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Tactical Air War

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Just watched Sheriff last video and I was surprised how easily he could de-wing a ju88 with just a single .50cal + 20mm of the yak1b, if he did that to a pe it would most likely only result in an oil leak...

That was not one single Bullet or two.

 

https://youtu.be/xFuQMlM-Nis?t=238

for the replay:

https://youtu.be/xFuQMlM-Nis?t=278

Edited by DerSheriff

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That was not one single Bullet or two.

 

Never said it was a single bullet or two. My point is if you switch the ju88 with a pe2 in that situation i doubt it would be dewinged, btw, you shot a lot of the right wing and the left one that fell out  :wacko:  

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That was not one single Bullet or two.

 

https://youtu.be/xFuQMlM-Nis?t=238

for the replay:

https://youtu.be/xFuQMlM-Nis?t=278

Though I would agree that the 20 mm rounds are a bit too effective (the single ShVAK or MG151/20 was considered not effective against anything bigger than single engine fighter), the more strange issue actually is the 109 kill with single UBS. He killed the pilot from dead six where the bullet should go through metal skin, 20 mm thick duralumin armor plate behind the fuel tank, the fuel tank, fuel itself and then through the 8 mm steel armor plate behind the pilot. No way any type of .50 cal AP round could achieve such penetration capability. According to the RAF shooting test made on 109F fuselage the .50 cal would not even be capable to reach the plate behind the pilot. 

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I am not saying the PE2 does not have a modelling problem, I leave that decision to the developers, but don't expect it to die as easily as a JU88 because that would definitely be unhistoric.   They lost more JU88s during the battle of Britain than all the He111 & Do17s losses combined despite there being fewer Ju88s used than either of the other two.  On the Eastern front when they were forced into use for CAS they proved very vulnerable to ground fire while the PE2 was in its element.  It was a very capable multi-role bomber, on the NW front the Ju88s decimated the VVS on the ground,  but they lost 890 of 1720 JU88s sent there in the first 8 days of the campaign.

This is a bit misleading. Most of the Ju88 equipped units during BoB were newly transformed. The only "veteran" unit was the KG30. Comparing with He111/Do17 the Ju88 was far from to be easy to fly. Great portion of the loss were thus not associated with combat but to training. According to the Osprey's book about the Ju88 on western front: "Of all the losses suffered by the Ju 88 at that time, however, a number were due to the tricky behavior of the plane, especially when compared to the proven He 111, and to the crews' lack of experience on the type – many having converted to the Ju 88 only shortly before. Of the 39 losses recorded for July 1940, for example, only 20 were due to enemy action. The others being written off in training accidents, crashes, or malfunctions over the mainland Europe". Similar ratio was reached in next months since other units converted to the new type.

 

Similar thing could be said about the eastern front. The Ju88 operated there under circumstances it was never intended for - i.e. CAS mission at very low altitude. And these missions made the biggest portion of all the sorties flew there. It's hard to compare this with Peshkas since VVS never needed to assigned this bomber for such mission type. They have Il-2 designed specifically for such role. 

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Never said it was a single bullet or two. My point is if you switch the ju88 with a pe2 in that situation i doubt it would be dewinged, btw, you shot a lot of the right wing and the left one that fell out  :wacko:  

 

 

Just watched Sheriff last video and I was surprised how easily he could de-wing a ju88 with just a single .50cal + 20mm of the yak1b, if he did that to a pe it would most likely only result in an oil leak...

 

https://youtu.be/xFuQMlM-Nis?t=4m37s

 

I see several hits to the left wing then some to the right wing then the left wing gives way.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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Damn, I totally missed map 2 and now theres no more Ratas  :( there's no use going on, just leave me behind...  :sorry:

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Damn, I totally missed map 2 and now theres no more Ratas  :( there's no use going on, just leave me behind...  :sorry:

Map 2 was great for me, three flights,  ditched twice and shot down once! Should have stayed in bed.

