Tactical Air War - Bomber career voting

[Blakhart]

Thanks for huge community feedback on bomber career topic.
Bomber career support topic

Next time stick to the rules and use "Poll" section please.

Also use this drill: "Tactical Air War RCP - issue "
It's easier to count and calculate votes. 
Thanks in advance!

But...
Do you want to make a war when red side is wining constantly due to Pe-2 + il2 destructive abilities
No?
So please read caerfully, think twice and then make votes.


Few words about the current situaton.

There is a bigger reason behind actual shape of planeset:

1.
- server rules and deadly enviroment(AAA) must force people to fly in squadrons/groups like in ww2, because we simulate ww2 from the air force perspective, finally we will all understand that solo missions = 100 death

- we want to encourage everyone to join the teamspeak, socialize with other pilots, make friends, create the community
- atmosphere of community will be better when we will talk more on comms instead of fighting on forum 

2.
Why there is a il2 or 110 before bomber ?

To understand this fact You also need to go into LW / VVS RKKA structure and check what units were operating at Moscov/Stalingrad/Kuban campaigns and how many il2/He111/Ju88/Pe2/110/hs129 was in service.

But first of all.
*
If there will be a bomber available for everyone right away people will use it without any risk managment.
When You need to earn so much points to unlock the plane you will think 4 times before stupid solo mission.
*
Red side dont have real level bomber. How we can balance this ?
Pe-2 can make sneaky dive attacks and run away on the deck with his deadly gunners making better escort than any other fighter
*
There is a huge problem with total team red-blue balance.
If people want bomber career, both sides should have it. In other way there will be huge fight about it.
If we will give Pe-2 to red side as a advance plane (without il2) people will use pe2 for every type of attack to feel immortal and by saved by speed, gunner and still make solo arcade missions. 
Also in case of historical accuracy, il2 was mostly used plane. You can check how many squadrons there was in operational service over Stalingrad
Check this cool excel file prepared by @LukeFF  to understand why there should be more il2 than Pe-2 available in some campaigns.
Stalingrad order of battle

Also->
In fact there should be even less hs129 and bf110 due to historical acccuracy, but if we will follow this path then Blue side will be seriously downgraded in terms of achieving overall victory in the campaign.  
And we don't want that.

So ?
You still want to complain guys?   Please dig deeper into history and try to understand.
You think creating a planeset with all those limitations and factors is easy ? No it isnt. 
There is more factors than "I want my bomber right now because I'm a bomber".
Please think about the whole problem and then try to help with some solutions

3.

- every player must present some skill level and effort to fly advanced, better planes, bomber pilots are not better nor worst than any other

- bomber pilots are not forced to fly fighters, on basic planes You have Ju-87 Stuka/Hs129/U-2/I16/il2 as a ground attack plane

- this is every pilot choice what they want to use


If you read all of this and now aware about the problems want to vote please make post in this thread with
"Long live the TAW!" or start your post with this sentence so I ll know if You ignored all those information or not.
Then I ll know which post I should ignore too.

 

p.s
Creating a new bomber line cost a lot of effort and time so to make it we need volunteers who help with coding
I expect @E69_Gote and other folks supporting are also a volunteers to make the hard job with the script.

p.s.2
If You have idea how to limit the payload or solve the problems mentioned by me please leave comments.
Be aware -> code likes simple solutions -> someone will have to do it and we already have plans for next TAW more importnat updates so we need volunteers to make some part of the script

Cheers!

[E69_Falke_Wolf]

"Long live the TAW!"

Hello.
First of all, I hope everyone understands that we have not started this poll for selfish reasons. We love TAW and we almost focus all of our squad activity throughout the year at the time TAW is available.
We also understand that the TAW is very complicated to manage, everyone has different opinions. And we are sure that the script is something that takes looooong work. I think most of the IL-2 community loves TAW and loves to enjoy that time flying.

But on the other hand we cannot ignore that in this edition there is a disappointment and discontent on part of many bomber pilots, reds and blues.

Historical reasons (apart from the number of planes available) cannot be in question: bomber pilots flew bombers, from their first combat mission. It is true that they learned to fly in fighters, but at SCHOOL. Once they became bomber pilots, they flew bombers.
 

Perhaps there is a simple change that can be made to the script, without having to do it all over again:
Pilots have already chosen their lines. It is NOT necessary to create new lines now.
It takes 32 CPs to get a bomber. OK, so give each pilot 32 CPs at the beginning of each map.
If you die and lose the planes, ok, you must get them back, as well as the CPs.

Good pilots will keep their planes flying. The bad guys (or those with bad luck) will die and have to start again as now.

Perhaps this solution is the technically easiest to implement.

But then at least there will be a chance to see bombers flying in this TAW.

We also understand the advantages of the Pe-2, but honestly, I think it will be very difficult for the blue side to turn the situation around and win maps. But at least we can fight back them and have a more balanced TAW. More fun for everybody, reds and blues.

Thank you for yor time, we really appreciate.

 

[72AGk_Maiskiy_Juk]

Long live the TAW. I'm a blue pilot. I am aware of the need for a career for a bomber.the PE-2 as a base plane has the right of a red pilot. I believe that the PE-2 is an unsymitric balance against the blue fighters.

[LLv24_Kessu]

Long live TAW.

 

I do like this proposal:

1 hour ago, E69_Falke_Wolf said:

It takes 32 CPs to get a bomber. OK, so give each pilot 32 CPs at the beginning of each map.
If you die and lose the planes, ok, you must get them back, as well as the CPs.

