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Reverb - new offering from HP

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, bombdetere said:

roadtovr has a review:

 

https://www.roadtovr.com/hp-reverb-review-vr-headset/

 

" Unfortunately, overall clarity is held back in a large way by plainly visible mura. Mura looks a lot like the screen door effect but is actually the result of poor consistency in color and brightness between pixels. There’s also a few other curious visual artifacts. There’s a considerable amount of chromatic aberration outside of the lenses’ sweet spot. "

 

If it is what I think it is then the picture quality 'mura' effect will be similar to the Odyssey+.  Lots of folks were ok with it, I personally didn't like the 'constant fog' feeling I got from it.

The guys from roadtovr seem to have disqualified themselves for a proper review.

Mura can appear on OLED displays. As far as I know it cannot even appear on LCDs, as it's a problem native to OLEDs (p.s. I am an OLED fanboy, even got an LG 65" c8 and the Odyssey).

So whatever they are referring to, it's not Mura. It also seems the review is based on what they have seen during the preview screening 2 months ago. There was a WIP headset that had red smear when turning quickly (slower reacting red subpixels). That's why at the bottom of the review there is the disclaimer according to the lines "full review will follow", I'd guess.

 

So, things remain interesting. The Index has a lower pixel density than the Odyssey and Pimax 5K+ due to their higher FOV, but LCD screens with 3 subpixels (got to wait and see how these turn out, I'm very very sceptical about the color quality in the Index). No idea yet which HMD will make the race for flight sims.

 

We'll see how actual reviews turn out ;)

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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On 3/19/2019 at 5:27 PM, JonRedcorn said:

Nobodies going to be able to run this thing, you guys are crazy!🤪

It should run fine with a 2080 non ti card.

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2 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

The guys from roadtovr seem to have disqualified themselves for a proper review.

Mura can appear on OLED displays. As far as I know it cannot even appear on LCDs, as it's a problem native to OLEDs (p.s. I am an OLED fanboy, even got an LG 65" c8 and the Odyssey).

So whatever they are referring to, it's not Mura. It also seems the review is based on what they have seen during the preview screening 2 months ago. There was a WIP headset that had red smear when turning quickly (slower reacting red subpixels). That's why at the bottom of the review there is the disclaimer according to the lines "full review will follow", I'd guess.

 

So, things remain interesting. The Index has a lower pixel density than the Odyssey and Pimax 5K+ due to their higher FOV, but LCD screens with 3 subpixels (got to wait and see how these turn out, I'm very very sceptical about the color quality in the Index). No idea yet which HMD will make the race for flight sims.

 

We'll see how actual reviews turn out ;)

 

Mura can appear on any display as far as I know. It's just a difference in colour between pixels. This can be bad production, or a calibration issue of sorts. Reasons for mura can also vary. Even temperature and pressure can create this effect in some cases. Try pressing your finger on an LCD display as an example.

 

If you read some of the discussions on Reddit where Ben from RoadToVR discusses the different headsets, you will see that he still puts the Reverb on top in terms of pure resolution, AA etc. The visual clarity in terms of image quality (least noise and so on) on the other hand is less than for some of the other headsets. He concluded that for general immersion he would choose another headset, but that for simming the Reverb might be the best bet.

 

Here is one of the topics.

 

I must say though, that I would personally gladly accept some mura for a 3.6x increase of pixel count over the ~same field of view. There is already a fair bit of mura on the Rift when it's dark, and I'm not bothered with it. You sort of "look through it" the same way you do with the gap between pixels(SDE). The Bf109 ahead of that "filter" is much more interesting to look at through my gunsight🤣

 

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1 hour ago, kissklas said:

. He concluded that for general immersion he would choose another headset, but that for simming the Reverb might be the best bet.

 

the challenge with IL2 is the higher resolution you plug-in the worse performance you get, hence you need to lower it significantly to get the proper fps performance. That's the reason I returned the 5K+.  Yes, at pitool x2 and 200%SS  that thing looked fantastic, but no way playable... i mean unless you want to see a photo slideshow..  Dropping the resolution to lower levels introduces all sorts of artifacts, color changes, very poor color contrast became highly apparent.  I think the same challenge will be with Reverb as nobody would be able to run it at 100% resolution all the time and then finding not so pleasant compromises.  

 

I preordered Index to compare it against the VivePro. If its 20degree of additional FOV is indeed a reality that would be enough of an upgrade for me for this year.  The HMD's are ahead of the current gen hardware+software, no need to push for it anymore.

