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Tactical Air War

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Just make the 24h in to 20h and the life pool to be 3/3 and not the current 1/1 +2 overhang at start.

 

Badabin, badabum, problem solved. 

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18 minutes ago, Willy__ said:

 

Maybe make it possible to gain up to 3 lives, one every 24h instead of the maximum 1, so its closer to the initial idea ? :unsure:

 

 

Yeah, but 20 instead of 24 because of you die at the end of your flight and have only 1 life, next day you are out of sync with your potential squad and peers. Shaving off 4h will put you in the range of possibly not left behind but is still long enough to make it sting. 

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Well here we go.  Now if you continue to read this maybe you'll understand a few points that are being stated but not understood.  As CO of JG51Molders I have, with the agreement of the leadership, decided to pull our support of the TAW server.  With doing this we will no longer have our squad required to play in the TAW server during the squad night follies.

 

That being said, here is the points being made and being missed by the defenders of the faith.

 

1) Life counter.  A lot of people have real life time frames they need to PLAY the game inside of.  If one day a person has the ability to play 2 maps (4 hours) and dies 3 times because he or she happened to be going to the wrong area with high enemy numbers in 10 minute flight time, their day on the server is over.  Some say "Too bad you died you lose" and "you need to be a better pilot to survive".  Some of you may know about Cliffs of Dover and the ATAG boys.  This "It's our game and we do what we want" mentality is what has forced the mass migration of players from Cliffs to BoX.  Personally I liked Cliffs and we had our own server there, but because of the ATAG/TeamFusion mentality they black balled anyone with a new idea for a server run scenario.  They would ban you from everything ATAG to stop you from even playing with them.  They would short term ban anyone who tried different servers and reported back that it was fun.  Back to the life counter.  You cannot punish someone for being dreadfully inadequate in a flight sim if they don't fly every single day for multiple hours a day.  But this life counter does exactly that.  This goes to many of the following points.

 

2) I see the PE2 spam problem being reported by the Axis players and being poo pooed away by the VVS players.  Very well there may have been a large building of PE2s during this time of the war and it may be factually correct to place that large of an amount of aircraft where they are placed.  But I think the problem being reported as an incorrect problem.  The problem with so many PE2 aircraft brought to the front is that the AI gunners in a PE2 can kill an attacking aircraft before the attackers is within range to fire themselves.  The AI tail gunners also, against moving targets yet, have the accuracy of Vasily Zaitsev  shooting a standing soldier at 50M.  If gunners were so accurate in real life then why even build fighter planes knowing they were fodder for the gun.  Firing 2 12.7mm Mgs at you is bad enough but when they have that accuracy it become ludicrous to put your life counter on the line to attack a PE2 that is flying in the weeds.  The average amount of ammunition fired from a moving bomber/fighter bomber tail-gunner during this time was 3500 rounds for an actual shoot down.  Here it's less than 100 rounds to kill an enemy fighter attacking a PE2.  You're only going to take multiple hits lose an engine then crash before making it home.  You lose a life and then you lose another doing what should be an interesting attack and kill.  Now you're out of your life counter.

 

3) AI AAA is deadly to a fault.  I don't know how many of you have been shot down by enemy AAA in the game and bailed out above 3K altitude but do it sometime.  Watch what happens.  You have a policy that says "don't shoot people in chutes it's not right thing to do".  Even the AI will shoot at you in your chute and kill you if you're the closest enemy to it.  So the AI will kill you for doing the right thing and bailing out.  This from something that can and will attack you from BVR (Beyond visual range) through clouds, over hills, and in valleys.  I didn't realize that AAA during WWii was radar controlled to the point of tracking an enemy it cannot see.  Then why on this virtual earth does it not fire at friendly aircraft also flying above the clouds near them?  Lose three lives over radar controlled 40MM, 20mm, and MG flak and your out because you lost your life counter.

 

4) Experience of players in the game compared to the deaths.  A point in case  The maps started, at the writing of this post, 89 hours ago.  The top 5 pilots have more than 20 hours each.  That's roughly 7 hours a day and one has enough hours to be in the above 8 hours a day category.  How well do you really think a player who plays 2 to 3 hours a week would fare against someone who doubles or triples that daily?  It's a game, it's not real life, and to give someone the death penalty for not being able to compete with a "Professional flight simmer" (what you are called in the gaming world when you practice more than 4 hours a day) while they are a NooB (someone not a professional) is a stupid concept.  The game had a great engine that did punish players for dying.  It took away the aircraft you died in, gave you a five minute time out, and you had to work to get it back.  You would also lose experience points and for those of us that liked the rank system and used it for motivation within the squad it was a great tool.  Now the NooB can be assured when they die they not only get a 5 minute timeout, lose experience rank, and sit a 5 minute timeout but now they are conceptually sent to the closet for not being the top dog.  they lost their life counter.

