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Black September IV - Flying Circus


J5_Baeumer
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Black Septermber IV - Flying Circus  

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  1. 1. How do you prefer to fly this introductory campaign?

    • Central and Entente Teams that DO NOT SWITCH each week.
    • Red and Blue Teams that DO SWITCH sides each week.
    • Pilots (not teams) MAY SWITCH sides on a first come, first served space available basis at the start of each weeks mission. Would help even sides if attendance is unpredictable.
  2. 2. Which side would you prefer to fly? (select all that apply)

    • Both (I may wish to fly different sides different weeks sometimes)
    • Either side (put me where you need me if there are teams/sides)
    • German Preferred
    • German Only (don't select other options)
    • Entente Only (don't select other options)
    • Entente Preferred
  3. 3. Do you plan on flying Black September?



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I imagine the Viper 'took over' from the HS S.E.5as, as it was essentially a high-compression version. That being said, there were lots of companies building the S.E, so who knows? The two types were probably in service together by any means. The Aldis was standard. Fuel gauge I'm not so sure on...

Edited by US103_Larner
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Well, there was chronic shortage of HS engines for SEs that ended at the same time Viper was introduced, I wonder if it was supplement or takeover.

On related note, the Dolphin runs on regular HS, not Viper, right?

 

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=IRFC=Hellbender

S.E.5a: Hispano-Suiza 8B(a/b) 200hp + Wolseley Viper V8 200hp (with higher compression than the HS for better altitude performance)

Sopwith Dolphin: Hispano-Suiza 8B(a/b) 200hp

SPAD XIII: Hispano-Suiza 8B(c/d/e) 220hp

 

In-game both the Dolphin and SPAD are listed as having an HS 8Ba. Essentially it's all the same engine block with different compression ratios and reduction gears, much the same as with the 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa on Central scouts.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_8

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15 hours ago, J5_Baeumer said:

S! Talisman, glad you are enjoying the Flying Circus community Black September campaign.  The iron gunsights question was discussed earlier....due to gunsights being part of the same package deal with bomb load outs and photo recce equipment etc.   It's an unfortunate necessity the devs decisions force us into.

 

The inconsistent fuel gauge availability is probably a mission build error we will look into.  Thanks for making us aware.

Many thanks :)

 

My head hurts trying to understand this, I know nothing of mission building, so salute to those that do.

 

I thought I was not allowed a bomb loadout in the SE5a for the campaign, so difficult to understand why that is linked to no Aldis gunsight allowed too.  So are we saying because we do photo recon we can't have an Aldis?  Did the SE5a do photo recon?  I can't carry bombs so I can't have an Aldis?  So if I can carry bombs and don't do photo recon I can have an Aldis?  I am all confused, LOL, but then I am easy to confuse.  I understand none of this.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited by 56RAF_Talisman
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On 9/8/2019 at 4:34 AM, J5_Baeumer said:

When configuring planes with cameras for recon missions, bombs for bombing, etc. a mission builder MUST also pre select other mods such as gunsights etc. at that time of configuring the plane...once these selections are made and locked to facilitate gameplay and the mission design, ALL mods become locked.   Therefore certain other choices must be made and are unable to be left for pilots to make later pre mission.....

 

2 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Many thanks :)

 

My head hurts trying to understand this, I know nothing of mission building, so salute to those that do.

 

I thought I was not allowed a bomb loadout in the SE5a for the campaign, so difficult to understand why that is linked to no Aldis gunsight allowed too.  So are we saying because we do photo recon we can't have an Aldis?  Did the SE5a do photo recon?  I can't carry bombs so I can't have an Aldis?  So if I can carry bombs and don't do photo recon I can have an Aldis?  I am all confused, LOL, but then I am easy to confuse.  I understand none of this.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

I understood from this post from Beaumer that the issue around such modifications was just that because the SE5a was determined to be in the fighter role rather than the ground attack role they needed to lock the bombs as unused. And that the game restricts you to locking everything or nothing on the modification screen, so no locking paticular modifications. So in order to lock those bombs as unused they had to make a decision on whether to take or leave the aldis for everyone that uses the SE5a. No personal choices able to be made.

