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Game version 3.003 discussion: Battle of Bodenplatte Early Access

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8 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Gielow said:

If it's so obvious how can they make this basic mistake?? Bad support best friends research teams maybe?? It happened a lot before here in other planes.

 

There are many mistakes with the Spitfire IX we have. The largest is that engine RPM + throttle of late Mark IX and XVI were controlled by a single lever according to AP 1565 J P&L Sept 1946 but in game we still have two levers such as the Mark V.

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18 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

There are many mistakes with the Spitfire IX we have. The largest is that engine RPM + throttle of late Mark IX and XVI were controlled by a single lever according to AP 1565 J P&L Sept 1946 but in game we still have two levers such as the Mark V.

Good luck then fighting for the spitfire. I am still looking for talented artists to make 111s turret since I got a lot of Rheinmetall Borsig manuals. Anyway, devs usually fix stuff two days later with a hotfix or two years later when everyone forgets the issue 😄

 

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9 hours ago, baylor703 said:

Awesome start to BoP. The spit handles like a dream. Still haven't found the keymap to the gyro yet. Anyone care to share it?

The full key settings to the gunsights are in the weapons tab in key settings.

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1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

There are many mistakes with the Spitfire IX we have. The largest is that engine RPM + throttle of late Mark IX and XVI were controlled by a single lever according to AP 1565 J P&L Sept 1946 but in game we still have two levers such as the Mark V.

 

I just found one more. The side slip indicator is set up incorrectly.

 

Whereas with German, Russian and US designs you had a ball telling you which rudder pedal you needed to push in order to straighten the plane out, British planes had an instrument telling them which direction their nose was slipping in.

 

This means you had to use rudder opposite the indicated direction on British planes, but ingame, according to the test flight I just finished, left side slip mandates ruddering over towards the left to straighten the plane out.

 

Without having tested it, I'm assuming the same issue is also affecting the Spit V.

Edited by PainGod85

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40 minutes ago, PainGod85 said:

 

I just found one more. The side slip indicator is set up incorrectly.

 

Whereas with German, Russian and US designs you had a ball telling you which rudder pedal you needed to push in order to straighten the plane out, British planes had an instrument telling them which direction their nose was slipping in.

 

This means you had to use rudder opposite the indicated direction on British planes, but ingame, according to the test flight I just finished, left side slip mandates ruddering over towards the left to straighten the plane out.

 

Without having tested it, I'm assuming the same issue is also affecting the Spit V.

 

 

If you re sliding to the left. What rudder you think you need to apply to correct it?

 

You might be confusing the both part of the T&B

 

The top half is the slip part (like the ball) the bottom half is the turn part

Il-2_Sturmovik_26-May-18_05_45_09_PM.png

Edited by ATAG_dB

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Just now, ATAG_dB said:

 

 

If you re sliding to the left. What rudder you think you need to apply to correct it?

 

Right rudder, naturally.

 

Let me rephrase: When the Spitfire's side slip indicator tells you you're slipping to the left, you are actually slipping to the right. Also, I just tested this on the Spit V, there the issue is the same.

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Yeah the gauge is working backwards. It's a pendulum system not a spirit level system.

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1 minute ago, Talon_ said:

Yeah the gauge is working backwards. It's a pendulum system not a spirit level system.

 

^^^

This.

 

5 minutes ago, ATAG_dB said:

You might be confusing the both part of the T&B

 

The top half is the slip part (like the ball) the bottom half is the turn part

Il-2_Sturmovik_26-May-18_05_45_09_PM.png

 

Go into a test flight, accelerate to sufficient speed, then push full rudder to either side. Tell me which direction the side slip indicator says you're slipping towards?

 

E: Yes, the upper gauge, I am well aware.

Edited by PainGod85

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It will point the direction you are sliding

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16 minutes ago, ATAG_dB said:

 

 

If you re sliding to the left. What rudder you think you need to apply to correct it?