 

5) The weather.  Yeah the weather being overcast and rainy and snowy all the time (even though it is factually correct) is a bit much.  The ops ran on days such as those described in the thread are of course too much for the gamer who wants to go out find a target from altitude and play with it.  One guy is under the cloud one guy is over and no one gets killed.  Everyone knows the Axis are going to be above the clouds because that is where their air-frames are factually superior and the VVS is under the clouds as their air-frames perform better at slow speed fighting.  Since all the targets are below the clouds you can see how quickly a map gets rolled.  At this pace we'll be done with this campaign by Memorial Day.  Since you won't come up and die and I won't go down and die then you win and the life counter just goes on banning other people who are not so good.

 

6) The defensive posturing that is being brought against those that would have their concerns heard is very much like the shout down mentality of mob rules.  We have the ball, we control the mob, mob go kill anyone with a different point of view.  That's the frustration with all of this nonsense and, for that, is why we JG51Molders have withdrawn our support.  We don't want you to do anything you don't want to do.  However we do want the community that, defends tooth and nail, every single question is being shouted down and pushed aside to understand this is how other sims have lost the respect of the player base.  In Cliffs of Dover today ATAG barely even runs a single full server (they used to have 2 at near capacity).  Many of the other server builders have moved on from Cliffs to DCS and BoX.  This will most likely be my last flight sim as I am getting too old to continue building new machines, set aside time, and enjoy the life I've built for myself.

 

Now if you've made it through this post I hope you have a better understanding of some of the core issues being brought about.  I hope you'll hear the other side of the argument and understand they have concerns that really need to be addressed even if they didn't frame the original statement correctly.  Don't jump on someones post because you didn't understand it and are assuming they are talking about one thing when it's really about another.  Communicate or watch the concept go by the wayside.

 

>S<

JG51_Ogg

CO JG51Molders

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Does the U2VS provide 4% resupply same as the Pe-2?

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I can't believe I'm weighing into an internet forum debate here but here goes...

 

I believe the main reason for the three death rule was because of 'suicide jockey' pilots not caring about their stats or if they get killed. I'm a  ground attack guy, and it's frustrating and unrealistic to have guys who migrate over from the bouncy castle (Wings of Liberty) because they see the TAW server is populated, and then fly a 109 up my ass with their eyes shut and finger on the trigger to ram me. Pretty sure they wouldn't do that in real life. I lose a pilot, and they just say "Meh, that was fun" and go back to Call of Duty or Xhamster or whatever.

 

You have to plan very carefully to succeed in TAW and develop tactics that work. Yes, it's VERY frustrating sometimes, particularly when you are playing with new guys. My suggestion would be to train on another server with them and then fly TAW when you think you are ready. Sometimes I spend 15 minutes just staring at the map trying to figure out not only what targets need hitting, but how to find it without getting bounced, and how to attack it without getting killed. It can be done. If you just take off in your Stuka or IL2 and head straight for the front lines to a tank column you'll probably get killed. Just like you would in real life.

 

If you fly fighters and you are in inferior aircraft or outnumbered then fly some defensive patrols over friendly objectives to pounce on bombers. Then, even if you do get shot down you won't get captured. There's always something that needs doing - try flying a transport mission occasionally. 

 

Here are a few tips for ground attackers. (I'm not being condescending here, I genuinely want to see more people play this server because it's the best and they are always trying to improve it)

 

Try not to fly alone and get on comms.

Never loiter over a target, make one pass and haul ass.

Always dive at high speed when attacking a ground target and stay low coming off.

Try to attack towards friendly lines so you are going fast and low towards home base.

On ingress, navigate to an easy to find feature near the target (an initial point or IP) to avoid getting lost and swanning around in enemy territory.

If you level bomb, fly as high as you can and take a fighter or two with you.

 

Out.

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5 minutes ago, JG51_Ogg said:

Well here we go.  Now if you continue to read this maybe you'll understand a few points that are being stated but not understood.  As CO of JG51Molders I have, with the agreement of the leadership, decided to pull our support of the TAW server.  With doing this we will no longer have our squad required to play in the TAW server during the squad night follies.

 

That being said, here is the points being made and being missed by the defenders of the faith.

 

1) Life counter.  A lot of people have real life time frames they need to PLAY the game inside of.  If one day a person has the ability to play 2 maps (4 hours) and dies 3 times because he or she happened to be going to the wrong area with high enemy numbers in 10 minute flight time, their day on the server is over.  Some say "Too bad you died you lose" and "you need to be a better pilot to survive".  Some of you may know about Cliffs of Dover and the ATAG boys.  This "It's our game and we do what we want" mentality is what has forced the mass migration of players from Cliffs to BoX.  Personally I liked Cliffs and we had our own server there, but because of the ATAG/TeamFusion mentality they black balled anyone with a new idea for a server run scenario.  They would ban you from everything ATAG to stop you from even playing with them.  They would short term ban anyone who tried different servers and reported back that it was fun.  Back to the life counter.  You cannot punish someone for being dreadfully inadequate in a flight sim if they don't fly every single day for multiple hours a day.  But this life counter does exactly that.  This goes to many of the following points.

