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Tactical Air War

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1 hour ago, xJammer said:

23mm is not in the slightest equivalent to the gunpods. 23mm enables the lagg to destroy 2-3 tanks on top of the bomb load that it carries.  Gunpods also make 109s mostly into sitting ducks with the weight and drag they introduce. 

 

Not true. Please study your info before flooding again, like you did with Pe2 saying it's a free plane +1 when manual clearly says it's not. The Bf109F4 can carry 4x50kg bombs, able to kill 4 tanks also. More than equivalent. If there are unlimited gunpods for 109F4 and G2, then don´t limit VYa23mm on Lagg-3 during map #4 and beyond.

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In my opinion the VYa23 is fine as it is. 

 

As already stated a couple of times, TAW is trying to have a semi historical approach while also being fair. The availability/limitation of the VYa-23mm is a good example of making it available for balance reasons but only limited because of historical accuracy. In that regard i would like to see the Macci gunpods get treated the same.

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Just now, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

 

Not true. Please study your info before flooding again, like you did with Pe2 saying it's a free plane +1 when manual clearly says it's not. The Bf109F4 can carry 4x50kg bombs, able to kill 4 tanks also. More than equivalent. If there are unlimited gunpods for 109F4 and G2, then don´t limit VYa23mm on Lagg-3 during map #4 and beyond.

 

 

I'd agree with you when 109 would be able to mount gunpods along with the bomb rack ;) Please enough with your poor attempts at trying to discredit people who disagree with you. My knowledge of TAW ruleset has nothing to do with my knowledge of aircraft capabilities. 

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1 hour ago, xJammer said:

I'd agree with you when 109 would be able to mount gunpods along with the bomb rack ;) Please enough with your poor attempts at trying to discredit people who disagree with you. My knowledge of TAW ruleset has nothing to do with my knowledge of aircraft capabilities. 

 

No, you give wrong information and can´t tolerate when people exposes it. The 23mm on Lagg-3 is not for tanks, but is restricted for Air to Air issues; otherwise 37mm would banned as well. So if we talk about tanks, both 109F4 and Lagg3 same capabilities. When at air to air, when 109F4 and 109G2 has gunpods unlimited it's fair the same for Lagg3.

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I would like to see planes as historical. If 23 mm was not available for large numbers dont put it. If gun pods were not available on the date same.

Same with I16 or mc202 with gunpods 

Hs duck planes were too few as well. I dont care too much about balance with the planeset just make it historical. Put more tank columns on the red side or whatever. Russians were not also carring flack with columns on their way to make the war. 

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Good idea chima.

Apply restrictions on gunpods via damage of depots sounds good.

 

Gera, i think a totally historical plane set will be the best solution... but unfortunately not enough planes available for recreate 100 historical . 

 

TAW system i think is the better approximation  , and always can try be tweaked. 

 

Edited by 666GIAP_Tumu
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3 hours ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

 

 

No, you give wrong information and can´t tolerate when people exposes it. The 23mm on Lagg-3 is not for tanks, but is restricted for Air to Air issues; otherwise 37mm would banned as well. So if we talk about tanks, both 109F4 and Lagg3 same capabilities. When at air to air, when 109F4 and 109G2 has gunpods unlimited it's fair the same for Lagg3.

 

 

I'm not giving you a historical reason why 23mm was banned. I'm giving you my assessment as to why I would make it more scarce - it is an incredible jack-of-all trades weapon. Hunt bombers with it, hunt tanks with it. 1-shot pilots with it. But anyhow, I think you should consider other balance issues outside of the 23mm. Remember that 1ton bombs on he111 are available under depot condition only too - you don't have pe2 500kgs depending on it.

Edited by xJammer

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Just now, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Sure, I'll give up 500kg bombs on the Pe-2 - as long as I can have a +1 combat Peshka every map.  

 

 

😄 Only if blues get +1 ju88

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Is there an easy way to see how many times airfields were taken by paratroopers during a map?

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Are people aware of flairs? Find it disgusting how some people use landing lights when under attack. Makes this server look like arcade sometimes. 

