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Finnish VirtualPilots - Dynamic War

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Perhaps it's time to go Axis now then? I miss the 190

I ok whatever you guys decide, not that i miss 190 but rather i would like to master 109 a bit better.

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I agree that personal hangars as used in TAW are a pain.  I don't mind being punished for losing my own plane but as you say, having to keep checking the website to avoid getting kicked is a nuisance .  I also agree that restricting aircraft supplies so careful pilots suffer when suicidal pilots keep losing aircraft is also not fair.    I am all for making people wait five minutes after they die but I know many people get very angry at the idea.   I am not sure it is just the very big bombs that are the issue. A JU88 or He111 or A20 with many large individual bombs is just as dangerous when flown as a suicide bomb.

 

Some other ideas (that I don't know how easy they are to do) are:-

 

Force crashed or bailed (but not crash-landed & alive) pilots to take off from a rear field. Possibly put a field at extreme West & East of the map just for that purpose.  Once they land at a 'normal' field the restriction ends.

Force crashed or bailed (but not crash-landed & alive) pilots to take off from a rear field and deliver an unarmed plane to a 'normal' field.  Once they land at a 'normal' field the restriction ends.

Stop a crashed or bailed pilot from using the same aircraft next time he flies (just the next time). 

Restrict a crashed or bailed pilot to only half a normal loadout next time he flies (just the next time). 

 

The first three of the above could be a pain when flying in a squad and just one or two dies because they wont be able to relaunch in the same plane/airfield as the others. On the other hand, if they are the only ones that died then they can do their penalty while the rest of their squad are flying home.    

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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I agree that personal hangars as used in TAW are a pain. I don't mind being punished for losing my own plane but as you say, having to keep checking the website to avoid getting kicked is a nuisance . I also agree that restricting aircraft supplies so careful pilots suffer when suicidal pilots keep losing aircraft is also not fair. I am all for making people wait five minutes after they die but I know many people get very angry at the idea. I am not sure it is just the very big bombs that are the issue. A JU88 or He111 or A20 with many large individual bombs is just as dangerous when flown as a suicide bomb.

 

Some other ideas (that I don't know how easy they are to do) are:-

 

Force crashed or bailed (but not crash-landed & alive) pilots to take off from a rear field. Possibly put a field at extreme West & East of the map just for that purpose. Once they land at a 'normal' field the restriction ends.

Force crashed or bailed (but not crash-landed & alive) pilots to take off from a rear field and deliver an unarmed plane to a 'normal' field. Once they land at a 'normal' field the restriction ends.

Stop a crashed or bailed pilot from using the same aircraft next time he flies (just the next time).

Restrict a crashed or bailed pilot to only half a normal loadout next time he flies (just the next time).

 

The first three of the above could be a pain when flying in a squad and just one or two dies because they wont be able to relaunch in the same plane/airfield as the others. On the other hand, if they are the only ones that died then they can do their penalty while the rest of their squad are flying home.

I wouldn't complicate server that much, making pilot wait in a lobby will result in leaving the server, 100%.

What should count is lost aircraft not pilots life.

Personal hangar is nice idea and i like it very much, if you lose a plane you need to resupply it from rear airfield, simple as that.

We fly InWar MP campaign where system is like this and it's very immersive making pilots value their aircraft and life.

Edited by EAF_Ribbon

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What should count is lost aircraft not pilots life.

 

 

What I was thinking was that if the aim is to stop people using their bombers as suicide bombs then we also need to stop people diving vertically towards the field, dropping the bombs then bailing out.   I excluded people that crash landed and survived as it probably means they at least made some effort to survive the bomb drop and escape. Unfortunately there is no way to differentiate between people that tried to escape but died in a crash landing from people that had no intention of flying home and just crashed.    