 

2) I see the PE2 spam problem being reported by the Axis players and being poo pooed away by the VVS players.  Very well there may have been a large building of PE2s during this time of the war and it may be factually correct to place that large of an amount of aircraft where they are placed.  But I think the problem being reported as an incorrect problem.  The problem with so many PE2 aircraft brought to the front is that the AI gunners in a PE2 can kill an attacking aircraft before the attackers is within range to fire themselves.  The AI tail gunners also, against moving targets yet, have the accuracy of Vasily Zaitsev  shooting a standing soldier at 50M.  If gunners were so accurate in real life then why even build fighter planes knowing they were fodder for the gun.  Firing 2 12.7mm Mgs at you is bad enough but when they have that accuracy it become ludicrous to put your life counter on the line to attack a PE2 that is flying in the weeds.  The average amount of ammunition fired from a moving bomber/fighter bomber tail-gunner during this time was 3500 rounds for an actual shoot down.  Here it's less than 100 rounds to kill an enemy fighter attacking a PE2.  You're only going to take multiple hits lose an engine then crash before making it home.  You lose a life and then you lose another doing what should be an interesting attack and kill.  Now you're out of your life counter.

 

3) AI AAA is deadly to a fault.  I don't know how many of you have been shot down by enemy AAA in the game and bailed out above 3K altitude but do it sometime.  Watch what happens.  You have a policy that says "don't shoot people in chutes it's not right thing to do".  Even the AI will shoot at you in your chute and kill you if you're the closest enemy to it.  So the AI will kill you for doing the right thing and bailing out.  This from something that can and will attack you from BVR (Beyond visual range) through clouds, over hills, and in valleys.  I didn't realize that AAA during WWii was radar controlled to the point of tracking an enemy it cannot see.  Then why on this virtual earth does it not fire at friendly aircraft also flying above the clouds near them?  Lose three lives over radar controlled 40MM, 20mm, and MG flak and your out because you lost your life counter.

 

4) Experience of players in the game compared to the deaths.  A point in case  The maps started, at the writing of this post, 89 hours ago.  The top 5 pilots have more than 20 hours each.  That's roughly 7 hours a day and one has enough hours to be in the above 8 hours a day category.  How well do you really think a player who plays 2 to 3 hours a week would fare against someone who doubles or triples that daily?  It's a game, it's not real life, and to give someone the death penalty for not being able to compete with a "Professional flight simmer" (what you are called in the gaming world when you practice more than 4 hours a day) while they are a NooB (someone not a professional) is a stupid concept.  The game had a great engine that did punish players for dying.  It took away the aircraft you died in, gave you a five minute time out, and you had to work to get it back.  You would also lose experience points and for those of us that liked the rank system and used it for motivation within the squad it was a great tool.  Now the NooB can be assured when they die they not only get a 5 minute timeout, lose experience rank, and sit a 5 minute timeout but now they are conceptually sent to the closet for not being the top dog.  they lost their life counter.

 

5) The weather.  Yeah the weather being overcast and rainy and snowy all the time (even though it is factually correct) is a bit much.  The ops ran on days such as those described in the thread are of course too much for the gamer who wants to go out find a target from altitude and play with it.  One guy is under the cloud one guy is over and no one gets killed.  Everyone knows the Axis are going to be above the clouds because that is where their air-frames are factually superior and the VVS is under the clouds as their air-frames perform better at slow speed fighting.  Since all the targets are below the clouds you can see how quickly a map gets rolled.  At this pace we'll be done with this campaign by Memorial Day.  Since you won't come up and die and I won't go down and die then you win and the life counter just goes on banning other people who are not so good.

 

6) The defensive posturing that is being brought against those that would have their concerns heard is very much like the shout down mentality of mob rules.  We have the ball, we control the mob, mob go kill anyone with a different point of view.  That's the frustration with all of this nonsense and, for that, is why we JG51Molders have withdrawn our support.  We don't want you to do anything you don't want to do.  However we do want the community that, defends tooth and nail, every single question is being shouted down and pushed aside to understand this is how other sims have lost the respect of the player base.  In Cliffs of Dover today ATAG barely even runs a single full server (they used to have 2 at near capacity).  Many of the other server builders have moved on from Cliffs to DCS and BoX.  This will most likely be my last flight sim as I am getting too old to continue building new machines, set aside time, and enjoy the life I've built for myself.

 

Now if you've made it through this post I hope you have a better understanding of some of the core issues being brought about.  I hope you'll hear the other side of the argument and understand they have concerns that really need to be addressed even if they didn't frame the original statement correctly.  Don't jump on someones post because you didn't understand it and are assuming they are talking about one thing when it's really about another.  Communicate or watch the concept go by the wayside.

 

>S<

JG51_Ogg

CO JG51Molders

 

1) I agree fully.

