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=LG=Kathon

Tactical Air War

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Posted (edited)

I would like to apologize to @Letka_13/Kami- as I team killed him today. Not my best TAW, I just keep fucking things up.

Edited by III/JG52_Al-Azraq

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On 3/2/2019 at 10:17 AM, BraveSirRobin said:

That would be a great feature.  A lot of the chute killing could also be eliminated by allowing people to exit the mission immediately instead of the long delay that is currently in place.  If you choose not to exit, then you don’t really have a lot to complain about when you are chute killed.

 

I was (somehow) under the impression you needed to wait for your chute to reach the ground in order to get a bailout rather than death. Is that wrong? Instead if I bail I should immediately hit the finish mission button? (I know I still have 15 seconds to be shot, but that might be a lot less than waiting for the chute to reach the ground).

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1 hour ago, Alonzo said:

 

I was (somehow) under the impression you needed to wait for your chute to reach the ground in order to get a bailout rather than death. Is that wrong? Instead if I bail I should immediately hit the finish mission button? (I know I still have 15 seconds to be shot, but that might be a lot less than waiting for the chute to reach the ground).

 

You can exit as soon as the option shows up on the screen.  In WoL you can get out almost immediately.  So there is less chute killing.  In TAW you have to wait.  You don't have to wait until you get to the ground.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/14/2016 at 10:32 PM, =LG=Kathon said:

 

* You may fly only on one side during the whole campaign!

Registration is mandatory!

 

I thought It was okay to fly on the other side if you create another account or change your name? There are directions in the manual on TAW. This rule is from the first page in this forum thread, has this rule changed?

Edited by =IL2AU=astrix_au

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Im sure you're upset, but players don't know you're a transport plane or a plane meant to attack their objectives. They only know you're an enemy plane.

 

Why would you expect players to not shoot down an enemy plane in an online war?

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1 hour ago, [TWB]Sketch said:

Im sure you're upset, but players don't know you're a transport plane or a plane meant to attack their objectives. They only know you're an enemy plane.

 

Why would you expect players to not shoot down an enemy plane in an online war?

Yeah I'm pretty sure enemy transport is always a legit target. Otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to shoot trucks either.

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TAW right now with the current "I just yolo airfields" gameplay isnt fun.
Nobody cares about tanks, air combat is dead.

its flat out boring.

just my 2 cents

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9 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

TAW right now with the current "I just yolo airfields" gameplay isnt fun.
Nobody cares about tanks, air combat is dead.

its flat out boring.

just my 2 cents

Yes we will provide some limitations to raping low level airfields and depots. those targets should be only level bombing targets.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, =LG=Coldman said:

Yes we will provide some limitations to raping low level airfields and depots. those targets should be only level bombing targets.



Ty. Sounds good.. we had many good battles in the past. I hope that comes back.

really cant imagine a solution. Maybe super strict death and aircraft loss penalties. Dunno

Edited by DerSheriff

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no we think about AAA respawn every map on depot and airfields or even every 30min

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55 minutes ago, =LG=Coldman said:

no we think about AAA respawn every map on depot and airfields or even every 30min

 

 

Clever.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, =LG=Coldman said:

Yes we will provide some limitations to raping low level airfields and depots. those targets should be only level bombing targets.

 

If that’s the objective (I.e. airfields and depots are meant for level bombing - or maybe dive bombing from medium altitude by bombers/attack aircraft), then maybe just make the AAA at these locations indestructible... especially the small caliber stuff that’s deadly at low altitude.

Edited by AKA_Relent

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Its fantastic right now, literally just 15 Axis to 0 VVS circling the one remaining AF so that no VVS can spawn....

