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Finnish VirtualPilots - Dynamic War

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Behavior like pilot killing of enemy in a chute can be solved by server scoring the points and kill against the offending pilot not against the defeated foe. This is how we handled it in Warbirds a long time ago.


in other words, you kill yourself, not enemy if you shoot at a pilot in a chute. 
 

jokkr

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11 minutes ago, 1./JG42flesch said:

Pilot "26- Black" Red Gentleman killt my Pilot after Bail out on the Chute.

Mission 9001.

 

And what did I just say. In the post before yours... PM us. PM! :)

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11 minutes ago, WB_jokkr said:

Behavior like pilot killing of enemy in a chute can be solved by server scoring the points and kill against the offending pilot not against the defeated foe. This is how we handled it in Warbirds a long time ago.

Hmm, need to check if paratroopers in chute are counted the same as pilots in chute. If not, I could try assigning a negative score to para kills on stats site.

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1 hour ago, 1./JG42flesch said:

Pilot "26- Black" Red Gentleman killt my Pilot after Bail out on the Chute.

Mission 9001.

Mission 9001 has taken place in June. Are you sure of the mission number?

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9 hours ago, LLv34_Untamo said:

 

The way I see it: there is no problem. You'll have to define the problem to me. What gameplay imbalance?

 

 

False. Defending objectives can be achieved, and even ground attacking at these times does affect the opposing side even if you do less damage than the enemy does to you. The frontline advance is proportionate to the health of each side at the end of each mission. And as said, the mission is won over days/weeks, not at the particular moment that there is a team imbalance.

 

 

Why? Why "must" there be?

We won't force players to any particular side, we won't even give an incentive because THAT would be unfair. We provide a sandbox, and it is your freedom as players to do as you please.
 

 

1) we join a server and there's 3 vvs and 25 axis.

 

2) how can you defend an objective with 3 people vs 10 attacking planes exactly?

 

3) so there's a more or less even number of players on both sides.

 

Take the yesterday's gameplay for example:

- Early war

- 4 vvs vs 20 axis

- VVS has I16's, LAGG, Mig3, P40 for fighters   vs  E7's, 110's, F2's, Stukas

 

the planeset itself is imbalanced from the point of capabilities, the qty of players is out of balance.  All our attempts at 'defending' our positions were shut down within the first minute of showing up at our defenses. All we can do at this point is trying to sneak and go to the rear bases and try to bomb something, which wasn't a sure shot either because 2 enemy fighters showed up there within 5 minutes and destroyed our whole group due to more maneuverable and faster planes.

 

Why is the early war map so badly balanced? The only way to take on the axis in this particular scenario using weak vvs planes is if we have 2:1 number advantage, or at least 1.5:1.

 

You can say "it's historical", ok, but then how having P38/tempest in Kuban makes any sense in later plane rotation?  If it's historical then it needs to be historical all the time. But if you're allowing for additional and stronger planes to be part of the scenarios later on why not make it across all time periods?  Last night's map wasn't about "ok, let's make a difference" for the vvs, it was "let me time myself to see how long before I'm dead". Not sure what else I can present to you for more clarity on the situation.

 

Let me add one more thing, - - all of the above is because I LOVE playing on your server. If I didn't like it I wouldn't have posted anything in this thread to begin with. We're faced with the similar unbalanced server pretty much on daily basis and after a while it results in frustration as every night we have to come up with some b.s. tactics mainly for purpose of annoying the enemy, instead of actually fighting it to win the map.

 

 

Edited by Didney_World
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25 minutes ago, Didney_World said:

VVS has I16's, LAGG, Mig3, P40 for fighters   vs  E7's, 110's, F2's, Stukas

If there was F2 but no Yak-1, then it’s an error.

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It is often the case in eastern front set missions, using the earlier plane sets from this server, that the Axis team outnumbers the Soviet team. As much as it pains me to say it, that is probably the way it will always be. There are just too many people who, for various reasons (most of them bad if you ask me), will not fly the Soviet planes. I've seen teams stacked 64 to 2 Axis/Soviet in the past, and while 2 or 3 to one is more common this kind of thing dose happen. When this is pointed out the common response runs along the lines of 'quit crying' or 'this is historical' or 'just let me have my fun.' The plane sets of missions contribute to this but they do not cause this. The community causes this and there is little will among the community to change this.