 

Same thing with the Bristols that are in the reconnaisance roles. These were denied the choice to have bomb loads. Because the radio needed to be forced on them for thier taskings. So therefore every other modification also had to be forced in some manner, which meant deciding that they could not take bombs with them.

 

But the rational for having that forced choice being without aldis rather than with aldis on the SE5a I do not know.

 

@J5_Baeumer Not misrepresenting here am I?

 

Edited by Oliver88
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S!

 

There is a larger concept here. Rules. How many do you need? Say for instance you are doing and early plane set and two seater planes are only allowed one rear gun so they are not OP compared to the scouts. You can make a rule that two seaters can have only one rear gun and rely on the player to be sure to check the proper weapon mod {easy to miss if you had another mod selected on your last flight in this plane} or you can lock weapons mods and no one has to worry about it. There is no intentional or accidental instance of a two seater with two rear guns. You do not have to worry when the parser shows two rear guns even though the weapons were locked. You know instantly that it is a parser glitch.

 

It may cause certain inconveniences but as mission builders become more familiar with what is possible it will get a little better?

 

Fewer rules is better rules. 

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1 hour ago, JG1_Butzzell said:

There is no intentional or accidental instance of a two seater with two rear guns. You do not have to worry when the parser shows two rear guns even though the weapons were locked. You know instantly that it is a parser glitch.

 

Only if you're confident that there can be no other possible cause.

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8 hours ago, Oliver88 said:

the game restricts you to locking everything or nothing on the modification screen, so no locking paticular modifications. So in order to lock those bombs as unused they had to make a decision on whether to take or leave the aldis for everyone that uses the SE5a. No personal choices able to be made.

Not really.  Servers like Wings of Liberty or TAW are able to lock certain load outs while allowing others to be freely chosen.  TAW for example on some maps locks the big bombs for the JU-88 while allowing other modifications to be freely chosen.  Another example on TAW is that on map 3 the Lagg-3 has the 23mm cannon mod locked, but yet I can select bombs or rockets as part of my load out if I wanted to.  I have no clue why this wouldn't work with the Flying Circus planes.  What could be done I think is lock out bombs and extra guns for the recon Bristol, but allow the camera as choose able option instead of forcing the recon plane to take a camera. 

Edited by -332FG-Garven
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12 minutes ago, -332FG-Garven said:

Not really.  Servers like Wings of Liberty or TAW are able to lock certain load outs while allowing others to be freely chosen.  TAW for example on some maps locks the big bombs for the JU-88 while allowing other modifications to be freely chosen.  Another example on TAW is that on map 3 the Lagg-3 has the 23mm cannon mod locked, but yet I can select bombs or rockets as part of my load out if I wanted to.  I have no clue why this wouldn't work with the Flying Circus planes.

 

Just repeating what has been said in this topic so take it up with them;

 

On 9/8/2019 at 4:34 AM, J5_Baeumer said:

When configuring planes with cameras for recon missions, bombs for bombing, etc. a mission builder MUST also pre select other mods such as gunsights etc. at that time of configuring the plane...once these selections are made and locked to facilitate gameplay and the mission design, ALL mods become locked.   Therefore certain other choices must be made and are unable to be left for pilots to make later pre mission.....

 

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Well, the German scouts have the collimator locked and iron sights pre-selected, but we are still able to turn off the abomination and fly with no sights. (please don't fix ;) !) .Not sure if the same can be done for SE, but it does happen. 

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28 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Ok, I get it. So it's all-or-nothing if plane has bomb loadout as a mod?

And it still doesn't make sense because Wing of Liberty locks bombs on fighters while leaving other options such as extra guns or armor mods available.

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1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Ok, I get it. So it's all-or-nothing if plane has bomb loadout as a mod?