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I think the problem with bombs is well solved. Everyone with their advantages. 

 

P2 has just 500kg bombs but on the other hand climbs much faster, is well defended and is more versatile. 

On the other hand He 111 is much slower, clims slow as hell and on the air is a sittind duck for any fighter so the only advantage it has, is that it can carry bigger bombs. 

A P2 squad can make double or triple the sorties than a german squad of bombers with a better chance to survive. Depots and arfields had the targets very sprayed so anyways you have to aim and to use almost one bomb per target so big bombs are not as overpowered as with the first TAW edition where you could go to a depot and get 40 ground targets. 

 

Edited by E69_geramos109
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Some LW guys seem to be traumatized by Pe2. The Pe-2 is not the monster you have nightmares with. You mention He-111 which is a bad comparison with the Peshka, you should compare it to Ju-88; Pe2 faster and a bit tougher, Ju-88 can carry twice the bombload of Pe2, and cause more damage with it's spread; both are versitile, but the Ju88 can kill as much tanks in one pass with it's carpet bomblets capacity. After that, LW has one more strategic bomber, the He-111, and not forget BF110 as fast as a Pe2 able to carry more bombload and after it releases them you have a very dangerous fighter able to kill 4 il2+Pe2 and even go toe to toe with VVS fighters. Oh, and on top of that, Ju-87 with it's big bombs, although it's a weak plane. So yes, balanced, but LW has the edge regarding bombs. 

 

And please, no more Pe-2 fantasies, with the fighters VVS has up to map 6/7 we can not kill more than 2 LW bombers if we are lucky, sometimes expending all ammo on a single LW bomber. On the other hand...you can kill 5 Peshkas with a single FW. Yes, FIVE, it seems is not the mighty plane you guys want the community to believe=> https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=49794&name=Operation_Ivy
 

 

Edited by ECV56_Chimango
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Ok, here is some quick and dirty stats. So far LW captured cities 25 times by tanks, airfields 16 times by paratroopers, and damaged airfields by paratroopers 49 times. Below is the list of events. What do you guys think? 

 