 

 

To compensate the said advantage of PE-2, the same 32 CP could also be given to pilots who chose BF-110 line?

[E69_Falke_Wolf]

13 minutes ago, LLv24_Kessu said:

 

To compensate the said advantage of PE-2, the same 32 CP could also be given to pilots who chose BF-110 line?

 I suppose, being fair, this 32 CPs should be given to all pilots (fighters too). Then deaths and victories should decide who keeps their planes and who loss it all.

But it's only a proposal. Developers decide if they want to do it and how.

[E69_Qpassa_VR]

Ignore my message because I don't copy-paste your message

 

Maybe the issue for the Pe-2 would be solved by putting them in the furthest airfields and easy AI for gunners

Edited May 18, 2021 by E69_Qpassa_VR

[SCG_Wulfe]

1 hour ago, E69_Falke_Wolf said:

 I suppose, being fair, this 32 CPs should be given to all pilots (fighters too). Then deaths and victories should decide who keeps their planes and who loss it all.

But it's only a proposal. Developers decide if they want to do it and how.

 

"Long live the TAW"

 

On first consideration, I actually really like this idea. Start all pilots with the planes they have in their line-up.... if they crash, they lose it, if they die, they lose them all and start from scratch earning them back with CP. 

 

This would still incentivize cautious flying. Also, we would see more realistic careers where it becomes possible to fly the appropriate plane for your career, start to finish. It really puts the onus on the pilot to maintain the planes he wants to fly.. rather than complain that they have to start in something else to get to them... if you're flying something other than you want, its because 'you' screwed up. 

 

I don't think it would be a huge coding change to grant the requisite CP after each map flip to accomplish this. 

[Inkophile]

 

I won't succumb to your idiotic "Long live TAW" crap. Here I thought that Raaaaaid (however many 'a' are in there) was the top resident crazy-writer, but it's pleasing to see that someone is actively trying to knock him down to second place. Quite refreshing.

 

5 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Red side dont have real level bomber. How we can balance this ?

 

As for the quote above: Have you ever flown the Pe-2? It does have a bomb sight for level bombing, is fast, has good gunners, and a decent enough payload even though it can't carry small tactical nukes like the He 111. It's hard to have any faith in the planesets and general balancing work when one of the - at least who tries to make himself look like it - "masters" of TAW is unaware of the planes' features/capabilities.

[FF_Groucho]

Long live TAW
Hello
I'm impressed with the amount of work you've done with this new TAW and appreciate the philosophy.
I like to fly on TAW because I appreciate the difficulty of your server.
I like to practice level bombing.
I agree with the idea of having to earn his stripes, but I'm frustrated having to win a 1942 IL2 before being entitled to the Pe-2 which was not my starting choice.
That's why I want more direct access to my favorite bomber.
If we choose the bomber career it is to fly on bombers, for that I find the proposal of E69_Falke_Wolf to be interesting.

[JG4_Widukind]

Hello I've read everything (with google translate) But I would like to know why we need a new bomber line, don't we have one? In addition to the topic of bombers, I would like to say that my main concern is to reintegrate the pilots who can not really handle a fighter / Jabo, but can fly a bomber all the better. These pilots have always been there and fly their 2h missions to depot or an enemy airfield. And it is precisely these pilots that should not be excluded by saying you have to fly fighters first. The same applies of course to the Me110 pilots! In a nutshell, that means.

Every bomber pilot or destroyer pilot should have at least 1 machine as a base, of course for red and blue. You have to earn the rest.

 

On the subject of bombs: For over a year there are big bombs from SC1000 (SC1800, SC2500kg) have the same effect or have less effect than an SC1000. The JG4 read out the data, we wrote to the DEVs, but received no real response (as always). We are happy to help here.

 

Conclusion: For me personally, this TAW is a big beta test and you have to see where you have to adjust or change things. So a TAW with historical accuracy and a good balance. You have to adjust again and again, as has always happened in recent years. I also see that you shouldn't do anything with the number of players. Sometimes there are more reds or blues. For me, it's no longer about winning, but more about the pilots / squads having fun together .. flying. Isn't that what it is?

[WokeUpDead]

 

Long live the TAW? What is this, a pledge of allegiance to a cult? You'll ignore posts without it? You can't handle some no-mercy feedback, you need us to stroke your... ego first a little?

 

On to some more logical things you said:

11 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

But...
Do you want to make a war when red side is wining constantly due to Pe-2 + il2 destructive abilities

 

(...)

Pe-2 can make sneaky dive attacks and run away on the deck with his deadly gunners making better escort than any other fighter
 

(...)

If we will give Pe-2 to red side as a advance plane (without il2) people will use pe2 for every type of attack to feel immortal and by saved by speed, gunner and still make solo arcade missions.

 

That's all probably true, Pe-2 spamming could be an issue early on. I think the tweak to be made here is not to give the Pe-2 and German level-bombers right away, but make it easier to keep them once you earn them. It was disappointing to lose my Pe-2 without even getting a chance to fly it because between maps 3 and 4 we switched from the 35 to the 87 series. Having to grind through two ground-attackers if I die to get it again would be disappointing too. Players who like level-bombers above all else might be disappointed enough that they would leave the server. Possible solutions:

• Reduce the number of CPs needed for advanced bombers
• Reduce the number of CPs needed for advanced bombers after the first death/capture (edit: change this to "reduce the number of CPs needed to earn the bomber after you already earned it once")
• Reduce the number of ground attackers needed to get the advanced bombers from 2 to 1
  • (by the way, if I'm reading the planeset chart correctly this is the way it SHOULD be for map 4, but in the game I'm still having to get through 2 IL-2s before I get my Pe-2 in the Peshka career)
• Make basic level bombers available right-away but reduce the number of registration spaces available for level-bombing career lines as a percentage of total registrations

If you choose a fighter career, you'll have a competitive basic plane on most maps: the F2, F4, G2, MiG, Yak-1 and Yak-7B perform similarly to advanced planes on their maps. But when you choose a bomber career you're forced to fly something completely different first.