 

Anyway, most of my ideas are probably too hard to script. I was just  talking 'Ideal World'.  My own vote (not demand) is that there should be a five minute delay after losing an aircraft. That includes ditching away from an airfield but not 'bent a prop on landing'.   If that means that a person can land at his airfield then bleed out and die before he can despawn and not get penalised then OK :-)     If Temuri want to start with just two minutes to see how it goes then OK but I am not sure it is enough to be a deterrent.  I could be wrong.    Five minutes for dying or two minutes for crash landing alive would be better but I am not sure there is a way to code two different spawn delays.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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What I was thinking was that if the aim is to stop people using their bombers as suicide bombs then we also need to stop people diving vertically towards the field, dropping the bombs then bailing out.   I excluded people that crash landed and survived as it probably means they at least made some effort to survive the bomb drop and escape. Unfortunately there is no way to differentiate between people that tried to escape but died in a crash landing from people that had no intention of flying home and just crashed.    

 

Anyway, most of my ideas are probably too hard to script. I was just  talking 'Ideal World'.  My own vote (not demand) is that there should be a five minute delay after losing an aircraft. That includes ditching away from an airfield but not 'bent a prop on landing'.   If that means that a person can land at his airfield then bleed out and die before he can despawn and not get penalised then OK :-)     If Temuri want to start with just two minutes to see how it goes then OK but I am not sure it is enough to be a deterrent.  I could be wrong.    Five minutes for dying or two minutes for crash landing alive would be better but I am not sure there is a way to code two different spawn delays.

 

 

Apparently you can't penalise loss of an aircraft, only death:

 

 

 

There's only death penalty and respawn timeout settings.

 

On second thought, I don't think a time penalty is the way to go.

 

I still think plane supply should be lowered (at least whenever there are few players on the server). I wonder if there could be some way to limit the total amount of planes that a player can expend each hour or so - at least that'd put a stop to some of the more reckless pilots, and the lower plane supply won't hit the more cautious/conscientious pilots.

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How about limiting the pilots lives per day? For example, limiting lives to 9 per day. if a player gets killed 9 times within a 24 hour period, he needs to do supply flights to replenish some lives. If a player with no lives left spawns in any other type of plane than supply, he gets chat warning and a kick after a small delay unless he despawns.

 

Pros:

  • Virtual lives matter
  • Should be quite simple to implement
  • No need for external site to check "hangar status" as life amount could be sent to player when he spawns in or uses specific chat command.
  • Any other?

 Cons:

  • Chat + kick is still a bit clumsy
  • Any other?

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I was about to say that nine lives is way too high since nobody dies that many times in 24 hours. I've only died nine times in three weeks (and I think that's too many).

 

But it appears others play differently: e.g. EAF_Ribbon has been playing constantly since yesterday evening and died at least 20 times... 

 

Yes, I think a limit on number of deaths per day should be implemented. That's a good solution to discourage overly reckless flying and suicide bombing (and 24 hour sessions - sorry Ribbon).

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Temuri,

 

This might be a fair way through the dilemma.  May be that coupled with a 2 min spawn delay for pilots upon death unless they fly non combat roles like transports and so.  5 minutes is a bit harsh especially given the current state of AI AA.  If they re jig the AI with a below novice level and something in between novice and regular, then you could deploy more AA and people could have a chance to get through it.  At the moment though as it stands, regular and above (Veteran/Ace) is to sniper orientated.

 

Would be great to have recon flights as a part of the mission profile as well but hard to get that to co-ordinate with the team and pics upon successful completion.  Maybe a future idea for the devs.


I was about to say that nine lives is way too high since nobody dies that many times in 24 hours. I've only died nine times in three weeks (and I think that's too many).

 

What if my cat takes over the controls, as they are want to do, or at least get between my controls and the screen as they demand my attention?  :biggrin:

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Would be great to have recon flights as a part of the mission profile as well but hard to get that to co-ordinate with the team and pics upon successful completion.  Maybe a future idea for the devs.

I've been thinking about recon flights too, but how to incorporate them into the mission so that people would fly them, i.e. what role would the recon flights have in the mission?

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The problem with that plan is that someone who is only playing for an hour a day can do a lot of damage with nine suicide runs.  I would say halve it.  I think that even if I was having a bad day dogfighting or tying to bomb a heavily defended tank base and getting shot down each time then I would accept that I need to run a supply run if I have been killed 5 times. I am assuming that Porky is correct in saying only *death* can be penalised so if I managed to bail or crash land half the time that is 10 sorties.    Of course a suicide pilot would bail more frequently so even 5 deaths might be 20 or 30 suicide dives where he bails from 1000m as soon as the bombs are away.