 

2) Pe-2 isn't the only gunner that is a sniper.  Pretty much any plane with defensive/turret guns is.  It's not the power of the guns either.  A 110, 111, Stuka or 88 has the same ability to snipe - if you're within the turret's traverse range. The AI for all gunners could use tweaking from the devs.  That said ALOT of hurt feelings about being sniped are purely bad approach and the expectation of a granted victory.

 

3) Yes, Flak did have nearly 40,000 feet range (10+Km) and was, at least in long-controlled territory or areas where the equipment could be transported and set up quickly, radar controlled.  While there was some ability to discern radar signatures of different planes, friendly fire still was (and should be, in game) a thing.  Frontline AAA should be not as often radar controlled (but sometimes) and should rely on forward spotters + the fact that larger raids could be heard incoming 30-45+ minutes before any visual was had. Overcast/heavy weather should inhibit radar effectiveness as well.  

 

4) Once again, I agree

 

5)  Personally, I love instrument only flying in blind weather. But...  I recognize that "study sim" aspects of the game aren't exactly most people's cup of tea.  When you find that your 2 hour window to fly for the night and the weather is too adverse to fly the server you want to be a part of, it sucks.   That said,  previous TAWs had heavy weather with blind conditions in the clouds at 2km to 3km then clear skies above.  Snow was never a full-on whited-out blizzard.  I will say that if Axis pilots can't put up a good fight with all the advantages their planes give them with the ceiling at 2km, that's too bad.  Even non-live it, eat-it, sleep it, pilots should still have enough leeway to work with that.  I agree  600m overcast is a bit much. However, when the Axis planes are on the deck in numbers it's far from a winning situation for this early-war VVS set. 

 

6) I only had very limited time in CloD MP, so I can't offer POV on that.  I do agree that being part of a niche group and being good at what one does, doesn't make it ok to put on the "I'm elite. This is only meant for elites. Piss off.", mentality towards others who don't consume so much of the product to get as constipated as they. 

 

~S~

2 minutes ago, Darbzy said:

I can't believe I'm weighing into an internet forum debate here but here goes...

 

I believe the main reason for the three death rule was because of 'suicide jockey' pilots not caring about their stats or if they get killed. I'm a  ground attack guy, and it's frustrating and unrealistic to have guys who migrate over from the bouncy castle (Wings of Liberty) because they see the TAW server is populated, and then fly a 109 up my ass with their eyes shut and finger on the trigger to ram me. Pretty sure they wouldn't do that in real life. I lose a pilot, and they just say "Meh, that was fun" and go back to Call of Duty or Xhamster or whatever.

 

You have to plan very carefully to succeed in TAW and develop tactics that work. Yes, it's VERY frustrating sometimes, particularly when you are playing with new guys. My suggestion would be to train on another server with them and then fly TAW when you think you are ready. Sometimes I spend 15 minutes just staring at the map trying to figure out not only what targets need hitting, but how to find it without getting bounced, and how to attack it without getting killed. It can be done. If you just take off in your Stuka or IL2 and head straight for the front lines to a tank column you'll probably get killed. Just like you would in real life.

 

If you fly fighters and you are in inferior aircraft or outnumbered then fly some defensive patrols over friendly objectives to pounce on bombers. Then, even if you do get shot down you won't get captured. There's always something that needs doing - try flying a transport mission occasionally. 

 

Here are a few tips for ground attackers. (I'm not being condescending here, I genuinely want to see more people play this server because it's the best and they are always trying to improve it)

 

Try not to fly alone and get on comms.

Never loiter over a target, make one pass and haul ass.

Always dive at high speed when attacking a ground target and stay low coming off.

Try to attack towards friendly lines so you are going fast and low towards home base.

On ingress, navigate to an easy to find feature near the target (an initial point or IP) to avoid getting lost and swanning around in enemy territory.

If you level bomb, fly as high as you can and take a fighter or two with you.

 

Out.

 

Bouncy Castle.....  I knew I should have copyrighted that. 😋

 

Yes, a couple fighters can be enough to confuse the flak tracking if they S-turn around the bomber while it is on a high-alt level run.

 

And... I will bend on my "all should play" stance to say that there should be (and are) some server that require at least intermediate level of skill and pre-mission prep to play.  It could be argued that 'expert only' servers should be a thing too, but honestly, I don't think that TAW should go that far unless it can be a sanctioned (by 1c/777) e-sport for-prizes server.  It appears there just isn't enough worldwide interest for that kind of thing.

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12 minutes ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

 

 

Bouncy Castle.....  I knew I should have copyrighted that. 😋

 

 

 

Best description ever lol

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Posted (edited)

Ah, the life counter, the straw that broke the camels back. 

 

This one feature alone will be very divisive subject  :)

Edited by CptSiddy
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The team stackers are enraged.... 🤣

 

Looks like I'll be registering for this TAW!!!! It's been a few campaigns. I look forward to signing up. Damn..... I might even register my blue.

