Combat Box by Red Flight

[Alonzo]

On 5/15/2021 at 5:19 PM, CIA_Elanski said:

I was telling you that people were stating they were leaving because it was dark.  Got nothing to do with FNF.  People said, "I'm leaving, I can't see anything".  And anger is good dear sir...gets shit done.

 

The mission start times are randomized by a script. The intent is never to go "too dark" on the mission. Which mission was it that was too dark? I can look at the script and make sure it's configured correctly.

 

As to the comments about the Velikye Luki map, well, we've had the opposite feedback from a bunch of players too, that they like it a lot and it's a nice change from the late war stuff all the time.

4 hours ago, II/JG11_ATLAN_VR said:

we II/JG11,  would like to fly the me262 in some Maps also,we think she is a little bit underrepresentated in the missions,perfect she  will be in mitchell men, to intercept the b25s. we Would like to hear yr comments.

 

The problem is that when a competent pilot gets in the 262, they don't go shoot bombers, they get an ace-in-a-flight against Allied pilots. The Allied pilots think the jet isn't fun to fly against, so they all leave the server. As it is currently there are up to 6 or 8 jets available on the jet maps, depending on player numbers. The jets are very vulnerable at takeoff, though, and a group of plucky Allied pilots have made it their mission to go jet hunting, kind of like Elmer Fudd "hunting wabbits".
 

We don't have plans to unlock extra jets; German fliers need to properly protect the jet field and make use of them.

[Sketch]

FRIDAY NIGHT FLIGHTS and SATURDAY ENCORE FLIGHTS

 

FnF Date/Time

SeF Date/Time

Server: Combat Box FnF and SeF Server

Comms: IL2 SRS

---> REGISTRATION PAGE <---

---> MISSION BRIEFING <---

 

This week will be a repeat of last week’s mission. If you flew Allied or Axis last week, now is your chance to try the other side…

After setting up airfields at Agoy and Lazarev, Axis Command has decided to make a push against the wood industries in the South of Kuban. Allied refugees and troops from the coast are being transported via rail to Khan City while in pursuit of the 8th mobile infantry. Meanwhile, the 66th have set up radar to help support the Allied defense, but radar is limited in the mountain ranges where Axis intend to strike...

 

Can the Axis destroy enough objectives within the limited time frame (2 hours) or can the Allies hold them off with the use of radar?

 

Sign up now to find out!

 

Planes:

P51 vs Bf109K4 

SpitfireXIV vs Fw190D9

P47D22 vs Fw190A6

P47D28 vs Bf110G2

 

SRS Installation

Please note: All participants must be on and use SRS.

Get Skins Here

SRS install guide

 

 

Want to know what Friday Night Flights and Saturday Encore Flights is like? Check out this video here:

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Sketch

[CIA_Elanski]

It was the ardennes map.

 

I know you all get asked to have russian plane set.  You know better than i what has been in the forums.  But what people who ACTUALLY fly in the central and pacific times zones  is not what other time zones like.  I rarely see anyone who likes Velukie except the german pilots.  When I fly Velukie, which aint often, mostly it is german pilots that have anything good to say.

 

So again, what is said in forums is different than who actually will fly those maps.  Even in the prime evening hours the numbers will drop because they dont want to fly the pe2 or IL2 and especially in the US evening time.   Check all that data you all collect from your whizmo and tell me there are guys flying il2s and pe2s to target on Velukie?  I have rarely seen one in the air.    

 

 

 

 

[Alonzo]

28 minutes ago, CIA_Elanski said:

It was the ardennes map.

 

I know you all get asked to have russian plane set.  You know better than i what has been in the forums.  But what people who ACTUALLY fly in the central and pacific times zones  is not what other time zones like.  I rarely see anyone who likes Velukie except the german pilots.  When I fly Velukie, which aint often, mostly it is german pilots that have anything good to say.

 

So again, what is said in forums is different than who actually will fly those maps.  Even in the prime evening hours the numbers will drop because they dont want to fly the pe2 or IL2 and especially in the US evening time.   Check all that data you all collect from your whizmo and tell me there are guys flying il2s and pe2s to target on Velukie?  I have rarely seen one in the air.

 

I've updated the script for a lighter evening on Ardennes, should it pick the latest in the day time slot. I think the longer 3 hour mission times exacerbate the darkness at the end of the final mission of the day, so thank you for pointing out the problem.

 

The Velikie mission has the A-20, so if people want to fly an American ground attacker they can do so.

 

I'm not a data scientist so I can't weed out the noise from the signal in our player numbers. Do people really leave because they dislike a particular map? Or because the previous map finished and now they're going to bed? Or because it's Wednesday? Or because TAW is running and their squad is flying over there?

 

We've got plenty of "prime evening US hours" where all the pilots are flying on Finnish, and (depending on the stage of the campaign) that server does not have all the late war aircraft either.

 

It's pretty tiring chasing around after player feedback all the time. I appreciate that you're passionate about it and want to fly on CB, which is great, but you've gotta realize this feedback is opposite to what some other pilots feel. And if it's Europe prime time and the server is seeded, we can get 70 players on the mission, so it's hard for me to conclude people hate it.

[=Elite=BlitzPuppet]

22 hours ago, II/JG11_ATLAN_VR said:

Hi

we II/JG11,  would like to fly the me262 in some Maps also,we think she is a little bit underrepresentated in the missions,perfect she  will be in mitchell men, to intercept the b25s. we Would like to hear yr comments.

thx 

II/JG11_ATLAN

 

 

We made the same request as we'd like to fly the 262s together in Elite on schnellbomber sorties, but it's the same argument each time.  Allies don't like the 262 as they "aren't fun to fly against" so we're stuck with limited 262s.

 

The aggravating thing though is the whole server gets a broadcast when the 262s are fueling, when they're available, and even when the fuel train is halfway to target.  The Venlo (going from memory on the name here) field only allowed D9s to spawn, so I came from another airfield in a K4 DC to cover a squaddie in a 262 starting up.  A tempest was hovering around and popped in just as he spawned.  I tried to intercept but in no way could catch up, even in clean config with a DC engine at 100%, but did manage to chase him off.