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19 minutes ago, bombdetere said:

 

the challenge with IL2 is the higher resolution you plug-in the worse performance you get, hence you need to lower it significantly to get the proper fps performance. That's the reason I returned the 5K+.  Yes, at pitool x2 and 200%SS  that thing looked fantastic, but no way playable... i mean unless you want to see a photo slideshow..  Dropping the resolution to lower levels introduces all sorts of artifacts, color changes, very poor color contrast became highly apparent.  I think the same challenge will be with Reverb as nobody would be able to run it at 100% resolution all the time and then finding not so pleasant compromises.  

 

I preordered Index to compare it against the VivePro. If its 20degree of additional FOV is indeed a reality that would be enough of an upgrade for me for this year.  The HMD's are ahead of the current gen hardware+software, no need to push for it anymore.

 

Certainly for complex flight sims absolutely.

Some made for VR games will probably be ok.

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Well, if you supersample up from a native pixel count of 3686400 pixels it will take a toll on the system. But you have to consider that you are spreading these pixels out over a larger field (170 degrees?) with the Pimax. The pixel count of 4665600 per eye on the Reverb over a much narrower ~114 degrees may not require you to supersample at all. Turning off some bells and whistles, I hope to achieve a playable framerate with my 2080. Right now everything is maxed just for the hell of it with the Rift.

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1 minute ago, kissklas said:

Well, if you supersample up from a native pixel count of 3686400 pixels it will take a toll on the system. But you have to consider that you are spreading these pixels out over a larger field (170 degrees?) with the Pimax. The pixel count of 4665600 per eye on the Reverb over a much narrower ~114 degrees may not require you to supersample at all. Turning off some bells and whistles, I hope to achieve a playable framerate with my 2080. Right now everything is maxed just for the hell of it with the Rift.

 

you'll have compromises no matter how you look at it. And with those compromises comes the inevitable subpar experience (product dependent). If HP is somehow ahead of everyone else and optimized the HMD for all methods of operation then that'd be fantastic. Somehow I feel it mostly like isn't.

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Just now, bombdetere said:

 

you'll have compromises no matter how you look at it. And with those compromises comes the inevitable subpar experience (product dependent). If HP is somehow ahead of everyone else and optimized the HMD for all methods of operation then that'd be fantastic. Somehow I feel it mostly like isn't.

 

Yeah. Compromising is the name of the game with VR, we just have to compromise towards what we feel comfortable with. I trade away the increased FOV for a denser resolution in the viewing direction. I will also most likely have to trade some eye candy. But all in all going from the Rift to the Reverb I think I will lift the overall experience rather then getting a sub par experience. I am already quite used to the sub par experience of being a severely near sighted pilot in battle. ID is a pain sometimes with the Rift.

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I'm eager to try the HP Reverb but hesitate because of the problems I'm experiencing with the WMR app.

Lately I need to delete WMR app before shutting down my computer then reinstalling when I want to use VR. Otherwise I get the 'Check your display cable' error message endlessly. Delete, reboot and reinstall the app and somehow the faulty display cable works without a problem.

I contacted Microsoft's joke of a customer service department about the WMR app and the 'tech' asked me if I was trying to use WMR in VR! Do some people try to use it on a flat screen monitor?

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3 minutes ago, Gordon200 said:

...WMR app and the 'tech' asked me if I was trying to use WMR in VR! Do some people try to use it on a flat screen monitor?

 

The platform Windows Mixed Reality also delivers actual Mixed Reality as well as Virtual Reality solutions. You can look at it a bit like Augmented Reality just with features from Virtual Reality. He might have wondered if you were trying to use a Holo Lens or an actual VR headset I guess.

 

I'm also eager to try the Reverb, but like you I am slightly worried. Mostly about the recent reports from reviewers about colour smearing, pupil swim and mura. I can deal with some things but there is a limit.

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Regarding the Mura, this is what SweViver (a VR YouTuber) and several other users have said. A quick search told me that Mura is likely an OLED issue.

 

Then today, VR-Legion.de (German page) reports that the launch of the HP Reverb will get pushed back further. They seem to have "run into some bigger manufacturing problems".

 

That's all the information I got on it now.

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57 minutes ago, Gordon200 said:

I'm eager to try the HP Reverb but hesitate because of the problems I'm experiencing with the WMR app.