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Yeah Map 2 was slaughterhouse for the reds. Think team blue was very eager to finally get it's F4

 

 

I enjoyed flying E7 a lot. That's the most exciting and outstanding part in TAW. I am glad that map #1 lasted so long.  :biggrin:

Edited by MeoW.Scharfi

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Any chance we'll see sides limited to 40 players at some point? I love the asymmetrical nature of the gameplay on TAW but when the server's full and one side has 50 or 60 players, there's no way to join in order to balance it. With that being said, an organized team could even takeover the server with a full 80 players the way it's currently set up.

 

Think a 40 player cap on each side wouldn't be a terrible idea.

Edited by =SqSq=Sulaco

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It seems the recon pictures of AFs on website are the old ones and don't correspond with the current target layout.

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Here you guys go, a sortie of SACG attacking an airfield late last night

!BE ADVISED, SWASTIKAS ARE SHOWN ON CUSTOM SKINS!

Film made by 5./ZG1_Panzer

 

Edited by 4./JG52_DR1FT3R
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I'm personally not big of fan of the current ditch system calling anything a 3 turn ditch regardless if your plane was hanging off a tree in the middle of the forest or emergency landed on an inactive airfield due to a fuelleak.

I'd like to see an overhaul for the ditching system based on a point system based on certain criteria:

  • +1 Turn for not on active/operational airfield
  • +1 Turn for engine disabled
  • +1 turn for structural failure 

How much information are availble the stats about damage on individual airplane parts? Is something like that even possible on the technical side with IL2?

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It seems the recon pictures of AFs on website are the old ones and don't correspond with the current target layout.

Yes, we know that. They will be changed asap.

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I'm personally not big of fan of the current ditch system calling anything a 3 turn ditch regardless if your plane was hanging off a tree in the middle of the forest or emergency landed on an inactive airfield due to a fuelleak.

I'd like to see an overhaul for the ditching system based on a point system based on certain criteria:

  • +1 Turn for not on active/operational airfield
  • +1 Turn for engine disabled
  • +1 turn for structural failure 

How much information are availble the stats about damage on individual airplane parts? Is something like that even possible on the technical side with IL2?

 

I would go as far as suggest not only this, but this and the notion that :

 

Any sortie which does not end in death or capture should count towards regaining one's aircraft.

 

 

There is enough punishment for defeat in place that self-preservation behaviors are more than "encouraged",  I reckon. 

 

In fact, devil-may-care attitudes have been suppressed so far that equally inauthentic behaviors of the opposite kind have become the norm.  Whereas in WoL you have pilots who are too reckless, TAW has pilots making tactical decisions which are absurdly conservative.

 

 

For example:   

 

When flying against a largely overwhelming enemy force, (outnumbered 2x1, you know how it goes) one is forced to consider his options as to where best to use his available planes.   

 

It struck me, however, that it would be more advantageous to preserve my personal fleet at the expense of leaving enemy bombers to their business at such a situation.   Once teams had become better balanced, (or unbalanced to the other side, more like) these airplanes would be far more useful to the team's war effort.   

 

There is no sense in wasting such inestimable commodities as a combat-effective fighter to a legion of enemy escorts.  Keeping one's "hangar" full is immensely more important than holding off a few bombs.

 

 A team's destroyed targets return in the next round. A player's lost planes, do not.  

 

 

 

It became brutally clear that indeed, when faced against any possibility of defeat, it is a wiser move not to play.   Noplanes are precious.

 

Any territories lost are more easily regained after conditions have reversed (as they predictably do) than held against unfavorable odds. 

Numerical losses of non-player assets are equally much easier to inflict back upon an eventually outnumbered foe, yet far more costly to prevent in battle.

 

Lost his airplanes, a player becomes a non-factor, incapable of offering any help whatsoever to his team.  He must then resort to "farming" in order to restore his fleet.  A dour proposition at best, and thankless as often as not, with "combat sorties" that are denied upon the slightest of mishaps. (frequently interrupted by the short server map cycle just shy of the required 15 minutes)

 

 

For sure, planes are too valuable to expend in such wanton squander as combat.   Planes are gold, precious. Ground is dirt, cheap.