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My 2 cents on the current balance and to sum up the issue...
1.AAAs are not strong and accurate especially covering strategic objects (AFs, Depots). One single F2 can attrack all their fire while others destroy everything.
I have seen many times that 5-10 109s (F2 and F4) with bombs can stay over the red fields and bomb/shoot AF objects for a long time, fighting few red planes covering those AFs, bombinb AF targets and ignoring the defense as it's almost completely useles.
2.Small fighters can make huge damage on industrial objects and they can easily kill AAAs spending very little ammo. 
I have checked some pilot's logs. It's a good source to find out how they exploit the server. The current system still favors suicidal/risky attack on strategic targets.
Fighters with small few bombs and just guns make so much damage on big objects that even if they got killed or captured and lost some score it doesn't matter as the damage they induced remains huge.
They just take F2 for that, and if it's crashed... fine, no big deal for them, next mission they will get it again automatically and will repeat.
Taking into consideration poor visibility and advantage in speed, they can always attack successfully ground targets with little to none resistance.

That's why the tactic by the blue side is obvious now and many red pilots have noticed it already.
Blue pilots (advanced pilots) don't spend too much time on useles targets like tanks, convoys and fly straight to bomb/attack AFs and Depots and nothing can stop them from doing it.
They fly free/cheap/restored planes to attack targets while more advanced planes stay above covering them. Add to it the fact that most of the time blues have the number advantage.

Not sure what would be the solution but definitely the TAW devs need to address it ASAP.

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I was going to play some and try to see what I can do, but it's 10-1 (with me the only red) and as soon as you spawn you get strafed at the only remaining airfield. That's not worth my time. 

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Historical WW2 airfields apparently had upwards of 300 AAA guns defending them. Attacking an airfield was a precarious undertaking, and even with a full squadron you would expect heavy losses. Personally I think AAA at player airfields with a 30 minute (or even faster) respawn is appropriate. You could even have a long respawn on heavier AAA, and short respawn on light machine guns. I think if you had planes still active at an airfield, you'd have guys manning machine guns at least.

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Posted (edited)

Few thoughts on the solution:

1. Obviously more AAAs (especially heavy/long distance/large caliber)and they should cover larger area around the AF/Depots located not only close to the objects, fields, etc. but much further.

2. Much stronger defense by anti-plane close distance machine guns especially if the AF is almost intact. Basically you fly low, you are dead before you can even start shooting.

3. All AAAs can re-spawn,  timing for re-spawn can be adjusted based on the analysis.

3. Longer penalty time if a plane was shot by AAAs that belong to the AF/Depot (up to 30mins or even more) and the plane didn't make it home/friendly territory.

The idea is that the enemy should focus on the defenses surrounding AFs, and only after the defense is down they can try to attack AFs and avoid great casualties. Probably it makes sense to have the number of AAAs dependent on the defense line. Stronger and healthier the defense = stronger AF AAAs. 

Thanks!

 

Edited by 72AGs_Obi
Correction
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30 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

Historical WW2 airfields apparently had upwards of 300 AAA guns defending them. Attacking an airfield was a precarious undertaking, and even with a full squadron you would expect heavy losses. Personally I think AAA at player airfields with a 30 minute (or even faster) respawn is appropriate. You could even have a long respawn on heavier AAA, and short respawn on light machine guns. I think if you had planes still active at an airfield, you'd have guys manning machine guns at least.

Yep, and since it would negatively affect performance to have that many AAA/AA guns at an airfield, I’ll repeat what I suggested above:

 

If that’s the objective (I.e. airfields and depots are meant for level bombing - or maybe dive bombing from medium altitude by bombers/attack aircraft), then maybe just make the AAA at these locations indestructible... especially the small caliber stuff that’s deadly at low altitude.

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On 2/23/2019 at 7:44 AM, SYN_Repent said:

 

no it’s not ok, to land on the enemy’s side of the lines, for any reason, and take off again, like I’ve said, doing such thing is not in the spirit of this server, take it elsewhere. 

 

Hi there,

 

I would like to know what exactly is wrong here. 

 

This pilot took off, landed, and then took off again to fly back home. I am struggling to understand what all the fuss is about with landing the airplane, then taking off to go back home. 

 

How on on earth is this against some kind of ‘spirit of the server’?

 

Regards 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Hi there,

 

I would like to know what exactly is wrong here. 

 

This pilot took off, landed, and then took off again to fly back home. I am struggling to understand what all the fuss is about with landing the airplane, then taking off to go back home. 