 

The sad thing is that Fox "finished mission" with a damaged/strafed (but not destroyed) 262, thinking that maybe that would prevent it from getting completely destroyed by another strafer.  Either someone else grabbed the 262, or the stocks don't get refilled once the mission is ended as he wasn't able to respawn.

 

Historically speaking the Allies did strafe the 262s on landing and takeoff, I don't disagree with that.  The thing is the Jet airbases do not have much AA from what I saw at venlo, I only saw what looked like 88 flak bursts and not much MG fire if any from the ground.  For a server that has strict rules and methods on combating vulching I find this hilarious.

 

262 limits do seem a little harsh, and I'm curious to see how, good or bad, Alonzo will handle the 234 situation when it's released.

 

Right now all I can do is say if you want to fly the 262 you just better go fly on it Berloga.

[CIA_Elanski]

I been flying sims 20 years Alonzo.  I know admin wear down and are extremely busy.  There is no pleasing people.  Yes, I have fired up the game, found Velukie on and said to hell with it and left.  I have flown it several times and just dont care for it.  I can speak for my squad, no one likes russian plane set.  period.  We waited a long time for the American planes and we dont want to fly russian.  That is why we fly Combat box, not wings or any other server with russian planes.

 

Thank you for adjusting the time set for Ardennes.  I like that map and it is heart breaking to fly the last hour in the dark.  All I could do is go to 20000 feet and look down.  up and lateral was no good.  Ground pounding was not an option and you know by my stats I like hitting targets, then fighting.  

 

After all the bitching and whining I do, I really appreciate your server and the work you all do.  I want it to stay strong because i like flying there.  I aint been in the forums for some time because I love flying, not typing.  when i get mad i come type

 

Hey BlitzPuppe,

 

I find it fun and a challenge to fight 262.  The easy part is avoiding them, but you gotta see them to not get shot.  I love sitting up high and when someone calls him out in team chat i dive on them.   LOVE the chess match of trying to dive, cut corner or whatever to get a shot in on one!  I am with ya, some maps might be better with a few more 262s.  What i disagree with is how bullet proof they are.  262 engines were not made from the best metals and a little .50 cal inside one should ruin the engine.  The devs made it to resistant to damage.  But I still love the challenge of looking for them and then trying to not get shot by them.  

[=Elite=BlitzPuppet]

38 minutes ago, CIA_Elanski said:

Hey BlitzPuppe,

 

 

I find it fun and a challenge to fight 262.  The easy part is avoiding them, but you gotta see them to not get shot.  I love sitting up high and when someone calls him out in team chat i dive on them.   LOVE the chess match of trying to dive, cut corner or whatever to get a shot in on one!  I am with ya, some maps might be better with a few more 262s.  What i disagree with is how bullet proof they are.  262 engines were not made from the best metals and a little .50 cal inside one should ruin the engine.  The devs made it to resistant to damage.  But I still love the challenge of looking for them and then trying to not get shot by them.  

Elanski,

 

Always enjoy going up against you and your squadmates. 

 

DM is hit or miss right now on a lot of things, but that's the sim/game in general as well as some of the netcode I'm sure.  Been like that since rise of flight.

 

I always find it funny to see a 262 get baited into a turning fight/scissors, then get confused on how they lost.  The 262 is not an automatic win button, it's basically a BNZ only/fast bomber plane.  Boom and Zoom has always has been an annoying tactic to defend against because you always have to keep your head on a swivel and continuously WORK on your situational awareness.  It's funny because the new sound features they implemented makes it so you can hear the planes loud as day behind you so you can tell when someone is diving in.

 

I definitely think they should keep the fuel regulating upgrade locked on the 262 if they aren't already.  Punish those who don't make careful adjustments to the throttle and keep RPMs in check.

[RedKestrel]

46 minutes ago, =Elite=BlitzPuppet said:

We made the same request as we'd like to fly the 262s together in Elite on schnellbomber sorties, but it's the same argument each time.  Allies don't like the 262 as they "aren't fun to fly against" so we're stuck with limited 262s.

 

The aggravating thing though is the whole server gets a broadcast when the 262s are fueling, when they're available, and even when the fuel train is halfway to target.  The Venlo (going from memory on the name here) field only allowed D9s to spawn, so I came from another airfield in a K4 DC to cover a squaddie in a 262 starting up.  A tempest was hovering around and popped in just as he spawned.  I tried to intercept but in no way could catch up, even in clean config with a DC engine at 100%, but did manage to chase him off.

 

The sad thing is that Fox "finished mission" with a damaged/strafed (but not destroyed) 262, thinking that maybe that would prevent it from getting completely destroyed by another strafer.  Either someone else grabbed the 262, or the stocks don't get refilled once the mission is ended as he wasn't able to respawn.

 

Historically speaking the Allies did strafe the 262s on landing and takeoff, I don't disagree with that.  The thing is the Jet airbases do not have much AA from what I saw at venlo, I only saw what looked like 88 flak bursts and not much MG fire if any from the ground.  For a server that has strict rules and methods on combating vulching I find this hilarious.

 

262 limits do seem a little harsh, and I'm curious to see how, good or bad, Alonzo will handle the 234 situation when it's released.

 

Right now all I can do is say if you want to fly the 262 you just better go fly on it Berloga.

In my opinion, the 262 is not a plane - its a strategic objective for both sides on any map that its on. Even if its not explicitly an objective, it becomes one for the Allies, because even one jet requires serious adaptation in tactics to deal with. It's not like a K-4 where you have at least some planes that can meet them on equal terms or superior terms - it's too fast and too well armed, and as Elanski noted, actually pretty damage resistant. 

When you see Allied pilots bombing the fuel train and shooting up the airfields, what you're seeing is a significant amount of effort and risk being put forward by part of the team to destroy strategic objectives. Hitting the fuel train from Venlo requires a long flight across enemy territory, and you gotta push it to get there on time. If you get intercepted halfway there and shot down, your chances of getting back before the fuel reaches the airfield is very low. And once you're done its a long way back, with enemy fighters probably chasing you the whole way.

 

So axis has to decide if they want to sink resources into defending their strategic objective. It's less time consuming and less risky for the pilots as they are over friendly territory and closer to those airfields. The incentive for the Axis to defend that is for the strategic advantage of having jets in the air that basically dictate enemy tactics and consume their resources to counter. Of course, its a bit of a sting when you spend hours defending the airfield while other guys get to fly the wunderwaffe, which makes people less likely to do it. Other than some dedicated pilots taking one for the team, not sure what the solution is there.