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1 hour ago, -SF-Disarray said:

It is often the case in eastern front set missions, using the earlier plane sets from this server, that the Axis team outnumbers the Soviet team. As much as it pains me to say it, that is probably the way it will always be. There are just too many people who, for various reasons (most of them bad if you ask me), will not fly the Soviet planes. I've seen teams stacked 64 to 2 Axis/Soviet in the past, and while 2 or 3 to one is more common this kind of thing dose happen. When this is pointed out the common response runs along the lines of 'quit crying' or 'this is historical' or 'just let me have my fun.' The plane sets of missions contribute to this but they do not cause this. The community causes this and there is little will among the community to change this.

 

German fighters are different in that they have a lot of automation. No radiators hassle, not to speak of propeller pitch hassle, no fuel richness hassle, and no trimming hassle, except maybe pitch trim. Way less hassle. Trimming is not fun unless you have levers with what you do it.

 

I am puzzled how people can fly allied planes in VR. Do they have a lot of buttons and levers or do they just use "touch typing" on keyboard? In fact I would like to know an answer to that before buying a VR kit.

 

It also seems there are not many VVS online squadrons. There are a ton of German squadrons and some British and American squadrons, of this I think many chose to fly German plane instead of VVS plane. So I think that German planes are preferred by majority, meaning that even if plane sets would be equal there would still be more people flying German planes.

 

In original IL-2 there were some high end Russian servers, where German side were underdogs. Where are the Russians now? Playing in their own Russian servers?

 

Hats off for VVS pilots in this server, they have guts. Hats off for Axis side too that they have managed to make such overwhelming force.

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11 minutes ago, messsucher said:

I am puzzled how people can fly allied planes in VR. Do they have a lot of buttons and levers or do they just use "touch typing" on keyboard? In fact I would like to know an answer to that before buying a VR kit.

 

i fly in VR for vvs/axis and I only use the keyboard for text chat and some rare commands, like 'feathering'.  The rest is mapped to my HOTAS and I use them by a simple blind feel. You just need the proper hotas:

- water rads - on axis

- oil rads - on axis

- radial inlet shutters - on axis

- radial outlet shutters - on axis (same axis as water rads for inline engines)

- stabilizer/trim - on axis

- mixture - on axis

 

so for flying I-16 for example I use:

- radial inlet rads axis  <-- same for I-16, La)

- oil rads axis <-- same for all planes

- mixture axis <-- same for all planes

- rpm axis <-- same for all planes

- throttle axis <-- same for all planes

 

so just 5 of them. The rest are buttons on HOTAS:   boost button, gear up/down buttons, flaps up/down buttons..

 

After a while you'll get used to the location of these controls and you don't need to physically look at them anymore.

 

 

Edited by Didney_World
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23 minutes ago, Didney_World said:

 

i fly in VR for vvs/axis and I only use the keyboard for text chat and some rare commands, like 'feathering'.  The rest is mapped to my HOTAS and I use them by a simple blind feel. You just need the proper hotas:

- water rads - on axis

- oil rads - on axis

- radial inlet shutters - on axis

- radial outlet shutters - on axis (same axis as water rads for inline engines)

- stabilizer/trim - on axis

- mixture - on axis

 

so for flying I-16 for example I use:

- radial inlet rads axis  <-- same for I-16, La)

- oil rads axis <-- same for all planes

- mixture axis <-- same for all planes

- rpm axis <-- same for all planes

- throttle axis <-- same for all planes

 

so just 5 of them. The rest are buttons on HOTAS:   boost button, gear up/down buttons, flaps up/down buttons..

 

After a while you'll get used to the location of these controls and you don't need to physically look at them anymore.

 

 

 

Ok, so I thought, thanks of the info.