 

How on on earth is this against some kind of ‘spirit of the server’?

 

Regards 

 

perhaps do a little more research, it was a known game exploiter who did this, the question is why would he do such a thing? in order to exploit the game some more is the answer, and through self admission, would do "anything to help blues win"......that only helps back this up.

 

how does it go against the spirit of the server?? just because we are on opposing sides, it doesnt mean we cant play fair, and be friendly, we are a small community, we should act as so and not think of little exploits to fanatacily help your "side" win.

 

it would appear he, and his forum alts are banned from the forums, that speaks volumes about him and the way he thinks the guy doesnt like to follow any rules.

Edited by SYN_Repent

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Posted (edited)

 

Knights Of The Air tried the 'Lots Of Lethal AAA'  approach and took it off again because it was not working.    No matter how lethal you set it,  a fast diving fighter or bomber will almost always fly straight through and out the other side without being shot down.

 

Personally I support the idea of banning people for 30 minutes if they get *hit* by field light AAA (not heavy).   It may seem very harsh if it happened to everyone and would cause people to leave but it would only affect people flying low over a spawn field.

A crazy idea but is it possible to create indestructible AI ACE  fighters that only fly below a certain height to cap the airfield?    Maybe PE2s & JU88s with Ace gunners would work better 🙂

 

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, =LG=Coldman said:

Yes we will provide some limitations to raping low level airfields and depots. those targets should be only level bombing targets.

 

Wrong decision.

 

1. Both teams can attack AF and depots. As we played both sides we used it all the time in the same way (at least on depots) . The only one reason why the red team cannot attack AF in the same way is that the red team almost all the time is outnumbered (first 4 maps at least) .

 

Solutions:

 

1. Repair the damaged objects faster, if they were damaged and your team was outnumbered. (For example, last mission the blue team had 70 flight hours, the red team had 60 hours, the repair should be done with the coef 1.2:     Coef = CEILING.MATH (70/60).

 

2. Allow the team that was outnumbered to use the damaged AF for landing. (Make it active but add only transport planes to take off). That will reduce the number of losses for the outnumbered team.

 

3. Modify the durability of the hangars (now the every 20mm shell can damage it for 1.33..1.66%). +20% will be enough.

 

 

Edited by Norz

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SYN_Repent said:

 

perhaps do a little more research, it was a known game exploiter who did this, the question is why would he do such a thing? in order to exploit the game some more is the answer, and through self admission, would do "anything to help blues win"......that only helps back this up.

 

how does it go against the spirit of the server?? just because we are on opposing sides, it doesnt mean we cant play fair, and be friendly, we are a small community, we should act as so and not think of little exploits to fanatacily help your "side" win.

 

it would appear he, and his forum alts are banned from the forums, that speaks volumes about him and the way he thinks the guy doesnt like to follow any rules.

 

Hang on a second.  Admittedly I didn't witness this shenanigans, but what is wrong with landing in enemy territory and then taking off again? Is it against the ‘spirit of the server’? He landed and then took off again- what business is it to you? I feel I'm missing something here. What exactly did he do to arouse so much drama?

 

RGDS

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins

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1 hour ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

No matter how lethal you set it,  a fast diving fighter or bomber will almost always fly straight through and out the other side without being shot down.

 

 

Yes, but there's significant difference between "going in fast - going out even faster" and circling around depo for 15 minutes and dropping bombs one by one. But AA respawning every mission is a good idea - you can still perform cooridinated, mass attack, with heavy loses most likely, but it makes multiple raids to wipe AA by few pilots, and then go in and bomb out depo in next missions impossible.