Thing is, SE5a bombs are not allowed and it seems like it is not 'all or nothing' because fuel gauge and cockpit light are allowed.  So it seems like some mods, but not others?  My head still hurts.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

Edited by 56RAF_Talisman
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48 minutes ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Thing is, SE5a bombs are not allowed and it seems like it is not 'all or nothing' because fuel gauge and cockpit light are allowed.  So it seems like some mods, but not others?  My head still hurts.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

Drink more whiskey.

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I took the explanation to mean a 'category' of loadout thing, with locking being set by category.

 

So gunsights are in the weapons category and locked together with bombs etc, but fuel gauge and cockpit light are not. 

Edited by US103_Baer
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J5_Matthias-Sch27b

In general order of previous comments:

 

1.  Server performance issues - The performance warning spam telling you to contact the server admins occurs when the server reaches essentially 50% resource capacity.  It's WAY in advance of a server meltdown.  Yes the messages are annoying, but the long and short of it is - we needed large scale tests with many players and AI planes anyway to really determine the true limits of what IL2 can take vs ROF as an engine.  As a couple individuals were so kind to point out, other server operators have already explored those limits and don't get these messages.  Good for them.  We've collected enough data now to define that limit and we know generally why and how that 50% threshold was reached.

 

Speaking of which, you may have noticed that the server only provided a performance warning a couple times in the mission this last week.  That's because the way that the AI plane ferry flights were handled was changed to help prevent a build-up of AI planes in the pattern backed up for landing.  Ordering planes to land in IL2 works COMPLETELY differently than in ROF.  Unfortunately the only way you learn things like this is by doing and experiencing the results.  The change worked, it will be retrofitted to all previous missions and utilized in future missions.

 

The issues with hit report lag are ping and distance related between hosts - not directly part of the above issue.  Can't solve those issues as far as I know.  It's not a RAM/CPU issue.

 

2.  Why can't I run the Aldis sight? - Because I can configure a standard loadout for each plane and the Entente planes work differently than the Central when it comes to the gun sight options.  Each plane configures different types of mods into different slots on the plane, but you can't offer two or more choices of the same type because they conflict against the same mod slot.  So - I can provide only ONE sight option into the sight mod slot per plane.

 

But then why can I get a fuel gauge and a cockpit light and a clock and an altimeter all together?  Those are all instruments!  -  Because each of THOSE mods are their own separate TYPE so they all get their own separate special slot.

 

That means, if I set the SE5a to the Aldis, it's either the Aldis or NO SIGHT for everybody.  No other option to go back to the regular default sight exists for the SE5a at that point.  On the Central side, if I were to provide an alternate sight option, many of the planes would not be negatively impacted by a no sight alternate because of the placement of the radiator caps and DR.1 cross bracing wires AND some of the Central planes also don't lose the option of the default sight if an alternate sight is made available because the default sight doesn't take up a mod slot, which gives them THREE potential sight options.  Not to mention, WHICH specific special sight does Central then get for their planes?  The fairest option seemed frankly to limit the sights to default for everybody.

 

Yes the Aldis sight is indeed historical, but is it fair to those flying the SE5a to make them fly with either that or NO sight at all?.

 

3.  Why does a bomb mod lockout mean I can't choose other mods? - The mods are either all locked down or unlocked TOGETHER regardless of type.  I cannot unlock specific types of mods such as sights and leave bombs as locked other than to specify ONE single acceptable mod configuration for each available type of mod for each plane.

 

4.  Why isn't AAA flak killing anybody? - Because I'm not a completely evil person.  Everyone transplanting from ROF is getting their feet wet in Flying Circus, IL2 converts probably have no probably concept of what is/how to handle the standard ROF frontline "Flak Wall" that we use in our campaigns, and not to mention the obvious and often repeated "WW2 era guns against WW1 planes" argument.  Flak right now serves only two real purposes.

1 - Marking the general localized presence of enemy planes over the front (because we all hate ROF ambient flak)  This isn't designed to kill anybody, it's informational. 