 

5 hours ago, Inkoslav said:

As for the quote above: Have you ever flown the Pe-2? It does have a bomb sight for level bombing, is fast, has good gunners, and a decent enough payload even though it can't carry small tactical nukes like the He 111. It's hard to have any faith in the planesets and general balancing work when one of the - at least who tries to make himself look like it - "masters" of TAW is unaware of the planes' features/capabilities.

 

I think by "real" level bomber he meant "dedicated, level-only" bomber. The Pe-2 is really more of a ground-attack/level bomber hybrid, it's not a pure level-bomber like the He-111 or the IL-4; even the Ju-88 feels more like a pure level-bomber that can dive on its target if it absolutely has to.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by WokeUpBlue
Reduce the number of CPs needed for advanced bombers after the first death/capture (edit: change this to "reduce the number of CPs needed to earn the bomber after you already earned it once")

[Antiguo]

long live TAW ....

 

 

I have flown in the TAW almost from the beginning, all the changes made up to now I have always seen very positive, but wanting to limit the flight of the bombers and their pilots seems to me the wrong decision.

 And more arguing that the maps are won by PE2, a super plane of destruction.

Are not the pilots who drive them responsible for that success ???

Blaming PE2 for the "big changes" for being the "ultimate" weapon seems absurd to me.

I personally only fly bombers, (Pe 2, HE111, JU88 and A20) I assure you that I dedicate many hours as a fighter pilot to his plane, while my colleagues go from time to time to Berloga to practice marksmanship, I dedicate myself to gain altitude with a bomber to practice marksmanship (Germans, Americans and that extraordinary kills PE2 fighters).

On many occasions I fly on YOUR server, I do it with my dear escorts, both from ALA 13, as well as from other squadrons, sometimes I also fly solo (availability of colleagues, work ...) and they have me intercepted, but I sell very expensive my skin, and that is achieved by practicing .... so ..... is PE2 a "super culprit"? ... or will it be those of us who pilot it ...?
Those who know me know that I value returning alive more than not returning (The statue that I won last year you did not give me because of my pretty face, I won it for surviving, with the help of the people who made the escorts, Ala 13, 666giap ... etc) ... let's have a team game.

In this edition ...... what is left for us? ... to fly at less than 2000m and to be cut off, it is very easy to foresee what is going to be attacked.

With bombers at level (including PE2) intercepting us is already more difficult, and the objectives are less predictable ..... it is not so easy to fill the bag and the ego accumulating losses ... (go with an IL2, JU87 or a fighter to attack a tank is not necessary, but waiting for them in the columns at 2000m is to rub your hands)

 

 

 

We only ask that you do not exclude us from your server (or I ask you since it is my favorite).

 

Greetings

 

 

 

 

viva la  TAW ....

He volado en la TAW casi desde el principio , todos los cambios echos hasta ahora los he visto siempre muy positivos  , pero querer limitar el vuelo de los bombarderos  y de sus pilotos me parece una decisión no acertada . 

 Y más argumentando que los mapas los ganan el PE2 , un super avión de destrucción .

No seran los pilotos que los manejan los responsables de ese exito???

Culpar al PE2 de los "grandes cambios" por ser el arma "definitiva" me parece absurdo .

Yo personalmente solo vuelo bombarderos ,( Pe 2 , HE111 , JU88 y A20 ) te aseguro que le dedico tamtas horas como un piloto de caza a su avión , mientras mis compañeros se van de vez en cuando al Berloga a practicar puntería , yo me dedico a ganar altura con un bombardero a practicar puntería ( alemanes , americanos y ese extraordinario mata cazas PE2 ).

En muchas ocasiones volando en TU servidor , lo hago con mis queridos escoltas , tanto del ALA 13 , como de otros escuadrones , a veces también vuelo en solitario ( disponibilidad de compañeros , trabajo...) y me tienen interceptado  , pero vendo muy caro mi  piel , y eso se logra practicando ....entonces .....el PE2 es un " super culpable "? ....o lo serán los que lo pilotamos...?
Quienes me conocen saben que valoro más el regresar vivo que el no regresar (La estatua que gane el año pasado no me la disteis por mi cara bonita , la gane por sobrevivir , con la ayuda de las personas que hacían las escoltas , Ala 13 , 666giap ...etc )...vamos un juego en equipo .

En esta edición......que nos queda?...volar a menos de 2000m y que nos destripen , es muy fácil preveer lo que se va a atacar .

Con bombarderos a nivel ( incluido el PE2 ) interceptarnos ya se hace más dificil ,y los objetivos son  menos predecibles .....no es tan sencillo llenar la saca y el ego acumulando derrivos ....( ir con un IL2  , JU87  o un caza a atacar un depósito no es menester , pero esperarlos en las columnas a 2000m es para frotarse las manos)

 

 

Solamente te pedimos que no nos excluyas de tu servidor ( o yo te lo pido ya que es mi faborito ).

Saludos 
 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by ALA13_Antiguo

[=KG76=flyus747]

"Long live the TAW!"
 

The Problems

Some things first. The proposed solutions must address every identified problem sufficiently. I've listed below what I think those are. Because the problems (and their implications) vary in scope, the solutions will most likely not be fixed by a few small edits in the code. It will need to be more complex than that, as Blakhart has already pointed out.