 

 

 

Therefore, the decisions which the rules of TAW favor as "optimal", are just as much or more absurd and unhistorical than any of the so-called "arcade and gamey" practices seen in less punishing servers.  Less "arcade" yes, but equally "gamey" in any case.    

 

 

Only the style of "gamey" has been replaced in their behaviors:   Instead of Rush, players quickly learn to favor the Grind.

 

 

The result is:

 

Whereas in WoL players fly like "Call of Duty", in TAW players fly like "Farmville" 

Edited by 19//Moach
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It seems the recon pictures of AFs on website are the old ones and don't correspond with the current target layout.

 

The disinformation is real, a large quantity of reconnaissance photos are outdated and incorrect.

 

Kalach for example appears in this form:

ttsWI1A.jpg

 

Where in reality the airfield looks completely different:

rkrL91h.jpg

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Wanted to apologize to Veccu for my bomb blast and him catching some of the bomb fragments. Ruined his 110, and his life.

 

Wasn't my intention, there were a lot of aircraft coming off target, which isn't any excuse.

 

I'm quite sorry.

 

Dont worry Jack, I m alive and breathing, it was a pure accident...  just a game.

 

-veccu-

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There is enough punishment for defeat in place that self-preservation behaviors are more than "encouraged",  I reckon. 

 

In fact, devil-may-care attitudes have been suppressed so far that equally inauthentic behaviors of the opposite kind have become the norm.  Whereas in WoL you have pilots who are too reckless, TAW has pilots making tactical decisions which are absurdly conservative.

 

 

 

I have to agree.  Yesterday I followed out another Mig that was heading for a target being bombed by the enemy.   I was a minute behind so by the time I got to the target I had already watched him shoot down one of the three unescorted bombers with ease then I was surprised to see him turn around and and head home leaving the other two bombers to carry on bombing.  He had no leaks, of course he may have been wounded, but it seems more likely he was undamaged and just thought 'OK I have got a kill and I have been flying 5 minutes so it is better if I just land it to get a CM.'   Even with a wound or a fuel leak or lost aileron most people would at least try to get one more bomber but with TAW as soon as you get a kill of any sort, just one truck out of a tank convoy or one bomber from a whole formation,  you suddenly have something more precious than your first born child sitting in the cockpit with you and must get it home alive at all costs.  

 

Sure there are many people who will fight on for the sake of the campaign but even the most dedicated player will hesitate if he has had a run of bad luck and desperately needs some CMs to get his aircraft replaced. I do agree with Moach that there should be a bit more flexibility with the penalties.  If that Mig yesterday had known that getting a kill & bailing over friendly territory would still count as a combat mission and landing on on his wheels on a road would only need one CM to get it back then he would have fought on but still been careful of his life as TAW desires.   Even in real life pilots were seen ramming enemies and bailing to help the war effort.  We might not want to encourage that or to cause an 'unlimited replacements' mindset but at least reduce the penalties a bit when someone tries to get home and does not quite make it but saves the aircraft by landing nicely on a road.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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Earning planes can't be such easy thing as you want 19//Moach. We would see tons of suicide pilots who don't care about planes because they will have them back after mission. I prefer farming planes flying smart than flying stupid. Also if you want to survive more flights start flying cooperative with other players and what I mean is use teamspeak because arranging meeting with other cap flights (squads) over targets by game chat gives a shit and we saw that yesterday over enemy tanks. Ask your squad mates how it works when you are communicating with other squadrons by teamspeak they will tell you, or go to JG4 they are perfect example too.

 

Earning planes by combat missions was developed by purpose to make game tactical and to think if its worth it before you will engage enemy. TAW is not a place for Berloga/WOL style flights.

 

 

EDIT:

Actually I think many squadrons did their homework and learned how to fly deadly with tactics. It is very hard to fly/engage sometimes.