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1 hour ago, messsucher said:

 

German fighters are different in that they have a lot of automation. No radiators hassle, not to speak of propeller pitch hassle, no fuel richness hassle, and no trimming hassle, except maybe pitch trim. Way less hassle. Trimming is not fun unless you have levers with what you do it.

 

I am puzzled how people can fly allied planes in VR. Do they have a lot of buttons and levers or do they just use "touch typing" on keyboard? In fact I would like to know an answer to that before buying a VR kit.

 

It also seems there are not many VVS online squadrons. There are a ton of German squadrons and some British and American squadrons, of this I think many chose to fly German plane instead of VVS plane. So I think that German planes are preferred by majority, meaning that even if plane sets would be equal there would still be more people flying German planes.

 

In original IL-2 there were some high end Russian servers, where German side were underdogs. Where are the Russians now? Playing in their own Russian servers?

 

Hats off for VVS pilots in this server, they have guts. Hats off for Axis side too that they have managed to make such overwhelming force.

 

I can't speak to the VR aspect of this argument but just in terms of game play this is nonsense. This is the first real sim I jumped into seriously and I started out in LaGG's, Yaks, and PE-2's for the most part because the team balance was askew. If a new player, both to this game specifically and to combat flight sims in general, can figure out how to make the plane go vroom and the guns go bang anyone can do this. I hear this argument a lot, 'Soviet planes are just too complex for me to learn' and I've never found it convincing. It certainly isn't a compelling reason to join a server, see the teams a 10 to 40 and then join the 40.

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20 minutes ago, -SF-Disarray said:

 

I can't speak to the VR aspect of this argument but just in terms of game play this is nonsense. This is the first real sim I jumped into seriously and I started out in LaGG's, Yaks, and PE-2's for the most part because the team balance was askew. If a new player, both to this game specifically and to combat flight sims in general, can figure out how to make the plane go vroom and the guns go bang anyone can do this. I hear this argument a lot, 'Soviet planes are just too complex for me to learn' and I've never found it convincing. It certainly isn't a compelling reason to join a server, see the teams a 10 to 40 and then join the 40.

 

You then have more than what it takes to be a VVS pilot. VVS planes are more complex, and that is a fact, but I agree that they are not that complex, especially given the performance La-5 and Yak-9 give, meaning you don't remember VVS planes being complex when you fly either of those 😄  Also VVS planes have special charm. They are a bit more steam punk when compared to elegant British planes, coldly engineered Germans, or, hmm, wait, how you can describe USAF planes? They are cool but somehow just OP. So lets just say cool monsters.

 

Polls should be made in order to get an idea why people prefer Axis nowadays. I think people just dislike VVS planes.

 

I flew VVS in original IL-2, namely on =69.GIAP=, which was glorious while it lasted.

 

Chosing a side is not as easy as "just pick whatever is least represented", at least not for me. I like to be dedicated to one side, and then bite both the good and the bad. When flying on the other side I get traitorous feelings I dislike. It is more fun to become dedicated and emotionally invested and immersed in one side.

 

But which side to chose! Not an easy choice if you like all planes no matter how different you can feel them in general to be. And right now there appear to be an excellent Luftwaffe squadron looking for new pilots, while in VVS there is nothing - except that misery described here 😄

 

To end this talk some proper and fitting music is needed.

 

The Wrath of the Soviet People.

 

 

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I suppose it is easier to pick one side to fly for exclusively when you have a fairly good chance of not being outnumbered...

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You don't have to be right at an objective to defend it.  Enemy planes are coming from somewhere predictable.... intercept before they get to target.

You can always attack somewhere else to help your side...

Sun Tzu would say when outnumbered, attack where the enemy is weak.

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26 minutes ago, -SF-Disarray said:

I suppose it is easier to pick one side to fly for exclusively when you have a fairly good chance of not being outnumbered...

 

Hahahahaha, you made me jump off the fence and walk towards the nearest VVS airfield. Well done! One more pilot for VVS.

 

VVS for life! Lets fight for the people! The red star shall rise high!