1. Prevent Pe2 spamming (in older TAWs)
   • This is a big one apparently. Too many people were using it so it needed to be addressed. He wants fewer Pe2s in the air, but what we have instead is (no Pe2s, or any other bomber) in the air. 
2. Emphasize the "value" of multi-engine aircraft.
   • BH has stated that players need to "appreciate" the bigger planes because they are more expensive than fighters. While this is true, I don't agree that the frontline pilot has to be concerned about this. Maybe there is another way to emphasize the "value"?
3. The lack of bombers in TAW.
   • We already know this well. It's map 4 and there is a noticeable absence of bombers in TAW as a result of the new mechanics.

If there are any other problems I missed, feel free to let me know.

 

 

The Solutions

 

1. Basic Bombers

The Basic Bombers are all of the bombers, just with heavily restricted loadouts.

• Functions like Basic Fighters or Basic Attackers.
• Has a very limited loadout. The loadout just needs to be barely good enough to perform basic level bombing, so that it still leaves much to be desired (this is intentional). They are 'Basic' and need to be lacking.
• 1/1 +1       or        1/1     0/1/0 (replenishes every other mission).
• Note: there is no longer a need to grind the attacker aircraft.

 

*Current loadouts listed may be changed if it is considered too weak/powerful for a 'Basic' aircraft.

 

2. Weigh each aircraft type differently.

• Every bomber lost = 5 total aircraft
• Every attacker lost = 2 total aircraft 
• Every fighter lost = 1 total aircraft

So if the Red team starts off with 100 total planes (for instance) and they lose 2xPe2s, then they now have 90 planes. However, if they instead lose 2xYaks, they would still have 98 planes. 

 

If you want players to appreciate how expensive a large multi engine aircraft is, punish the team, not the player. Bomber pilots fly bombers when they arrive to the frontline. They do not start with fighters...then attackers...then bombers. 

 

 

Final Words

This TAW, I chose the He 111 (doppel blitz career) and thus far, only 10-15% of my sorties have been spent in bombers. I believe I am on the high end of that spectrum of bomber players who have flown bombers. From the results of yesterday's BASIC BOMBERS POLL, it is apparent now that many of those who chose bomber careers also share similar experiences. We simply aren't seeing enough bombers in TAW. 

 

This should not be the case. Bombers should be available from the start because a big part of the new planeset system was to "let players fly more of what they want." 

 

To draw a comparison, fighters who do not yet have the Bf 109 F-4, can still fly the F-2 Basic or E-7 and still perform fighter duties and missions. The "Bomber" career is quite different. Level bombers cannot fly bombers (and hence cannot level bomb) until 32 CP later when they unlock their first bomber. It seems to me as if it was not clear to the devs what they truly wanted for bomber career vs attacker career so they put them all under one career line: the "Bomber line." As far as I can tell, it has only served as a collecting point for "everyone else who does not dogfight." A mosh pit for a mixture of pilots who ground attack and level bomb. Those two are not the same mission and to jumble them under one career path sends a confusing message to players as to what their intended role is supposed to be.

 

It seems to me, it is the level bombers who have received the short end of the stick. Level bombing is our bread and butter, but having since been confused with Pe2s/88s who make fast dive raids on defenses and then RTB, the level bomber players have suffered a bitter crackdown which have virtually wiped out their existence in TAW.

Edited May 19, 2021 by =KG76=flyus747
Added "Note" and updated the Basic Bomber proposal.

[E69_Zelar]

“Long live you Lord, sorry, TAW” ?

 

I like a lot the new focus of the Server but I think we all would like to see level bombers in the skies of taw in all maps, too.

I don’t know if there will be a solution, but I thought we could try to find one that fits with server admins project, and require minor changes.

This motivated for proposal, from TAW manual ?

“If between TAW Seasons, if you feel you can add or improve something in TAW, we are prepared to listen. 

We welcome polite conversation and logical arguments. We ignore accusations and arrogance.

TAW is a large project serving approximately 600 to 1000 players. Decisions to implement changes can have profound effects, and are not taken lightly. All proposals for changes must follow our RCP to ascertain whether it receives the  of theTAW community.”

It’s probably that wan’t be able of achieve the 200 supports for this proposal even in two days more than 100 people showed his interest.

I think sometimes the method of trial and error can help to find same “solution”.

Maybe without adding new lines, but having one or two bomber available per bomber pilot from the beginning only at depot airfields, and with limited payload, discourages from flying them all day long and flying more short missions with ju87 …and if lost, fly ju87 and emil…

 

Ps: I have a lot of weaknesses and one is the lack of coding capabilities, sorry.

 

 

 

[Norz]

23 minutes ago, E69_Gote said:

It’s probably that wan’t be able of achieve the 200 supports for this proposal even in two days more than 100 people showed his interest

 

There are about 300 active players (>7h in the game, >30 min/day). It is not possible at all that 200 players will vote...

[Inkophile]

3 hours ago, Norz said:

There are about 300 active players (>7h in the game, >30 min/day). It is not possible at all that 200 players will vote...

 

Which most definitely is why the threshold is as high as it is. Also have to take into account that far from all TAW players hang around on the forum or at least bother to keep track of what happens in the infinitely long and just about as hard to use TAW forum thread. That way 100% of all suggestions can be dismissed without having to analyse them and reply in detail for why they're turned down.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Inkoslav

[Blakhart]

Long live the TAW !  