I'm not a guy who wants to see the 262 eliminated from a server but I have to laugh when squads say they want to be able to all fly the 262 at once. Schnellbomber? Sure you guys might do that, and that would be historical and cool to see on the server, but in reality you will just as often get three or four guys from JGSomethingOrOther  just shutting down the entire front line with coordinated jet fighters, after jettisoning their bombs. 

There are limitations on the Tempests and you see the same requests for Allied squads wanting to fly the Tempest all together, and can't manage it either because of often-limited numbers. What's good for the prop-goose is good for the jet-gander. 

11 minutes ago, =Elite=BlitzPuppet said:

Elanski,

 

Always enjoy going up against you and your squadmates. 

 

DM is hit or miss right now on a lot of things, but that's the sim/game in general as well as some of the netcode I'm sure.  Been like that since rise of flight.

 

I always find it funny to see a 262 get baited into a turning fight/scissors, then get confused on how they lost.  The 262 is not an automatic win button, it's basically a BNZ only/fast bomber plane.  Boom and Zoom has always has been an annoying tactic to defend against because you always have to keep your head on a swivel and continuously WORK on your situational awareness.  It's funny because the new sound features they implemented makes it so you can hear the planes loud as day behind you so you can tell when someone is diving in.

 

I definitely think they should keep the fuel regulating upgrade locked on the 262 if they aren't already.  Punish those who don't make careful adjustments to the throttle and keep RPMs in check.

What's most frustrating about the sound is that a couple updates ago I swear it was at least mostly fixed. Now you can hear the planes again. Just rear warning radar. I hate it even when it lets me know someone's behind me.

[Alonzo]

2 hours ago, =Elite=BlitzPuppet said:

Allies don't like the 262 as they "aren't fun to fly against" so we're stuck with limited 262s.

 

The problem with 262s is that pilots who know what they are doing are literally untouchable in them, and you regularly see 5-15 kill sorties from a 262. We had lots of 262s when they were initially available, and Allied pilots stopped showing up on those missions. I restricted the numbers, then German players figured out they could look after the plane and keep respawning it, at which point some missions had 6+ jets flying around by the end of the mission. Allied pilots complained, rightly. So I restricted the 262s further -- you get one spawn and they don't go back in the pool.

 

Today, the jets tend to get picked up by players who were waiting for them and know what they're doing. So they are flown well and do a lot of damage to the other team. While I appreciate that you and your squad want to fly 262s, you also (presumably) want people to fly against. You can't legislate how Allied players feel, and personally I think it's legitimate for them to say a jet is OP against their prop planes, drains their SA, and feels unfair. We've restricted the 262 for those reasons, and frankly I think it's great that Allied pilots are harrying them on the ground, exactly as they would in real life. In real life, those Doras would have been used to patrol the airspace and protect the jets.

 

The Arado doesn't have forward firing guns, so it'll be less of an issue.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Even though I think a certain map sucks.  You still do a good job Alonzo.  Would not want to be you.  ?

[Creep]

19 hours ago, =Elite=BlitzPuppet said:

Right now all I can do is say if you want to fly the 262 you just better go fly on it Berloga.

Or do what was done in the war, defend them on takeoff and landing.

[LR.CrimsonLion]

I only flew Ardennes the other night when it was dark.  I didn't mind it other than the issue with the forest and my inability to track aircraft, that occurs even in day light but that may be due to VR.  Easier to see tracers though which was cool. 

 

I like having at least one of the Russian maps in the rotation.  I'd like to see the Stalingrad map come back with the Mitchell's Men vibe (not sure of the name).  

 

"Go fly somewhere else"... becomes more and more  difficult the more cool stuff CB continues to come up with.

[Alonzo]

If anyone's interested in what Friday Night Flights (and Saturday Encore Flights) are about, check this video from @Kablamoman -- filmed in ultra-wide HD, ultra graphics, and with live comms. Great video, editing, and camera work here.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Alonzo
Updated video link

[kissTheSky]

was this SRS in action? If so it seems quite nice. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by kissTheSky

[Sketch]

4 hours ago, kissTheSky said:

was this SRS in action? If so it seems quite nice. 

Yes, everyone (all 80+ players) are on SRS throughout the event. Each flight is in it's own SRS channel (typically 4-8 pilots) in their second radio, and flight leads can communicate to the other flights through the first radio.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Sketch

[Alonzo]

I'll just leave this here.

 

[RedKestrel]

4 hours ago, Alonzo said:

I'll just leave this here.

 

P-40 is clearly OP, pls nerf.

Also the Spit XIV topping out the killboard is hilarious. Its probably just because its getting flown a lot on maps where the 262 is available but it makes me chuckle a bit anyway.

[iFoxRomeo]

Anyone interested in stats? E.g. how does a specific airframe perform? Which one is the top predator?

I made some graphs here:

 

Fox

[=Elite=Foxtrot7]

On 5/17/2021 at 4:20 PM, Alonzo said:

 

The problem with 262s is that pilots who know what they are doing are literally untouchable in them, and you regularly see 5-15 kill sorties from a 262. We had lots of 262s when they were initially available, and Allied pilots stopped showing up on those missions. I restricted the numbers, then German players figured out they could look after the plane and keep respawning it, at which point some missions had 6+ jets flying around by the end of the mission. Allied pilots complained, rightly. So I restricted the 262s further -- you get one spawn and they don't go back in the pool.

 

Today, the jets tend to get picked up by players who were waiting for them and know what they're doing. So they are flown well and do a lot of damage to the other team. While I appreciate that you and your squad want to fly 262s, you also (presumably) want people to fly against. You can't legislate how Allied players feel, and personally I think it's legitimate for them to say a jet is OP against their prop planes, drains their SA, and feels unfair. We've restricted the 262 for those reasons, and frankly I think it's great that Allied pilots are harrying them on the ground, exactly as they would in real life. In real life, those Doras would have been used to patrol the airspace and protect the jets.

 

The Arado doesn't have forward firing guns, so it'll be less of an issue.