 

PS. I was about to say Porky was wrong about Ribbon dying so frequently then realised I was looking at December.  He has already died 12 times and ditched 7 times this morning! :-O (though that was over 8 hours)

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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Number of lives is of course subject to adjustment.

 

If you bail in the AA area of attack, you'll get shot (as we can put some mission finish timeout). You'll even get shot if you bail in the howitzer/rocket launcher area of attack when you reach the ground.

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The thing I'm very doubtful, is that these kamikaze pilots matter much... The amount of damage one pilot can make with a suicide run isn't probably going to be a lot. And it takes time to take off and fly back to repeat it. In the same time period I would have destroyed the whole base anyways (with someone dragging the flak).

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I was about to say that nine lives is way too high since nobody dies that many times in 24 hours. I've only died nine times in three weeks (and I think that's too many).

 

But it appears others play differently: e.g. EAF_Ribbon has been playing constantly since yesterday evening and died at least 20 times...

 

Yes, I think a limit on number of deaths per day should be implemented. That's a good solution to discourage overly reckless flying and suicide bombing (and 24 hour sessions - sorry Ribbon).

Are you jelaous cos i captured 4 airfields, destroyed 2 factories and 8 tankbases all by myself cos that doesn't sound like recklles flying and suicide bombing. ;)

Anyway i don't mention you in any post so please do the same, cos you sound pathetic!

Checking my stats say you're jelaous.

And i didn't die 20 times!

If i bother you so much just vote ban me or talk with admin about it.

 

With sniper AA at tankbases bombers will be affected by that while many pilots who only come to server for dogfight will be spared.

Btw suuicide bombers were guys in 110's.

I'm ok with any idea admins impement but don't say i fly reckless, losing 10 planes on 8tb, 4af and 2 factories is nothing.

Thank you!

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Chill Ribbon.  We were just trying to work out what a 'reasonable' amount of deaths is in 24 hours and your stats are relevant to that equation.  You died 12 times in 8 hours which for many people who only fly a few hours a day is the same as only dying 3 or 6 times in a 24 hour period.  

 

Your input as an example of someone that flies a lot is important.  If you were asked to fly a transport mission after 5 deaths would you think that fair?  Last night that would have been after about 90 minutes. 9 lives would be nearly 6 hours of flying. I know you would rather just keep flying non-stop but be reasonable,  would it make you fly  with a little more care? How many deaths in 24 hours do you feel is reasonable?  Do you even think it right to encourage people to fly with more care?

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Are you jelaous cos i captured 4 airfields, destroyed 2 factories and 8 tankbases all by myself cos that doesn't sound like recklles flying and suicide bombing. ;)

Anyway i don't mention you in any post so please do the same, cos you sound pathetic!

Checking my stats say you're jelaous.

And i didn't die 20 times!

If i bother you so much just vote ban me or talk with admin about it.

 

With sniper AA at tankbases bombers will be affected by that while many pilots who only come to server for dogfight will be spared.

Btw suuicide bombers were guys in 110's.

I'm ok with any idea admins impement but don't say i fly reckless, losing 10 planes on 8tb, 4af and 2 factories is nothing.

Thank you!

 

Porky hasn't singled you out to be vindictive or malicious, Ribbon.

You have an obscene number of pilots deaths compared to many others, even if you are achieving mission objectives. I suppose you should be honoured, you're a case-study for a possible solution! :salute:

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If i bother so much axis pilots (i see them naming me and shaming while their pilots/axis were suicide bombing, not allies) i can fly only with my squad two times per week for 1h.

But again whining about me cos i progress trought map is pathetic and so obvious not to mention childish.

I don't want to take away joy of flying on Finnish to others, just aks politely :)

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Again, as Ribbon stated, if you are ground pounding and on a low player count session, you are going to die.  Not much one can do about it if playing by objectives and not just scenic flying waiting for someone else to connect so you can try and shoot them down.

 

AI is the issue here as is lack of comms and if you are not part of a squad, especially.

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Chill Ribbon.  We were just trying to work out what a 'reasonable' amount of deaths is in 24 hours and your stats are relevant to that equation.  You died 12 times in 8 hours which for many people who only fly a few hours a day is the same as only dying 3 or 6 times in a 24 hour period.  

