Tactical Air War

[RedKestrel]

Just now, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Won't being limited to just a plane type hurt the players that like to do both jobs?

Until we see the plane set it's hard to say. Depending on how it works I think you might end up with a tiny fraction of ground attackers and hordes of fighter pilots (worse than usual, anyway), since guys who fly half/half will probably go fighter only so they don't miss out on that bit. I guess in serious squads this might even out but for the dirty casuals it becomes even less viable to form up in ad-hoc groups if you have less flexibility in what you can choose to fly.

If everyone's flying fighters then the bombers are dealing with more enemies. And since it looks like good bombers won't be available out of the gate, bomber pilots could be flying less survivable aircraft. Worst case scenario, it's a death spiral: fewer attackers with worse aircraft get killed all the time by hoards of pilots, bomber pilots stop flying or run out of lives, leaving fewer attackers with worse aircraft... 

I'm withholding judgement until us plebs get some info on how this all works - it could very well be it's all worked out. It all seems tailored more for squads even more than usual, though.

[FTC_daHeld]

On 3/23/2021 at 9:23 AM, Cpt_Siddy said:

Dude, we got like less than 10 planes/side that fit the time periods, and some of them, like mig-3 was made in minuscule quantities. 

Also, many models we got now were series productions that are late to mid runs. There is huge difference from first series release to some mid point serials. 

There is no way you can go history nerd with what we got, you just improvise and see what fit what. 

What are you talking about?

There were 3120 MiG-3s built (including 100 very similar MiG-1s). That's far from minuscule numbers. For comparison, there were 3405 Bf 109Es built of all marks (E-1 to E-8), and no one would call this minuscule either...

 

During the Moscow campaign, the MiG-3 was the most abundant modern fighter (MiG-3, LaGG-3, Yak-1) used by the Soviets. Between September 20th and December 5th, 1941, the JG 51 alone claimed almost 110 MiG-3s shot down, about three times as many as all the other fighters combined (actually they claimed them as I-18 or I-61 due to an error of the German Intelligence Agencies). So there had to be lots of them present.

[FTC_DerSheriff]

we will obviously try it, but so far it doesnt sound too stellar and sounds like another hurdle. we will see.

[FTC_Nerfection]

It certainly seems strange to impose a limit like this on players, when as far as I know no-one's ever had a problem with players flying both fighters and bombers, and the pilot preference options were working fine.

What is the supposed upside of this? I can't think of any. Perhaps pilots will have to pick 1 airfield per map too, and that'll be the only one they're allowed to take off from...

[E69_geramos109]

10 hours ago, ACG_DerSheriff said:

Wanna tell us what the topic of your semi sikrit meeting was? or is that also not meant to be released to the mere peasants which did not attend this meeting?

 

It was not semi sikrit. Was anounced here and any representant of your squad could atend it.

 

Thank you for the work you are doing @=LG=Blakhart and Taw guys. Some of our members are already suporting with some donations after the news so I hope the Taw future will stay safe.

Edited April 2, 2021 by E69_geramos109

[FTC_DerSheriff]

17 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

It was not semi sikrit. Was anounced here and any representant of your squad could atend it.

 

Thank you for the work you are doing @=LG=Blakhart and Taw guys. Some of our members are already suporting with some donations after the news so I hope the Taw future will stay safe.

Well the results of that meeting are still a mystery for the most part. in that sense semi sikrit. I see no post of the results.

[E69_geramos109]

32 minutes ago, ACG_DerSheriff said:

Well the results of that meeting are still a mystery for the most part. in that sense semi sikrit. I see no post of the results.

This is because the meeting was as well to share with us a mesage to spray it into the squads. Was not just info about the future changes so I inderstand they wanted more personal contact with us rather than just posting the info with the changes, planeset etc. 

I guess they will post those changes soon or later so everyone can understand how the new TAW is going to work. 

[JG5_Schuck]

Look,

The LG guys (and others) are trying something new, and must be applauded for that.

Instead of the usual dogfight server.

No other server has this sort of pilot career set up.

Lets just give it a go and see what happens.

They are reasonable people, and so will listen to suggestions on ways to improve it.

But don't just moan before it even begins......

Come up with viable alternatives and use evidence to support it.

And if you do gripe.... at least take part in the campaigns in the first place!!

 

 

[FTC_DerSheriff]

I like that they change stuff. But I would like to know what it is, cause I could not make it to the meeting. I only reacted to the information provided. I also said that we are going to try it.

I applaud when I can understand the changes.
 

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

Do we have to have a full blown campaign to test changes? I feel like doing 1-2 maps would be more than enough to get an impression on things and to be able to reevaluate.

[FTC_HK]

Tldr is:

 

Running low on funds, please donate. 

 

Registration for one side closes if unbalanced. Opens a week before campaign start.