 

 

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I have no illusions as to my ability to sway people on this issue. If there are people who don't care for basic fair play I can't make them. I just wish you people were more honest about it. All of this twisting and spinning a simple issue is tiresome. I can't imagine coming up with flowery excuses for basic selfishness or an unwillingness to suffer even a slight disadvantage is easy, either, but we all have our burdens I suppose.

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On 9/25/2020 at 5:24 PM, messsucher said:

 

German fighters are different in that they have a lot of automation. No radiators hassle, not to speak of propeller pitch hassle, no fuel richness hassle, and no trimming hassle, except maybe pitch trim. Way less hassle. Trimming is not fun unless you have levers with what you do it.

 

I am puzzled how people can fly allied planes in VR. Do they have a lot of buttons and levers or do they just use "touch typing" on keyboard? In fact I would like to know an answer to that before buying a VR kit.

 

It also seems there are not many VVS online squadrons. There are a ton of German squadrons and some British and American squadrons, of this I think many chose to fly German plane instead of VVS plane. So I think that German planes are preferred by majority, meaning that even if plane sets would be equal there would still be more people flying German planes.

 

In original IL-2 there were some high end Russian servers, where German side were underdogs. Where are the Russians now? Playing in their own Russian servers?

 

Hats off for VVS pilots in this server, they have guts. Hats off for Axis side too that they have managed to make such overwhelming force.

Speaking about VR I mainly use the visual information to fly p40 or mig in this map. Mig is way easier, full throttle 50% mixture, 40-50% rad

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20 minutes ago, E69_Qpassa_VR said:

Speaking about VR I mainly use the visual information to fly p40 or mig in this map. Mig is way easier, full throttle 50% mixture, 40-50% rad

 

Just tried yesterday Mig-3 and it was pretty pleasant plane to fly. Appeared to be a little unstable in low speeds, though, and the various meters a bit of a mess, but nothing you can't overcome.

 

Thanks of those settings, decreases the time to figure them out myself.

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14 minutes ago, messsucher said:

 

Just tried yesterday Mig-3 and it was pretty pleasant plane to fly. Appeared to be a little unstable in low speeds, though, and the various meters a bit of a mess, but nothing you can't overcome.

 

Thanks of those settings, decreases the time to figure them out myself.

Make sure to increase mixture to 100% as emergency mode 

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3 minutes ago, E69_Qpassa_VR said:

Make sure to increase mixture to 100% as emergency mode 

 

Aha, thanks, will do ✌️

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12 minutes ago, Alexander9822 said:

Is the sever down currently?

 

Yes, they probs had to close to server because of the Red Storm Rising :rofl:

 

Here, have some vodka shot for a change, relax, and enjoy some music before the sorties are on again :)

 

 

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There was an issue to which I had to apply a dirty fix for now. We thought about a permanent fix for the issue, and it needs some work on the campaign app and the underlying supply network mapping.

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Added a new rear depot done by flyus747. It has a bit beefier targets than the previous rear depots. It can be picked to missions after next mission rotation.

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4 hours ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

There was an issue to which I had to apply a dirty fix for now. We thought about a permanent fix for the issue, and it needs some work on the campaign app and the underlying supply network mapping.

What's been a reason which caused the issue? Could you explain? Thank you.

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1 hour ago, 1stCL/rudidlo said:

What's been a reason which caused the issue? Could you explain? Thank you.

The supply network runs along roads and rails. There can be ”encircled” areas, where the supply connection runs through enemy territory, but enemy still doesn’t completely surround the area. The campaign app places battles to places where there is supply connection. The system couldn’t find such places.

 

To remedy this, we’ll add some ”offroad” nodes to the supply network.

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On 9/25/2020 at 4:27 PM, Didney_World said:

You can say "it's historical", ok, but then how having P38/tempest in Kuban makes any sense in later plane rotation?

 

Well, firstly, we're not a historical server. Never claimed to be. The Rotating Plane Set is an old WarBirds concept. We try to pit about concurrent/matching planes at eachother, and rotate the sets to give you the chance to fly different birds from different eras.

 

On 9/25/2020 at 4:27 PM, Didney_World said:

2) how can you defend an objective with 3 people vs 10 attacking planes exactly?