 

Your input as an example of someone that flies a lot is important.  If you were asked to fly a transport mission after 5 deaths would you think that fair?  Last night that would have been after about 90 minutes. 9 lives would be nearly 6 hours of flying. I know you would rather just keep flying non-stop but be reasonable,  would it make you fly  with a little more care? How many deaths in 24 hours do you feel is reasonable?  Do you even think it right to encourage people to fly with more care?

See post i made on previous page, i have experience with resupply MP campaigns and i did suggest them for Finnish.

I like that idea and find it immersive, as i did many repair and supply runs on Finnish.

Only thing bothers me when someone calling me for reckless flying and suicide bombing.

:huh:

It was meant for that porky

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Again, as Ribbon stated, if you are ground pounding and on a low player count session, you are going to die.  Not much one can do about it if playing by objectives and not just scenic flying waiting for someone else to connect so you can try and shoot them down.

 

AI is the issue here as is lack of comms and if you are not part of a squad, especially.

 

 

Well, sure, that is going to be an almost-certainty.

The alternative is that one simply waits for a squad member to show up to drag away the flak. I asked about AA last week and received a generous amount of advice from the kind folk here; it's worked a treat and now we only hit up targets if there are two or more, one to drag and the others to bag, we haven't had a loss to AA now in four days or so.

 

I am somewhat bemused with Ribbon's responses though, it seems unnecessarily aggressive. Yesterday Roblex raised the issue of resupply and wasteful pilots, Ribbon responding with an agreeable solution (fly as pairs, minimum etc etc), and also advocated that we should be more precious of the virtual life. Whilst I do not dispute your efficiency in completing the objectives Ribbon, I must ask how you reconcile the quote below with your virtual life record. What would you suggest is done to perhaps encourage pilots to be more careful?

 

 

I would also like to see improvements that will force pilots value their virtual life a bit more.

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Ribbon, I don't think it was a question of naming and shaming. Just a question of statistics, and trying to find some kind of common understanding what would be reasonable amount of virtual lives for when flying with wingmen and alone too (as already pointed out, flying alone is more dangerous).

 

And I wish I could do 24h sessions too :)

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Well, sure, that is going to be an almost-certainty.

The alternative is that one simply waits for a squad member to show up to drag away the flak. I asked about AA last week and received a generous amount of advice from the kind folk here; it's worked a treat and now we only hit up targets if there are two or more, one to drag and the others to bag, we haven't had a loss to AA now in four days or so.

 

I am somewhat bemused with Ribbon's responses though, it seems unnecessarily aggressive. Yesterday Roblex raised the issue of resupply and wasteful pilots, Ribbon responding with an agreeable solution (fly as pairs, minimum etc etc), and also advocated that we should be more precious of the virtual life. Whilst I do not dispute your efficiency in completing the objectives Ribbon, I must ask how you reconcile the quote below with your virtual life record. What would you suggest is done to perhaps encourage pilots to be more careful?

It sounded like i was flying reckless and do suicide bombing and that was only problem, naming me for that example!

I do fly a lot alone and hence die alone but looking progress i made it's not lot, i have less plane lost than whole squad on given amount of objectives.

But yes i want my virtual life goes for days or weeks, but when you fly alone over tankbase it's very hard and we all know how accurate AA Ai is, not to mention rain of bullets.

And yet i manage undamaged capture airfield, 2 tb and depot so that doesn't sound reckless flying.

Again i like idea about personal hangar even more, counting lost planes and resupplying it.

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Again i like idea about personal hangar even more, counting lost planes and resupplying it.

Hmm, maybe the personal hangar could be done so that a player has a certain number of fighters, GA, and bombers available, instead of going deeper into plane types. Then at least there wouldn't be that much need to check the hangar status from an external site, you could just get a report via chat message. We'd just like there to be a way to do this without the need for kicking when non-allowed plane was taken.

 

This would also have an effect on the importance of factories too. Currently factories repair and resupply. With personal hangars and having players take care of their hangar by flying supply missions, the factory resupply would not play as big a role.