On 5/12/2019 at 4:19 PM, JG51_Beazil said:

Right on.  I'm sorry you feel bullied.  You should see a counselor about your hurt feelings.  And yes, I will fly somewhere else, thanks for your permission and endorsement.  Enjoy your campaign.

I guess I just don't understand why the people running the server enjoy these penalties, lock outs and forced side flying.  Apparently, you do.  Nothing wrong with that.  I'm just not that person.  I'm sure you understand.

I'm done wasting my time here.

PS, Ogg and I are different people responding to different people in this topic.  But hey don't let that stop you from stringing together whatever you like from our posts.  Im sure you are enjoying working yourself up into a rightous rebuttal right now.  I can hardly wait.

 

 

 

 

There where more guys who got sick of the side stack and will return if a fair fight solution has been found. If we lose 8 guys but 15 return..... Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

This rage from the stackers has me looking forward to this campaign.

 

On 5/11/2019 at 7:34 PM, JG7_X-Man said:

So, to send a mission of 12 USAAF P-51Ds into combat would be roughly cost: ($550,000 USD)*12 = $6.6+ Million USD (...this is per mission)! Yeah - not cheap!

 

 

You are projecting modern constraints onto total war in order to fit a poor argument. Very wordy explanations to justify removal of something you don't like. It's not even a large %.

 

I will counter your poor $$$ argument with the 8th Air Force just because I enjoy the banter.....

Quantity has a quality all on it's own was the Soviet playbook to drive my point home further.

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16 minutes ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

There where more guys who got sick of the side stack and will return if a fair fight solution has been found. If we lose 8 guys but 15 return..... Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

 

 

 

Can you substantiate your numbers?

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, CptSiddy said:

 

Can you substantiate your numbers?

 

Nope, pure BS. I know myself and quite a few others bailed out. I also know that I'm going to be telling my buddies that TAW might not be a waste of time anymore.

 

Admin also took our fairness gripes seriously enough to piss of quite a few players.

On 5/14/2019 at 12:00 PM, =AVG77=REDMAN said:

i just got banned for taking too long to piss between maps. now i can't get back in at all.

 

Time for the finger treatment!!!

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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Posted (edited)

This is my first TAW, and I'm wondering how this could work before the 3 lifes limit ...

What avoided "suicide" pilots from entering and making anything ?

 

My first day was really a shock, I died 4 times and game over.

That gave me 24h to think about my strategies, and why they didn't work on this server.

Since, I didn't die again.

 

I like this 3 lifes system, I think it's what difereciates the most this server from the others.

Sometimes dying is a question of bad luck, but dying 3 times, I think is a problem of Strategy

 

Edited by =SFF=_cercataa
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37 minutes ago, =SFF=_cercataa said:

This is my first TAW, and I'm wondering how this could work before the 3 lifes limit ...

What avoided "suicide" pilots from entering and making anything ?

 

You should do 3 combat missions to get a plane for your suicide anything action. For most of the players it is enough. I am positive that the amount of loss for both teams is the same as it was before.

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3 hours ago, StG77_HvB said:

Does the U2VS provide 4% resupply same as the Pe-2?

Yes.

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6 hours ago, JG51_Ogg said:

Well here we go.  Now if you continue to read this maybe you'll understand a few points that are being stated but not understood.  As CO of JG51Molders I have, with the agreement of the leadership, decided to pull our support of the TAW server.  With doing this we will no longer have our squad required to play in the TAW server during the squad night follies.

 

That being said, here is the points being made and being missed by the defenders of the faith.

 

1) Life counter.  A lot of people have real life time frames they need to PLAY the game inside of.  If one day a person has the ability to play 2 maps (4 hours) and dies 3 times because he or she happened to be going to the wrong area with high enemy numbers in 10 minute flight time, their day on the server is over.  Some say "Too bad you died you lose" and "you need to be a better pilot to survive".  Some of you may know about Cliffs of Dover and the ATAG boys.  This "It's our game and we do what we want" mentality is what has forced the mass migration of players from Cliffs to BoX.  Personally I liked Cliffs and we had our own server there, but because of the ATAG/TeamFusion mentality they black balled anyone with a new idea for a server run scenario.  They would ban you from everything ATAG to stop you from even playing with them.  They would short term ban anyone who tried different servers and reported back that it was fun.  Back to the life counter.  You cannot punish someone for being dreadfully inadequate in a flight sim if they don't fly every single day for multiple hours a day.  But this life counter does exactly that.  This goes to many of the following points.