 

6 hours ago, E69_Gote said:

“ I have a lot of weaknesses and one is the lack of coding capabilities, sorry.

 

So You basicaly expect to do some work with other hands ? Well "lord Gote" fits more to You then

About "200". We checked the average number of registered players per season and it was between 600 and 1000. Currently we have more than 1400 registered accounts.
Some of them are fake, some are doubled. Yes. Currently we have like 300 active players but we are in the middle of campaign so other folks can still participate and play which can probably give something between 300 and 500 active players in total.

Polls after western season gathered around 200 ppl. So I think whenever we will have between 100-200 of active votes and majority will agree on something it means it's not a individual request. Also like it was mentioned, changes will be done for the next season.

We still don't have too much comments & voices from rus speaking comunity. Maybe You can inform them and share the links.

What is more I would love to see much more voices from people who play a lot and have bomber skills and can do a constructive critic like flyus747 so still wait for HvB ( we talked on Discord only), JG4, SCG,ACG,72AG ,19FAB, TH bomber pilots & other if I missed some "heavy superstars" , instead of haters without skill who only try to downgrade other people because of own small value like Inkoslav. 
 

11 hours ago, =KG76=flyus747 said:

 

 
Script have some limits, due to the way how it is done right now it's impossible to make exclusive basic bombers available only for bomber career lines.
Also making another factors like flyus747 mentioned is aditional work with code, talk with Kathon  about it. Not me. 

4x250 sounds fair enough but like I said it would be good to hear other comments

 

On 5/18/2021 at 6:01 PM, JG4_Widukind said:

 

We are all aware about big bombs problem. Not our fault. 
The goal is to finally make update and stop changing the rules, system and just play. 
Bring your bomber guys and make some propositions, etc.
 

5 hours ago, Norz said:

 

Norz, my friend, I read all your messages full of accusations and hate under LG address on russian forum. 
I belive we don't have anything to discuss with You after what we saw there. Action = reaction. 
I think you should start own better server and leave such diseaster like TAW and awful LuftGangsta before we will help You with this hard decision some day. 
Thanks in advance!

 

20 hours ago, ALA13_Antiguo said:

 

Antiguo, my friend If you are so good and experienced like You say, why don't You see the challenge in new features ???

Also every soldier have value in the conflict. Here in TAW we have same story.
Attack pilots, cargo pilots, recon pilots, fighter pilots, bomber pilots
Same story with planes and their value. Bombers and strikers with heavy load are especially important. 

How You even say we exclude someone from the game?
It's a lie and only your opinion.
You guys are excluding yourself because You don't want to risk and collect points to unlock the planes.
Dirty fight with ground forces is not the same like climbing to 7000, droping the load and runing safely to base ?
I hope You will find a challenge in new edition and lead your friends to the victory!
Good luck ?


All in all.

It's not so hard to make soft changes and remove the il2s/110s from the lines and add another il2 line for the red side. 
It will be easy to make 1 limited advanced bomber available right away, but if someone will loose the plane he will be forced to unlock a new one with CP.
Due to script limitation its now impossible to make exclusive lines with special basic planes attached to each line.

Also I think its better to have more options and always can make some missions on Stuka, Hs129, il2 or JABO planes. 

Cheers!

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by =LG=Blakhart

[Norz]

20 minutes ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Norz, my friend, I read all your messages full of accusations and hate under LG address on russian forum. 
I belive we don't have anything to discuss with You after what we saw there. Action = reaction. 
I think you should start own better server and leave such diseaster like TAW and awful LuftGangsta before we will help You with this hard decision some day. 
Thanks in advance!

 

First of all, we are not friends (you know it exactly in the same way as i know it).

 

The second, if you will ask everyone who can understand the russian language   -> this person will explain you that you will find 0 (zero) words that can be highlighted as "hate". It is "critic". If you don't like it: just be enough to say: pelase stop it. No problem, i will stop.

 

P.S. I hope you can understand the english words better than russian. Check the english topic and you will find my words there that "TAW is the best server". What do you want more? My love? LOL.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Norz

[E69_Zelar]

@=LG=Blakhart
“We still don't have too much comments & voices from rus speaking comunity. Maybe You can inform them and share the links.”

I will try, trough third-party resources.

[Antiguo]

Larga vida a TAW ...

LG_Blakhart, no lo digo ... Me reconocieron por eso, bombarderos voladores, solo bombarderos.

Es mi especialidad, lo que más me gusta hacer, y (además) lo hago bien ...

Como puede ver, tengo el espíritu de intentar volver con vida, conservar los aviones y cooperar en el esfuerzo de la campaña.
¿No es ese tu objetivo ... ???

 

 

Por supuesto, lo que publico es mi opinión personal.

 

 

 

Entiendo que los cambios no son posibles, tampoco soy programador.

Pero gracias por cumplir con mi solicitud.

Saludos

 

 

 

Saludos

 

 

 

(Here I showed my successes, but they suggested that I take them ...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by ALA13_Antiguo

[Quimbymouse]

3 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Dirty fight with ground forces is not the same like climbing to 7000, droping the load and runing safely to base

Long live TAW?

It's sounding more and more like the powers that be think flying level bombers is boring/stupid and that surely everyone must think that.  The desired equation appears to be attackers hitting ground targets while fighters protect them from other fighters...and level bombers are cheating by refusing to be part of that.

That's fine, It's your server and, in the end, you can do what you want with it. But demeaning people who enjoy flying level bomber missions isn't very tactful.

[E69_Falke_Wolf]

OK Blackhart. You win.
You don't want to change anything about how this TAW works. I understand, really.
 