Spoiler

Mission #3: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 62%
Mission #4: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 67%
Mission #5: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 100%
Mission #5: City Ivanovskoe was captured
Mission #9: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 100%
Mission #10: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 100%
Mission #12: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 100%
Mission #13: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 100%
Mission #14: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 100%
Mission #15: Airfield Lotoshino was captured by paratroopers
Mission #17: City Dyatlovo was captured
Mission #20: City Brykovo was captured
Mission #22: Paratroopers damaged airfield Solodilovo to 57%
Mission #23: Paratroopers damaged airfield Solodilovo to 65%
Mission #42: City Lotoshino was captured
Mission #43: City Staritsa was captured
Mission #48: Paratroopers damaged airfield Brykovo to 67%
Mission #53: City Staritsa was captured
Mission #65: City Ryabinki was captured
Mission #79: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 100%
Mission #80: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 100%
Mission #81: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 96%
Mission #82: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 100%
Mission #82: City Gzhatsk was captured
Mission #90: Airfield Zenino was captured by paratroopers
Mission #90: Paratroopers damaged airfield Maloyaroslavec to 70%
Mission #91: Airfield Maloyaroslavec was captured by paratroopers
Mission #91: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 65%
Mission #93: City Mjatlevo was captured
Mission #95: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 77%
Mission #100: Airfield Temkino was captured by paratroopers
Mission #102: Airfield Maloyaroslavec was captured by paratroopers
Mission #104: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 88%
Mission #105: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 94%
Mission #106: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 100%
Mission #107: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 100%
Mission #108: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 100%
Mission #114: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 96%
Mission #115: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 100%
Mission #116: Paratroopers damaged airfield Gzhatsk to 100%
Mission #125: City Dyatlovo was captured
Mission #128: Paratroopers damaged airfield Staritsa to 92%
Mission #129: Airfield Staritsa was captured by paratroopers
Mission #135: Airfield Simonkovo was captured by paratroopers
Mission #136: Paratroopers damaged airfield Brykovo to 79%
Mission #138: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 100%
Mission #139: Paratroopers damaged airfield Solodilovo to 70%
Mission #140: Paratroopers damaged airfield Solodilovo to 81%
Mission #140: Airfield Lotoshino was captured by paratroopers
Mission #142: Paratroopers damaged airfield Solodilovo to 78%
Mission #149: Paratroopers damaged airfield Lotoshino to 62%
Mission #152: City Staritsa was captured
Mission #154: Paratroopers damaged airfield Simonkovo to 72%
Mission #165: City Verh. Tsaritsinsky was captured
Mission #171: Paratroopers damaged airfield Kachalinskaya to 79%
Mission #173: Paratroopers damaged airfield Karpovka to 59%
Mission #173: Paratroopers damaged airfield Kachalinskaya to 85%
Mission #173: City Peskovatka was captured
Mission #174: Airfield Kachalinskaya was captured by paratroopers
Mission #174: City Karpovka was captured
Mission #175: Airfield Abganerovo was captured by paratroopers
Mission #178: Paratroopers damaged airfield Erzovka to 81%
Mission #181: City Varvarovka was captured
Mission #187: Paratroopers damaged airfield Mal. Chapurniki to 70%
Mission #188: Paratroopers damaged airfield Mal. Chapurniki to 76%
Mission #188: Airfield Erzovka was captured by paratroopers
Mission #188: City Abganerovo was captured
Mission #189: Paratroopers damaged airfield Mal. Chapurniki to 83%
Mission #193: Paratroopers damaged airfield Mal. Chapurniki to 65%
Mission #193: City Mal. Chapurniki was captured
Mission #203: City Shkolniy was captured
Mission #207: City Erzovka was captured
Mission #208: Airfield Mal. Chapurniki was captured by paratroopers
Mission #214: City Leninsk was captured
Mission #219: City Peskovatka was captured
Mission #221: City Buzinovka was captured
Mission #222: City Gromoslavka was captured
Mission #227: Paratroopers damaged airfield Abganerovo to 100%
Mission #229: Airfield Zhutovo was captured by paratroopers
Mission #229: City Draganov was captured
Mission #231: Paratroopers damaged airfield Abganerovo to 100%
Mission #233: Paratroopers damaged airfield Abganerovo to 100%
Mission #234: City Abganerovo was captured
Mission #242: Paratroopers damaged airfield Buzinovka to 67%
Mission #243: Paratroopers damaged airfield Buzinovka to 72%
Mission #243: Paratroopers damaged airfield Sadovoye to 100%
Mission #244: Paratroopers damaged airfield Buzinovka to 100%
Mission #244: Airfield Sadovoye was captured by paratroopers
Mission #246: Airfield Peskovatka was captured by paratroopers
Mission #252: Airfield Buzinovka was captured by paratroopers
 

 

Edited by mincer
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4 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

I think the problem with bombs is well solved. Everyone with their advantages. 

 

P2 has just 500kg bombs but on the other hand climbs much faster, is well defended and is more versatile. 

On the other hand He 111 is much slower, clims slow as hell and on the air is a sittind duck for any fighter so the only advantage it has, is that it can carry bigger bombs. 

A P2 squad can make double or triple the sorties than a german squad of bombers with a better chance to survive. Depots and arfields had the targets very sprayed so anyways you have to aim and to use almost one bomb per target so big bombs are not as overpowered as with the first TAW edition where you could go to a depot and get 40 ground targets. 

 

 

I think that these planes are actually under-served by the architecture of the multiplayer program itself.  

 

Just a fantasy of mine:

 

1.  Server capacity being effectively tripled or quadrupled.

 

2. He-111s having good reason to fly round-trips end-to-end of the maps.

 

3. Many more static objectives such as defense positions all along the front line - not just at key points/turn phases and multiple factories/depots for each team.

 

4. Attack/defense objectives dynamically generating within the mission instead of between mission timeouts giving planes like Pe-2 reason to loiter over patrol points until one comes up.