 

2) I see the PE2 spam problem being reported by the Axis players and being poo pooed away by the VVS players.  Very well there may have been a large building of PE2s during this time of the war and it may be factually correct to place that large of an amount of aircraft where they are placed.  But I think the problem being reported as an incorrect problem.  The problem with so many PE2 aircraft brought to the front is that the AI gunners in a PE2 can kill an attacking aircraft before the attackers is within range to fire themselves.  The AI tail gunners also, against moving targets yet, have the accuracy of Vasily Zaitsev  shooting a standing soldier at 50M.  If gunners were so accurate in real life then why even build fighter planes knowing they were fodder for the gun.  Firing 2 12.7mm Mgs at you is bad enough but when they have that accuracy it become ludicrous to put your life counter on the line to attack a PE2 that is flying in the weeds.  The average amount of ammunition fired from a moving bomber/fighter bomber tail-gunner during this time was 3500 rounds for an actual shoot down.  Here it's less than 100 rounds to kill an enemy fighter attacking a PE2.  You're only going to take multiple hits lose an engine then crash before making it home.  You lose a life and then you lose another doing what should be an interesting attack and kill.  Now you're out of your life counter.

 

3) AI AAA is deadly to a fault.  I don't know how many of you have been shot down by enemy AAA in the game and bailed out above 3K altitude but do it sometime.  Watch what happens.  You have a policy that says "don't shoot people in chutes it's not right thing to do".  Even the AI will shoot at you in your chute and kill you if you're the closest enemy to it.  So the AI will kill you for doing the right thing and bailing out.  This from something that can and will attack you from BVR (Beyond visual range) through clouds, over hills, and in valleys.  I didn't realize that AAA during WWii was radar controlled to the point of tracking an enemy it cannot see.  Then why on this virtual earth does it not fire at friendly aircraft also flying above the clouds near them?  Lose three lives over radar controlled 40MM, 20mm, and MG flak and your out because you lost your life counter.

 

4) Experience of players in the game compared to the deaths.  A point in case  The maps started, at the writing of this post, 89 hours ago.  The top 5 pilots have more than 20 hours each.  That's roughly 7 hours a day and one has enough hours to be in the above 8 hours a day category.  How well do you really think a player who plays 2 to 3 hours a week would fare against someone who doubles or triples that daily?  It's a game, it's not real life, and to give someone the death penalty for not being able to compete with a "Professional flight simmer" (what you are called in the gaming world when you practice more than 4 hours a day) while they are a NooB (someone not a professional) is a stupid concept.  The game had a great engine that did punish players for dying.  It took away the aircraft you died in, gave you a five minute time out, and you had to work to get it back.  You would also lose experience points and for those of us that liked the rank system and used it for motivation within the squad it was a great tool.  Now the NooB can be assured when they die they not only get a 5 minute timeout, lose experience rank, and sit a 5 minute timeout but now they are conceptually sent to the closet for not being the top dog.  they lost their life counter.

 

5) The weather.  Yeah the weather being overcast and rainy and snowy all the time (even though it is factually correct) is a bit much.  The ops ran on days such as those described in the thread are of course too much for the gamer who wants to go out find a target from altitude and play with it.  One guy is under the cloud one guy is over and no one gets killed.  Everyone knows the Axis are going to be above the clouds because that is where their air-frames are factually superior and the VVS is under the clouds as their air-frames perform better at slow speed fighting.  Since all the targets are below the clouds you can see how quickly a map gets rolled.  At this pace we'll be done with this campaign by Memorial Day.  Since you won't come up and die and I won't go down and die then you win and the life counter just goes on banning other people who are not so good.

 

6) The defensive posturing that is being brought against those that would have their concerns heard is very much like the shout down mentality of mob rules.  We have the ball, we control the mob, mob go kill anyone with a different point of view.  That's the frustration with all of this nonsense and, for that, is why we JG51Molders have withdrawn our support.  We don't want you to do anything you don't want to do.  However we do want the community that, defends tooth and nail, every single question is being shouted down and pushed aside to understand this is how other sims have lost the respect of the player base.  In Cliffs of Dover today ATAG barely even runs a single full server (they used to have 2 at near capacity).  Many of the other server builders have moved on from Cliffs to DCS and BoX.  This will most likely be my last flight sim as I am getting too old to continue building new machines, set aside time, and enjoy the life I've built for myself.

 

Now if you've made it through this post I hope you have a better understanding of some of the core issues being brought about.  I hope you'll hear the other side of the argument and understand they have concerns that really need to be addressed even if they didn't frame the original statement correctly.  Don't jump on someones post because you didn't understand it and are assuming they are talking about one thing when it's really about another.  Communicate or watch the concept go by the wayside.

 

>S<

JG51_Ogg

CO JG51Molders

I don’t think I can agree with you. I am not a very good pilot, yet I have died only once this campaign (from a pe2 gunner sniping me while flying 600kph at a 60 degree intersect, so yes, gunners are a bit too strong). And i was rarely flying above 3km, usually right in the fight. 

 

The live system forces you to fly smart & I like that. Almost every time you get shot you can either bail or ditch & not lose a live. It punishes suicide attacks & that is good. 

 

After i was sniper in a 111 at 5km from flak I too thought it was too strong, but after flying some more I don’t think it is more dangerous than before. I have done plenty of bomb runs in a 110 against defenses & bridges and wasn’t hit by flak once. 