 

You might be confusing the both part of the T&B

 

The top half is the slip part (like the ball) the bottom half is the turn part

 

 

That is the way I have always read it in the Spit V.

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Just now, ATAG_dB said:

It will point the direction you are sliding

 

Full right rudder inducing sideslip clearly to the right. Which way does the needle point? @ATAG_dB

 

sideslip.thumb.png.feda4c6b61c2fa2b7c8c26cf85616b7a.png

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The slip indicator is telling you that you need to apply left rudder to fly coordinated. That is how step on the ball is interpreted.

 

Edited by JG27_Kornezov

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Though its a well known fact spitfire pilots LURV their vanity mirrors I'm not sure the MkIX hasn't taken this too far...

 

Compare the Vb to the new girl on the block and the mirrors are.......well......a little self obsessed? Basically, in the IX id be looking at myself all day (if wasnt the IL2 equivalent of the invisible man). Be great for me cos I'm pretty but useless if I intended not to have my incredible good looks ruined by a 30mm through the back of the skull. 

 

So..afore I go running off to Han to report it as a little bug, am I doing sommat wrong in the IX? If I am, what I am I doing wrong in the VB to get a useful mirror from the outset?

 

Pictures (sadly for you none at all of me)

 

 

2018_5_26__15_16_11.jpg

2018_5_26__15_17_10.jpg

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Just now, JG27_Kornezov said:

The slip indicator is telling you that you need to apply left rudder to fly coordinated. That is how step on the ball is interpreted.
 

 

Only, the Spitfire doesn't have an inclinometer consisting of a spirit level, it has a pedulum with a damper attached.

 

As such, when you expect the ball of a spirit level as seen in a 109 to move to the right of the instrument panel, the pendulum on the Spitfire slips to the left.

 

E: Or, to use the pic I uploaded: When you expect the ball of a spirit level as seen in a 109 to move to the left of the instrument panel, the pendulum on the Spitfire slips to the right.

In my pic, it slipped to the left as well when it should have slipped to the right.

Edited by PainGod85

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35 minutes ago, PainGod85 said:

 

Full right rudder inducing sideslip clearly to the right. Which way does the needle point? @ATAG_dB

 

sideslip.thumb.png.feda4c6b61c2fa2b7c8c26cf85616b7a.png

Exactly, if you are kicking your ruder to the right like your are doing now. Which way your are going to slide? Where your needle is pointing.... to the left.

 

Try the same with a P40 and see where your ball go. The same to the left 

Edited by ATAG_dB

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10 minutes ago, ATAG_dB said:

Exactly, if you are kicking your ruder to the right like your are doing now. Which way your are going to slide? Where your needle is pointing.... to the left.

 

Try the same with a P40 and see where your ball go. The same to the left 

 

Again, this is not a spirit level system with a ball telling you which pedal to push. It's a pendulum system telling you which direction you're actually slipping in.

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1 hour ago, PainGod85 said:

 

Again, this is not a spirit level system with a ball telling you which pedal to push. It's a pendulum system telling you which direction you're actually slipping in.

 

If the little needle pointing where it’s written slide slipe left, I guess it mean that it is the side you are slipping in, right?

 

Not sure it can be clearer then that

7B4C0215-1439-4996-98ED-C3FA6B2FC119.jpeg

Edited by ATAG_dB

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When I download Bodenpaltte after purchase the site downloads Battle of Moscow......how do I get it to download Bodenpaltte early access.?????

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6 minutes ago, 19//Rekt said:

 

Don't worry about what it is called (mine calls itself Moscow also)...if you have bought Battle of Bodenplatte, the two new planes should be available to fly in QMB!

 

They should rename it il2 great battles

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1 hour ago, BOO said:

Though its a well known fact spitfire pilots LURV their vanity mirrors I'm not sure the MkIX hasn't taken this too far...

 

Compare the Vb to the new girl on the block and the mirrors are.......well......a little self obsessed? Basically, in the IX id be looking at myself all day (if wasnt the IL2 equivalent of the invisible man). Be great for me cos I'm pretty but useless if I intended not to have my incredible good looks ruined by a 30mm through the back of the skull. 