 

The same way the finns did during the war. Very carefully. Attack, zoom straight out, don't commit to dogfights. Killing one of the 10 is a success. Planes shot down also affect the frontline move. So make the enemy lose more planes than your side in the same amount of time.

Edited by LLv34_Untamo
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The new rear depot has some graphical issues. Also how about more targets closer to frontline, with less linked entities as targets far away from the frontlines? Especially these Rdepots have a million entities which surely are to blame for some performance issues on this server... Also I'm not sure it's reasonable to have some targets, like the "concentration camp" depot which can give 30+ kills with a single 250kg bomb, and then others that hardly grant any :unsure:

4.JPG

Edited by SCG_NoBigDreams

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9 hours ago, SCG_NoBigDreams said:

The new rear depot has some graphical issues.

We have functionality already that can handle this, just needs to be made to apply to depots too.

 

And apparently it applies to depots, but I hadn't remembered to do my part on it. Should be remedied after mission rotation.

Edited by LLv34_Temuri
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7 hours ago, SCG_NoBigDreams said:

Especially these Rdepots have a million entities which surely are to blame for some performance issues on this server

When you don't have the entity, the object durability is even a bigger mess than it's now.

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On 9/24/2020 at 12:30 AM, 315_R2r said:

... dude this is front created by Finish guys for multiplayer game - as such I would say it should be balanced for both of sides, as close as possible... Otherwise you will have situation as you have right now - more blue players then red players. You want to have some opponent in the game in multiplayer, give them some equal chances...

If you do not understand that than go play single player game with AI ....

@LLv34_Temuri @LLv34_Untamo

Please make for some limited time - 2-3 months - a bias for red, really, really good one - like tempest vs bf-109 E7 for example just to show the point to guys like @13/JG5Luck

Would like to see the arguments then...

If this should be 'in sink' with historic combat situation make it like limited number of blue players, 1 blue - 2 red or 3 red, like historically it has been... Don't allow the number along with planes/tank sets advantage...

While speaking of the Panzer, I don't see in the game KV-2 - would like to see you in the PZIII vs KV-2...

Make it also historical, allow the Tigers back in the game, but limit the number of players - I think 5:1 on the west front was more less the ratio ....

'We are playing a historical simulation with the pros and cons of the equipment.' Somehow again you forget that historically that the number did not favour blue, even on the east front in the beginning of 1941.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

2,770–5,369 aircraft vs 7,133–9,100 aircraft

3,350–3,795 tanks vs 11,000 tanks

'If you want a fair play you better play chess.' - does it admit that you don't allow fair play and are not for it? Good to know, shows your character....

 

So, for the last time:

We play a plane/war simulation. So, by "default" it can't be fair, because each side always tries to get an advantage above the opponent by having better equipment , or better tactis,  or superior numbers  etc.. This is generally true since the beginning of human mankind and of course applies to WW2. And yes,  it is not fair to have a stronger engine in a plane or a more powerful gun or whatever, if you apply these things against an enemy with less powerful attributes. But it happens permanently  in this game, because we have various equipment that we want to play. This game has not a "balanced" set as chess have. Chess was intended to train commanders in their intellectuel skills to defeat an equal enemy. Our situation is completely different.  We want the fun and the action by simulating flying a warplane. So, basically its ridiculous to claim  for more fairness in a war game that exists of simulated equipment for both sides. I think the makers of "Finish Virtual Pilots" are doing a great job in making this game playable for both sides based on their concept.

 

A final word regarding your last comment: It's most interesting that you dare to blame my character where you are famous for lurking at blue airfields with your tank and killing pilots when they join the game and try to start their engines.  What a fair player you are...