 

The 110 is also the solution against pe2s. I never flew it much in past campaigns but now it has become my favorite plane for the first few maps.  You can bomb something & then protect friendly objectives against pe2s. Your armor mostly protects your pilot & the centerline 20mm with unlimited ammo allow you to shoot from far away. I lose an engine from time to time but luckily the 110 can fly home with 1 engine perfectly fine. 

 

The only plane that has a hard time dealing with pe2s are 109 e7 because of their low effective firing range. I’m pretty sure an i16 attacking a 111 or 88 feels the same way...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Finnsky said:

I don’t think I can agree with you. I am not a very good pilot, yet I have died only once this campaign (from a pe2 gunner sniping me while flying 600kph at a 60 degree intersect, so yes, gunners are a bit too strong). And i was rarely flying above 3km, usually right in the fight. 

 

The live system forces you to fly smart & I like that. Almost every time you get shot you can either bail or ditch & not lose a live. It punishes suicide attacks & that is good. 

 

The only plane that has a hard time dealing with pe2s are 109 e7 because of their low effective firing range. I’m pretty sure an i16 attacking a 111 or 88 feels the same way...

 

I think most people would agree that gunners need work, and I do too, but you might want to consider that high speed and high angle of approach might reduce the chance of being hit but the only way to truly avoid the possibility is to be completely outside the gunner's traverse range.  You might have come in fast and steep but, if you were on a predictable line, the gunner just had to spray and pray out in front of you, letting you fly through the bullet stream.   -  Not an argument.  Just some advice/perspective to consider.   o7

 

I've been thinking about the lives system.  I still don't like it but, it might ease the trouble a bit if the rule was "3 lives per map and, if 0 remaining, +1 life per round rebuildable to 3."  You could potentially have a bad round then only be banned for 2 hours and risk flying again or wait 3 rounds (6 hours) to have another 3 lives to chance.   Add to that the +1 base plane set at the beginning of the map should be the only fighter(s)/bomber(s)/attacker(s) you get for free - instead of a free fighter, bomber or attacker every round that you have 0.  Spend your planes and only get +1 transport for the next round - rebuild your plane set from there. Figure out a fair penalty for transport gun-shippers going over into enemy territory and purposely engaging in combat.

 

I think that the biggest problem with the 109 e7 is that you have to get it going control-stiffeningly fast in order to catch a Pe-2 that's running at best speed.  This usually also means that you have to be lingering right on the 6 of the Pe-2 giving the gunner what in baseball terms is called a "meatball" - AKA an easy pitch to hit.

The I-16 has similar issues with the 111s and 88s but as it turns out the all pea-shooter configuration is the way to go.  No loss of speed and a 2 second burst across the fuel tank or the underside of an engine with Armor Piercing Incendiary (API) rounds has a very high chance of being a fire starter.  

The real issue is getting the space and opportunity, away from fighter cover, to stalk the prey and calculate the best time to attack.  Most of the time that's just not something that's on the table.      

Edited by =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ
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2 hours ago, Finnsky said:

 

 

The 110 is also the solution against pe2s.

 

Peshkas 7.7mm back gunner saw off my 110's wing, i beg to differ. 

 

The back gunner lotto is the reason why peshka is number 1 survivability soviet workhorse. 

 

I leave anything with back gunner alone now as a general rule unless it is mission critical. (IE, if it has dropped bombs, let it go, dont bother)

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On 5/15/2019 at 9:23 AM, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

Saw 1 from the WW2 era that had the best quote:   "It's like showering with your rain gear on!".  

There's not even away to punch some bricks and get a 1up, though, come to think of it, 24 hour bans might make you want to punch some bricks.... 

I prefer pillows.

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24 minutes ago, CptSiddy said:

I leave anything with back gunner alone now as a general rule unless it is mission critical. (IE, if it has dropped bombs, let it go, dont bother)

 

I wonder if that's what happened IRL ...

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43 minutes ago, =SFF=_cercataa said:

 

I wonder if that's what happened IRL ...

 

Did German fighters did that to B17'? no, with one exception.

 

They engaged them in and out bound way.

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I was just about to play with my friend on the server and i went to jump in the gunner position and then I was kicked from the server.

 

Does anyone know why?

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@CptSiddy  Nice catch last night.   I saw your lights go on behind me and I thought you had broken off and it was my wingman!   😂

MiGs are always faster on the deck than I give them credit for. 

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1 hour ago, BRS_Gaming said:

I was just about to play with my friend on the server and i went to jump in the gunner position and then I was kicked from the server.

 

Does anyone know why?

You  can't start your sortie as a gunner.

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54 minutes ago, [JG52t]whitecrow said:

@CptSiddy  Nice catch last night.   I saw your lights go on behind me and I thought you had broken off and it was my wingman!   😂

MiGs are always faster on the deck than I give them credit for. 

 

 

 

No tracer belts, best belts :^) 

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1 hour ago, =AVG77=REDMAN said:

I thought kill stealing was against the rules, what a joke.