While I can understand some of the restrictions placed on the 262, I found particularly frustrating was the fact that even if you land or respawn with a perfectly intact plane, it does not refill the pool. It’s already limited to only 2 planes, and only when there’s 40+ players in the sever. I had an issue where I (like I’m certain many players often do) spawned in and forgot I wanted to change my plane setup. Didn’t even try the startup procedure. Finished the mission, and boom, zero planes available. 

 

Then I had another instance where I was having trouble getting the engines started (maybe more practice is due). After the 3rd engine spool down and re start the sever kicked me for inactivity. Again nothing damaged. The vehicle again wasted.

 

Compared to all the other limitations, this one just seems like over kill for the 262. And if this limit setup is the same for the tempest, I would think it’s also over kill for the allies side. Again as it is now, the amount of players needed to be present on both sides in the sever for it to even be available; it would be a negligible difference in turning the tide of which side wins. It’s not like it’s 2 jets flying with only 15 people in the sever. I would find it hard to believe that allied team would STILL complain about 2 planes against a team of 20+. Doing it right, By the time you startup, get going, and hopefully don’t get jumped, popped good by AAA, and don’t stall the engines, allies have already done a good bit of damage.

 

And to the gentlemen who made the point of the allies having to completely change their tactics with the 262 in the A.O. Yes that’s right. Since we’re going for historical accuracy and all, the allies in WWII did have to handle the jets in a different manner than another prop plane. I don’t see the issues there. Other plane sets demand a change of tactics as well. Generally from what I’ve experienced as an example, a 109 fighting a Yak, mig, or Lagg, has to completely change the way they approach the fight if running into a spitfire or a hurricane, as both planes posses an extreme significant maneuverability advatange over the 109. And as stated before, the tempest as it sits now can generally outrun any prop plane in level flight (although not sure when compared to a griffin spit). Point is, yes, adaptability is necessary and the 262 is not an instant victory card, and not by any means easy to fly. It’s fast and has big guns, that’s pretty much it. Unless you keep its speed up, you’re easy prey to allied planes of the time. Pretty much anything will out turn it. And hitting another plane is harder at high speed and closed cockpit. It has clear weaknesses and even an experienced player can mess the whole thing up in a few seconds.

 

I’m all for the historical details of the sever and plane sets and it’s a ton of fun to fly, but it just sucks that we all paid to enjoy and experience the  plane a little and it feels like we can only enjoy them in the offline missions. Again, I think the idea of losing the plane after a no damage respawn WITH THE LIMIT OF ONLY 2 PLANES, is a bit excessive, and we should at least get the opportunity to change the loadout, or keep the plane after a successful no crash landing. 

[RedKestrel]

3 minutes ago, =Elite=Foxtrot7 said:

While I can understand some of the restrictions placed on the 262, I found particularly frustrating was the fact that even if you land or respawn with a perfectly intact plane, it does not refill the pool. It’s already limited to only 2 planes, and only when there’s 40+ players in the sever. I had an issue where I (like I’m certain many players often do) spawned in and forgot I wanted to change my plane setup. Didn’t even try the startup procedure. Finished the mission, and boom, zero planes available. 

 

Then I had another instance where I was having trouble getting the engines started (maybe more practice is due). After the 3rd engine spool down and re start the sever kicked me for inactivity. Again nothing damaged. The vehicle again wasted.

 

Compared to all the other limitations, this one just seems like over kill for the 262. And if this limit setup is the same for the tempest, I would think it’s also over kill for the allies side. Again as it is now, the amount of players needed to be present on both sides in the sever for it to even be available; it would be a negligible difference in turning the tide of which side wins. It’s not like it’s 2 jets flying with only 15 people in the sever. I would find it hard to believe that allied team would STILL complain about 2 planes against a team of 20+. Doing it right, By the time you startup, get going, and hopefully don’t get jumped, popped good by AAA, and don’t stall the engines, allies have already done a good bit of damage.

 

And to the gentlemen who made the point of the allies having to completely change their tactics with the 262 in the A.O. Yes that’s right. Since we’re going for historical accuracy and all, the allies in WWII did have to handle the jets in a different manner than another prop plane. I don’t see the issues there. Other plane sets demand a change of tactics as well. Generally from what I’ve experienced as an example, a 109 fighting a Yak, mig, or Lagg, has to completely change the way they approach the fight if running into a spitfire or a hurricane, as both planes posses an extreme significant maneuverability advatange over the 109. And as stated before, the tempest as it sits now can generally outrun any prop plane in level flight (although not sure when compared to a griffin spit). Point is, yes, adaptability is necessary and the 262 is not an instant victory card, and not by any means easy to fly. It’s fast and has big guns, that’s pretty much it. Unless you keep its speed up, you’re easy prey to allied planes of the time. Pretty much anything will out turn it. And hitting another plane is harder at high speed and closed cockpit. It has clear weaknesses and even an experienced player can mess the whole thing up in a few seconds.

 

I’m all for the historical details of the sever and plane sets and it’s a ton of fun to fly, but it just sucks that we all paid to enjoy and experience the  plane a little and it feels like we can only enjoy them in the offline missions. Again, I think the idea of losing the plane after a no damage respawn WITH THE LIMIT OF ONLY 2 PLANES, is a bit excessive, and we should at least get the opportunity to change the loadout, or keep the plane after a successful no crash landing. 

Have you ever flown on the allied side when there are multiple 262s in the air?  It’s not at all comparable to flying a 109 vs LaGGs or Yaks or Spitfires or Hurricanes.  It’s the strategic aspect of how much ground they can cover in short times and how many planes they can down in a sortie is what matters. 

 

The 262s aren’t being limited due to some theoretical problem. They are being limited because of actual experiences on the server when they were more plentiful. Other servers limit them too, because they had the same experiences. 

 

[=Elite=Foxtrot7]

6 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Have you ever flown on the allied side when there are multiple 262s in the air?  It’s not at all comparable to flying a 109 vs LaGGs or Yaks or Spitfires or Hurricanes.  It’s the strategic aspect of how much ground they can cover in short times and how many planes they can down in a sortie is what matters. 

 

The 262s aren’t being limited due to some theoretical problem. They are being limited because of actual experiences on the server when they were more plentiful. Other servers limit them too, because they had the same experiences. 

