Amyel Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 Do not be fixated so much on just 262 as it's present only for short period of rotation. 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: he whole "Allies are OP by default" argument is just stupidity. So you say the only reason for axis loosing every map (last season 8:1) is just due to the fact they have new, unskilled pilots and got nothing to do with planes? Even though statistics say they have better overall performance and effect on battle flow? So server is based on performance and yet we have plane in planeset4 with K/D 1.92 already. Are axis pilots only capable to fly earlier planesets? When did you fly axis for last time to show your magnificent skills? 58 minutes ago, CountZero said: how can you have limits of airplanes based on history but not putt reasons why they are build or used in thouse numbers also into equasion. Tempest - number built 1702 Me-262 - number built 1430 Spit XIV - number built 957 1 hour ago, CountZero said: didnt allieds had more in ww2 Not throughout the whole war. And yet i'm not postulating to have more axis pilots for early planesets. For sake of balanced game axis do not have 109F in 1st preset. Even though both F2 and F4 were produced before battle of Moscow happened (and that's the earliest event in BoX franchise). So obviously 1 hour ago, CountZero said: i think its already to advantagus towards axis 52 minutes ago, JG1_Wittmann said: it has been said, more than once by LL that the ac are not according to historical dates but have been balanced. Which is great, but seeing axis always losing might indicate that maybe some tiny rebalancing is overdue?
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 23 minutes ago, Amyel said: Do not be fixated so much on just 262 as it's present only for short period of rotation. 1 - So you say the only reason for axis loosing every map (last season 8:1) is just due to the fact they have new, unskilled pilots and got nothing to do with planes? Even though statistics say they have better overall performance and effect on battle flow? 2 - So server is based on performance and yet we have plane in planeset4 with K/D 1.92 already. Are axis pilots only capable to fly earlier planesets? 3- When did you fly axis for last time to show your magnificent skills? 1- More new pilots do go for Axis planes than Allied. These statistics do not say ANYTHING about plane performance, only pilot performance and what plane(s) those pilots are using. 2 - Muh I-16 OP plz nerf. 3 - whataboutism is always an argument winner.... I suppose I can fly Axis on Loose Deuce if you like and we can start looking at the results. I won't do it on Finnish main because I agreed with my squad to stay to one side on that particular server. Sadly, it also won't be a 1:1 comparison as I only have so much time to fly and LD is not very populated. Last time I flew Axis on Loose Deuce with a G-14, my stats were 30 minutes, 30 bullets, 1 dead Pe-2, no damage, 33.3% accuracy. If we want to call personal stats into question.... Looking at your stats you can barely keep an Allied plane intact for more than 2 sorties vs. doing MUCH better with Axis.
Amyel Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 11 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: These statistics do not say ANYTHING about plane performance, only pilot performance and what plane(s) those pilots are using. Finally we are getting to some conclusions. So we do know that new players prefer to join axis and due to that that side mostly loses. Now as it's been mentioned on numerous occasion that server is supposed to be balanced - and i'm only assuming here that it means balance by plane performance - how is this calculated? I wonder what is your take on that matter, just mind 2 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: if you can't provide actual DATA that shows each aircraft's performance + weaponry and compares advantages to disadvantages you should provide some other means of measurement. Perhaps some kind of statitics to use would be nice. 16 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Muh I-16 OP plz nerf. Am i advocating that we should have F2/4 in 1st planeset? Not really - so you have summarised your own post perfectly 17 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: whataboutism is always an argument winner.... 18 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: If we want to call personal stats into question.. I have not pointed out to your stats. Yes, i'm still learning things. I'm flying axis on current map and will switch to other side as soon as this one is finished. Just checking my stats for previous seson you can see that k/h is in tempest and spread is actually quite even between axis/allies planes. My almost most played plane was P-51. With k.d = 3.22 and k/h = 2.67 - i'm actually quite happy with it.