 

What may seem like "stealing" a kill to you, could actually be someone trying to help you. :friends:

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Would TAW admin(s) consider a second Flying Circus campaign server when it is more complete? If the numbers were there of course. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

FYI is the algorithm for balance not working anymore?

 

 

Best regards!

 

 A few pages back Kathon mentioned the balancing logic was relaxed (at that time I think it was one side no more than 40% more than the other), due to all of the connection/delay problems (and probably the complaints).  It seems the percentage was increased to something closer to 100% (I.e no more than double the size of the other team).

Edited by AKA_Relent

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SCG_Fenris_Wolf wrote: FYI is the algorithm for balance not working anymore?

 

It could happen that some squad or groups left the server about the same time. There is no rule to stay and keep equal numbers...

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On 5/15/2019 at 4:32 AM, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

"Bf" and "Me" designations are interchangeable based on what documents were created about them during the war.  One factory office would refer to it as Bf, another war department office would refer to the same planes as Me.  Same difference depending on who wrote the documents.

 

As for the110 pilot who you say performed an "Ace in a flight" in real combat....   I'd attribute that more to fine airmanship much more than the plane (except for ammo capacity). It is a fact that the Bf/Me 110 was pulled from the BoB due to poor performance and the realization that it couldn't fulfill it's originally intended purpose as a "heavy fighter".  The reason why it shows up on the Eastern Front in newer models is due to the fact that it was reassigned as a fast ground attacker and tank destroyer.

 

I will reply briefly about them to not interfere with the original topic ( we can have a bit of chit chatting about it when we will meet online and we a bit of free time ).

 

1- Wrong\Not correct

 

2- Again wrong \Not correct

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5 hours ago, SKG210_Werner_Molders said:

I will reply briefly about them to not interfere with the original topic.

 

1- Wrong\Not correct

 

2- Again wrong \Not correct

 

Well since you took the time to post, the space of one post could have been your "corrections" but, thanks for the smackdown with no details.  

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Two players have returned with the new balance attempt.

 

We registered BLUE!!! We've not had a chance to guilt free sign up blue for at least 5 campaigns.

 

So far so good. Thanks fellas.

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15 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

What may seem like "stealing" a kill to you, could actually be someone trying to help you. :friends:

That's the same excuse they all use,what BS. When someone jumps in between me and the guy i'm shooting at is not help.Most of the time it forces you to break off or better yet shoot the asshole and then you get penalized for shooting a friendly.They know exactly what they're doing and why they're doing it. In the future I'm going to continue shooting and if they get hit or killed because of it I'll take the penalty but i'm taking them with me.   

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When =AVG77= was founded by ShadowHawk and myself - that's correct we are the 2 AVG77 O.G.'s - it was established (the posts are buried in this thread) that, for the purposes of TAW, unless it's not blatant shoulder shooting or cutting off the leader plane by popping into his gunsight right when he could take the shot, then getting 1 more enemy plane off the map was more important than personal stats.   (Sorry for the long-winded sentence.)  Kill securing for the win of the entire team - our squad or not, on comms or not - is the AVG77 TAW policy.  If we want to score and stat pad on other servers, c'est la vie.

 

Granted, ShadowHawk is still the team leader, and I'm more suited and totally comfortable with, a role of team mascot, but you might want to discuss it with him (or us) about whether or not that TAW policy still stands.    

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It's in the rules that only certain people have to follow. I was making a point. more times than not they get you killed because after you break off you become a sitting duck for an enemy fighter looking for just that. these helpful pilots don't keep your 6 clear they wait until you get a plane damaged and leaking and come in to help by jumping in front of you and save the day.  

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Yes, it is a self-imposed squad policy that we avoid shoulder shooting and try to cover the lead plane's 6 instead of getting into the "mine! mine! mine!" mentality of seagulls fighting for a french fry.  I know it's frustrating when we see others do that crap to us and I don't blame you for venting about it.  But, remember that even making some efforts to follow real concepts of airmanship is what has drawn fine and very skilled pilots - such as yourself - to AVG77.  Just remind yourself that these guys are unable to adapt away from "bouncy castle" server tactics, or never had good examples to learn from, or are converts from arena/arcade air combat games and never really learned any better.  

It's a bit harder to be mad at them when you have every place to feel damn good about yourself!   :salute:

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I was doing just that---venting--- especially when you only get 3 lives per map. It sucks the fun out of the experience when you have to watch your side closer then the enemy. I'm done venting S!    

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That said, staying up higher above a fight, waiting for an enemy that's being chased to go vertical into a hang stall at your altitude, blasting him then jogging away while the conga line of  pursuers struggle to get their planes righted, does not count as shoulder shooting or cutting in and shot-blocking.  (Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge) 😁

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I want to be perfectly clear i was never talking about anybody in our squad. We (myself included) follow the rules to the letter which makes it that more frustrating when you see other squads total disregard for them. 

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