 

And I get that. I have not flown on red side with them in the air, but as of right now, there are only 2 available for blue, it’s only Available when there’s a decent amount of people in the sever, and only when there’s more red than blue. In the combat box sever in particular, which is what I’m focusing on right now, if you spawn and wanna change your loadout or have to leave the sever while parked, the plane gets wasted. With the current limits on the 262 in place right now, and what I have been experiencing MANY TIMES on blue side (which between people who have no clue how to start up or fly it taking the only two 262s, and red always being consistent with straffing/ bombing and server broadcast of the jet re supply)I just think that particular limit is excessive. It’s setup to where it’s just about impossible to fly. And while that’s the point of the allied objective, I think, like any plane, if you make it home and land it, you should be able to re fuel, re arm, and repair (which would take forever given the engine shut down and start process), or respawn without losing the darn plane. Not add more, just try to keep the only 2 blue gets. I’m not asking to fly a whole squad of them, as cool as that would be.

 

I understand the advantages to the 262 and the subject is getting beat to death, but In this case I really think the combat box sever admin should at least reconsider changing the 262 to not lose its plane inventory from a no damage re spawn, or a successful landing. Still keep it where it can only be 2 of them available under the same player number conditions in the sever. 

It would just be nice to be able to fly the 262 once in a blue moon. It’s not my plane of choice by any means but just another cool aspect of enjoying the online part of the game I would like to experience. 

[Barnacles]

7 hours ago, =Elite=Foxtrot7 said:

And I get that. I have not flown on red side with them in the air, but as of right now, there are only 2 available for blue, it’s only Available when there’s a decent amount of people in the sever, and only when there’s more red than blue. In the combat box sever in particular, which is what I’m focusing on right now, if you spawn and wanna change your loadout or have to leave the sever while parked, the plane gets wasted. With the current limits on the 262 in place right now, and what I have been experiencing MANY TIMES on blue side (which between people who have no clue how to start up or fly it taking the only two 262s, and red always being consistent with straffing/ bombing and server broadcast of the jet re supply)I just think that particular limit is excessive. It’s setup to where it’s just about impossible to fly. And while that’s the point of the allied objective, I think, like any plane, if you make it home and land it, you should be able to re fuel, re arm, and repair (which would take forever given the engine shut down and start process), or respawn without losing the darn plane. Not add more, just try to keep the only 2 blue gets. I’m not asking to fly a whole squad of them, as cool as that would be.

 

I understand the advantages to the 262 and the subject is getting beat to death, but In this case I really think the combat box sever admin should at least reconsider changing the 262 to not lose its plane inventory from a no damage re spawn, or a successful landing. Still keep it where it can only be 2 of them available under the same player number conditions in the sever. 

It would just be nice to be able to fly the 262 once in a blue moon. It’s not my plane of choice by any means but just another cool aspect of enjoying the online part of the game I would like to experience. 

Why not try:

 

Spawn in a 262 and not despawn, but instead successfully start the engines? 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Barnacles

[FTC_Riksen]

8 hours ago, =Elite=Foxtrot7 said:

 ... Compared to all the other limitations, this one just seems like over kill for the 262. And if this limit setup is the same for the tempest ...

 

I hope you are not trying to compare the Tempest to a 262. If you are, shame on you ... LW has other capable fighters, like the K4, which are comparable/better than the Tempest. What the Allies do not have is something comparable to the Me-262.

 

8 hours ago, =Elite=Foxtrot7 said:

... I would find it hard to believe that allied team would STILL complain about 2 planes against a team of 20+. Doing it right, By the time you startup, get going, and hopefully don’t get jumped, popped good by AAA, and don’t stall the engines, allies have already done a good bit of damage ...

 

I agree with you here though. I think we do need to see more Me-262s available in some missions. I think 2 is a good number to start with and it would make the missions more challenging for the Allies.

 

8 hours ago, =Elite=Foxtrot7 said:

... Since we’re going for historical accuracy and all, the allies in WWII did have to handle the jets in a different manner than another prop plane. I don’t see the issues there. Other plane sets demand a change of tactics as well. Generally from what I’ve experienced as an example, a 109 fighting a Yak, mig, or Lagg, has to completely change the way they approach the fight if running into a spitfire or a hurricane, as both planes posses an extreme significant maneuverability advatange over the 109.

 

Since we also going for historical accuracy, as you say, let's limit LW pilots spots to only half of those for the Allies, remove the Me-110s from the plane-sets, limit LW planes fuel availability to only like 50%, and decrease to about 1/3 the amount of LW planes that can use MW injection. Problem solved right? ... Yeah, I dont think anyone wants that ... Not even the Allies so you should really drop the historical argument here and consider it more as a balance situation for gameplay. While I agree with you that we could see more Me-262s available, there is no other plane that matches the 262 in the Allied side so some sort of restriction is indeed needed IMHO.

8 hours ago, =Elite=Foxtrot7 said:

... It’s fast and has big guns, that’s pretty much it ...

And that's all you really need in a plane. FASTER than all opposition with big guns are the only two factors that really matter in a plane lol.

7 hours ago, =Elite=Foxtrot7 said:

I understand the advantages to the 262 and the subject is getting beat to death, but In this case I really think the combat box sever admin should at least reconsider changing the 262 to not lose its plane inventory from a no damage re spawn, or a successful landing. Still keep it where it can only be 2 of them available under the same player number conditions in the sever. 

I agree ... Allowing you to respawn with it should be made possible again IMHO as well.

[Barnacles]

46 minutes ago, 41Sqn_Riksen said:

 

I agree ... Allowing you to respawn with it should be made possible again IMHO as well.

Seriously though, the 'problem' with that (adding planes back to the 'pool') is that by the end of the map, you can have 6 or more 262s in the air at once on some maps. 

 

I don't want to get into the argument whether that's OK or not really, but having flown on both sides when that's been the case, it just turns the map into the 262 show, which the first time it happens can be something a bit different and maybe fun, but ultimately such asymmetry in plane capabilities will make the server extremely one-dimensional. 

 

I think if you're trying to control the numbers of a particular aircraft in an IL2 server, the way alonzo has chosen (after careful consideration I might add) is the way to go. 