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 22 minutes ago, Amyel said: Finally we are getting to some conclusions. So we do know that new players prefer to join axis and due to that that side mostly loses. Now as it's been mentioned on numerous occasion that server is supposed to be balanced - and i'm only assuming here that it means balance by plane performance - how is this calculated? I wonder what is your take on that matter, just mind you should provide some other means of measurement. Perhaps some kind of statitics to use would be nice. Am i advocating that we should have F2/4 in 1st planeset? Not really - so you have summarised your own post perfectly I have not pointed out to your stats. Yes, i'm still learning things. I'm flying axis on current map and will switch to other side as soon as this one is finished. Just checking my stats for previous seson you can see that k/h is in tempest and spread is actually quite even between axis/allies planes. My almost most played plane was P-51. With k.d = 3.22 and k/h = 2.67 - i'm actually quite happy with it. Most new players go for ease-of-operation vs. which side is losing. Having every important system be automated is very new-player friendly. In this quarter, the overall difference in ALL categories is literally ~52% vs. ~48%. That can be flipped at any time. If you want to know how actual plane performance is calculated, look at the info card specifications given by the developers. Make a chart. Figure it out. As far as ammo load goes, simply knowing how to count solves that. Were the F2 and F4 present IRL at the time the I-16 were represented? If yes, then I don't care. Let them fly. How is it the E7 which has EVERY advantage, except roll rate, less effective than the I-16? Pardon me, I'll correct myself. In very specific situations and for a very short time (a matter of a few seconds), the I-16 wins in climb too. If you've not looked at my stats, how do you know what side's planes I fly online? Are you psychic? If the spread between Axis and Allies, in your words, "is quite even" then why are you complaining? Would it be "more even" if Allies failed to increase the performance of their planes as the war went on and lost competitiveness? Perhaps the Germans should have replaced their 109s with a new (not 109) model instead of adding more and more bloat to a frame that increasingly traded handling performance for speed? I'm not saying that German fighter planes are full-on easy mode but, they have more than enough tools available to chalk most losses up to pilot error or lack of awareness. Perhaps what they really needed was a large view port to the low-6 blind spot and pilots that were able to exploit the fact that they could simply run away from almost anything the Allies had. BTW, the La-5fn was almost identical (but still somewhat lesser) to any Fw-190 it historically went up against. If fights between equally skilled pilots that started with no clear advantage for either, it was as close to 50/50 as possible. Pray that we don't get the La-7 one day. The Luftwhining would be epic.
Amyel Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 20 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: If you want to know how actual plane performance is calculated, look at the info card specifications given by the developers. Make a chart. Figure it out. But you do understand that there must be some kind of a consesus what is considered an advantage in plane? As it might be different things for everyone. So we can make charts but unless we specify the conditions it's just a moot point. I can only say that more allied planes have better statistics - it might be just player skills as you said, or not - and considering human behaviour they fly planes that are easier to control or provide easier way to aerial victory. 24 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: If you've not looked at my stats, how do you know what side's planes I fly online? Are you psychic? Never seen you or any of your squadron to fly other side, so it was a safe bet to assume the conclusion. 24 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: If the spread between Axis and Allies, in your words, "is quite even" In MY case and MY case only. Overall statistics for server shows that some planes are easier to get more victories (which get us back to thing mentioned above). 25 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Pray that we don't get the La-7 one day. Perhaps they will get Ta or D12/D13 with Jumo engine? There's also another problem here - in later planesets Germans have to fight Russians and UK/US at the same time. Depending on the enemy i think they could/would have applied slightly different tactic when dog fighting. Today we have east front map and i'm quite sure that US did not lend leased too many P38/51s
BubiHUN Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 9 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: the whole "Allies are OP by default" argument is just stupidity. You literally spent the last year crying about the opposite.
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said: You literally spent the last year crying about the opposite. Do refresh my memory.
LLv34_Temuri Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 33 minutes ago, Enigma89 said: Explanation of the new mechanic and how to use it. Aaand, I changed all the RRR times to one minute, and the respawn time of the RRR truck to 30 minutes. Also, Mig-3 will be available up to planeset 5. Need to update the planeset picture some time in near future.
Enigma89 Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, LLv34_Temuri said: Aaand, I changed all the RRR times to one minute, and the respawn time of the RRR truck to 30 minutes. Also, Mig-3 will be available up to planeset 5. Need to update the planeset picture some time in near future. Any chance the hurricane can be available for later tiers? Based on the new stat systems, it's pretty clear that people like to fly it. Edited May 1, 2021 by Enigma89 2
=Elite=BlitzPuppet Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 I've been playing IL2 online for over a decade now and can honestly say I've never seen more screams for "balance" than on this iteration's multiplayer servers. The complaining is just unreal. Now it may have been because of the vast amount of planes to choose from in the final modded 1946 version, but I remember multiplayer maps of P51s, P47s, P38s, and Spitfires going up against ME163s, DO-335s, and 262s attacking huge AI B17 formations. No one complained, they just played the map that focused on whatever historical theater the map was built around and had fun. People will fly what they want to and what they will have fun with, and to a point we should let them as long as it matches the theater/battle the map designer built the mission around. Unfortunately this iteration of IL2 doesn't have the breadth of variation that 1946 did, but maybe one day it will.