    Imagine, for example, patrolling the seas of the Kuban map and finding nothing, then receiving a radio message that an enemy shipping convoy, battle group or submarine has been discovered and to check the map  for an approximate location.  Pe-2s and Ju-88s among other plane types would have a whole new dynamic to work with.  Of course there would be developing objectives on ground as well for fighters, attackers and bombers to react to.  

 

I also think that if points 1, 2 and 3 at least came into being, then loadout limitations could become a moot point as well, and ALL could be unlocked.

 

But like I said, it's just my personal dream of what I'd like to see. 

37 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 

...with the fighters VVS has up to map 6/7 we can not kill more than 2 LW bombers if we are lucky, sometimes expending all ammo on a single LW bomber. On the other hand...you can kill 5 Peshkas with a single FW. Yes, FIVE....
 

 

I was thinking about this earlier.  We don't have the 111-H2 but it took a 3-5 second dead-close burst from 6x or 8x .303 coming out of Spitfires and Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain to take one down.  By comparison most VVS planes are set up in such a way that it seems they were intended for skill snap shots into fighter cockpits and radiators. Yes, even with cannon configurations. 

Meanwhile, the 190 was well armed and well stocked with ammo, could potentially de-wing B-17s with a 1 second snap shot, and provided there was no taken damage, rinse and repeat until the fuel gauge said "RTB".  

So, yes, with the increase in LW fighter capabilities does make the Pe-2 less scary and VVS is hard-pressed to have adequately armed fighters until later in the war.  That said, there is really nothing unrealistic about 190s having the ability to rain a metric f==k-ton of lead onto many targets and have ammo to spare.     

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Also, why are not paratroopers drop zones shown on the front page map and VVS maps? I am pretty sure that many TAW newbies (like me) are simply unaware of their existence.

Edited by mincer

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Capture airfields by landing a legal cheat of the part of the Luftwaffe.

It is not clear the logic in which the tank column seized the enemy airfield can not make it valid in the next mission.

Landing allows you to do it easily and naturally.

I do not understand....landing brings with them fuel, spare parts for aircraft, bombs and shells for aircraft guns...is it too much for the six Ju 52's ......?

Perhaps the developers of the project will clarify the logic of such actions....?

The red army air force had no landing aircraft....why the red side is deprived of such an opportunity...?

Edited by =FPS=Cutlass
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Yeah, the paratrooper thing is a bit too much. It is the only "ground attack" target not covered by AAA, by the way. So fighters escorting 52s are not under the risk of being hit by AAA and don' t have to assist with taking them down.

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I actually like the idea of making the dropzones be protected by one of those AAA outposts. Cool!

 

Honestly right now the tank column AAA is joke in comparison to the strength of IL2 I found this on the russian TAW discussion forum

https://www.youtube.com/embed/VPcclF_0V_k?feature=oembed

 

So it is not surprising how much of a reverse red side is able to pull off during the night.

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There should be some restrictions on the para usage. The LW made whopping 40% of airfield captures with them so far, and VVS has no such opportunity at all.

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On 12/15/2018 at 8:41 PM, xJammer said:

People get shot down, quit. The winning team ends up dealing less damage because the opponent gave up.

 

 

For the Luftwaffe registered 1.3 times more people than the red army air force.

In Prime-time for Luftwaffe flies in average in 1.5-2 times more people.

Loss - a consequence of including the numerical superiority.

You can't allocate people to cover the rear of the warehouse and other important goals because they simply do not, and not because their "hit as jammer in group with my team.".....

Your proposed logic will be relevant even when the ratio of the forces of 2,100 to 1.

I'm interested..personally, you will fly with such a balance of power is not in your favor....?

If the penalty for losses and bonuses for the destruction of the enemy depend on the balance of power - then you can fly alone and in the minority against a large number of opponents. Now this is not so your logic is not correct.

21 minutes ago, xJammer said:

I actually like the idea of making the dropzones be protected by one of those AAA outposts. Cool!