 

In fact I'd apply the same method to any other plane where you'd want to prevent 'spam', for example on low and medium population maps currently it's possible for the majority of allied planes you meet to be Tempests, which ultimately is less fun and historically credible for most people (apart from the spammers themselves). Changing the rules for the tempest to the same as that used for 262s would allow better control of the numbers. 

 

Any 'wasting' of planes is of course frustrating for those concerned, but IMO that is entirely in the hands of those pilots. It's not CBs fault that other servers have the 'return to pool' feature turned on so people make the assumption that they will be protected from the consequences of making errors. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Barnacles

[JimTM]

2 hours ago, Barnacles said:

Seriously though, the 'problem' with that (adding planes back to the 'pool') is that by the end of the map, you can have 6 or more 262s in the air at once on some maps. 

...

Any 'wasting' of planes is of course frustrating for those concerned, but IMO that is entirely in the hands of those pilots. It's not CBs fault that other servers have the 'return to pool' feature turned on so people make the assumption that they will be protected from the consequences of making errors. 

 

FYI, server admins can use any or all of the following options for replenishing planes:

• "Return Planes" - If a plane is returned intact to the departure base, it gets added back to the original pool at that base.
  With this option, no additional planes are added to the pool.
• "Renewable" - One plane is added to the pool at the departure base at regular intervals (with the interval set by the admin).
  With this option, the pool can grow, assuming the loss rate is not greater than the replacement rate.
• "Float"+"Plane Set" - The current plane pool is replaced by another plane pool, with a different number of planes.

For details, see "Replenish or Change the Planes Available In a Multiplayer Mission" on pg. 115 of the editor manual.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by JimTM
Added "Float+Plane Set" and reference to editor manual.

[=Elite=Foxtrot7]

38 minutes ago, 41Sqn_Riksen said:

 

I hope you are not trying to compare the Tempest to a 262. If you are, shame on you ... LW has other capable fighters, like the K4, which are comparable/better than the Tempest. What the Allies do not have is something comparable to the Me-262.

 

 

I agree with you here though. I think we do need to see more Me-262s available in some missions. I think 2 is a good number to start with and it would make the missions more challenging for the Allies.

 

 

Since we also going for historical accuracy, as you say, let's limit LW pilots spots to only half of those for the Allies, remove the Me-110s from the plane-sets, limit LW planes fuel availability to only like 50%, and decrease to about 1/3 the amount of LW planes that can use MW injection. Problem solved right? ... Yeah, I dont think anyone wants that ... Not even the Allies so you should really drop the historical argument here and consider it more as a balance situation for gameplay. While I agree with you that we could see more Me-262s available, there is no other plane that matches the 262 in the Allied side so some sort of restriction is indeed needed IMHO.

And that's all you really need in a plane. FASTER than all opposition with big guns are the only two factors that really matter in a plane lol.

I agree ... Allowing you to respawn with it should be made possible again IMHO as well.

No not trying to compare it directly to the tempest. Sorry for wrong wording. I’m more just arguing that there are already extreme limits in place on CB server for the 262 availability. The whole losing the plane on a respawn or a successful landing just seems over the top. Just very frustrating when me and my squad work hard to keep the base protected and have an opportunity to fly it. Another thing to mention is the jet base isn’t always available on the map rotations on CB. In my experience, most of time there aren’t enough players to open the jet base, or it’s not even an option on the map

[Psyrion]

5 minutes ago, JimTM said:

 

FYI, server admins can use one or both of the following options for replenishing planes:

• "Return Planes" - If a plane is returned intact to the departure base, it gets added back to the original pool at that base.
  With this option, no additional planes are added to the pool.
• "Renewable" - One plane is added to the pool at the departure base at regular intervals (with the interval set by the admin)
  With this option, the pool can grow, assuming the loss rate is not greater than the replacement rate.

 

Currently it's the third option: Planes get added to the pool in an interval but returning planes do not, for the reason explained by @Barnacles. The idea is to limit the amount of 262s in the air at one time.

[Barnacles]

3 minutes ago, JimTM said:

 

FYI, server admins can use one or both of the following options for replenishing planes:

• "Return Planes" - If a plane is returned intact to the departure base, it gets added back to the original pool at that base.
  With this option, no additional planes are added to the pool.
• "Renewable" - One plane is added to the pool at the departure base at regular intervals (with the interval set by the admin)
  With this option, the pool can grow, assuming the loss rate is not greater than the replacement rate.

 

Indeed, the current system (not have either, but add extra planes via script) is better IMO because you can actually give more people the opportunity to fly a limited plane without saturating the server towards the end of the map/mission. That's a win/win in my book. The only downside as I said is it can frustrate for those not used to it, but once people see the big picture/get used to it that's mitigated.

 

[=Elite=Foxtrot7]

8 hours ago, Barnacles said:

Why not try:

 

Spawn in a 262 and not despawn, but instead successfully start the engines? 

I agree, and I, like many players strive to make sure everything is right the first time before hitting the spawn button. But we’re all human and mistakes will get made. I just don’t think the penalty of losing the plane in the pool should come with a no damage re spawn. Its not just from forgetting to take a certain loadout or having trouble with the plane startup. My thing is say you have game or internet trouble (which everyone experiences from

time to time as high ping does happen, and the game does crash or bug out as it is not perfect). At the least I would want someone else to have a chance to fly it and not waste it because I have to de spawn and leave the server to address any technical issues.Not asking for more than two 262s, just a chance to keep the two blue gets under certain circumstances.

Edited May 25, 2021 by =Elite=Foxtrot7

[Barnacles]

Just now, =Elite=Foxtrot7 said:

I agree, and I, like many players strive to make sure everything is right the first time before hitting the spawn button. But we’re all human and mistakes will get made. I just don’t think the penalty of losing the plane in the pool should come with a no damage re spawn. Its not just from forgetting to take a certain loadout or having trouble with the plane startup. My thing is say you have game or internet trouble (which everyone experiences from

time to time as high ping does happen, and the game does crash or bug out as it is not perfect). At the least I would want someone else to have a chance to fly it and not waste it because I have to de spawn and leave the sever to address any technical issues.Not asking for more than two 262s, just a chance to keep the two blue gets under certain circumstances.

Ultimately, this method (not returning planes) has actually enabled the Admin's to actually justify more 262s over the course of the servers with them available.