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 16 hours ago, Amyel said: But you do understand that there must be some kind of a consesus what is considered an advantage in plane? As it might be different things for everyone. So we can make charts but unless we specify the conditions it's just a moot point. I can only say that more allied planes have better statistics - it might be just player skills as you said, or not - and considering human behaviour they fly planes that are easier to control or provide easier way to aerial victory. The only thing remotely hard to control about 109s is taxiing off the spawn point and onto the runway. Filter by "Plane Lethality" and Allied planes hold only the 2nd, 8th and 9th place out of 10. That 7, yes *****7******, big freaking flashing lights on 7, Axis plane types that are combined putting out much more work than the 3 Allied combined. To be more specific only 1 out of the top 5 most-lethal planes on the list is Allied. If you want to cherry-pick stats, then so can I. 17 hours ago, Amyel said: Never seen you or any of your squadron to fly other side, so it was a safe bet to assume the conclusion. Only on Finnish do I stick with Red and that's because my squad agrees to do so but, only on Finnish server. I could be Batman on any other server and you wouldn't have a clue. 17 hours ago, Amyel said: In MY case and MY case only. Overall statistics for server shows that some planes are easier to get more victories (which get us back to thing mentioned above). Well, I guess we can't all be special like you. And again,,,, 7 out of 10 and 4 out of the top 5 most lethal planes are German. 17 hours ago, Amyel said: Perhaps they will get Ta or D12/D13 with Jumo engine? Sure, I'd gladly buy a Ta-152 or the Fw190 high altitude variants - for single player and the sake of owning them. Then I'd laugh in multiplayer as they flew around at 8km with nothing to do or got their asses handed to them down low. 17 hours ago, Amyel said: There's also another problem here - in later planesets Germans have to fight Russians and UK/US at the same time. Depending on the enemy i think they could/would have applied slightly different tactic when dog fighting. Today we have east front map and i'm quite sure that US did not lend leased too many P38/51s Sure I'd be all for strict East, West separation - as soon as the Russians get their transport plane models, heavy bomber models and fighter models not yet in-game that apply to each map and time frame. At the very least, you gotta admit, the Li-2 is sorely needed. Then, we can eliminate any German plane models that weren't available (or at all) in any significant numbers at Moscow, Stalingrad, Kuban or Veleki Luki during the time these battles happened. 33 minutes ago, =Elite=BlitzPuppet said: I've been playing IL2 online for over a decade now and can honestly say I've never seen more screams for "balance" than on this iteration's multiplayer servers. The complaining is just unreal. Now it may have been because of the vast amount of planes to choose from in the final modded 1946 version, but I remember multiplayer maps of P51s, P47s, P38s, and Spitfires going up against ME163s, DO-335s, and 262s attacking huge AI B17 formations. No one complained, they just played the map that focused on whatever historical theater the map was built around and had fun. People will fly what they want to and what they will have fun with, and to a point we should let them as long as it matches the theater/battle the map designer built the mission around. Exactly. But, some people's children need the "just right" mixture of Thunder in their War. I don't give a damn about whether one side or the other historically had the OP machines in RL. I agree, if it belongs in the theater and the time frame of the battle, let it fly. I do care about the models in-game being accurate or inaccurate and/or over/underperforming. That said, even though I disagree with and am pretty roughly critical, of some of the developer's decisions concerning some planes' performance, I still accept that they are doing the best they can with what they've learned and how they apply it. 1
Amyel Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 36 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: If you want to cherry-pick stats, then so can I. At least pick one that will prove your point - plane lethality only shows that armament is more deadly on axis side. But if you are not able to get target in your cross aim, you can have death ray and still not achieve victory. 40 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: And again,,,, 7 out of 10 and 4 out of the top 5 most lethal planes are German. Yet again - it only shows that if you get someone in the crossaim there's bigger chance they will go down. Oddly enough top allied planes are also those with 20mm cannons. 43 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: flew around at 8km D13 was set for low altitude with first stage charge to be optimal at 2600m. 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Russians get their transport plane models, heavy bomber models and fighter models not yet in-game that apply to each map and time frame. At the very least, you gotta admit, the Li-2 is sorely needed. That would be fantastic - who could say no to more planes? 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: I agree, if it belongs in the theater and the time frame of the battle, let it fly. Yes - as very tempting idea. No(t sure) - as (hypothetically) that might stack up players on one side that might seem to be easier (be it either due to numbers or planes) As someone stated, admins decided to make server plane performance balanced, so I guess that would be fair description of them then: 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: But, some people's children need the "just right" mixture of Thunder in their War. Anyway, I guess, us players, can only suggest things, but at the same time we can discuss things and point out pros and cons to any topic.
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Amyel said: But if you are not able to get target in your cross aim, you can have death ray and still not achieve victory. Hence, why overall ~52% to ~48% in all categories favoring red - except in flight hours. It looks to me that you are advocating for the removal of planes that are hard to hit or hard to get away from. That's a skill issue not a plane(s) performance issue. Point. Set. Match. Better luck next time. Edited May 1, 2021 by 69th_Mobile_BBQ
Amyel Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 14 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: t looks to me that you are advocating for the removal of planes that are hard to hit. That's a skill issue not a plane(s) performance issue. This is your take on it? Wow So Me262 is also fine and allied pilots just suck not being able to shoot it down?
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Amyel said: This is your take on it? Wow So Me262 is also fine and allied pilots just suck not being able to shoot it down? Do you now advocate for the removal of the 262?