 

The problem is not in the low level attacks themselves, but in the fact they can be performed by 3-5 pilots, repetedly flying over AF/depos, killing few AA guns, then dying, regaining plane, flying in next mission, dying, and so on untill they wipe out all AA in the course of few missions. On previous TAW I participated in similar low-level Jabo flight on enemy airfield, but we flew in circa 25 Fw-190s, and sustained heavy loses. It was fun and we hit the AF badly, but it was coordinated action of few squadrons, not few people, that can replenish their loses faster than AF are able to repair its defences. Respawn of AA solves this problem, as it turns it into war of attrition - if the AA respawns faster than airplanes, these attacks can't be performed constantly, forcing pilots to rebuild reserves in hangar by performing other types of activities (attacking defences, tanks, long range level bombing, fighter patrols etc.) before they can throw all of their planes on AF/depo to clear the way for bombers. So therefore I am for respawning AA every mission.


 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, =/Hospiz/=Szopen715 said:

flying in next mission, dying, and so on untill they wipe out all AA in the course of few missions. 

Just for your info. You need +3CM to get your plane back.

 

As i can calculate, it will not help to satisfy your scenario.

Edited by Norz

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34 minutes ago, Norz said:

Just for your info. You need +3CM to get your plane back.

 

As i can calculate, it will not help to satisfy your scenario.

no? there is +1 fighter plane always every mission...

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Posted (edited)

These type of attacks are not as suicidial as you might think because the defending side has to predict the attack and bring enough players to actually be able to defend it. VVS is especially in a bad spot because even a 109 with an empty bomb rack will perform very good.

 

This is also the core of the problem. As long as the defenders have to completely predict the target, route and altitude of the enemy aircrafts there is no way that this "spamming" meta will change.

 

Another major problem though is in my opinion the mentality of certain people. I think that IL2 and TAW especially is for mutual enjoyment. Winning is not everything. This is not an e-sport title and it will never be one. It is a simulation. Of course it is nice to win and everyone is trying to achieve this goal but not at the cost of ruining the gamemode altogether and in my opinion the current TAW is despite its very good changes and the constant effort of the devs to improve it at the brink of getting destroyed by those people. The TAW devs simply don't have the means (time, money, access to the game itself) to stop people who constantly try to exploit balance and even if they were able to do that, the resources would have been better spend in other improvements. 

Edited by Operatsiya_Ivy
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Posted (edited)

Rules about airfields and depots did not change almost all TAWs before. It is said that Depots and airfields are strategic targets for level bombers and organised groups and trough all TAWs all pilots respect that and we had fun flying as strategic bombers trough whole map to bomb targets and fighter pilots who fly over depots for almost 1 hour to defend it. It was fun. but last 2 TAWs some people came and ruin our perspective and abuse our gentelmen's rule only to win as fast as it is possible no matter what the cost is. We want restore this philosophy and sportmanship to TAW. What do You think about it guys?

Edited by =LG=Coldman
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26 minutes ago, =LG=Coldman said:

We want restore this philosophy and sportmanship to TAW. What do You think about it guys?

 

As long as some people don't change their mentality, any gentlemen's rule is dead and making changes to stop them from finding another way to win as fast as possible is a catch up game that you won't be able to win i am afraid. 

 

2 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

Almost 80% of those sorties ended as LANDED or IN FLIGHT. They died in 9 sorties out of 100. 

 

Thanks for giving stats that further prove my point. 

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1 minute ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

As long as some people don't change their mentality, any gentlemen's rule is dead and making changes to stop them from finding another way to win as fast as possible is a catch up game that you won't be able to win i am afraid. 

 

Thanks for giving stats that further prove my point. 

 

Do i undestand it correctly? Most players, who like to kill a lot of planes want to stay on one map longer than it is right now? Ok, just change the repair % for the depots and AFs.

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4 minutes ago, Norz said:

 

Do i undestand it correctly? Most players, who like to kill a lot of planes want to stay on one map longer than it is right now? Ok, just change the repair % for the depots and AFs.

 

No.

 

It's not about staying longer on a map and definitely not about being able to shoot down more planes. It's about the general gameplay that evolved. Maps that are over relatively quickly is just one symptom that some people might not like but the cause of it is the real problem.

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Kathon, and what about sorties in which they didn't attack depo itself, but AA guns covering it? Can you check plane loss rate there, or is there no way to tell if the AA was destroyed on depo/AF or somewhere else?