 

That being said, perhaps we should at least first go the way of reducing the number of available aircraft on an airfield to, say, 6(?) when supplied, and increasing the factory resupply interval?

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Ribbon, I don't think it was a question of naming and shaming. Just a question of statistics, and trying to find some kind of common understanding what would be reasonable amount of virtual lives for when flying with wingmen and alone too (as already pointed out, flying alone is more dangerous).

 

And I wish I could do 24h sessions too :)

I just used my day off since rest of the week i'll be busy and probably not able to fly.....but i must admit that progress trought map hooked me badly, way too much and overline.

 

I hope you'll force some kind of individual plane resupply and yes it will make me even more careful same as others.

My suggestion is not related to lifes but rather to lost planes which is even harder.

Maybe after few lost planes long range resupply will be needed, we had that in inWar campaign and it was great.

Everybody were so caucious.

If you're going to implement that 9 lifes system than i must agree with Porky (still unmature and not nice from him) but it is too much.

Maybe after 3 deaths, one resupply!

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Maybe after few lost planes long range resupply will be needed, we had that in inWar campaign and it was great.

Everybody were so caucious.

If you're going to implement that 9 lifes system than i must agree with Porky (still unmature and not nice from him) but it is too much.

Maybe after 3 deaths, one resupply!

Yeah, like I said above, the number of lives would be subject to adjustment.

 

I also like that in InWar you need to do resupply flights. My only gripe with them in InWar is that the resupply plane doesn't have ammo at all. I don't think that makes much sense :)

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Yeah, like I said above, the number of lives would be subject to adjustment.

 

I also like that in InWar you need to do resupply flights. My only gripe with them in InWar is that the resupply plane doesn't have ammo at all. I don't think that makes much sense :)

Yes that was weird, and tricky when objectives are on your way to homebase.

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The factory resupply time is now doubled, i.e. it's now 20 minutes per tank base "hop".

Maximum amount of a single plane type at a supplied airfield is now 6.

 

Edit:

Current resupply times (in minutes):

KUBINKA supply interval: 20 (1 steps)
TEMKINO supply interval: 280 (14 steps)
SYCHEVKA supply interval: 120 (6 steps)
DUGINO supply interval: 160 (8 steps)
RZHEV supply interval: 20 (1 steps)
NOVOYE supply interval: 400 (20 steps)

 

Before anyone else mentions it, I think we'll need to change the logic with which factories are taken to the mission, so that the factories nearest to the front line will be taken to the mission (if not closed).

Edited by LLv34_Temuri
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That sounds good and reasonable. In general I think resupply as well as repair is a bit too fast, especially when it comes to larger structures. Sometimes it feels almost futile to do long ground attack sorties unless you have time for several more follow up sorties just afterwards.

 

Some logic in terms of where active factories and depots spawn would be really nice, that'd mean that between missions you can work your way through them, making the resupply/repair move further and further away from the front.

 

I'm a bit apprehensive when it comes to the max amount of single plane types, since squads larger than 6 would have to take off from different fields if they want to fly the same plane type - not to mention that it'd then be exhausted for a good while. Though, it might just be what we need, also to diversify the plane types used a little... Let's try it out and see the pros and cons.

 

I wouldn't mind the personal hangar solution either, as long as it's easy to find out how many of each plane type you have. Though, if a limited amount of lives is easier to implement (and understand for potential new players), perhaps that's the best way to go about it. I'd by up for trying any or both of those solutions.

 

 

PS. Ribbon, I didn't mean to single you out from any personal malice. I simply tried to put into perspective how wildly varying the death pr. day ratio is for players on the server - and your stats were just there at the top for me to look at and compare with. Fact is, as I said, you died 20 times in that play session from yesterday evening at 8 PM 'til 11 AM this morning (CET). And the plane loss was an additional 19 (2 DCs), making it a total of 39 planes lost in 15 hours. (EDIT: At a 3-lives limit, as you suggested, you'd have to fly 6 supply runs - going by plane loss, it'd be a lot more). As I understand it, you seem to be all for doing supply runs. That's really cool. The dedication is impressive, and again, I don't mean to put you in a bad light. You're one of the most active pilots, and most decisive, so using your stats and behaviour as an example to discuss from, and compare with my own mediocre stats, with a different play style, made sense. Jealous? Maybe. Hey, I know I'm not going to rival you in terms of total amount of points, ever, so I'm trying to reach (and stay on) the "best live pilots" list instead.  ;)

Edited by Porky

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Maximum amount of a single plane type at a supplied airfield is now 6.