Amyel Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 Why should I? Either way 1. you say balance is achieved and Me262 is absolutely fine and should not be even limited as everything is up to pilot skills and all of other planes should be left as they are or 2. Me262 actually might be hard to get down and needs to be limited. But then all those allied planes that are statistically performing better should be limited too for a sake of balance. Which one is it in your opinion? I'll be fine with any of them.
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 3. The 262 has no counterpart and nothing can achieve parity with it. Every Allied propeller plane has an Axis propeller plane that can equal or better it - when used properly. Your analogy is invalid.
Amyel Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 (edited) Mate, we are talking performance - no matter how the plane is powered. Is Me 262 fine and we go for option 1 or no, and we can go for option 2? Edited May 1, 2021 by Amyel
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, Amyel said: Mate, we are talking performance - no matter how the plane is powered. Is Me 262 fine and we go for option 1 or no, and we can go for option 2? Buddy, Pal, Performance-wise the 262 is in a class of it's own. All other Axis planes either equal or exceed their contemporaries in performance. But, I thought those factors were irrelevant to you. Again, I implore you, make a chart. Figure it out.
Amyel Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 14 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Performance-wise the 262 is in a class of it's own. Nah, allied pilot just do not have skills to get it down - your own opinion. Balance on the server is supposed to be by plane performance. I do not need a chart - we are already provided with statistics from the server. If plane has better k/d, k/h exceeding results of others - it means it is performing better. Just funny to see this (looking at said statistics) 35 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Axis planes either equal or exceed their contemporaries in performance when On 4/30/2021 at 8:38 PM, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Besides, if you can't provide actual DATA that shows each aircraft's performance + weaponry and compares advantages to disadvantages, the whole "Allies Axis are OP by default" argument is just stupidity. I am in favour of limiting - slightly - availability of some planes at specific planeset only. This is just my opinion - i assume admins do want to make server popular and will get to their own conclusions. But forum is for users to vocal their opinions and/or propositions - silly or not, as long as they might bring something to make server better for players.
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, Amyel said: when Make a chart. Figure it out. The scientifically measured data (and the context/conditions under which it was collected) is all available with research. You obviously know how to write. Perhaps you should bother taking the time to read as well.
Amyel Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 Wow again so you say i need to make a chart as saying allied planes are OP is stupidity and yet you want me to go and make a chart when 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Axis planes either equal or exceed their contemporaries in performance. Reading is one thing, reading with comprehension - it's a different story.
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 8 minutes ago, Amyel said: Wow again so you say i need to make a chart as saying allied planes are OP is stupidity and yet you want me to go and make a chart when Reading is one thing, reading with comprehension - it's a different story. Reframe it how you like. I'm not going to do your research for you. You keep saying that there is nothing that Axis planes do better or equally on any aspect when the fact is that they often were only equaled or surpassed by Allied planes on 1 or 2 points out of many, and by very thin margins. That's historical FACT. Once, again, you don't care about performance. You care that it doesn't suit you when the margins to parity get that thin. I'm not the one arguing for "balance" and oddly enough, neither are you. The difference is that I'm not arguing for the scales to be weighted for my preferred side, just that we're not here to be a baby seals to be clubbed in your nazibational fantasies. If both sides were Identical and the side that wasn't yours was winning, you'd still scream that there was something OP about the other side that needed to be restricted. How about this: The battle is won on the ground - and not necessarily by amount of items destroyed but, by destroying the correct items at the correct times. It's why in the previous quarter, destroyed ground targets were nearly identical, yet Allies kept decisively winning. Axis is getting their ass kicked due to poor overall strategy and lack of coordination with those pilots who do fly bombers. That's something I can guarantee you is not as much of a deficiency on the Red side.
Amyel Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Reframe it how you like. No need for me to do it - you did that for me. 4 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: I'm not going to do your research for you. Well, of course not. See my post above. 5 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: You keep saying that there is nothing that Axis planes do better or equally on any aspect when the fact is that they often were only equaled or surpassed by Allied planes on 1 or 2 points out of many, and by very thin margins. That's historical FACT. Then why did you say IF we get other russian planes (like La-7) there will be more whine on axis side? They were not equal or better? As HISTORICAL fact goes: Yak-3: 16th July 1944, 18 Yak-3s faced 24 German fighters. As a result of the clash, the Soviets lost just one machine, while 15 enemy aircraft were shot down La-7: claimed the first “jet kill” as well. In February 1945, Soviet ace Ivan Kozhedub shot down a German Me-262 That's just pointers - you can search more on your own. 11 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: I'm not the one arguing for "balance" That's for sure - you are happy with status quo considering that presented options could potentially hurt side you are fly exlusively . 12 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: If both sides were Identical and the side that wasn't yours was winning, you'd still scream that there was something OP about the other side I (unlike you) fly both side on this server. And every other (populated) server out there have limits/restrictions for planes. 15 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: The battle is won on the ground Agree, but then why are you having problem with planes being balanced? Make it bit more challenging, more interesting, unless you opt in for easy ride only? Are tanks already balanced by limits on axis side? You have no problems here as it, yet again, favours your side?