But let's not have the "illusion" that the participants are being listened to.
We had a proposal, we did a poll, we got almost 100 votes in a few days.... Then you ignored that survey and opened a different one, changing the questions and almost threatening about the consequences of changes.
Lots of bomber pilots have spoken on both sides asking for changes and the only answer is "you fly like this or you don't fly."

OKAY. No problem. It's your right.
Your house, your game, your rules. I understand.

BUT, I wonder where are the survey results to make other changes: reduce the number of CPs for advanced aircraft (which was really necessary) or allow to have more than one account per side (I missed that poll)...

Again....My house, my game, my rules. OKAY.

And please don't take this as a criticism again. We all understand the ENORMOUS effort TAW requires. And be SURE that we REALLY APPRECIATE it.
I think that nobody here wants to bother without any reason.
But if your constant response to the suggestions is: "fly or leave it" you must understand that some pilots just leave it...
We will continue flying by now (we are now the second squadron with the most hours in TAW, we not only criticize, we also fly) but we need more and more effort to encourage our pilots to fly like this.
Best regards, thank  you for your time and see you in the skies.

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

16 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

How You even say we exclude someone from the game?
It's a lie and only your opinion.
You guys are excluding yourself because You don't want to risk and collect points to unlock the planes.
Dirty fight with ground forces is not the same like climbing to 7000, droping the load and runing safely to base ?

I think you have not understood anything yet, why does a dedicated level Bombardment squad have to previously take an i16 / mig3, step on the mud and wait for another dedicated fighter squad to fall from the sky at 2000m? Why don't we turn the tables and put all the LGs to fly a pe2 / he111 first, make a 250km journey at 7000m and then return to base? Why would you get bored 15 minutes after taking off. But you have to understand that not all of us are LG, and that the diversity of tastes is multiple, some like Dogfight / others feel the adrenaline of Jabbo / others consciously plan a flight at 7000m so as not to be intercepted, as he well says colleague FALKE_WOLF, we try to convince colleagues to fly the TAW but every day with less positive results, we only try to do our bit so that the TAW is a server to whom you want to go and fly with enthusiasm, not to convince me to fly it a couple of hours. Long live the TAW

[Blakhart]

3 hours ago, Ala13_UnopaUno_VR said:

 

No.
You didnt understood my intention and also that I16 was treated as a ground attacker, same like Suka and il2.
No one is ordering bomber pilots to make fighter missions.
They have just different tools, not so powerfull, comfort and safe to kill ground units.
That's it.

It's just not as easy as it was before.

This is the problem.
Alone basic attackers are constantly eliminated by enemies or AAA and this is why You put so much pressure to make those changes
You guys are frustrated and instead of looking how to find a way and collect the points you want to make it as easy as it can be.

But if so much folks wants bombers we can make a compromise acording to the script limits. 

In this TAW I saw plenty of situations. 
Also how blue side can make a good coordinated attack and save their Ju87.

It's a matter of effort, cooperation and will.

Bomber pilots just want to have their toys available whenever they want to make lone raids for the targets and count on altitude and own gunners. 

Also You probably dont understand what planes were mainly used in Moscov 1941. 
On red side I15, I15bis and I16 were used in big numbers, we dont have I15, so at least we added U-2 and I16. 
What is more You probably didnt paricipated in beta test actively enough to know and understand why there is no il2 in basic planeset on first 2 maps.

LG back in the old 1946 days had good bomber section called devastators and we know very well every aspect connected with level bombing, escort, etc.
Nevermind... 

  

4 hours ago, E69_Falke_Wolf said:

OK Blackhart. You win.
You don't want to change anything about how this TAW works. I understand, really.

 

0_0 no way...

This is the best example of how badly works internet communication.
You guys completly missunderstood my messages and intentions so make step back and please read caerfuly what I wrote before.

1st. 
I explained why we prefer polls over topics
Rules with RCP are simple and everyone needs to follow them.
Gote made a small mistake with creating a topic and I fixed that to help others understand how the RCP should be done in future...
But You think I wanted to do something bad and ignored the topic ???

Man, are you serious ?? 
I'm talking with You guys, trying to find a solution for the problem.


2nd.
Later I explained what can be done and what is a limit due to the script.
Also I mentioned 100-200 votes is a good number and we still need to wait for other comments.

Nothing and none of You was ignored. 

Are you reading my messages directly or translating them by google ?
Asking because I'm really confused.

Tranquilo hermanos. Esta bien  !

@E69_Falke_Wolf
@ALA13_Antiguo
@E69_Falke_Wolf
@E69_Gote
@LLv24_Kessu
@=KG76=flyus747
@JG4_Widukind
@LLv24_Oke
@WokeUpDead
@Saumbritter

( and anyone else who is supporting new bomber lines and ask for changes )

If You want this changes let's meet on TS3 on this sunday.
I'll show You what work needs to be done and You will understand how the limitations work. 
Not a big deal.  
I ll explain You everything and then we can move forward.


15.00 GMT sunday  sounds good ?
 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by =LG=Blakhart

[E69_Zelar]

29 minutes ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

No.
You didnt understood my intention and also that I16 was treated as a ground attacker.
No one is ordering bomber pilots to make fighter missions.

They have just different tools, not so powerfull, comfort and safe to kill ground units.
That's it.

Also You probably dont understand what planes were mainly used in Moscov 1941. 
On red side I15, I15bis and I16 were used in big numbers, we dont have I15, so at least we added U-2 and I16. 
What is more You probably didnt paricipated in beta test actively enough to know and understand why there is no il2 in basic planeset on first 2 maps.