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, 13/JG5Luck said:

 

So, for the last time:

We play a plane/war simulation. So, by "default" it can't be fair, because each side always tries to get an advantage above the opponent by having better equipment , or better tactis,  or superior numbers  etc.. This is generally true since the beginning of human mankind and of course applies to WW2. And yes,  it is not fair to have a stronger engine in a plane or a more powerful gun or whatever, if you apply these things against an enemy with less powerful attributes. But it happens permanently  in this game, because we have various equipment that we want to play. This game has not a "balanced" set as chess have. Chess was intended to train commanders in their intellectuel skills to defeat an equal enemy. Our situation is completely different.  We want the fun and the action by simulating flying a warplane. So, basically its ridiculous to claim  for more fairness in a war game that exists of simulated equipment for both sides. I think the makers of "Finish Virtual Pilots" are doing a great job in making this game playable for both sides based on their concept.

 

A final word regarding your last comment: It's most interesting that you dare to blame my character where you are famous for lurking at blue airfields with your tank and killing pilots when they join the game and try to start their engines.  What a fair player you are...

 

 

 

 

Have to come to defence of fellow VVS pilot and say that if 50 vs 3 and somehow manage to sneak tank to enemy airbase to stop the airborne cancer where the roots are, then that would be an action worth of Hero of the Soviet Union medal 😄

 

And by the way if you are a tank and let an aircraft take off you are doing it wrong 😄

 

37367220-hero-of-the-soviet-union-gold-s

 

Need to also remind of this matter of utmost importance, since kids novadays are so clueless (not meaning you), that chess was tossed to trash bin because everyone realized in a second it is just bad and have nothing to do with wargames and simulations, hence Kriegsspiel with RNG, yes, RNG, was made by brilliant minds.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsspiel

 

I am wargaming enthusiast so I jump on every opportunity to make this clarification.

Edited by messsucher

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3 hours ago, 13/JG5Luck said:

 

So, for the last time:

We play a plane/war simulation. So, by "default" it can't be fair, because each side always tries to get an advantage above the opponent by having better equipment , or better tactis,  or superior numbers  etc.. This is generally true since the beginning of human mankind and of course applies to WW2. And yes,  it is not fair to have a stronger engine in a plane or a more powerful gun or whatever, if you apply these things against an enemy with less powerful attributes. But it happens permanently  in this game, because we have various equipment that we want to play.


And let's remember that even if the server admins could miraculously create perfecty balanced plane sets, there would still be the human factor. We, the pilots, are not comparable with our skills. What happens when planes are equal, pilot numbers are the same...but still the other side is waaay better? Should we start looking at the pilot stats and decide who goes to where by their K/D ratio or destroyed ground targets, like in school yard when picking teams for football game? I_suck_at_flying goes to red side and you two, JG69_Kill'em All and JG69_Sniper of the Skies go to blue side....let's see, numbers are now 32 vs 17 but according to stats, we have now achieved absolute balance and can enjoy the evening?

Nah, if the numbers are 50 vs 10 or your choice of aircraft is not perfect for this or that, just don't go over the hottest place if there's dozens of enemies and die in seconds but be smart and for example try to intercept single planes en route, simply making bomber to drop their load before target is also beneficial for your ground troops.

We will never have true balance and I think we shouldn't even be looking for it, but to use the tools and the tactics what we have available for each situation.

Edited by LeLv30_Redwing
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also funny that this "crazy" difference mostly happens with early war planesets. nobody wants to fly early allied/vvs planes. but as soon as there is p38s and tempests, it balances itself.

those who cry most about "balance" and "too many axis" should probably look at themself. i'm not saying you have to pick a side and stay on that for the whole campaign, but if all the late war allied switch to early war germans, combined with the already "only axis" pilots, it's not gonna balance itself out anyway.

 

you can't scream "balance" but then want to fly the best planes for any given planeset because you care so much about your stats, and at the same time expect others to swap over to the inferior airplanes to "balance" your ego.

Edited by H_Stiglitz
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Totally agree with LeLv30_Redwing. This is war. War is not fair. Life ain't fair either. That's all there is into it. Killed by death never hurt you.

 

 

 

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Why is the ME(BF) 109 F4 only available on 2 plane sets and the POS G2 available on 7?  Its that simple, the only good turning airplane on the axis side is mostly never available. All the rest are energy fighters and even the F4 is not in the Spit, Yak, Mig class. 

 

jokkr

 

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