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, Amyel said: No need for me to do it - you did that for me. Well, of course not. See my post above. Then why did you say IF we get other russian planes (like La-7) there will be more whine on axis side? They were not equal or better? As HISTORICAL fact goes: Yak-3: 16th July 1944, 18 Yak-3s faced 24 German fighters. As a result of the clash, the Soviets lost just one machine, while 15 enemy aircraft were shot down La-7: claimed the first “jet kill” as well. In February 1945, Soviet ace Ivan Kozhedub shot down a German Me-262 That's just pointers - you can search more on your own. That's for sure - you are happy with status quo considering that presented options could potentially hurt side you are fly exlusively . I (unlike you) fly both side on this server. And every other (populated) server out there have limits/restrictions for planes. Agree, but then why are you having problem with planes being balanced? Make it bit more challenging, more interesting, unless you opt in for easy ride only? Are tanks already balanced by limits on axis side? You have no problems here as it, yet again, favours your side? Equal is all it takes for lufties to whine. Once again, things are as close to parity as they're going to get and that's what I want preserved. You are arguing for Allies to be nerfed. If you want to take the Tempest away, how about we take away ANY plane with a 850kph or more critical dive speed... oh....wait. I mean what else should we limit? Climb rates? Zoom climb off the deck? Max straight line speed? Overall average cruising speed? Turn rates? Acceleration? Stability near stall speed? Ammo load? Ordinance versatility and loadout? Explosive power of HE shells? Muzzle velocity of guns? Thrust-to-weight ratio? ....oh.....wait. You seem to assume that I never fly Axis planes to learn what they can and can't do. Sure my criteria will eliminate SOME Allied planes but, Axis won't even have a fighter force. By 1944, most Yak-3 pilots were probably veterans, not so much for Germans who were putting any warm body that could fly the planes into them - with some veterans sprinkled in. Yak-7 vs. 262 - I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it was either a lucky head-on shot or during the 262 taking off, landing or slowing down for landing - just like almost EVERY OTHER of the rare 262 kills that occurred. How about you click that little tab at the top of the stats page that says "OVERALL"? If it was purely about numbers, Axis would be winning in all categories. Wings of Liberty isn't anywhere near the level of Finnish. Stop it. Get help. German tanks are limited because overwhelming numbers on the Allied side were the deciding factor in tank v tank combat. It's simply not possible on a server that has limited slots and airplanes too. Why are you not willing to admit that not only does Axis fail to escort it's bombers, it fails to intercept bombers BEFORE they attack. Axis also fails to READ THE FREAKING MAP and understand what's best to attack during any given mission period. 1
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 22 minutes ago, GOA_KARAYA_CRI*VR* said: Ok. You are wise - and a great rival when you fly Blue, great help when you fly Red - I'll leave it alone from now on. 1
Amyel Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: OVERALL Ok, i have looked at overall tab. And it's a bit of surprise to see that. My only thought would be - how did the stats look before Battle of Bodenplatte was released? Was there a big shift? And not splitting hair in four but 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: If it was purely about numbers, Axis would be winning in all categories. Axis actually ARE winning in all categories 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: I mean what else should we limit? Hmm tempest might not be best argument here - comparing those stats to K4 or D9 it's winning in most categories. 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: I'm going to go out on a limb La-7 vs 262 - That was actually prolonged dogfight. So what limb should i pick? 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Wings of Liberty isn't anywhere near the level of Finnish. I have not talked abot WOL specifically - all of populated servers have some kind of a limit. But agree on Finnish being way better (developed etc.) 1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: Axis also fails to READ THE FREAKING MAP and understand what's best to attack during any given mission period. There are couple of groups/squadrons doing coordinated bombings, but it's less than on the other side. I'm not afraid to say i'm wrong when presented some good arguments (not "something" is stupidity!) To me, it doesn't FEEL balanced, perhaps because there's almost never any cover for ground attackers. Many fighters just cruise at high altitude - i understand that technically they were build for that (unlike the russian ones), but many of them are not diving down to help as if afraid of being jumped on by enemy at any given moment. Even if sometimes axis side has more players it feels empty. I guess that also might be a factor, as i have to admit, that for last couple of days whenever i start a dogfight, within minutes i'm completely outnumbered (and flying the other side same conlusion stays - as there's more help on allied side). That said, i still would like to see people flying all sort of planes, not just spamming whatever seems to be a flavour of a planeset. - after all not every pilot/squadron has been given best planes. Edited May 2, 2021 by Amyel