 

New preliminary planeset (Minor changes may be made): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B-vVf8RBXn61zsArjosn3dpIZ_4nDBjYemJ-C-OryV8/edit#gid=0

 

CM's are replaced with CP's gained for destroying stuff, sortie time has no influence on this. Transports are no longer a thing.

 

Campaign starts whenever its done.

 

Other than that wasn't so much to it, Q&A from anyone who had questions.

Edited April 2, 2021 by ACG_HardeKoning

[FTC_DerSheriff]

The planeset is interessting, how are planes earned (still CM?) and how flexible is the player to switch plane types? From Fw 190 to 109, or La-5 to Yak? etc? Freely? locked to one row?

Also: DOPPELBLITZ

Edited April 2, 2021 by ACG_DerSheriff

[=GEMINI=IngegnerTommy]

24 minutes ago, ACG_DerSheriff said:

The planeset is interessting, how are planes earned (still CM?) and how flexible is the player to switch plane types? From Fw 190 to 109, or La-5 to Yak? etc? Freely? locked to one row?

Also: DOPPELBLITZ

 

Locked to one row, to express the “specialisation” of a pilot into a line of aircraft during the war.

 

I think the idea is cool and adds a new layer of realism, I’m sure the LG guys tried it out extensively and it brings something extra to TAW.
 

My concern is only on the EXECUTION of the idea, and only referring to the bomber lines, meaning that having a squadron of 10+ guys with different availability of times makes it nearly impossible to field a squadron of “unlockable” planes (such as JU88 and HE111) and as a consequence we are likely forces to give up bombers as a whole. 
 

I am repeating myself, I know, and I was kinda answered that this was studied to prevent a “Pe2 spam”, but at least looking at blue side I do see an issue. My tips? Skip at least other Stukas (already available as base plane) and make a 1/1 BF110 and then 0/2 bomber, so that they can be unlocked more easily and the fall-back option is a better plane than the Stuka.. and imho this does not automatically means giving more Il2s to allied (which I agree would give an advantage to red). I know that THIS small fix would make all the difference in the world for Gemini squadron and all the other squadrons who enjoy making heavy ground attack sorties in big numbers. 
 

But then again, we trust the process of the devs?

 

[=GEMINI=IngegnerTommy]

3 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

The 110 can carry similar bombload as Pe2 (slightly bigger even with mod), so what You propose is 110 spam xD.

 

If we are to go with the "specialisation" 110s shouldnt be mixed with 88s or 111s.

I really don’t want to engage in a “this advantages the BLUE” or “this advantages the RED” kind of discussion, as I am 100% sure that dev team is aiming at balance as much as possible.

 

My observation is purely addressing the difficulty for a big squadrons to operate with homogeneous planes (due to the unpredictability of life and Il2 sorties) and, as a result, the fact that many will not be able to select of the bomber line as it is structured now. It’s the only concern I’ve got but I’ve said this already 3 times so I’m on the verge of spamming, I will stop repeating it ?

 

I’m also not a person who like to complain unproductively nor somebody who does not like changes per se, I appreciate the tentative of introducing new elements and I look forward to see the other news. 

 

S!

[FTC_Kongoo]

1 minute ago, =GEMINI=IngegnerTommy said:

I really don’t want to engage in a “this advantages the BLUE” or “this advantages the RED” kind of discussion, as I am 100% sure that dev team is aiming at balance as much as possible.

 

My observation is purely addressing the difficulty for a big squadrons to operate with homogeneous planes (due to the unpredictability of life and Il2 sorties) and, as a result, the fact that many will not be able to select of the bomber line as it is structured now. It’s the only concern I’ve got but I’ve said this already 3 times so I’m on the verge of spamming, I will stop repeating it ?

 

I’m also not a person who like to complain unproductively nor somebody who does not like changes per se, I appreciate the tentative of introducing new elements and I look forward to see the other news. 

 

S!

I absolutely agree with you. Those cool raids we did (20+ escort and bombers) will be near impossible. Thos mass raids will be substituted with fighter with bomb raids.

[Carl_infar]

If that's the case and You want to make a raid with same planes,

Nothing is stopping You to make a sortie with 20 ju87s...

 

Anyway the 110s should be removed from bomber lines , they should stay only in zestorer line. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Carl_infar

[FTC_Kongoo]

5 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

If that's the case and You want to make a raid with same planes,

Nothing is stopping You to make a sortie with 20 ju87s...

 

IN this case, there will be no need for stuka.. Which is a shame. because you could just take 109 e7 fighter bomber and raid airfields. The one thing lacking IMO is a need to perform Stuka raids. Also, Stuka raids vs airfield, 95% loss rate

[SV7_Faint]

I cannot see a Fw190-A3 in this planeset... Am i blind or what ?