 

 

I don't want to be awkward but that will probably cause my squad to fly elsewhere as we usually have at least six pilots on squad nights.  It is quite likely that when we come in at 20:00 most of the fields will only have two or three of each type, maybe none, so we will be faced with the choice of taking off in pairs from three different fields,  flying different aircraft that have different speeds and flying styles (eg Turn & Burn and Boom & Zoom) or just going to another server.  From past experience I know that some are very vocal about hating the first two choices and we will end up leaving.   I am not making threats to get things my way,  just giving feedback on how it might affect numbers.  There don't seem to be  that many large squads so you might find it is OK to lose a few.

 

We would happily live with only being able to get six matched aircraft from a rear field or downed pilots having to fetch a replacement from the rear or wait 5 minutes to fly again but if we join the server and see we can't all fly together we will probably just try another server. Just being honest.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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So after all this discussion I am left slightly confused.

What then are the "Supply" plane options for at the moment? The first step of something yet to be implemented, the remnant of something that was taken out?

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I don't want to be awkward but that will probably cause my squad to fly elsewhere as we usually have at least six pilots on squad nights. It is quite likely that when we come in at 20:00 most of the fields will only have two or three of each type, maybe none, so we will be faced with the choice of taking off in pairs from three different fields, flying different aircraft that have different speeds and flying styles (eg Turn & Burn and Boom & Zoom) or just going to another server. From past experience I know that some are very vocal about hating the first two choices and we will end up leaving. I am not making threats to get things my way, just giving feedback on how it might affect numbers. There don't seem to be that many large squads so you might find it is OK to lose a few.

 

We would happily live with only being able to get six matched aircraft from a rear field or downed pilots having to fetch a replacement from the rear or wait 5 minutes to fly again but if we join the server and see we can't all fly together we will probably just try another server. Just being honest.

I agree that will be big problem for squadrons.

Personal hangar idea seems best in my opinion, if it's not difficult to implement.

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So after all this discussion I am left slightly confused.

What then are the "Supply" plane options for at the moment? The first step of something yet to be implemented, the remnant of something that was taken out?

Currently, they supply the plane amount in the airfields.

 

If we implement personal hangar / virtual lives, the supply planes will supply your personal hangar / add virtual lives.

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Ok, that's what I was hoping.

Here then my two cents about the changes to planes and resupply:

I see where Roblex is coming from and it definitely is a valid concern. How about keeping the planes at 10 - or something higher than 6 in any case - but reducing the resupply (not necessarily the repair) rate even more? This would allow bigger groups to get the amount of planes up relatively quickly for a squad night while also making plane losses noticeable and ALSO encouraging supply flights. Maybe with a chat message when a field is empty so people have a better chance to know this.

 

/edit

With personal hangars that's a moot point of course. But in the meantime and all.

Edited by wellenbrecher

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Won't the "personal hangars" still depend on plane supply in the airfields? So, even though you may have permission to take up another Yak-1b e.g. if it isn't in supply at the airfields, you can't use it.

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Won't the "personal hangars" still depend on plane supply in the airfields? So, even though you may have permission to take up another Yak-1b e.g. if it isn't in supply at the airfields, you can't use it.

That would mean tracking the personal hangar for each airfield. Hmm...

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I imagined it that no matter what airfield you choose your personal hangar status follows you, so airfield conditions apply only on individual to avoid (cheat) switching to other airfield just to avoid resupply.

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Hmm.. Personal hangar PER airfield. I actually like that idea. One would need to make supply missions regularly to replenish the field he wants to operate from. Still needs to be enforced with kicks though :-/

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I imagined it that no matter what airfield you choose your personal hangar status follows you, so airfield conditions apply only on individual to avoid (cheat) switching to other airfield just to avoid resupply.

Would also mean that you should be able to ferry planes from rear fields to frontline fields...

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