Lately I need to delete WMR app before shutting down my computer then reinstalling when I want to use VR. Otherwise I get the 'Check your display cable' error message endlessly. Delete, reboot and reinstall the app and somehow the faulty display cable works without a problem.

I contacted Microsoft's joke of a customer service department about the WMR app and the 'tech' asked me if I was trying to use WMR in VR! Do some people try to use it on a flat screen monitor?

 

the ONLY way you can fix it is to re-apply the quarterly update, whatever you have right now.. or get the new one that just came out..

 

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58 minutes ago, Gordon200 said:

I'm eager to try the HP Reverb but hesitate because of the problems I'm experiencing with the WMR app.

Lately I need to delete WMR app before shutting down my computer then reinstalling when I want to use VR. Otherwise I get the 'Check your display cable' error message endlessly. Delete, reboot and reinstall the app and somehow the faulty display cable works without a problem.

I contacted Microsoft's joke of a customer service department about the WMR app and the 'tech' asked me if I was trying to use WMR in VR! Do some people try to use it on a flat screen monitor?

That's weird. Some ideas: You could maybe just pull the cable out...?

 

I haven't run into that bug yet. Make sure you're on the latest Nvidia drivers, Windows 10 version 1809. I guess you have thought of these already. Very weird thing indeed.

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5 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Then today, VR-Legion.de (German page) reports that the launch of the HP Reverb will get pushed back further. They seem to have "run into some bigger manufacturing problems".

 

Aw, that's a shame. But good I guess if they fix some of the issues reported.

 

5 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Regarding the Mura, this is what SweViver (a VR YouTuber) and several other users have said. A quick search told me that Mura is likely an OLED issue.

 

The reverb uses LCD displays. As I wrote above, the mura effect can apply to most any type of display for different reasons. Here is some good information of mura for both OLED and LCD type displays.

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1 minute ago, kissklas said:

 

Aw, that's a shame. But good I guess if they fix some of the issues reported.

 

 

The reverb uses LCD displays. As I wrote above, the mura effect can apply to most any type of display for different reasons. Here is some good information of mura for both OLED and LCD type displays.

Precisely, it has LCD displays. That's why people were wondering "how can there be mura", as the premise was that this can't happen on LCDs (of that display size). Seems it can happen after all.

 

Then let's hope they can fix their manufacturing issues and get the quality the engineers thought of when designing the device. I'd really like this headset to work.

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1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

That's why people were wondering "how can there be mura"

Ah sorry, I misunderstood your post there. Anyways, a bit of mura is ok by me. I can live with the amount my Rift has for example, though I understand that some might be more sensitive to it.

 

1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Then let's hope they can fix their manufacturing issues and get the quality the engineers thought of when designing the device. I'd really like this headset to work.

 

Fingers crossed. It's either this level of increase in resolution or no upgrade for me this generation, so I really hope HP comes through.

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Posted (edited)

Acer is releasing headset this year with same specs and manual ipd adjustment.

Edited by TunaEatsLion

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10 minutes ago, TunaEatsLion said:

Acer is releasing headset this year with same specs and manual ipd adjustment.

 

Yeah I have had a look at the specs, but not yet realized that the form factor looks close to the rift form factor. The visor thing was what kept me away. Might have a second look at it, though the reverb looks damn comfy...

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7 hours ago, bombdetere said:

 

the ONLY way you can fix it is to re-apply the quarterly update, whatever you have right now.. or get the new one that just came out..

 

I can't find any information on quarterly updates from Samsung or Microsoft. Can you provide a link?

 

Just spent a hour on the phone trying to get tech support. Samsung customer support redirected me to their 'HMD specialist' who after listening to my problem told me he wasn't trained to answer questions about HMD problems.

 

It's my understanding that the display ports on GPUs are not meant to be plugged and unplugged numerous times. Considering the cost of a RTX 2080ti I don't want to destroy the display ports over a glitch in their software.

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2 hours ago, Gordon200 said:

I can't find any information on quarterly updates from Samsung or Microsoft. Can you provide a link?

 

Just spent a hour on the phone trying to get tech support. Samsung customer support redirected me to their 'HMD specialist' who after listening to my problem told me he wasn't trained to answer questions about HMD problems.

 

It's my understanding that the display ports on GPUs are not meant to be plugged and unplugged numerous times. Considering the cost of a RTX 2080ti I don't want to destroy the display ports over a glitch in their software.