Edited by =LG=Leutnant_Artur
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The disinformation is real, a large quantity of reconnaissance photos are outdated and incorrect.

 

Kalach for example appears in this form:

ttsWI1A.jpg

 

Where in reality the airfield looks completely different:

rkrL91h.jpg

New recon photos will be avaiable soon. We have corrected them already. Edited by =LG=Piciu

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 I think you missed the point of Moaches post Artur.  He is a vocal campaigner for smart flying and RTB whenever possible and I don't think he has any problems with the penalties for being killed.   I think he is arguing  that the penalties for being less than perfect are too 'Black & White',  if you do not fly a perfect mission then you may as well not have bothered trying. He is just asking if there can be a few more graduations between 'You were too reckless and must be penalised' and 'You avoided any risk and will be rewarded for your temerity'.  It is like the war is being run by accountants  :happy:    In real life pilots came home full of holes and sometimes were forced to put down in a field or belly land on the airfield and everyone was happy he put his life on the line and still came back alive. In TAW you are rewarded for being a coward. Only attacking safe targets, or no targets at all,  then running home before any enemy sees you. 

 

I am not saying every pilot does that but it is rewarded if you do.  Fight aggressively but skillfully to stop your town being captured and have one undercarriage leg weakened so it collapses as you land back home and you will be severely punished.    I am new to TAW so maybe I am mistaken but from the manual it seems that bringing your damaged aircraft back to your field and bending a prop is treated the same as just putting it into the first field you see in friendly territory.  That is not encouraging realistic play.  Stay above the fight waiting for a defenceless JU52 and run away as soon as you see a  JU87 that might scratch your paintwork if you come too close and you will be rewarded.   Sure you wont be top of the stats table doing that but an analysis of risk/reward makes that the most 'sensible' thing to do to keep the accountants happy  :biggrin:

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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It's an interesting conversation you guys are having. I've been contemplating on joining TAW, however after reading these types of 'reviews' it does seem you need a full 8hr work day just to fly one mission for a rather questionable reward. And I thought the 5 min penalty was bad, as in I fly in VR so I literally have to sit and stare at a map for 5 mins.. which doesn't translate too well in to a "game" feel (at least in other VR enabled games you can 'spectate' other players, but not in Il2 obviously).

 

I'm glad TAW has a high number of followers (judging by the MP player screen counters), but it's a strange game you guys are playing. :))

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I would like to apologize to Alpha_Bean for my game crashing to main screen during my flight with a He111. He was about to shoot me down when it happened. I offered to set a meeting area so he could shot me down afterwards but he declined but I still would like to say sorry. It was not on purpose ...

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It's an interesting conversation you guys are having. I've been contemplating on joining TAW, however after reading these types of 'reviews' it does seem you need a full 8hr work day just to fly one mission for a rather questionable reward. And I thought the 5 min penalty was bad, as in I fly in VR so I literally have to sit and stare at a map for 5 mins.. which doesn't translate too well in to a "game" feel (at least in other VR enabled games you can 'spectate' other players, but not in Il2 obviously).

 

I'm glad TAW has a high number of followers (judging by the MP player screen counters), but it's a strange game you guys are playing. :))

 

 

It's not so bad.  If you aren't afraid to use your head a little and think about what you're doing, then it's as easy as anything else.

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It's an interesting conversation you guys are having. I've been contemplating on joining TAW, however after reading these types of 'reviews' it does seem you need a full 8hr work day just to fly one mission for a rather questionable reward. And I thought the 5 min penalty was bad, as in I fly in VR so I literally have to sit and stare at a map for 5 mins.. which doesn't translate too well in to a "game" feel (at least in other VR enabled games you can 'spectate' other players, but not in Il2 obviously).

 

I'm glad TAW has a high number of followers (judging by the MP player screen counters), but it's a strange game you guys are playing. :))

 

Give it a try, missions are typically 1 hour and 45 minutes long, if you lose your aircraft, your CM+1's will be replaced for the next mission.