 

Honestly right now the tank column AAA is joke in comparison to the strength of IL2 I found this on the russian TAW discussion forum

https://www.youtube.com/embed/VPcclF_0V_k?feature=oembed

 

So it is not surprising how much of a reverse red side is able to pull off during the night.

What confuses you in this video...? The fact that Il-2 can withstand a few hits of 20mm anti-aircraft guns from long range....? The fact that two aircraft in the state in a coordinated manner to attack a tank column alternately diverting anti-aircraft artillerie...? By the way you do not mind the possibility of three planes to destroy all anti-aircraft artillery at the airport, but unfortunately their videos on this occasion you do not spread.....;)

Edited by =FPS=Cutlass
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55 minutes ago, mincer said:

There should be some restrictions on the para usage. The LW made whopping 40% of airfield captures with them so far, and VVS has no such opportunity at all.

 

By the next Taw, the Allies will hopefully have the Li-2/DC-3 and have similar capabilities.

 

I think one way to limit the effectiveness of paratroopers would be, to put AAA in the dropzones. This AAA should not only be dangerous for the aircraft, but also for paratroopers.

The more AAA, less paratroopers survive. This would also encourage ground attack planes to clear the dropzones first and bring a nice new mechanic.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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3 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

By the next Taw, the Allies will hopefully have the Li-2 and have similar capabilities.

 

I think one way to limit the effectiveness of paratroopers would be, to put AAA in the dropzones. This AAA should not only be dangerous for the aircraft, but also for paratroopers.

The more AAA, less paratroopers survive. This would also encourage ground attack planes to clear the dropzones first and bring a nice new mechanic.

While there is no available Li-2 it can be replaced by Ju-52 in the Soviet coloring

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54 minutes ago, =FPS=Cutlass said:

What confuses you in this video...? The fact that Il-2 can withstand a few hits of 20mm anti-aircraft guns from long range....? The fact that two aircraft in the state in a coordinated manner to attack a tank column alternately diverting anti-aircraft artillerie...? By the way you do not mind the possibility of three planes to destroy all anti-aircraft artillery at the airport, but unfortunately their videos on this occasion you do not spread.....;)

 

 

Nothing is confusing. It is just that "balance" wise IL2 tanking head-on multiple AAA guns on a tank column, while blue side has nothing that is comparably tanky that still can frontally take out the AAA trucks by itself.

 

There is a difference between taking out AAA at airfields with losses from even just a single hit of AA and an IL2 carelessly tanking the said AA ;) 

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3 hours ago, mincer said:

Ok, here is some quick and dirty stats. So far LW captured cities 25 times by tanks, airfields 16 times by paratroopers, and damaged airfields by paratroopers 49 times. Below is the list of events. What do you guys think? 

 

  Hide contents

-snip-
 

 

 

 

VVS has no realistic way to respond to this which is pretty much handing an extra 30% airfield capture rate to Blue. They can fly the sorties during missions when blue is stacked as it is now and be under no threat.

 

 image.png.06f5b3a3537d95e7633280e3f70f755a.png

 

It would make sense to allow the paratroopers to capture airfields when there is 24/7 danger to them but this is simply not the case.

Edited by Talon_

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Yes, I am pretty sure that the majority of para landings are done during 60-20 like situations. 

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9 minutes ago, xJammer said:

 

 

Nothing is confusing. It is just that "balance" wise IL2 tanking head-on multiple AAA guns on a tank column, while blue side has nothing that is comparably tanky that still can frontally take out the AAA trucks by itself.

 

There is a difference between taking out AAA at airfields with losses from even just a single hit of AA and an IL2 carelessly tanking the said AA ;) 

That's not balance. This is a historically accurate thing. The columns are 20-25mm anti-aircraft guns, which are equally successful shoot down fighters and bombers. Il-2 due to the armored corps and "magic damage model version 3.008" - out of competition...not YET anyway. When attacking airfields, the cover of which has anti-aircraft guns calibre 37mm no longer any difference between a fighter, a bomber or an armored Il-2, since all three can easily go astray anti-aircraft guns of this caliber.