LG back in the old 1946 days had good bomber section called devastators and we know very well every aspect connected with level bombing, escort, etc.
Nevermind... 

  

 

0_0 no way...

This is the best example of how badly works internet communication.
You guys completly missunderstood my messages and intentions so make step back and please read caerfuly what I wrote before.

1st. 
I explained why we prefer polls over topics
Rules with RCP are simple and everyone needs to follow them.
Gote made a small mistake with creating a topic and I fixed that to help others understand how the RCP should be done in future...
But You think I wanted to do something bad and ignored the topic ???

Man, are you serious ? ? 
  
2nd.
Later I explained what can be done and what is a limit due to the script.
Also I mentioned 100-200 votes is a good number and we still need to wait for other comments.

Nothing and none of You was ignored. 

Are you reading my messages directly or translating them by google ?
Asking because I'm really confused.

Tranquilo hermanos. Esta bien  !

@E69_Falke_Wolf
@ALA13_Antiguo
@E69_Falke_Wolf
@E69_Gote
@LLv24_Kessu
@=KG76=flyus747
@JG4_Widukind
@LLv24_Oke
@WokeUpDead
@Saumbritter

If You want this changes let's meet on TS3 on this sunday.
I'll show You what work needs to be done and You will understand how the limitations work. 
Not a big deal.  
I ll explain You everything and then we can move forward.

If we do those changes 

15.00 GMT sunday  sounds good ?
 

 

? 

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

1 hour ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

 

 

 

Let them '' camelen '', they want only THE BOMBER SIGHT, the rest of the planes do not care, as if you eliminate them for their career, they will be just as happy, they only want their BIMOTOR

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Ala13_UnopaUno_VR

[E69_geramos109]

1 hour ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

 

?

@E69_Falke_Wolf
@ALA13_Antiguo
@E69_Falke_Wolf
@E69_Gote
@LLv24_Kessu
@=KG76=flyus747
@JG4_Widukind
@LLv24_Oke
@WokeUpDead
@Saumbritter


15.00 GMT sunday  sounds good ?
 

 

I will try to stay there at this time to discuss the topic and if I cant probably other from my squad will join

Edited May 20, 2021 by E69_geramos109

[LLv24_Kessu]

2 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

@E69_Falke_Wolf
@ALA13_Antiguo
@E69_Falke_Wolf
@E69_Gote
@LLv24_Kessu
@=KG76=flyus747
@JG4_Widukind
@LLv24_Oke
@WokeUpDead
@Saumbritter

If You want this changes let's meet on TS3 on this sunday.
I'll show You what work needs to be done and You will understand how the limitations work. 
Not a big deal.  
I ll explain You everything and then we can move forward.


15.00 GMT sunday  sounds good ?
 

 

Hi BH,

 

thank you for the invitation - I feel honored!

 

I'll try to be there assuming my family situation allows. This is 17:00 Central Europen Time - right?

 

Cheers- Kessu

[=GEMINI=IngegnerTommy]

From GEMINI side, or at least my side (I don't want to speak for everybody in my team) here is the feedback:

 

We certainly recognize there as been a lot of work in this new TAW format.

Sadly, the overall outcome for us so far has not been not as high as the effort that create it, as this TAW is particularly frustrating for squadron-type actions.

Certainly some aspects of it are just due to some fine tuning/balancing needed and that's not an issue, I'm sure it will be fixed.

 

The main problem is that there is a tremendous limitations to what a squadron can do, in terms of type of missions, due to this new policy on plane set, especially for a squadron like ours where most players has not the chance to fly as many hours as are needed to unlock the advance planes (assuming being lucky, too).

Moreover, considering that if you have few "bomber" players you need ALL of them to have unlocked the plane needed for the mission, this is limiting tremendously the options of what type of mission/target can be done. In other words, we will never leave someone behind not flying with us because "he has not unlocked X" so as result we will hardly be able to fly anything beside basic planes; so we end up using always the same basic plan, attacking the usual spot, in an area that easily become a berloga-like dirtball. No tactical option whatsoever to do something more creative. 

 

I understand that the experience for a squadron that can easily average 15+ hours per week for each player could be different, but currently for us the perception is that this is the most squadron-hostile and fighter-only friendly TAW ever been, which is - to my understanding - the opposite as your declared target.

 

Bringing back the bombers available regularly would be a tremendous help in term of enjoyability of this TAW format, any actions to prevent Pe-2 dominance is welcomed (lower level gunner AI, payload limitation, availability only in rear AF...) but not strictly needed. TAW has always been quite balanced even if Pe-2 was there in great numbers, imho not a game breaker.

 

My two cents..

 

 

[E69_Falke_Wolf]

BH, don't worry, any bad feelings with you. Absolutely.

Just tired and disappointed with TAW. (As many other pilots I see).

Maybe because our lack of personal skills? Sure 

Maybe because our strategic fails as team? Sure.

Maybe because that unbalanced situation? Sure 

Maybe because the difficult to get bombers? Sure.

 

I'll try to be present at the meeting. But we have personal lifes out of TAW and can't put them apart so easy. I hope other pilots can be present.

See you!

 

(And BTW I'm not Shakespeare, but can read in English enough to understand you. Perfectly. Don't worry).

Edited May 20, 2021 by E69_Falke_Wolf

[Antiguo]

 

  " Bomber pilots just want to have their toys available whenever they want to make lone raids for the targets and count on altitude and own gunners. "

 

 

This sentence is truly ".............." I don't see any reason to attend the meeting at the TS.
For my part, I leave this topic finished and out of my interest.
regards

[LLv44_Oke]

Absolutely same feeling....

