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Reverb - new offering from HP

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8 hours ago, cranium1 said:

I actually think 60 Hz is a good setting. I would take 60 stable frames on a native 60Hz display (WMR headsets apparently have variable refresh rates at 60 or 90 Hz) over 45 frames which re-project to 90 any day of the week. There is no way even a 2080TI can push 90 frames on a Reverb with its 9.3 million pixels + overhead anyway (In games like DCS or IL2). 

 

Only thing I'd do differently is probably reduce the SS. 

 

...except that if you look at Chili's spreadsheet, there absolutely *is* evidence to suggest that a 2080ti can push the required pixels for the Reverb at 90 fps, just not with 1.5 supersample. The problem is that this tester has included only their subjective impressions rather than hard numbers. This is what makes me (sadly) suspicious of anything else this person has said, including comments about lack of mura, tracking being ok, etc etc etc. I was initially excited that this person has owned a large set of HMDs, but their use of 60 fps mode just puts me right off.

 

Chili has made an excellent argument that getting the absolute most pixels in an HMD is the best strategy, because you can always reduce supersample (or even subsample if you need to) because those extra pixels are useful even if GPU tech needs to catch up. I agree that's the best strategy *if* all the other stuff about the headset lines up -- tracking, lenses, screen quality, FOV, etc etc.

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1 hour ago, Alonzo_LW said:


...except that if you look at Chili's spreadsheet, there absolutely *is* evidence to suggest that a 2080ti can push the required pixels for the Reverb at 90 fps,

 

Where exactly? I sure would like to see this "evidence". That's 9.3 million pixels and probably closer to 11 million after accounting for the in-built SS to counter edge distortion. 

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, cranium1 said:

Hmm.... that actually proves your claim was incorrect. Looks like you misread the data. Average FPS for Reverb equivalent resolutions is way below 90. 

 

I'm looking at the SS per device tab, row 8, and the regular Rift at 11 million pixels is labeled "handled by the 2080ti". Forum regular dburne gets good performance from his card, and Chili concurs that should be expected.

 

If you also compare the "SS tests" benchmark tab, row 4, you can see that a 2080ti powering a Vive at 2.0 supersample averaging 87 FPS. Vive with 2.0 supersample is 10.1 million pixels.

 

If you could link the rows you're talking about, rather than simply "trying to prove someone wrong on the internet" that would be helpful.

Edited by Alonzo_LW
Formatting.

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3 minutes ago, Alonzo_LW said:

If you could link the rows you're talking about, rather than simply "trying to prove someone wrong on the internet" that would be helpful.

 

A bit hypocritical. Maybe you should have taken your own advice when you posted that spreadsheet. Don't you think?

 

4 minutes ago, Alonzo_LW said:

 

I'm looking at the SS per device tab, row 8, and the regular Rift at 11 million pixels is labeled "handled by the 2080ti". Forum regular dburne gets good performance from his card, and Chili concurs that should be expected.

 

So "handled by the 2080ti" means 90 FPS stable? Just WOW! That's quite rich someone who claims to be so fixated on "hard numbers". Just have a look at the graph in that tab and its accompanying data. Its for a Pimax 5K which is 7.3 million pixels and at 100% SS it has average FPS of less than 45. 

 

10 minutes ago, Alonzo_LW said:

 

If you also compare the "SS tests" benchmark tab, row 4, you can see that a 2080ti powering a Vive at 2.0 supersample averaging 87 FPS. Vive with 2.0 supersample is 10.1 million pixels.

 

No, its not. Vive is a SteamVR headset and the SS setting in SteamVR is not multiplicative. It just tells you the increase in overall pixels, not the increase in both x and y axes. Feel free to check this yourself. Even if he was using a different tool for SS than SteamVR, its still contradictory to the other test mentioned earlier. 

 

Either way, we are just wasting time here now. Time to move one. Let's wait for actual release before making tall claims. Reverb will have a 60 HZ setting as well so maybe that can at least be achieved with some tweaks. 90 FPS seems like a pipe dream on the Reverb with the 2080Ti unless you really go cheap on the graphic settings. 

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9 hours ago, cranium1 said:

Its for a Pimax 5K which is 7.3 million pixels and at 100% SS it has average FPS of less than 45.

No, 25 million pixels

 

Search for "internal SS" on this forum

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, TUS_Samuel said:

No, 25 million pixels

 

Search for "internal SS" on this forum

 

Every headset has some level of super sampling by default to account for things like edge distortion. I guess that is what you are calling "internal SS". I called it overhead a few posts back. 