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Just now, =FPS=Cutlass said:

That's not balance. This is a historically accurate thing.

 

 

Oh so we are OK having 109f4 in 1941 then next TAW? :) 

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25 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

By the next Taw, the Allies will hopefully have the Li-2/DC-3 and have similar capabilities.

 

I think one way to limit the effectiveness of paratroopers would be, to put AAA in the dropzones. This AAA should not only be dangerous for the aircraft, but also for paratroopers.

The more AAA, less paratroopers survive. This would also encourage ground attack planes to clear the dropzones first and bring a nice new mechanic.


Why do those paratroopers exist in the first place? To compensate for 40% extra field capture rate there should be either:

1) Paratroopers for both sides
2) No paratroopers for anybody

3) Paratroopers for LW and some asymmetrical red-only target. For example, Hitler visiting the front lines. If VVS destroy the dugout with Hitler, the whole campaign is won, the war is over.

Another problem with blue-only paratroopers is that it is a massively important target which distract pilots from other fronts. Also paradrop zones are not shown on map and in VVS briefings. I guess for obvious reasons.

Edited by mincer
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9 minutes ago, xJammer said:

 

Oh so we are OK having 109f4 in 1941 then next TAW? :) 

Beyond question.

In complex with I-153, SB-2, Su-2, TB-3, Lagg-3 -41 ( 20mm+2x12,7mm+.2x7,62mm), Yak-1 M-105,  Mig-1 or Mig-3, IL-2 + VAP, AJ.

Why not....?  

You think we didn't fly like this...?

You don't quite understand what this could lead to.....:lol:

Edited by =FPS=Cutlass
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Just now, mincer said:

Another problem with blue-only paratroopers is that it is a massively important target which distract pilots from other fronts. Also paradrop zones are not shown on map and in VVS briefings. I guess for obvious reasons.

 

 

Its fairly regular for red players as far as I noticed to first join blue side to check on the para locations and then switch back to red. I don't think it makes much of a difference if they are hidden. (I have never tested whether this tactic is actually possible, maybe there is a long timeout so only one red "sacrifices" himself to tell the rest of the team where the drops are).

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Just now, xJammer said:

 

 

Its fairly regular for red players as far as I noticed to first join blue side to check on the para locations and then switch back to red. I don't think it makes much of a difference if they are hidden. (I have never tested whether this tactic is actually possible, maybe there is a long timeout so only one red "sacrifices" himself to tell the rest of the team where the drops are).


The problem with switching sides is that new players are not aware of the paradrops going on. While if the paradrop zone was shown on the map it would be obvious that something fishy may happen there. You also cannot switch sides to check the zones while in flight.

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2 minutes ago, xJammer said:

 

 

Its fairly regular for red players as far as I noticed to first join blue side to check on the para locations and then switch back to red. I don't think it makes much of a difference if they are hidden. (I have never tested whether this tactic is actually possible, maybe there is a long timeout so only one red "sacrifices" himself to tell the rest of the team where the drops are).

Reasons why you are against giving this opportunity to both parties....? ;)

You will also be able to" spy " and wait at the point of landing of enemy transport aircraft....:good:

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So probably para drop zones are not shown on the map with the hope of VVS pilots being distracted by the other targets, while they silently lose airfields by stealth infantry paradrops. Which seems to actually happen. 

Another thing is that those damn troopers damage airfields, which happened 49 times. To damage a front-line airfield with bombs you have to face AAA and fighters hanging around. While with paratroopers you just have to sneak in at the right moment.

Edited by mincer
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3 hours ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

4. Attack/defense objectives dynamically generating within the mission instead of between mission timeouts giving planes like Pe-2 reason to loiter over patrol points until one comes up.

 

 

 

I LOVE this.  @=LG=Kathon this would be a game changer for this server.

 

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Also, if you look at the last map (starting mission #216), the Axis captured 5 cities on the ground, 4 by paratroopers and 7 times damaged airfields. 

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