 

TAW happens to be a personal favorite of mine, the 5 minute death timer, rank/ experience and medals, encourages us to try and look after our pilots, and limited AC encourages us to try and look after our planes. Doing a solo sortie against a defense position or tank column, is risky, but if you pull it off it is so damn rewarding. 

 

even defensive patrols in fighters over your own lines can be be rewarding.

 

 

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I would like to apologize to Alpha_Bean for my game crashing to main screen during my flight with a He111. He was about to shoot me down when it happened. I offered to set a meeting area so he could shot me down afterwards but he declined but I still would like to say sorry. It was not on purpose ...

 

I can just imagine you, had he accepted, level autopilot at the remote meeting area, putzing slowly to give Alpha_Bean his kill. You close your eyes, lean you head back and think of happier times, while awaiting the cold hug of death in Bean form...

Edited by 19//curiousGamblerr
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It's an interesting conversation you guys are having. I've been contemplating on joining TAW, however after reading these types of 'reviews' it does seem you need a full 8hr work day just to fly one mission for a rather questionable reward. And I thought the 5 min penalty was bad, as in I fly in VR so I literally have to sit and stare at a map for 5 mins.. which doesn't translate too well in to a "game" feel (at least in other VR enabled games you can 'spectate' other players, but not in Il2 obviously).

 

I'm glad TAW has a high number of followers (judging by the MP player screen counters), but it's a strange game you guys are playing. :))

You should try it! Online wars are the best fun you can have in flight sims IMO.

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hello,

 

for some reason I have two usernames with my email.
Username I want to keep: 7.GShAP/kOepi

Username I want to get rid of:

7-GvShAP/kOepi [unlocked] currently I cannot play on the server, because it kicks me when I start the engine.

Can I or you fix this?

 

greetz

 

kOepi

P.S.:
I cannot join the TS server due to a wrong passowrd

I tried : "in mission briefing"

and

"inmissionbriefing"

what is going on with that?

Edited by 7.GShAP/kOepi

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^@=LG=Leutnant_Artur

 

thanks.
For some reason I cannot get "1946" into lower case. what is up with that?

Edited by 7.GShAP/kOepi

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I would like to apologize to Alpha_Bean for my game crashing to main screen during my flight with a He111. He was about to shoot me down when it happened. I offered to set a meeting area so he could shot me down afterwards but he declined but I still would like to say sorry. It was not on purpose ...

 

I was there to see the frustration aswell!

 

Thanks 4./JG52_Riksen for todays suicidal yet brave attack on enemy airfield at Plesovskiy. 

 

I had a few runs that were great despite heavy opposition and a few ditches.

 

Some very nice flying there with you today.

S!

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LOL that's good:)

I cannot join the TS server due to a wrong passowrd

 

I tried : "in mission briefing"

and

"inmissionbriefing"

 

what is going on with that?

[flash=]

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LOL that's good:)

[flash=]

 

It was all fun and games until Equifax actually did that among other bad decisions...  :wacko:

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Yes, we know that. They will be changed asap.

Thank you. :salute:

Edited by I./JG1_Pragr

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I was there to see the frustration aswell!

 

Thanks 4./JG52_Riksen for todays suicidal yet brave attack on enemy airfield at Plesovskiy. 

 

I had a few runs that were great despite heavy opposition and a few ditches.

 

Some very nice flying there with you today.

S!

Likewise Petter! Definatelly worth it when you have some coordination and courage lol. We should do it again sometime ... see u in the skies

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While I normally have a full hanger, I know that most pilots do not.

 

For those pilots, I believe what ends up happening is:

 

- Pilot likes the idea of TAW, joins the campaign for the first time....

- and gets overwhelmed by land navigation, veteran pilots, engine management, etc. Which causes him to...

- lose all of his fighter planes within the one hour 40 minute time frame. So the pilot has two choices...

 

Note: Pilot may or may not have earned one or two successful "combat" missions during this time frame, but more than likely has been killed at least once.