 

On 5/30/2019 at 2:21 AM, cranium1 said:

a Reverb with its 9.3 million pixels + overhead anyway 

 

Regarding the 25 million super sampled pixels, SteamVR caps the super sampling at 4096 pixels on the horizontal resolution. Can the testers confirmed they bypassed this manually?

Edited by Panthera_Tigris

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Hey guys!, note that we are just making predictions with very scarce test and a mix of subjective impressions.

 

We miss a lot a proper benchmark in IL-2 VR to compare performances of CPU&GPU&VR HMD.

 

Dburne has been always very reluctant to the benchmarks in general, so when he is using his supermachine (9900K at 5.1 and 2080Ti) with the Rift at 1.6 SS_OTT or the Rift-S at 1.4 SS_OTT he is handling 11,4 million pixels "well". And I tend to believe what he say, he has been using Rift for two years and I don´t think he will use a SS that will drop his fps a lot.

He said that he maintain 90 fps most of the time, with few drops in very heavy situations. But this drops are not due to GPU or too much pixels, but CPU bottleneck. You will experiment those drops even with a Titan RTX and a Oculus DK1. 

 

In terms of resolution, we should never be afraid of a display of for example 7680x4320 per eye (if one day arrives), since resolution itself never plays against us.

The real limit is the GPU, not the panel.

 

If you use a 7680x4320 display in VR with a Titan RTX you might need to decrease SS to 30% (I really don´t know the numbers), but this will be for sure much better than running a VR display of 1280x1440 at 200% SS.

 

In addition to that, there are some simple techniques of FFR which can decrease the GPU load and then allow a higher SS.

12 hours ago, cranium1 said:

Just have a look at the graph in that tab and its accompanying data. Its for a Pimax 5K which is 7.3 million pixels and at 100% SS it has average FPS of less than 45.

 

I did those test with my 4790K at 4.8GHz and my 1080Ti. With Pimax5K+ at 100% SS_SteamVR you achieve 43fps, but this is 25.3 million pixels!

 

If I use 26% SS then the avg fps is 81 fps, which is 6.5 million pixels.

But I know I am a bit constrained by my CPU here, so with an 8086K at 5.2 I could do better.

 

So, it is very important to know the internal SS (also called default resolution) of every device. We still don´t know/understand how Reverb handle the internal SS.

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23 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

Hey guys!, note that we are just making predictions with very scarce test and a mix of subjective impressions.

 

Thanks for doing this! It is very helpful indeed but I think some users  here do not realise that subjectivity is a part of predictive testing. This is a great initiative!

 

24 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

I did those test with my 4790K at 4.8GHz and my 1080Ti. With Pimax5K+ at 100% SS_SteamVR you achieve 43fps, but this is 25.3 million pixels!

 

By the way, did you take the following into consideration for Pimax testing:

 

31 minutes ago, cranium1 said:

Regarding the 25 million super sampled pixels, SteamVR caps the super sampling at 4096 pixels on the horizontal resolution. Can the testers confirmed they bypassed this manually?

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

We miss a lot a proper benchmark in IL-2 VR to compare performances of CPU&GPU&VR HMD.

I'm currently running a i7 8086K @ 5.1Ghz liquid cooled via 240mm radiator, Zotac RTX 2080ti with FireStorm for boost in fan speed and +15% voltage. MS OS and IL2 are on WD Black 521Gb M.2 Nvme SSD. My ram is 32Gb DDR4 3600 C18 but have ordered 32Gb 3200 C14 due to arrive next Monday. My motherboard is an ASRock Z370 Killer. My Odyssey+ works best at your suggested 133% SS in SteamVR but I'm very curious what the Reverb may offer. WMR has improved recently and another tweak is in Win 1903 being released.

MY CPU was stable @ 5.2 but the motherboard began to get warm so I settled on 5.1 where it has performed like a champ. I have not kept track of FPS and aim to get the best appearing and smoothest image to my eye and avoid the added burden of the fps counter.

What sort of benchmark would you like for me to perform? Keep in mind I have zero experience with mission editor.

Edited by Gordon200

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Interesting video!!

 

- Shows that you need 180% SS in SteamVR to play close to Reverb native resolution. Which means the headset subsamples a LOT if left alone.

-  I like the 60 HZ settings! Meaning I can play at 60 FPS without resorting to re-projection. Nice!! I would rather take 60 FPS without reprojection than 90 FPS half o which is interpolated, fake frames.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

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Interesting.

However I run an I7 8700k @ 5Ghz with a GTX 1080 TI, and it drives an Oculus Rift S at a satisfactory frame rate in IL2 (60/80 fps without ASW) and barely satisfactory in DCS (40 fps with ASW, but it seems a VR optimization is coming ).