You are correct, it can be frustrating in the case of honest mistakes, but if your goal is to fly 262s, once you nail the start up procedure, this method brings your dream of 200mph speed advantage and 4x30mm cannon closer to reality. 

 

There is another point in that it's generally not just 2 over the whole map, you get sets of 2 added at regular but random intervals on most maps with them on.

[JimTM]

57 minutes ago, Psyrion said:

Currently it's the third option: Planes get added to the pool in an interval but returning planes do not, for the reason explained by @Barnacles. The idea is to limit the amount of 262s in the air at one time.

 

If I understand you correctly, that sounds like they are using the second option ("Renewable") and not the first ("Return Planes").

 

Note, I added another replenishment option to my original post.

Edited May 25, 2021 by JimTM

[=Elite=BlitzPuppet]

9 hours ago, Barnacles said:

Why not try:

 

Spawn in a 262 and not despawn, but instead successfully start the engines? 

Sometimes things happen.  I failed a startup last night because windows filter keys turned on (Right shift-e) while I was igniting the second engine. Result? Engine fire on #2.

 

End result? No repair truck at the JFB, despawned plane and lost it.

 

2 hours ago, 41Sqn_Riksen said:

 

I hope you are not trying to compare the Tempest to a 262. If you are, shame on you ... LW has other capable fighters, like the K4, which are comparable/better than the Tempest. What the Allies do not have is something comparable to the Me-262.

 

Is the Tempest limited like the 262 on Combat Box? Or is it limited by having an X number of planes that do not get resupplied?

Edited May 25, 2021 by =Elite=BlitzPuppet

[Barnacles]

Just now, =Elite=BlitzPuppet said:

Sometimes things happen.  I failed a startup last night because windows filter keys turned on (Right shift-e) while I was igniting the second engine. Result? Engine fire on #2.

 

End result? No repair truck at the JFB, despawned plane and lost it.

Oof.

Yeah I know, sorry for being facetious. Sh*t sometimes happens. My main point is on balance, especially after you sort out you control gremlins and practice starting it, you'll actually have more opportunity to fly the 262 because there are simply more available now. (Alonzo increased the amount to compensate for the fact that a few more might get lost)

[CSW_606_Temp]

Just idea.

Place Me 262 Airfield very close to front. First ten minutes prohibited takeoff with Me 262. Wulching on.

Allies pilots will be interesting targets. Germans have Me 262, but with risk.

 

 

[Creep]

3 minutes ago, JG606_Temp said:

Just idea.

Place Me 262 Airfield very close to front. First ten minutes prohibited takeoff with Me 262. Wulching on.

Allies pilots will be interesting targets. Germans have Me 262, but with risk.

 

That is an interesting idea. It'd be neat if the base was destructible too, like on Crossing the Rhine with the airlift fields (Bonn and Asbach).

[FTC_Riksen]

2 hours ago, Barnacles said:

Seriously though, the 'problem' with that (adding planes back to the 'pool') is that by the end of the map, you can have 6 or more 262s in the air at once on some maps. 

 

Oh I see. I thought Combat Box used the regular method as explained above by @JimTM ... It makes sense now. Thank you for the explanation.

 

38 minutes ago, =Elite=BlitzPuppet said:

Is the Tempest limited like the 262 on Combat Box? Or is it limited by having an X number of planes that do not get resupplied?

 

No, it is not limited like the 262. It is limited as any other prop plane in game as far as I know. I'm not in disagreement that top tie planes should be limited more, which I actually support, but I dont think you can compare a plane that is over 100km faster than anything else the other side has a fair comparison.

[Otto_bann]

262 is not only the best crusher. Pretty well handelled, it can't be catched up : it's not a good plane for have fun on EACH side.

Less this unfair plane will be on maps, best it will be... IMO (it's a 80% time german pilot who write it).

Edited May 25, 2021 by Otto_bann

[Alonzo]

12 hours ago, =Elite=Foxtrot7 said:

While I can understand some of the restrictions placed on the 262, I found particularly frustrating was the fact that even if you land or respawn with a perfectly intact plane, it does not refill the pool. It’s already limited to only 2 planes, and only when there’s 40+ players in the sever. I had an issue where I (like I’m certain many players often do) spawned in and forgot I wanted to change my plane setup. Didn’t even try the startup procedure. Finished the mission, and boom, zero planes available. 

 

Then I had another instance where I was having trouble getting the engines started (maybe more practice is due). After the 3rd engine spool down and re start the sever kicked me for inactivity. Again nothing damaged. The vehicle again wasted.

 

Compared to all the other limitations, this one just seems like over kill for the 262.

 

The problem is that people offer reasonable suggestions for limitations on those airframes, which can be stated easily in an English sentence, but are really hard to implement inside the game logic. "Allow me to change my loadout or try again if I fail to start an engine" means that in the mission editor I have to check the "return planes to pool" option for that airfield. If I do that, it also means "allow pilots to fly a sortie in the 262, get back to base, finish mission, and respawn again in the same plane." If we do that but also unlock further sets of 262s, then each plane can fly for the entire mission length, constantly being returned to the pool and re-flown. I've had reports of half a dozen 262s in the air towards map end. And if player numbers reduce, we don't want any more jets otherwise you have 15 Allied pilots facing several jets and it's just not fun.

If you can write me a spec for how the jets should behave, which I can implement in game logic, which doesn't result in the possibility of an unfair number of jets flying around then I'd be happy to do it. But I've been building missions for over two years and I can't think of a way to do it without going to external code that parses the game logs and unlocks jets based on their actual performance, and that seems like a lot of effort just to allow an overpowered plane to be available in game.

As to the 'wasted' airframes, I have no sympathy. If you spawn a plane with the wrong loadout or without knowing how to start the engines, you've wasted it. If you try to take off on a short field and have poor technique and hit the trees, you've wasted it. The reason people see a 262 available and mash the "start sortie" button is because they are ridiculously overpowered compared to the prop planes and pilots wanna take an unfair plane into the sky and crush other players.

 

Quote

As of right now, there are only 2 available for blue, it’s only Available when there’s a decent amount of people in the sever, and only when there’s more red than blue.