[=GEMINI=IngegnerTommy]

11 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

If that's the case and You want to make a raid with same planes,

Nothing is stopping You to make a sortie with 20 ju87s...

 

Look, you can go ahead all day putting  weird reacts on my post and launching  non pertinent comments such as this, OR you can try to read what I wrote and understand my point about foreseenable decline of bombers on TAW. It’s up to you, I will not reply anymore as few things are childish as pointless arguing on an Internet forum.

 

@1/SG2_Faint I’ve asked that during the briefing, it’s currently not there as non historical for the event pictures in the current TAW maps, but they’re looking at options (eg. Simulate Leningrad  with a BP map) 

[Cpt_Siddy]

There is still one very important question in the air:

 

When? 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

51 minutes ago, 1/SG2_Faint said:

I cannot see a Fw190-A3 in this planeset... Am i blind or what ?

Germans only fly 109s this time... because maps were tightly limited to an operation/battle with a shorter much tighter timeframe, instead of being "in the area of Moscow" or "in the area of Velikij Luki" or "around Kuban" and an approximate timeframe. I don't think this is appropriate for gameplay and balance.

 

I think historical accuracy is fine in general - but it must be balanced against gameplay and what the game offers in some regards. Historical accuracy of 95% and good gameplay: Anytime. But historical accuracy of 100% and taking out one of the just two main-lines of a faction: I would reconsider that, honestly.


Here is the log from the meeting. First a small summary, second the questions posed by the community members (marked by Q) and Blakhart's answers (marked by A). They are simple transcriptions/quotes.

 

On planeset:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hZYsQa1AceyYcH3hAsekWDu7O462CYmVj-FKjqwa17Y/edit#gid=2092441193
Planeset is severly limited and aimed to be historical. Bf 109 have locked headrests. The early versions of Bf 109 F-4
have 1.3ata. Fw 190 isn't present in the campaign except for mission 8 and 9. 

You have to select a line of aircraft. There are no mixed lines anymore. If you want to fly bombers, you will not
be able to fly fighters. If you fly fighters, you won't be able to fly bombers. 

We decrease the level of AAA, it was too deadly to ground attackers. Their goal is to: Adjust AAA on depots so that
3 bombers can take it on, but they each time want to kill one bomber right away (this is a quote).

Combat Missions is changed to Combat Points. By killing ground targets you get Combat Points so you can fly better
aircrafts. 
 

Q: Can you switch specialisation lines of aircrafts? A: No, you will be locked for the entire campaign in your selected line.
Q: Why does Red side have more aircrafts available? A: This is simulation of war. Red side has advantage, had more aircrafts. Unfortunately
we cannot simulate the lack of the radio on red side and lack of pilot training. But we did what we could to make Red side most attractive.
Q: How do we start raids, will we be locked in bombers if we select bomber line? A: Yes
Q: Availability of special plane? A: Always available.
Q: How to remove headrest? A: You need to gain advanced 109 by getting combat points first. That may be possible.
Q: Will CP payout be different by side? Red GA are much more effective than blue GA. A: No, if you have problem with 
ineffectiveness of German GA, you can switch sides.
Q: Are cargo missions still in? A: Cargo flying won't let you collect points anymore. There is no supply feature anymore.
Q: Does pilot life change? A: No change. Die 3 times you will be banned for 24 hours.
Q: Is something to be done about multi accounts? A: If you find a tool to track and punish, you can be our policeman.
Q: Will there be paratrooper drops for blue side? A: Yes.
Q: Can you switch sides? A: Yes. But if you get reported to make a friendly sight (?) or report anything to opposite side, you will
get banned from TAW.
Q: What happens if you die, will you lose your planes? A: You will lose all planes in your line.
 

44 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

There is still one very important question in the air:

 

When? 

Wasn't that "between 3 weeks to 3 months"? Or was that a joke? I didn't include that answer to not rile up people, but for you I'll make an exception!  <3 

Edited April 2, 2021 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Carl_infar]

5 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

IN this case, there will be no need for stuka.. Which is a shame. because you could just take 109 e7 fighter bomber and raid airfields. The one thing lacking IMO is a need to perform Stuka raids. Also, Stuka raids vs airfield, 95% loss rate

 

 

For il2s it would be 100 percent loss rate if it would make a airfield strike as it cant even make a dive bomb attack at usefull diving speed... 

 

As the Pe2 is a special line now, there is no other machine in Reds inventory to do it, in the meen time the blues have the 109 E7 which dives well , can survive aginst fighters after the bomb drops, have the stuka which is also a nice diver and has nice bombload.

 

 What can The Reds do with their i 16 whichnlockups at ridoulus slow diving speeds and small bomb load or il2s which without 23mms are just slow ducks with small bombs... 

  

And You want even more capable machines in blue career lines combined together...