So I might consider the Reverb next year when I upgrade my GPU to an RTX 2080 TI. With my current system it would be only an exercise in frustration.

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4 hours ago, Panthera_Tigris said:

Interesting video!!

 

- Shows that you need 180% SS in SteamVR to play close to Reverb native resolution. Which means the headset subsamples a LOT if left alone.

-  I like the 60 HZ settings! Meaning I can play at 60 FPS without resorting to re-projection. Nice!! I would rather take 60 FPS without reprojection than 90 FPS half o which is interpolated, fake frames.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

60hz is crap its way too low. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Panthera_Tigris said:

Interesting video!!

 

- Shows that you need 180% SS in SteamVR to play close to Reverb native resolution. Which means the headset subsamples a LOT if left alone.

-  I like the 60 HZ settings! Meaning I can play at 60 FPS without resorting to re-projection. Nice!! I would rather take 60 FPS without reprojection than 90 FPS half o which is interpolated, fake frames.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

You can set the 60 FPS limit on every HS, Windows10 does have 3 tastes  on that subject 60, 90 and automatic.

Edited by Dutch2

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6 minutes ago, Dutch2 said:

 

You can set the 60 FPS limit on every HS, Windows10 does have 3 tastes  on that subject 60, 90 and automatic.

 

Not on every headset. Only on Windows MR. Y

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8 hours ago, Panthera_Tigris said:

Regarding the 25 million super sampled pixels, SteamVR caps the super sampling at 4096 pixels on the horizontal resolution. Can the testers confirmed they bypassed this manually?

 

the SteamVR cap is for 4096x3463 per eye. 

On my tests I didn´t go beyond 100% SS in SteamVR with normal FOV and RenderQuality=1, so didn´t reach that limit.

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Hate to jump in here. To lazy to read all the way back through the tread, whats the general conciseness on this head set?  Yay or Nay? My vive pro is falling apart and looking to replace.  

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Best picture, standard fov, not so roomscale:ish. If your at ~63mm ipd, do most gaming sitting in a chair and have a nice gpu, go for it.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, JV44_Megla said:

To lazy to read all the way back through the tread, whats the general conciseness on this head set?  Yay or Nay?

 

Don't know what the general consensus is, but I think we have a winner here if the reviews are anything to go by. The video review I linked earlier shows actual in-game FPS with fpsVR with different games and there has been another video by MRTV who also praised the clarity. But its a lot of pixel to push and if you see the video, the headset actually sub-samples a LOT by default. You need 188% SS in SteamVR just to get to the native resolution of 2160x2160. 

 

So you probably wont be able to push 90 FPS in demanding games  at it's native resolution (which is what my original point was). But I personally think 60 FPS at 60 Hz should be playable as well (at least it was for the reviewer in that video). And even if it down-samples a bit, it will still be better than any other headset. And you still will have room to benefit from performance or GPU upgrades. Just my 2 cents. 

 

Its available on HP UK and I am thinking of ordering it from there via a freight forwarder (as HP UK is not doing intl. shipping). Or maybe just wait a few days to see if it pops up elsewhere. 

 

 

Edited by Panthera_Tigris

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Posted (edited)

My IPD is at 68mm.

 

I'll have a much smaller FOV with it than someone with 64mm. Which is why I am reluctant, I will only order it through a German seller, because I will be legally able to give it back within 14 days, no questions asked.

 

 

Another point to consider is that people who use glasses have a much narrower natural Field of View. They'll be fine off with the headset's narrow FOV, which is why some reviewers like the ones mentioned said "it's no issue to me", I suspect. I wonder if I'll be fine with that though - lately the Odyssey's narrow FOV has really come to bug me. It's quite hard to check your own six with this, or see others in your (non-existant) peripheral view. I compared it with squadmate Polo's setup of 3 widescreen monitors, and he sees much more in that.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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Posted (edited)

For titles like il2 reprojection performance is critical even with an i9900k + 4400mhz ram + 2080 oc'd.  

 

From the video here sounds like the reverb does not come close to oculus regarding reproduction performance 

Edited by capt_nasties

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Nice review of the Reverb. Perking my interest more and more.

 

 

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On 6/1/2019 at 1:33 AM, capt_nasties said:

For titles like il2 reprojection performance is critical even with an i9900k + 4400mhz ram + 2080 oc'd.  

 

From the video here sounds like the reverb does not come close to oculus regarding reproduction performance 

Nothing comes close to the reprojection accuracy of Oculus - but as far as I know that doesn't apply to IL-2. So I've heard. The game needs the APIs for that!

So eventually it is the same.