 

This is incorrect. The 262 unlocks when there is a decent amount of Allied opposition, not when there's more red than blue.

 

 

1 hour ago, JimTM said:

If I understand you correctly, that sounds like they are using the second option ("Renewable") and not the first ("Return Planes").

 

Note, I added another replenishment option to my original post.

 

Me-262 is non-renewable. We use multiple plane sets that open over the course of the mission, thereby unlocking between 6 and 8 total jets depending on the mission. We can also prevent future jet spawns if the Allied opposition numbers drop too low.

 

51 minutes ago, =Elite=BlitzPuppet said:

Is the Tempest limited like the 262 on Combat Box? Or is it limited by having an X number of planes that do not get resupplied?

 

Tempest is like any other plane, it returns to pool if you land it safely and it regenerates a certain number of airframes per hour. The 'initial' and 'per hour' numbers vary for each airframe. Tempest numbers are deliberately much lower than other airframes due to its armament and flight model.

 

 

[=Elite=Foxtrot7]

15 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

 

The problem is that people offer reasonable suggestions for limitations on those airframes, which can be stated easily in an English sentence, but are really hard to implement inside the game logic. "Allow me to change my loadout or try again if I fail to start an engine" means that in the mission editor I have to check the "return planes to pool" option for that airfield. If I do that, it also means "allow pilots to fly a sortie in the 262, get back to base, finish mission, and respawn again in the same plane." If we do that but also unlock further sets of 262s, then each plane can fly for the entire mission length, constantly being returned to the pool and re-flown. I've had reports of half a dozen 262s in the air towards map end. And if player numbers reduce, we don't want any more jets otherwise you have 15 Allied pilots facing several jets and it's just not fun.

If you can write me a spec for how the jets should behave, which I can implement in game logic, which doesn't result in the possibility of an unfair number of jets flying around then I'd be happy to do it. But I've been building missions for over two years and I can't think of a way to do it without going to external code that parses the game logs and unlocks jets based on their actual performance, and that seems like a lot of effort just to allow an overpowered plane to be available in game.

As to the 'wasted' airframes, I have no sympathy. If you spawn a plane with the wrong loadout or without knowing how to start the engines, you've wasted it. If you try to take off on a short field and have poor technique and hit the trees, you've wasted it. The reason people see a 262 available and mash the "start sortie" button is because they are ridiculously overpowered compared to the prop planes and pilots wanna take an unfair plane into the sky and crush other players.

 

 

This is incorrect. The 262 unlocks when there is a decent amount of Allied opposition, not when there's more red than blue.

 

 

 

Me-262 is non-renewable. We use multiple plane sets that open over the course of the mission, thereby unlocking between 6 and 8 total jets depending on the mission. We can also prevent future jet spawns if the Allied opposition numbers drop too low.

 

 

Tempest is like any other plane, it returns to pool if you land it safely and it regenerates a certain number of airframes per hour. The 'initial' and 'per hour' numbers vary for each airframe. Tempest numbers are deliberately much lower than other airframes due to its armament and flight model.

 

 

My question then, is there any sympathy than for players who haven’t “wasted” the airframes of the 262 due to non human errors? Such as if the games bugs and crashes. Not that it happens every single time but this game is not without its flaws and it’s not uncommon that it will freeze up or bug out to where controls don’t work properly or the game is not responding like it should while on the ground. Even with an optimized high end gaming pc, there’s no guarantee the game won’t have issues. In which case leaving the sever and restarting the game is necessary. In that instance it would be nice to not waste an airframe and give someone a chance to fly it. Or in the case of an internet spike with high ping or laggy internet. Even with exceptional internet service it can happen to anyone and again these are generally not the fault of the players.

[=Elite=BlitzPuppet]

5 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

*Snip* Here, *Snip* there

 

I've had reports of half a dozen 262s in the air towards map end. And if player numbers reduce, we don't want any more jets otherwise you have 15 Allied pilots facing several jets and it's just not fun.

As to the 'wasted' airframes, I have no sympathy. If you spawn a plane with the wrong loadout or without knowing how to start the engines, you've wasted it. If you try to take off on a short field and have poor technique and hit the trees, you've wasted it. The reason people see a 262 available and mash the "start sortie" button is because they are ridiculously overpowered compared to the prop planes and pilots wanna take an unfair plane into the sky and crush other players.

Always enjoyed your server, you're definitely a very bright guy and have more patience than I would when it comes to programming/balance/mission building.  That's why I fly and play the game and don't admin.  Your AI SRS implementation is absolutely brilliant and should be licensed/used by 1C for all servers IMHO.

 

Fox and I have been flying together for 10 years now.  I believe I'm speaking for the two of us when I say we LOVE historical missions with historical plane-sets.  Balance be damned.  We have many fond memories of Skies of Valor's servers in IL-2 1946 and late war maps/missions with HE162s, Do335s, ME262s and 163s.  Were there any P80s? F89s? F84s? Nah.  P51s, P38s, P47s, Spitfires, Typhoons, Tempests, hell I think there were even twin-mustangs at some point.

 

I think warthunder had a negative influence on the flight sim community with the idea of everything must be equal to be fun.  Fact of the matter is 10 years ago when SoV was running their server no one complained about unbalanced planes.  Heck, I believe most of the servers ran the HSFX mods to unlock HUNDREDS of different planes for everyone to choose from that would be narrowed down at the mission builder's discretion.  I even think blue STILL lost most of the missions compared to the reds but we all had fun.  That seems lost today as everything has to have a hard counter in order for it to be "fair".

 

Maybe I'm getting old, maybe my "if it was there, it should be available" mindset isn't politically correct enough for today's standards.  Maybe the majority enjoys everything being equitable.  If that's the case then maybe I either need to adapt or find another way to have fun...whether it be here or somewhere else.

 

I've heard the argument used before, especially on this server, that this is extreme late war.  Germany has lost all of it's good pilots to attrition, and accordingly it's just a bunch of noobs flying jets around.  I guess that's modeled then?

 

Truth of the matter is we're all here to have fun, and to be honest Fox, Dutch, and I actually tend to enjoy early war planesets to much more than late war.  It was just fun to sometimes hop on a late war server with fun AI gimmicks. 

 

If we're not having fun we'll just move elsewhere, and right now we're more frustrated than anything.