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Amyel said: Ok, i have looked at overall tab. And it's a bit of surprise to see that. My only thought would be - how did the stats look before Battle of Bodenplatte was released? Was there a big shift? I would venture that Allies' outlook improved. Before BoBp, when the La5-Fn was the Allies' big dog, all other Allies' fighters bordered on being, or clearly were, outclassed by the most up-to-date Axis fighters. 5 hours ago, Amyel said: And not splitting hair in four but Axis actually ARE winning in all categories True. But, strategically, the battles keep going Allies. 5 hours ago, Amyel said: Hmm tempest might not be best argument here - comparing those stats to K4 or D9 it's winning in most categories. I would chalk that up to the K4 and D9 rarely having the opportunity to fight to their strong points, as high-alt on the Russian front isn't much of a thing game-wise. Many pilots that fly it also seem to target-fixate and don't stick to boom-and-zoom. Up high, turn-and-burn is MUCH more forgiving (than below 4km) for later model 109s and the D9. 5 hours ago, Amyel said: La-7 vs 262 - That was actually prolonged dogfight. So what limb should i pick? That is surprising, no doubt lessons learned from I-153 and I-16 vs. 109E. I will give it that, with good situational awareness, it is relatively easy to spoil a 262 attack. After repeated spoiled attacks, it just might be possible to frustrate the 262 pilot into making mistakes. 5 hours ago, Amyel said: I have not talked abot WOL specifically - all of populated servers have some kind of a limit. But agree on Finnish being way better (developed etc.) If I recall correctly, the other big servers also structure their missions based on historical events or right down to the month the battle is representing. If the battle was in April and a mod wasn't available until June. it's locked. That's a bit different than is feasible for the style of play Finnish offers. That said, some things are locked for planeset X then unlocked when planeset Y follows. Not many things but, some. Some things are also locked depending on whether a front airfield or rear airfield is selected to spawn. 5 hours ago, Amyel said: There are couple of groups/squadrons doing coordinated bombings, but it's less than on the other side. I'll concede that, as it seems to me, workload and learning curve of Axis bombers and attackers (Hs-129 Ju87, Ju88, He-111) is higher and possibly discouraging to newer players. Most pilots I've noticed that do well with them are the type of player I would consider "specialist" - as in they like it enough to main with their chosen plane pretty much exclusively. 110's on the other hand, I'm 50/50 on. In some ways they seem "uber", in other ways, they remind me of the guy who obviously works-out only his arms or legs but, not both. 5 hours ago, Amyel said: I'm not afraid to say i'm wrong when presented some good arguments (not "something" is stupidity!) Point taken. 5 hours ago, Amyel said: To me, it doesn't FEEL balanced, perhaps because there's almost never any cover for ground attackers. That's been a sore point among Axis players since pretty much the beginning of the BoX series, it seems. I'm not sure the reason why but, from what I can gather, Axis players are more widely prone to either work in close communication (voice chat) with each other or go strongly towards "solo yolo". For Allies, even the "solo yolos" will have a higher tendency to at least yield some of their time towards teamwork sorties. I count myself as an example of that, to be honest. 5 hours ago, Amyel said: I guess that also might be a factor, as i have to admit, that for last couple of days whenever i start a dogfight, within minutes i'm completely outnumbered (and flying the other side same conlusion stays - as there's more help on allied side). That pendulum definitely swings both ways. One thing to remember: The more lacking in critical performance areas a plane is - even if it has alot of ability in a turning fight - the better off you are sticking to boom-and-zoom. (here's lookin at you, Yak-1.69) If you don't go into a fight with close, coordinated back-up, or get locked into a turn fight then it's most likely any teammates that are aware of your situation are sizing-up whether or not you can be used as bait for a clean attack of their own or if you're a goner. That applies whether or not you survive or die before they can pull off their attack. If they assess they cannot succeed with their own attack, then their chances of attempting a rescue are very low. That also applies to BOTH sides. Also remember, even if (in reality) there is just one of them, in your mind, there should always be at least two of them. Try to fly accordingly. 5 hours ago, Amyel said: That said, i still would like to see people flying all sort of planes, not just spamming whatever seems to be a flavour of a planeset. - after all not every pilot/squadron has been given best planes. I think that the more you get used to things, you'll find that a fairly great number of players prefer the handgun or combat shotgun over the BFG-9000. Granted, there will always be players that stick with using the biggest available hammer to hit the smallest nail but, it's not everybody. Even if the Me-262 was unlimited, I'd venture that there would be more people that would still rather stick with their (for example) trusty Fw-190 A3 or A5 or their Bf-109 F or G models than fly the Me-262. Yes, they might take an occasional sortie with it for fun but, there would be a much smaller number that would "main" with it. I'm actually ok with that. Still, that damned 262 is still a flamethrower vs. an origami swan compared to the other planes! ? Edited May 2, 2021 by 69th_Mobile_BBQ
72AG_Atochi Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 Как статистика работает? С зенитки попадал по пепелацу, а в стате ничего не отображается. Сбил один пепелац и не понятно кого!