[Blakhart]

3 hours ago, =GEMINI=IngegnerTommy said:

 

rgrt, I expect also GEMINI members on the meeting then to help with new changes
At least 2, so we will share the work between everyone.

 

2 hours ago, E69_Falke_Wolf said:

 

Understand, no problem
About the meeting.

Well, if you have time to play and expectations , then I'm sure You will find it for work under changes which You expect.
Thanks!

 

1 hour ago, ALA13_Antiguo said:

 

 

Ok, no problem man if You don't have enough courage to meet and talk or jus don't wanna help us then, just don't ask for anything else in TAW  if You arent adult enough to follow Your words and make something more than requesting something on forum.
Ciao superstar, dont forget to take Your diplomas ;]

 

 

[E69_Villawaffe]

Antiguo flies the taw for years. He's an educated guy who hasn't had a problem with anyone. It is not necessary to answer him that way, more education, please.

[E69_Falke_Wolf]

1 hour ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Well, if you have time to play and expectations , then I'm sure You will find it for work under changes which You expect.

Thanks!

 

 

Ok, no problem man if You don't have enough courage to meet and talk or jus don't wanna help us then, just don't ask for anything else in TAW  if You arent adult enough to follow Your words and make something more than requesting something on forum.
Ciao superstar, dont forget to take Your diplomas ;]

Really man? That was absolutely unnecessary. 

Such disrespect for different opinions from other teammates are inappropriate for any representative of a Squad.

 

For that, is needed, on the one side, a gentle hand, education and respect, and on the other side, a strong and firm iron fist. It's evident you have much of the second. I'm not really sure about the first one.

Or maybe you're already tired. I do not blame you.

I understand that it is thankless, unpaid, and hard work. Everyone has an opinion and you have to deal with all. But really, that attitude is unnecessary and does not help the community or the taw at all.

 

Again "my house my game my rules" and now "my meeting, my day, my schedule". And if you cannot come, it is because you do not have enough compromise ...

 

And moreover: if you don't like to fly how I want you to fly, you are a coward.....

 

I guess there's no point insisting about that. Make what you consider is better for TAW.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by E69_Falke_Wolf

[Norz]

1 hour ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Ciao superstar, dont forget to take Your diplomas ;]

 

Dear Sebastian,

can I ask you something?

 

 

[WokeUpDead]

10 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

@E69_Falke_Wolf
@ALA13_Antiguo
@E69_Falke_Wolf
@E69_Gote
@LLv24_Kessu
@=KG76=flyus747
@JG4_Widukind
@LLv24_Oke
@WokeUpDead
@Saumbritter

( and anyone else who is supporting new bomber lines and ask for changes )

If You want this changes let's meet on TS3 on this sunday.
I'll show You what work needs to be done and You will understand how the limitations work. 
Not a big deal.  
I ll explain You everything and then we can move forward.


15.00 GMT sunday  sounds good ?

 

 

Thank you for the invite but that time doesn't work for me, so I'll quickly summarize my position here instead:

 

I mostly like the current way to acquire bombers, I'm enjoying it flying both the red and blue side this time, I think it needs only minor adjustments and not big changes. I voted against a dedicated bomber line in the poll at the top, though in one of my suggestions I did mention a dedicated line that's accessible to only a certain percentage of registrants.

 

My suggestions about TAW will always be towards getting more people to the server because I play in the evenings North American west coast time when 20 players per side is unusually great and 20 total is more likely. I speak out for more relaxed, more inclusive rules, even if I understand and don't mind the stricter ones.

Edited May 20, 2021 by WokeUpDead

[SCG_Wulfe]

2 hours ago, WokeUpDead said:

 

 

My suggestions about TAW will always be towards getting more people to the server because I fly evenings North American west coast time when 20 players per side is unusually great and 20 total is more likely. I speak out for more relaxed, more inclusive rules, even if I actually understand and don't mind the stricter ones.

 

Being a North American pilot who flies both sides, I absolutely agree with where you are coming from. Just having people flying TAW in N/A evenings is fantastic. 

 

I still kind-of think a lot of this could be precluded and accomplished by E69_Falke_Wolf's suggestion that:

 "32 CPs should be given to all pilots (fighters too). Then deaths and victories should decide who keeps their planes and who loss it all.

But it's only a proposal. Developers decide if they want to do it and how."

I think in the spirit of getting people to fly and enjoy flying because they get to fly what they want to fly. This is the best and most broadly pleasing solution. 

 

Everyone has the opportunity to fly what they want but are restrained as well because if they crash, they lose it, if they die, they lose them all and start from scratch earning them back with CP. 

 

I also think it allows for the easiest script/coding solution. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by SCG_Wulfe

[Quimbymouse]

13 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Ok, no problem man if You don't have enough courage to meet and talk or jus don't wanna help us then, just don't ask for anything else in TAW  if You arent adult enough to follow Your words and make something more than requesting something on forum.
Ciao superstar, dont forget to take Your diplomas ;]

Just spitballing here...but could it not be that Antiguo see's no point in further dialogue because nearly every response to him I've seen has been condescending and childish? 

I want to see things work out. I enjoy TAW...but the more this particular debate goes on the less hope I have.   

[RedKestrel]

I understand the feeling that the Pe-2 is more flexible in its attack patterns and better defended than what the Germans field. But it has to be said that in this TAW, with probably the smallest amount of Pe-2s in the air at any one time, the Reds have won the first four maps pretty handily. As good as the Pe-2 is, its clear that a)numbers advantage and b) fast, effective fighter-bombers are just as good or better.