 

And yes I agree, when I had been running with reprojection in WMR, I could ramp up the details to max. Unfortunately, the Odyssey isn't Hi-Res enough to justify doing that.

 

 

I will watch the Review now and hope

1) he'll mention the radiant degree of the cone of clear vision when you look through the sweet spot.

2) vertical FOV (reportedly smaller than Gen1 headsets and much smaller than Pimax 5k+')

3) I also hope to find a Reviewer that has a similar IPD (68) like me, and the effect of a wider FOV on horizontal FOV. The reviewers so far have had 64 (for example, "MRTV" Mr. Ang).

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IL-2 does support ASW 2.0 natively.

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Posted (edited)

wow

 

Well can't use the excuse that VR is too low res to jump in now.

 

That's desktop quality.

Edited by JgonRedcorn

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1 hour ago, JgonRedcorn said:

wow

 

Well can't use the excuse that VR is too low res to jump in now.

 

That's desktop quality.

true. It looks amazing.

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Wags comments on REVERB in DCS

" Hey everyone,

As mentioned earlier, I had an HP Reverb loaner coming this week and it arrived yesterday. Wow! This is truly a banner year for VR and the Reverb is a huge part of that. I can’t and won’t compare to other products, but here are some of my impressions after about an hour in the device:

  • As expected, the resolution of the displays really sets it apart. Even in cockpits with very small texts, it is possible to read. Clarity is approaching 2D monitor levels and I could see no evidence of SDE. It is a GREAT VR device for DCS World. I personally did not notice any god rays and the blacks were quite deep.
  • I’m personally a big fan of inside-out tracking. I don’t really “do” room-scale VR, so the ease of setup, maintenance of tracking, and freeing up USB ports is a huge plus for me.
  • Even with the higher resolution, I did not notice any appreciable performance loss outside of my expectations given the nature of VR. Performance was quite good.
  • I really can’t comment on the hand controllers because I don’t use them.
  • Comfort was very nice and I felt very “at home”. There was also very little light bleed through the nose area which I appreciate.
  • I have a rather narrow IPD (59), but I was still able to get a great setting.

Later this month I will send the device to our team to allow native support (no SteamVR requirement)

There are a growing number of outstanding VR options this year, and I believe it will come down to your budget available and the features you prize most. If outstanding resolution, inside-out tracking, and comfort rank high for you, I can certainly give the Reveb my stamp of approval.

Well done HP!

Thanks,
Wags "

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Wow going to have to seriously consider the Reverb now to compliment my VR experience.

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My Reverb got delivered today, but unfortunately I am on a vacation trip and will not be back home before Sunday. A friend of mine got his Reverb yesterday and is amazed about the picture quality, he likes it very much and says it is a good step forward compared to a Rift. The performance with a 1080Ti seems good. He does not do flight sims, only Sim Racing, but with that the Reverb performs great.

I plan to test IL-2 and the Reverb this Sunday. I am very curious how it performs with IL-2 BoX.

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The clarity is clearly beyond equal, that will be certain already! Grats to your new Reverb!

 

What interests me most at the moment is the FOV. Can you please use this app  https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1359389601

 

With that you can tell us how the Vertical and Horizontal Field of View is. It's something that no reviewer so far has actually tested. We could so far only rely on "114° diagonal FOV" and I'd like to know how this distributes.

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Who did. You order. It thru? I ordered thru Amazon & have yet to hear. If it is in stock & will be shipped?

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1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

Who did. You order. It thru? I ordered thru Amazon & have yet to hear. If it is in stock & will be shipped?

 

I preordered in an onlineshop in the Netherlands called "DeRekenwinkel" and it was one of the first ones who got stock in Europe. Even HP´s official own webshop in Germany is still out of stock.

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12 hours ago, spitfirejoe said:

in the Netherlands called "DeRekenwinkel"

 

Hey!  Thanks very much for the shop. I have just made my Reverb order there, estimated shipping to Spain is 18th-June

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Hi Mr. Chiliwili69 if you would have ordered early, you would have got the delivery already. Once I decided to do a preorder of the Reverb I found that shop by accident and ordered early, that's why I got the first batch, which was sold out quickly. Amazon Germany does still not list the Reverb,  still hard to find retailers in Europe who sells it or have it in stock.

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5 hours ago, spitfirejoe said:

if you would have ordered early, you would have got the delivery already.

 

Don´t worry, a couple of weeks is nothing for a VR resolution we have been waiting for many years...

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1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

spitfirejoe, can you do the Field of View tests? Nobody has posted his findings so far. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1359389601

 

 

I never used this app. I will try to install it and if it works I will try. Just give me time, I am still on vacation and not happy that I am not at home now.

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