Amyel Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 @69th_Mobile_BBQ Just need to pour tiny bit more lighter fluid into barbeque When you say axis do not intercept bombers - can it (yet again) be due to a fact that they are fighting both fronts at the same time? (I think) On west front those bombers were flying high alt, making them easier to spot (ekhm radar too) and then possibly intercept on the way. On east front bombers might have been doing (very) low alt runs, and even though axis planes would have been staying high - with no high alt counterparts (P-51, P-38, Tempests) - meaning way lesser chances to be jumped on/bounced by the enemy - they could be more eager to dive and attack? Also - can someone explain to me smokes at frontlines? I usually can see up to 3 big fires/smokes. I watched Enigma's video and it mentions big fire as a help to locate frontline, but why 3 fires? They can be very afar from each others so is there anything special about the side ones? Like showing the curve of a frontline etc.? Then i can see small red/blue smokes - and i think those are paratroopers drop points? But then i can see some grey smokes (usually in pack of 4) - bigger that para smokes and the location seems to be random? Once i could see them in a midlle of a lake. What are they (purpose)? OK, one more - i took D9 for a spin and noticed some markings next to speedometer (highlights for 2,3,5,7 and 9 k). Is this something important or just cockpit detail with not much effect in game?
LLv34_Temuri Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 19 hours ago, Enigma89 said: Any chance the hurricane can be available for later tiers? Based on the new stat systems, it's pretty clear that people like to fly it. Can do.
BubiHUN Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 3 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said: I would venture that Allies' outlook improved. Before BoBp, when the La5-Fn was the Allies' big dog, all other Allies' fighters bordered on being, or clearly were, outclassed by the most up-to-date Axis fighters. True. But, strategically, the battles keep going Allies. I would chalk that up to the K4 and D9 rarely having the opportunity to fight to their strong points, as high-alt on the Russian front isn't much of a thing game-wise. Many pilots that fly it also seem to target-fixate and don't stick to boom-and-zoom. Up high, turn-and-burn is MUCH more forgiving (than below 4km) for later model 109s and the D9. That is surprising, no doubt lessons learned from I-153 and I-16 vs. 109E. I will give it that, with good situational awareness, it is relatively easy to spoil a 262 attack. After repeated spoiled attacks, it just might be possible to frustrate the 262 pilot into making mistakes. If I recall correctly, the other big servers also structure their missions based on historical events or right down to the month the battle is representing. If the battle was in April and a mod wasn't available until June. it's locked. That's a bit different than is feasible for the style of play Finnish offers. That said, some things are locked for planeset X then unlocked when planeset Y follows. Not many things but, some. Some things are also locked depending on whether a front airfield or rear airfield is selected to spawn. I'll concede that, as it seems to me, workload and learning curve of Axis bombers and attackers (Hs-129 Ju87, Ju88, He-111) is higher and possibly discouraging to newer players. Most pilots I've noticed that do well with them are the type of player I would consider "specialist" - as in they like it enough to main with their chosen plane pretty much exclusively. 110's on the other hand, I'm 50/50 on. In some ways they seem "uber", in other ways, they remind me of the guy who obviously works-out only his arms or legs but, not both. Point taken. That's been a sore point among Axis players since pretty much the beginning of the BoX series, it seems. I'm not sure the reason why but, from what I can gather, Axis players are more widely prone to either work in close communication (voice chat) with each other or go strongly towards "solo yolo". For Allies, even the "solo yolos" will have a higher tendency to at least yield some of their time towards teamwork sorties. I count myself as an example of that, to be honest. That pendulum definitely swings both ways. One thing to remember: The more lacking in critical performance areas a plane is - even if it has alot of ability in a turning fight - the better off you are sticking to boom-and-zoom. (here's lookin at you, Yak-1.69) If you don't go into a fight with close, coordinated back-up, or get locked into a turn fight then it's most likely any teammates that are aware of your situation are sizing-up whether or not you can be used as bait for a clean attack of their own or if you're a goner. That applies whether or not you survive or die before they can pull off their attack. If they assess they cannot succeed with their own attack, then their chances of attempting a rescue are very low. That also applies to BOTH sides. Also remember, even if (in reality) there is just one of them, in your mind, there should always be at least two of them. Try to fly accordingly. I think that the more you get used to things, you'll find that a fairly great number of players prefer the handgun or combat shotgun over the BFG-9000. Granted, there will always be players that stick with using the biggest available hammer to hit the smallest nail but, it's not everybody. Even if the Me-262 was unlimited, I'd venture that there would be more people that would still rather stick with their (for example) trusty Fw-190 A3 or A5 or their Bf-109 F or G models than fly the Me-262. Yes, they might take an occasional sortie with it for fun but, there would be a much smaller number that would "main" with it. I'm actually ok with that. Still, that damned 262 is still a flamethrower vs. an origami swan compared to the other planes! ? I supose you are missing the biggest point - on most airfields 262s cant take off, not even on rheinland map. What is the greatest limitation to that jet, than not being able to take off? Having them available is good as it is now imo, not talking about the front airfields are mostly being vulched and you can imagine what chances you have with the longest start-up plane in the game. The bigger problem is the broken Spitfire flightmodel wich allows to to hover like a helicopter while still aiming accurately with full flaps and wheels down.