 

- Pilot either chooses to fly lower classed bombers (like the JU52) or,

- Pilot leaves because he knows that he will likely get crushed in a lower classed plane (since he didn't survive in better planes earlier)

 

After the mission rolls over, the empty hanger'd pilot now has one plane because of CM+1.

-Pilot excited to join the campaign again because... of reasons.

-Pilot gets overwhelmed with all the input required to fly successfully in TAW (versus other servers that have assists)

-Pilot gets shot down, or has a mishap that causes him to lose his plane. Which causes the pilot to...

 

Note: Pilot may or may not have earned one or two successful "combat" missions during this time frame, but more than likely has been killed at least once.

 

- Pilot either chooses to fly lower classed bombers (like the JU52) or,

- Pilot leaves because he knows that he will likely get crushed in a lower classed plane (since he didn't survive in better planes earlier)

 

Repeat the process until the campaign is over, or the pilot stops flying on TAW

 

 

The problem is because of how difficult it is to be rewarded with a new plane for being successful. There needs to be some sort of refactoring of the combat mission system for the average pilot. Three completely successful missions is nearly impossible for most players. If you don't believe me, just go past the top 25 players and you'll see that most of them have a nearly half empty hangers... Pass the top 100 players, and you'll see that their hangers are pretty much depleted or pilots are running transport missions to reacquire planes. The strictness of obtaining planes is too much, and most pilots won't spend their "entertainment time" flying a transport mission. Just food for thought...

 

~~~~~~~~~~~

 

This is just an example of how obtaining planes could be refractored:

 

Once x CM's are reached, restock default planes first, then premium - aka: less valued planes get restocked more often (I assume this is how restocking planes works now, but it does seem random)

 

With less than 10 hours played:

1.5 combat missions for each successful take off, damaged done (play the objective in some form or fashion), and return home

1 combat mission for each successful take off, damage done, and ditch within 1km of airfield's center point

.5 combat missions for each successful take off, 15 minute flight, and landing or ditch within 1km of airfield's center point

1 combat mission for successful transport mission (take off, flight, and good landing... no points for messing up landing on transport flights to new airfields)

Only 2 combat missions required to obtain a bomber or attack plane (except IL-2 at 3 CMs)

3 CM still required for all fighters

CM+2 on map rotation on fighter craft that would normally be +1

CM+2 on map rotation on "lesser" bombers (such as the Ju87)

No points awarded for ditching beyond 1km radius of airfield, but plane can be repaired and returned to player after 3 mission rotations 

No points awarded and no plane recovery for bailing out 

 

This would encourage new players to keep playing even though they get shot down often. It would also help fill the gap between new player that's interested in TAW and the veteran pilot that has no one to shoot down.

 

With more than 10 hours played:

1 combat missions for each successful take off, damaged done (play the objective in some form or fashion), and return home

.5 combat mission for each successful take off, damage done, and ditch within 1km of airfield's center point

.5 combat mission for each successful take off, 15 minute flight, and landing or ditch within 1km of airfield's center point

1 combat mission for successful transport mission (take off, flight, and good landing... no points for messing up landing on transport flights to new airfields)

Only 2 combat missions required to obtain a bomber or attack plane (except IL-2 at 3 CMs)

3 CM still required for all fighters

Removal of CM+1 on Fighter craft

CM+2 on mission rotation on "lesser" bombers (such as the Ju87)

No points awarded for ditching beyond 1km radius of airfield, but plane can be repaired and returned to player after 3 mission rotations 

No points awarded and no plane recovery for bailing out 

 

After 10 hours played, you should know how to handle your plane and handle most things that were originally overwhelming. You still have to earn 3 combat missions, but it's easier to obtain those missions if you have to ditch near an airfield for whatever reason.

 

 

 

TLDR: There's a difference between hardcore and too damn difficult to play. Adjust the combat mission system to benefit new players, not veteran players and you'll most likely see more people playing on TAW than other servers without the loss of realism that LG so desires.

Edited by [TWB]Sketch
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