 

by the 'quarterly' update I mean the spring/fall updates Microsoft releases for the Win10.  The last update was 1809.  The new one coming next month is 1903.

 

You can re-install the 1809 using the Update Assistant from here:

 

https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows10

 

It'll reset all of your settings, and will require additional updates released since October. etc.. but it'll fix the WMR issue.

 

That's my biggest issue with Windows WMR platform. If it's broken there is no way to 'fix' it by just removing it, reinstalling, etc. It's so deeply baked in to the OS that reapplying this spring/fall "service pack" is the only way.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, bombdetere said:

That's my biggest issue with Windows WMR platform. If it's broken there is no way to 'fix' it by just removing it, reinstalling, etc. It's so deeply baked in to the OS that reapplying this spring/fall "service pack" is the only way

 

I see, I was not taking into account this factor when thinking on the WMR devices.

8 hours ago, Gordon200 said:

Just spent a hour on the phone trying to get tech support. Samsung customer support redirected me to their 'HMD specialist' who after listening to my problem told me he wasn't trained to answer questions about HMD problems.

 

Hah, ha ha, When I had initial problems with the Pimax5K I contacted them and they were very efficient and agile in their assistance. Yes, it greatly surprised me. The good think of the Pimax is if you are lucky to get them into your problem they are quite skilled in their only one product. It is surprising that a giant like Samsung has a poorer support than a small chinese company...

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I have had less issues with the WMR platform than with Oculus' Home v2 and its various versions in the past (I was an early bird with Oculus). I simply kept my Windows 10 up-to-date. Anyway, I think they can all be considered stable by now, and we can probably agree that SteamVR offers the best integration of them all anyway.

 

 

News on the release for us Europeans:

 

ccb5da67d620fc76775231fb5f919c07dce99812

Posted by Dennis Van Der Pool on RoadtoVR.com

 

P.S.

Check this out. WMR Headsets using SteamVR Controllers.

 

So we can use Index Controllers with the HP Reverb. Can have your cake and eat it!:big_boss:

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Posted (edited)

Here is some new stuff that has popped up in the last 24 hours.

 

Unboxing and fit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx2LqMaU2cA

 

Some through lens images:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6Ag81aWsAAupUK.jpg

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6Ax-mgWsAIpGXU.jpg

 

The original tweet from MRTV:

https://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/hp-reverb-through-the-lense-mrtv/19661

Edited by kissklas
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2 hours ago, kissklas said:

 

Those lens shots look good. Here's a Rift S vs OG Vive comparison, the Rift S looks sharper but absolutely miles behind from the Reverb. I can't even *see* pixel-gap in the Reverb shots.

 

https://www.pwrdown.com/gaming/oculus-rift-s-through-the-lens-shots-revealed-by-reddit-user/

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The big question:

How is the Reverb going to perform on combat flight simming.

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1 hour ago, Alonzo said:

 

Those lens shots look good. Here's a Rift S vs OG Vive comparison, the Rift S looks sharper but absolutely miles behind from the Reverb. I can't even *see* pixel-gap in the Reverb shots.

 

https://www.pwrdown.com/gaming/oculus-rift-s-through-the-lens-shots-revealed-by-reddit-user/

 

I only wish he had shown some high res cockpit textures, and used a macro lens on an DSLR to get a clear and completely in focus image. The pics are ok, but still doesn't really show us too much of the level of clarity.

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Posted (edited)

You must seriously be joking. I was sure it was an image of a home cockpit build at first... but it seems to be a through the lens shot.

 

 Edit: Another nice shot!

 

jqanyvonf1x21.jpg

Edited by kissklas
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Wow that looks pretty sweet.

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3 minutes ago, dburne said:

Wow that looks pretty sweet.

 

It seems this is the one for me. A month living off from crackers and dead bugs here I come, apparently.

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3 minutes ago, kissklas said:

 

It seems this is the one for me. A month living off from crackers and dead bugs here I come, apparently.

 

Lol yeah tempting, but I will still wait to hear reports form some users here.

Will give me time to thoroughly check out the new Rift S when it gets here.

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1 minute ago, dburne said:

 

Lol yeah tempting, but I will still wait to hear reports form some users here.

Will give me time to thoroughly check out the new Rift S when it gets here.

 

I'd be happy to share my thoughts, if it ever shows up in a store that ships to Norway.