UFO* Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 8 hours ago, 72AGk_Atochi said: Как статистика работает? С зенитки попадал по пепелацу, а в стате ничего не отображается. Сбил один пепелац и не понятно кого! Наверное потому что зена не самолет и не танк , куда писать стату .. P.S. Ты думаешь они поймут что такое пепелац ? )
FTC_Riksen Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 8 minutes ago, UFO* said: Наверное потому что зена не самолет и не танк , куда писать стату .. P.S. Ты думаешь они поймут что такое пепелац ? ) Wrong forum. You are probably looking for this one here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/14511-finnish-virtualpilots-and-loose-deuce-dynamic-war/ But since this is not the first time you do this, I think, perhaps, you think it is some sort of our obligation to understand you.
=Elite=BlitzPuppet Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 (edited) The way I feel is basically that limiting vehicles based on supply (however low that is that then can be resupplied, ) is totally awesome. Setting a tiny hard limit on vehicles or even removing them completely when they should be there (assuming we're trying to recreate period correct aircraft load-outs or recreating a battle) for the sake of balance is really lame. I know there is concern that the possibility of large numbers of 262s may break the game. Let's be real here, there are only in the last planeset, and planesets reset every 48(?) hrs. That realistically is NOT going to change the outcome of the war for the blue side, and I honestly think reds would enjoy shooting down more 262s in all honesty ?. If 48 hrs is too much then maybe make a 10th planeset that only lasts for 1 day that has unlimited (limited but resuppliable by supply aircraft) at the rearmost airfields. Want to make it even harder for noobs to become instant aces in the 262? Take away the fuel system upgrade and watch them struggle with engine fires...if they're even able to start the engine and get up into the air without issue. Let people play what they want. Berloga allows this and I rarely see a large number of people flying the 262 in the late war section. Edited May 2, 2021 by =Elite=BlitzPuppet Additions
69th_Mobile_BBQ Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 7 hours ago, Amyel said: @69th_Mobile_BBQ Just need to pour tiny bit more lighter fluid into barbeque When you say axis do not intercept bombers - can it (yet again) be due to a fact that they are fighting both fronts at the same time? (I think) On west front those bombers were flying high alt, making them easier to spot (ekhm radar too) and then possibly intercept on the way. On east front bombers might have been doing (very) low alt runs, and even though axis planes would have been staying high - with no high alt counterparts (P-51, P-38, Tempests) - meaning way lesser chances to be jumped on/bounced by the enemy - they could be more eager to dive and attack? Also - can someone explain to me smokes at frontlines? I usually can see up to 3 big fires/smokes. I watched Enigma's video and it mentions big fire as a help to locate frontline, but why 3 fires? They can be very afar from each others so is there anything special about the side ones? Like showing the curve of a frontline etc.? Then i can see small red/blue smokes - and i think those are paratroopers drop points? But then i can see some grey smokes (usually in pack of 4) - bigger that para smokes and the location seems to be random? Once i could see them in a midlle of a lake. What are they (purpose)? OK, one more - i took D9 for a spin and noticed some markings next to speedometer (highlights for 2,3,5,7 and 9 k). Is this something important or just cockpit detail with not much effect in game? I was talking in-game. TBH, I think most Axis fighter pilots care more about personal score than winning the map as a team. Why fly patrols attempting to cut off the bomber from getting to target when you can use his bomb explosions as a reference point to more-easily spot him? it seems most people dive bomb - so why attack when they have altitude and can make evasive maneuvers when you can wait and catch them low without anymore altitude to trade for energy? 6 hours ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said: 1) I supose you are missing the biggest point - on most airfields 262s cant take off, not even on rheinland map. What is the greatest limitation to that jet, than not being able to take off? Having them available is good as it is now imo, not talking about the front airfields are mostly being vulched and you can imagine what chances you have with the longest start-up plane in the game. 2) The bigger problem is the broken Spitfire flightmodel wich allows to to hover like a helicopter while still aiming accurately with full flaps and wheels down. 1) I have ALWAYS said that I had no problems with there being 262 "unicorns" on the map, just that overwhelming numbers would break the gameplay. If it's true that the amount of viable airfields makes 262 numbers limitation a self-regulating system with no need for mission builder intervention then, hey! Problem solved! Let it fly! 2) There's multiple threads out there detailing and discussing flight models with broken aspects and flight model exploits. Find one of those and participate in the discussion there, please.
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