 

So..afore I go running off to Han to report it as a little bug, am I doing sommat wrong in the IX? If I am, what I am I doing wrong in the VB to get a useful mirror from the outset?

 

Pictures (sadly for you none at all of me)

 

 

2018_5_26__15_16_11.jpg

2018_5_26__15_17_10.jpg

Mirrors as they are implemented, are adjusted to the standard pilot position, and don't readjust with your customisation of the former, that's all.

 

So being able to use mirrors perfectly, you cannot adjust your pilot position in most aircraft, except zoom.

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1 hour ago, ATAG_dB said:

Exactly, if you are kicking your ruder to the right like your are doing now. Which way your are going to slide? Where your needle is pointing.... to the left.

 

Try the same with a P40 and see where your ball go. The same to the left 

This

1 hour ago, PainGod85 said:

 

Again, this is not a spirit level system with a ball telling you which pedal to push. It's a pendulum system telling you which direction you're actually slipping in.

Totally agree. Bang on the nail. Couldn't be more correct.

 

And the pendulum system is telling you that you are slipping to the LEFT in this case. Because you are!

 

Im with Kornezov and dB on this one.  Apply right rudder you don't slide to the right. The aircraft changes attitude and slips into the oncoming air on its port/left flank in relation to the direction of travel. Now that pendulum that you refer to is in effect the needle at the top, a damped weight at the bottom and a pivot somewhere in between.  So, which rough direction is it going to go if forces are now coming at it from its left? Its going to go away from those forces which will be to right. So which way is the needle to go at the other end? Left. I NEED TO LEARN PHYSICS ON REFLECTION!! Its the other way round with the heavy bit at the top- probably - either way the needle goes left.   As such the indictor is correctly showing the direction of slip - you are confusing direction of slip/skid with the attitude of the aircraft in relation to forward flight I think. 

 

The Big L and R on the gauge would be a little disingenuous if it were not the case. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, [TWB]Jizzo said:

Mirrors as they are implemented, are adjusted to the standard pilot position, and don't readjust with your customisation of the former, that's all.

 

So being able to use mirrors perfectly, you cannot adjust your pilot position in most aircraft, except zoom.

I haven't customised that I'm aware of. That's the default as far as I know. either way, if I duck a bit and set I should get less of me and more of the bad man yes?

Edited by BOO

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1 hour ago, PainGod85 said:

It's a pendulum system

You are right with this PainGod but I will give you the same analogy I gave to some of my students, it might help you understand.

 

Imagine you are flying straight and level, like in your example with the picture you provide, kick your right rudder. Now where your head gonna go? That is your pendulum   

Edited by ATAG_dB

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9 minutes ago, BOO said:

I haven't customised that I'm aware of. That's the default as far as I know. either way, if I duck a bit and set I should get less of me and more of the bad man yes?

According to your screenies, you did adjust pretty much all the way to the back, which makes it the same position as in the mkvb.

 

But the normal position in the mkIx is much closer to the front, and you actually only see the mirror when you look up toward it.

Edited by [TWB]Jizzo
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1 hour ago, BOO said:

So..afore I go running off to Han to report it as a little bug, am I doing sommat wrong in the IX?

 

Yes, you have to use the default head position. It's like that in every plane that has a mirror.

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7 minutes ago, [TWB]Jizzo said:

According to your screenies, you did adjust pretty much all the way to the back, which makes it the same position as in the mkvb.

 

But the normal position in the mkIx is much closer to the front, and you actually only see the mirror when you look up toward it.

Cheers Jizzo/Luke!! - its incredible what I do without thinking!! Wow - in 20 mins ive found I'm subconsciously doing stuff AND everything I though I knew about physics is wrong (although the last bit I did, eventually, work out for myself (I think)!! All in one thread!