2.  Actual defense of critical airfields to try and avoid issues with unsportsman-like play.  These guns are set to kill everything.  So if no one is messing with them, then that's in my book, a good thing.  They're working as intended.

 

As for the MG fire - Yep it's brutal.  Work on your dodging and weaving and initial dive attack.  Hopefully it does get toned down with the WW1 weapons but I'm not holding my breath.

 

An additional note on lethal WW2 MGs specifically on the trains.  I believe the reason the train MGs specifically are somewhat overpowered is because when the train carriages spawn behind the engine they default to normal or high AI no matter what the parent engine is set to.  Effectively only an unmoving MG carriage could ever then be set to "low AI".

 

5.  Not discussed but might as well post here as long as I'm here - Kill messages will be turned off this week in order to prevent message spam to opposing players on AI planes and objectives which get knocked out.  Sorry, I know you like to see who killed who but it's another all or nothing setting courtesy of the IL2 engine.

 

 

Edited by J5_Matthias
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I like the flak the way it is. Historically the shootdown ratio was 1:5,000 rounds. ("Over the Front " YouTube about flak). Also the flak batteries were not placed all along the front but in key areas that they wanted to defend (balloons) or on the trucks fluid with the air war. The flyers would avoid known flak areas while on patrol and cross where there was no AA flak. I think you guys could use this as an opportunity to potentially "funnel" the fights towards certain areas if you include "known flak battery" sites on the map. All this info is in that video, I think J. Guttman presents it.

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8 minutes ago, J5_Matthias said:

That means if I set the SE5a to the Aldis, it's either the Aldis or NO SIGHT for everybody.  No other option to go back to the regular default sight exists for the SE5a at that point.

 

The thing to know about the S.E.5a and Aldis, is that if you use the Aldis, your default home view is centered on that (I assume).  Therefore, if the Aldis is disallowed, your default home view will be centered on the ring that the Aldis is mounted in.  This is still workable....for those not wanting to alter their original home view.  Is that that big of deal? Not on that plane.  But if it's on a plane like the SPAD XIII,  where the standard gun sight view is different than the Aldis view, then yeah, if any of your Ins/Home/Del/End/Pg Up/Pg Dn keys is mapped to some other function, like TIR, and maybe your view change speeds are too fast for accurate setting without altering them temporarily, it becomes a big deal.

 

I request that the Aldis be available as a modification on the Entente planes, whatever that takes.  It can always be de-selected, if not wanted.  But it can't be selected, if disallowed on the server side.  This is not a mod that has any real advantage; it is just an option.  Please enable that.

 

S!  and great work!

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J5_Matthias-Sch27b
12 minutes ago, II./JG1_Luftritter said:

 

I request that the Aldis be available as a modification on the Entente planes, whatever that takes.  It can always be de-selected, if not wanted.

 

Again, that will ELIMINATE the standard sight from almost all if not all Entente aircraft.  I understand you and others have a preference, but I'm going to need serious evidence that that's what the vast majority of the community wants as a standard for 1918 campaigns before we do something that drastic.  Not to mention it's now the last week of an ongoing campaign, with both sides virtually tied...

Edited by J5_Matthias
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5 minutes ago, US103_Talbot said:

I like the flak the way it is. Historically the shootdown ratio was 1:5,000 rounds. ("Over the Front " YouTube about flak). Also the flak batteries were not placed all along the front but in key areas that they wanted to defend (balloons) or on the trucks fluid with the air war. The flyers would avoid known flak areas while on patrol and cross where there was no AA flak. I think you guys could use this as an opportunity to potentially "funnel" the fights towards certain areas if you include "known flak battery" sites on the map. All this info is in that video, I think J. Guttman presents it.

 

Hear him.  I am actually very surprised that the ratio was one in 5,000 rounds; that seems pretty optimistic.  From reading it seems that being actually shot down by flak was almost unheard of; although having bursts near you was very common.  In most cases, you might come back with holes in your wings, or even be wounded; and of course, there are the actual shoot-downs recorded.  But those would have to be the proverbial "golden BB" hits that just can't be accepted on any repetitive basis in normal events.

