by means of which in the previous campaigns red side won many maps)

2 hours ago, HR_Eldamar said:

In all previous TAW there has been more fighting. The blue ones have won some maps and the red ones. Edition after edition the blue team has been demanding things, the 61k, the 23mm of the Lagg3, the 37 of the IL2, and they have been given, Now the radar of support for the companions, the f4, and they keep asking, The light aaa of the columns ...
In each Taw things have been improving for the blue team, which does not seem bad, as long as there is still excitement.
In this Taw The blues sweep, in the first maps almost without opposition, Now gives the feeling of the columns advance no matter what happens, gain ground until when there are no blue flying.
We can continue simulating that everything is the same as before, that the thing is balanced, the only thing that happens is that the blue pilots have done a specialization course in TOP GUN and the reds are all day drinking Vodka. and let the campaign die alone.
Or we can see what is really happening and that the TAW is still the competition that both red and blue are willing to fly
Both for me and for the rest of my squadron the thing is losing interest. winning or losing the campaign is not something that worries us very much, but it gives us the feeling that we not only fight against the blue pilots.

Its not completly true - In previous campaign the situation was opposite - the blue side was steam rolled trough all but I think 1 map (If I remeber correctly) - even the first map was won by conquering the territory by red side. (a funny thing, the comments were very similar - "its impossible to play..., I will not play till..." - I know that I'll get bashed for it but i just have to wright it -  I hope just that they werent coming from same people who just changed sides from blue last camp to red current camp (i dont remeber))

 

 

Edited by Carl_infar

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My comment about blue-red tanks was a joke, nothing serious. Admins have decided to give more importance to resources (depots) and that's fine, it's a little advantage for LW and their strategic bombers, as VVS has advantage in tank busting, so all OK.

IMO the 3 main reasons we finally have a bluie side victory are these:

 

1. Huge difference in team quorum, really unbalanced most maps.


2. Advantage given to LW this edition, already admited by Kathon. Some things ok, others a bit too much. Lagg-3 not able to carry 23mm till map #4; but 109F4 present in map #2 able to carry 2x20mm gunpods, that is a prime fighter during 1941 with possibility of having 3x20mm...thats better than a FW190! And like this other advantages.


3. Good and organized squads caring for map outcome like =KK=, JG4, =LG= flying blue.

 

This and previous TAW edition are not balanced at all. TAW 11 was good and almost ended in a draw with teams balanced all maps. But changes kept coming after one side complained all the time...and now we have this situation.

Edited by ECV56_Chimango
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