Edited by BOO

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27 minutes ago, BOO said:

Im with Kornezov and dB on this one.  Apply right rudder you don't slide to the right. The aircraft changes attitude and slips into the oncoming air on its port/left flank in relation to the direction of travel. Now that pendulum that you refer to is in effect the needle at the top, a damped weight at the bottom and a pivot somewhere in between.  So, which rough direction is it going to go if forces are now coming at it from its left? Its going to go away from those forces which will be to right. So which way is the needle to go at the other end? Left. I NEED TO LEARN PHYSICS ON REFLECTION!! Its the other way round with the heavy bit at the top- probably - either way the needle goes left.   As such the indictor is correctly showing the direction of slip - you are confusing direction of slip/skid with the attitude of the aircraft in relation to forward flight I think. 

 

The Big L and R on the gauge would be a little disingenuous if it were not the case. 

 

But if the heavy bit is on top, how is the instrument discriminating between lateral and vertical acceleration?

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19 minutes ago, PainGod85 said:

 

But if the heavy bit is on top, how is the instrument discriminating between lateral and vertical acceleration?

It doesn't give you the the vertical acceleration for that you have a different instrument called a VSI.

 

The bottom part give you which way you re turning (Not rolling) using the precession of a gyroscope   

 

 

Edited by ATAG_dB

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Just now, ATAG_dB said:

It doesn't give you the the vertical acceleration for that you have a different instrument called a VSI.

 

The bottom part give you which way you re turning using the precession of a gyroscope   

 

 

 

That's the turn indicator - the lower indicator. The upper indicator is a pendulum.

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I gave up, believe what you want, it's your choice you can believe in Adam and Eve or Santa Claus. I don't care

Edited by ATAG_dB
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1 minute ago, PainGod85 said:

 

But if the heavy bit is on top, how is the instrument discriminating between lateral and vertical acceleration?

 

31 minutes ago, PainGod85 said:

 

That's the turn indicator - the lower indicator. The upper indicator is a pendulum.

 

I don't think which one is the pendulum is in doubt. You asked how it can measure vertical force. As dB says, it cant. So the more you go into purely vertical force, the less applicable it becomes. Where you have a transition of the lateral and vertical (a standard climbing turn for instance) the instrument still measures the lateral as your head would if it were as sensitive to the force (in a left turn it will still swing to the left if your nose is washing out or slipping indicating you need to apply some left rudder to maintain direction and to prevent being forced out of the turn) and it will swing right if you are applying too much and skidding through the turn (ie you backside is wiggling itself into the direction of travel and trying to force you sideways into the turn). The more you pull into the vertical (knife edge a sharp turn for instance) the more you become reliant on the VSI (climb/descend indicator) and the horizon/mk1 eyeball/Artificial horizon (if you trust either of the last two to be performing accurately at the time) over the slip indicator for the big stuff (although there will be some element of it there usually that you may use to better keep the aircraft in line and maintain speed whilst you adjust the stick to maintain your overall chosen path)

 

Without having you suck eggs remember the lateral and vertical never remain in their straight and level "world plain". They are tried to an aircraft's attitude and as far as the Slip pendulum is concerned up is always where the top of the canopy and down is where bottom of the floor is, no matter where the sheep, seagulls and trees outside are. Pulling back on the stick with no other plain of movement translates (for the purpose this example at least) into a vertical force the slip just will not be able to calculate regardless of whether its from level flight to climb or from a 90 degree bank for a sharp turn.  

 

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Just open a thread in the bugs section with proper explanations and documents minus the attitude. That's the way to get things fixed.

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I am amazed by the number of people who claim to know how the Spitfire's turn and slip indicator works can be completely wrong. You only have to read the pilot's notes which are freely available to read online to find out the truth, that @PainGod85 is correct and you are all just assuming the indicator works the way others do. This is not the case.

 

Exhibit A: The Bf109G-14 turn and slip indicator with the aircraft slipping hard right shows full right slip - to "step on the ball" one must apply right pedal to recenter the nose of the aircraft and remove sideslip. This is how most planes work using a spirit level slip indicator and it causes the slip indicator to point to the inside of a turn.