Usually it takes a while to get over the mountains on foot or row all the way into the fjords with goods, so we'll see🤣

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20 minutes ago, kissklas said:

 

It seems this is the one for me. A month living off from crackers and dead bugs here I come, apparently.

I heard the bugs are pretty tasty in Norway...

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1 hour ago, TunaEatsLion said:

I heard the bugs are pretty tasty in Norway...

 

Oh yes, very crunchy.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah the in the lens shots look nice, but the in the lense shots I saw of the odyssey + looked amazing too, turned out it didn't look as good as the screen shots and il2 runs like crap on it if you want it to look half way decent. This things going to need a system that doesn't exist yet to play il2 on anything but low preset.

 

Need to realize the further away the picture is taken from the lens the more clear it's going to look. Putting your eye up against it is a different story. What does look interesting is how big the sweet spot looks with little blur, the o+ has lots of blur around it and makes seeing gauges in DCS difficult. Definitely waiting for that acer headset with the same specs with the manual ipd.

Edited by JonRedcorn
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17 hours ago, dburne said:

The big question:

How is the Reverb going to perform on combat flight simming.

 

From the CPU demand point of view it will run exactly the same.

From the GPU demand point of view it will run exactly the same for the same number of rendered pixels.

 

I mean that if you set you Rift (with ASW off) with OTT PD=1.6 (or SS SteamVR at 266%) your system will perform the same than the Reverb with SS SteamVR at 100%. (which is 11.4 million pixels).

Assuming that Reverb uses same internal supersampling than previous HP WMR device.

 

So you can already test your system.

6 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

how big the sweet spot looks with little blur,

 

The images shown above are quite nice, but as you say the sweet spot is very very important. I know this well from one year ago, buying a VivePro and selling it a month later.

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1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

From the CPU demand point of view it will run exactly the same.

From the GPU demand point of view it will run exactly the same for the same number of rendered pixels.

 

I mean that if you set you Rift (with ASW off) with OTT PD=1.6 (or SS SteamVR at 266%) your system will perform the same than the Reverb with SS SteamVR at 100%. (which is 11.4 million pixels).

Assuming that Reverb uses same internal supersampling than previous HP WMR device.

 

So you can already test your system.

 

The images shown above are quite nice, but as you say the sweet spot is very very important. I know this well from one year ago, buying a VivePro and selling it a month later.

 

Interesting, by that then I should get the same good performance in IL-2 as I am running it at 1.6 SS.

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11 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

Yeah the in the lens shots look nice, but the in the lense shots I saw of the odyssey + looked amazing too, turned out it didn't look as good as the screen shots and il2 runs like crap on it if you want it to look half way decent. This things going to need a system that doesn't exist yet to play il2 on anything but low preset.

 

Need to realize the further away the picture is taken from the lens the more clear it's going to look. Putting your eye up against it is a different story. What does look interesting is how big the sweet spot looks with little blur, the o+ has lots of blur around it and makes seeing gauges in DCS difficult. Definitely waiting for that acer headset with the same specs with the manual ipd.

 

yup, exactly. I don't know why, but these 'lens shots' are becoming a de-facto reporting standard for VR enthusiasts, when in reality there are nothing but a bait-and-switch material. I remember seeing Pimax lens shots, Odyssey+ shots, Oculus, Vive, pretty much all of them. NONE of them looked anything close to when I actually put the HMD on my head.

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It was great help for me when choosing the Rift over the Vive. Through the lens images showed the difference in clarity of the center, and also made me aware of the amount of glare from the rift lenses. All in all for me it ended up being a real good pointer to how it was going to look, even in terms of perceived resolution. A good, close, correctly focused image is needed of course, but you can sort of single out the bad ones once you see them.

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1 hour ago, kissklas said:

It was great help for me when choosing the Rift over the Vive. Through the lens images showed the difference in clarity of the center, and also made me aware of the amount of glare from the rift lenses. All in all for me it ended up being a real good pointer to how it was going to look, even in terms of perceived resolution. A good, close, correctly focused image is needed of course, but you can sort of single out the bad ones once you see them.

 

there's a lot of information in those images that can be misrepresented depending on the camera used, distance from the lens, filters, side lighting, camera sensor, etc.. etc... For a general VR user all it represents is "hey, it's working"..

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One thing is for sure and that is the VR market isn't dying on it's feet like some people will have you believe.

I think the next 5 years will be very interesting personally.

 

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