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8 minutes ago, =/Hospiz/=Szopen715 said:

Kathon, and what about sorties in which they didn't attack depo itself, but AA guns covering it? Can you check plane loss rate there, or is there no way to tell if the AA was destroyed on depo/AF or somewhere else?

I should have included it as well. But it's not easy and fast task because I have to analyze distance between pilot kill event and depot (check if pilot was killed 3km from the depot for example). I will try to do it.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

I will try to do it.

Thank You very much. Can You also add an average aircraft loss rate of every pilot with, let's say, over 5h/20 sorties for comparition? I am kinda curious how it looks.

Edited by =/Hospiz/=Szopen715

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Hang on a second.  Admittedly I didn't witness this shenanigans, but what is wrong with landing in enemy territory and then taking off again? Is it against the ‘spirit of the server’? He landed and then took off again- what business is it to you? I feel I'm missing something here. What exactly did he do to arouse so much drama?

 

RGDS

 

Go about 10 pages back and read, I can’t be bothered explaining to you, especially with that attitude of “what business is it to you”.........

Edited by SYN_Repent

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Posted (edited)
5 часов назад, =LG=Coldman сказал:

Rules about airfields and depots did not change almost all TAWs before. It is said that Depots and airfields are strategic targets for level bombers and organised groups and trough all TAWs all pilots respect that and we had fun flying as strategic bombers trough whole map to bomb targets and fighter pilots who fly over depots for almost 1 hour to defend it. It was fun. but last 2 TAWs some people came and ruin our perspective and abuse our gentelmen's rule only to win as fast as it is possible no matter what the cost is. We want restore this philosophy and sportmanship to TAW. What do You think about it guys?

People's mentality (just a fact from the humane's nature) can't be changed most of the time, but the server's rules can. The example is the chute killers... they will find any excuse for doing it as long as they enjoy it. So making the consequences of attacking AFs and Depots unbearable is the only way to have them stopped doing it.

I don't think there are many flaws in the current server's system. And the good thing we can spot them pretty fast and the devs can address them to minimize the impact to the game's spirit and community. Banning people is not the solution as well as they might find another way to sneak in and destroy the everyone's experience only because they think/believe that what they do is right and legit.  

Edited by 72AGs_Obi
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, =LG=Coldman said:

 but last 2 TAWs some people came and ruin our perspective and abuse our gentelmen's rule only to win as fast as it is possible no matter what the cost is. We want restore this philosophy and sportmanship to TAW. What do You think about it guys?

 

At last, there we have it, sportsmanship, community spirits, and fair play.............right now you have some guys playing this like its real war, im surprised they sleep at night they seem so tense, and these are the guys who are ruining it for the majority of us.

Edited by SYN_Repent
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15 часов назад, MrBoogieMan сказал:

No1 is going to want to play with a 30 min death pen... are you high? you'll just kill the game. 

Maybe just add more aaa? for a suggestion... instead of adding all these unnecessary rules?...

Adding more AAAs might have no to little effect as someone previously mentioned. There might be some hard-coded logic how AAAs focus on the target or something else so we might find some other way to penalize exploiters. So it's just an alternative idea to consider. Rules are needed to plug the holes for exploiters. I doubt these rules will kill the game, they won't penalize normal players, but cheaters. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Hang on a second.  Admittedly I didn't witness this shenanigans, but what is wrong with landing in enemy territory and then taking off again? Is it against the ‘spirit of the server’? He landed and then took off again- what business is it to you? I feel I'm missing something here. What exactly did he do to arouse so much drama?

 

RGDS

Hows this for ya...landing on an enemy airfield where aaa can either not hit you, or its down, then, anytime someone spawns in, shoot them with your gunner.......second transgression on another server.....land a tank busting aircraft on a road, and taxi to the tank column, and use the cannon while taxi'ing around to destroy it, ala P-39 action....then there's the action in question several pages ago in which there are several theories about what he did, but who cares, hopefully he's gone or if another alt pops up it'll be instantly recognizable. This is a flight simulation game, dont expect to treat a competitive campaign like this like your playing GTA V.

Edited by Banzaii

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