 

This is an argument that probably goes back for a LONG way.  But the basic concept of flak batteries being concentrated in specific areas, can't really be argued with.  Let us stick to reality, an not use such things as tools to obtain any specific goals.  In that respect, I thank the makers of B.S.   It has provided me with a feeling for realism (flak included) that seems quite like what the reality was, based on statistics and accounts.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

S!

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J5_Matthias-Sch27b
25 minutes ago, US103_Talbot said:

I like the flak the way it is. Historically the shootdown ratio was 1:5,000 rounds. ("Over the Front " YouTube about flak). Also the flak batteries were not placed all along the front but in key areas that they wanted to defend (balloons) or on the trucks fluid with the air war. The flyers would avoid known flak areas while on patrol and cross where there was no AA flak. I think you guys could use this as an opportunity to potentially "funnel" the fights towards certain areas if you include "known flak battery" sites on the map. All this info is in that video, I think J. Guttman presents it.

 

I will look into the video, I have read extensively on the "funneling" system over the years.  I like the idea of providing intel to the enemy of the flak battery positions.  That would avoid a lot of gotcha moments that were a highlight of many of the old Syndicate Server flak defenses which I both loved for their simplicity of execution and funneling, but hated because you had to fly the map several times before memorizing the general positions to avoid almost certain death up to 2000m within 5km -  and even then...

Edited by J5_Matthias
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29 minutes ago, J5_Matthias said:

 

Again, that will ELIMINATE the standard sight from almost all if not all Entente aircraft.  I understand you and others have a preference, but I'm going to need serious evidence that that's what the vast majority of the community wants as a standard for 1918 campaigns before we do something that drastic.  Not to mention it's now the last week of an ongoing campaign, with both sides virtually tied...

 

I don't pretend to understand the limitations; I only ask.  BUT....If you allow the Aldis, and then (if it is your preference) de-select it....does it not go back to the DEFAULT configuration?  Considering if you had your home view set up for that....would it not be easy to simply de-select the Aldis and then be at default?

 

If you disallow the Aldis, it's IMPOSSIBLE to use it.  But if you make it an option, is it not possible to use it,  OR....deselct it and then end up with the default config?  I stand to be corrected.

 

I think it is important to define what is accepted as the "standard" gun sight.  IMHO, that would have to mean whatever sight that you can see if you have NO modifications selected; and in many (if not most) cases, that is actually the best gun sight (or at least the basis) for each plane.  So, in my own humble assumptions, I would assume you could see either the the Aldis....or if deselected, the "standard" home view gun sight.  In any case, it would not be the optional mod of the "iron" sight, which is just another mod option. 

 

Please accept my apologies for my own ignorance.  If this is really that big of a limitation, I blame the devs, not you.

 

S!

Edited by II./JG1_Luftritter
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Brilliant event, and thanks so much to Jasta 5 for hosting it. Very proud to have been a part of Flying Circus's first organised event, and I very much look forwards to next years. Thanks as well to everybody who flew and made the event so enjoyable! 

Here's the final 'Press Release' - Until next year ;) : 

usceDwM.png

Edited by US103_Larner
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8 hours ago, US103_Larner said:

Here's the final 'Press Release' - Until next year ;) : 

 

Good work.  However why you decided that german victory in september ? Final score was not posted yet. Intresting pilots list, three of german pilots are chute jampers, some was not included. Unfortunately you not mention guys who eran the victory for them teams on twoseaters far behind the enemy line in the mud.

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J99_Himmelhund
28 minutes ago, Adler_Blau said:

 

Thanks, to the organizers, but also to the participants! It was fun!

Edited by J99_Himmelhund
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12 hours ago, J2_Bidu said:

Thanks to Jasta 5 for another great work. You brought the community into the future, fellows!

 

Imagem relacionada

 

Great picture Bidu. Sums up the community response to BS really well. 

Thanks for all the hard work J5, it can only get better!

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