 

20180527005453_1.thumb.jpg.24d32c36edd6aca0fe65b4f08850ec29.jpg

 

Exhibit B. The Spitfire's pendulum swings the wrong way. In British aircraft you did not "step on the ball" to correct slip - instead you step against it. There is a small weight on a pendulum that causes the needle to swing to the outside of a sideslip due to inertia. This causes the turn and slip indicator to point towards the outside of a turn however the opposite is true in game.

 

20180527005414_1.thumb.jpg.dc10337f08e54d53764be71786d69b13.jpg

 

Exhibit C is this youtube video of a Spitfire. I was going to find the manual entry and post a screenshot explaining how the indicator works but it's far easier to link this footage of a Spitfire making a simple differential brake turn during taxi and watching the needle point towards the outside of the turn:

 

 

 

Please in future don't comment on aircraft that you don't know anything about, thanks.

Edited by Talon_
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There is the slipping and the skidding - imho it looks like there is some confusion about them. (they are not the same thing)

 

Checked the P-40, the Spit V and the newest IX - the latter behaves a bit differently - the needle seems to have a more inertia when rolling but returns to a proper slipping measurement, shortly when you stop the roll. Other bank indicators are doing the same but at lower amplitudes, thus this effect is less pronounced. You can also check the initial rudder trim as it can reverse the reading in a turn.

Edited by Ehret

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5 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

Exhibit C is this youtube video of a Spitfire. I was going to find the manual entry and post a screenshot explaining how the indicator works but it's far easier to link this footage of a Spitfire making a simple differential brake turn during taxi and watching the needle point towards the outside of the turn:

 

 

 

Please in future don't comment on aircraft that you don't know anything about, thanks.

 

And you are saying that in game is wrong?

 

I made a little video for you. I made it easy for you and make it turn on the same direction.

 

 

 

Oups.. Same same.

5 hours ago, Talon_ said:

Please in future don't comment on aircraft that you don't know anything about, thanks.

 

 

Oh yeah I'll take your word for it

 

o7

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1 hour ago, ATAG_dB said:

 

And you are saying that in game is wrong?

 

I made a little video for you. I made it easy for you and make it turn on the same direction.

 

 

 

Oups.. Same same.

 

 

Oh yeah I'll take your word for it

 

o7

 

It was late so I was not able to test my game for the ground run however the behaviour in the air is still incorrect. You can see from the screenshot the indicator is not pointing to the outside of the slip in the knife edge position.

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23 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

It was late so I was not able to test my game for the ground run however the behaviour in the air is still incorrect. You can see from the screenshot the indicator is not pointing to the outside of the slip in the knife edge position.

 

Well it's not, read on the previous post, there is plenty of evidence that prove you wrong, if you struggle with the words there is pictures and video. I am sorry if this come out blunt by I don't know how to speak to people like you, It is not a skill that I have, but I am working on it.

 

I am sorry  

7 hours ago, Talon_ said:

Please in future don't comment on aircraft that you don't know anything about, thanks.

PS. next time you go for a ride in a Spitfire pay attention on the T&B, you will see it is the same that we have in the game

Edited by ATAG_dB

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27 minutes ago, ATAG_dB said:

 

Well it's not, read on the previous post, there is plenty of evidence that prove you wrong, if you struggle with the words there is pictures and video. I am sorry if this come out blunt by I don't know how to speak to people like you, It is not a skill that I have, but I am working on it.

 

I am sorry  

PS. next time you go for a ride in a Spitfire pay attention on the T&B, you will see it is the same that we have in the game

 

You only have to watch the rest of the in-flight video to see that this is not the case. The swing on the ground is caused by inertia due to the yawing moment and not the usual forces that make a sideslip gauge work. In the air during actual manoeuvres it's the opposite of the in-game representation.

Precisely look at timestamp 3:30 to see the aircraft  in a knife edge  with  the indicator on the opposite side to how it should be based on my knife edge screenshot.

Edited by Talon_

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