 

 

 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

To be honest, we successfully ran assaults and raids in IL-2s quite a few times in the past. We'd tank AAA and attack AAA in the first pass with rockets and guns, start blasting at long range, then after AAA has been dealt with we'd drop small bombs on other targets. Attack from 1km - 1.5km altitude. But rarely airfields, and it was a while ago so AAA may have changed.

 

We did this together with Bayern, Hardekoning, and others from ACG, he's an expert on it.

 

You don't need much speed in the IL-2, you can tank most AAA long enough to take some hits. Work together so you can divert immediately if hit and your teammate takes out the AAA.

[SV7_Faint]

Ahah ok, again this “super needed historycal-planeset” without A3... No more boner for this server... (and for this game, taw was a last hope). Thx all, see you (maybe). 

[JG5_Schuck]

52 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

I absolutely agree with you. Those cool raids we did (20+ escort and bombers) will be near impossible. Thos mass raids will be substituted with fighter with bomb raids.

 

Actually..... no.

It was said in the Q&A that you required very few points to get a new aircraft, and that it wouldn't take long (if you stay alive) to gain all the

none basic aircraft in your career path for that map. 

It was even mentioned that your plane set may be carried over from one map to the next. (but this was unconfirmed) which would be a great idea.

They've been testing this for for a bit now, and Blakhart says it all works very well...

Its going to take a bit of getting used to.

But i'm excited to see where this goes.....

Edited April 2, 2021 by JG5_Schuck
.

[FTC_Kongoo]

1 minute ago, 1/SG2_Faint said:

Ahah ok, again this “super needed historycal-planeset” without A3... No more boner for this server... (and for this game, taw was a last hope). Thx all, see you (maybe). 

Cheers babe, have fun!

[FTC_HK]

1 minute ago, 1/SG2_Faint said:

Ahah ok, again this “super needed historycal-planeset” without A3... No more boner for this server... (and for this game, taw was a last hope). Thx all, see you (maybe). 

We'll miss you and your wonderful attitude ❤️

[Cpt_Siddy]

It was also said that you will lose your planes on death, so chute killing galore ?

[FTC_Kongoo]

6 minutes ago, JG5_Schuck said:

 

Actually..... no.

It was said in the Q&A that you required very few points to get a new aircraft, and that it wouldn't take long (if you stay alive) to gain all the

none basic aircraft in your'e career path for that map. 

It was even mentioned that your plane set may be carried over from one map to the next. (but this was unconfirmed) which would be a great idea.

They've been testing this for for a bit now, and Blakhart says it all works very well...

Its going to take a bit of getting used to.

But i'm excited to see where this goes.....

No you don´t get the point. so lets say there are 15 of us in a squad. We want to have a sizeable raid at a given point to a depot or airfield.. whatever... we need 6 peshkas. so if all RL situation aligns, we need at least 6 ppl to get the bomber line and those 6 need to be there at a given time, which is higly unlikely. So to be able to field 6 pehskas, to be safe we would need 3/4 of the squad  in the bomber line...little options for other lines... Plenty of squads rotate between roles during our sorties and this planeset removies the possiblity.

Edited April 2, 2021 by ACG_Vietkong

[JG5_Schuck]

3 minutes ago, ACG_HardeKoning said:

We'll miss you and your wonderful attitude ❤️

 

Ha ha ha....... and it hasn't even started yet....

 

2 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

It was also said that you will lose your planes on death, so chute killing galore ?

 

I think this will be inevitable as pilots lives are now worth more...

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

True and true. Chute kills are an actual tactical tool now. Ad-hoc raids like this need to be done in IL-2/Stukas now. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

4 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

No you don´t get the point. so lets say there are 15 of us in a squad. We want to have a sizeable raid at a given point to a depot or airfield.. whatever... we need 6 peshkas. so if all RL situation aligns, we need at least 6 ppl to get the bomber line and those 6 need to be there at a given time, which is higly unlikely. So to be able to field 6 pehskas, to be safe we would need 3/4 of the squad  in the bomber line...little options for other lines...

 

You dont need 6 peshkas, 15 of you can total a AF or depot in IL-2's, that are available to all. And basic fighters will be available to dedicated peshka pilots. 

All this means is that you have to start imbibing peshka pilots stick now like he is a Healer in MMO party. (nobody wants to main one but every group needs one)

Edited April 2, 2021 by Cpt_Siddy

[FTC_Kongoo]

1 minute ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

You dont need 6 peshkas, 15 of you can total a AF or depot in IL-2's, that are available to all. And basic fighters will be available to dedicated peshka pilots. 

All this means is that you have to start imbibing peshka pilots stick now like he is a Healer in MMO party. 

you are missing the point. It isn´t about meta gaming. its about wanting to fly the peshka or whatever bomber you want, for the sake of it.

[Cpt_Siddy]

Then pick up a bomber line. You will still be able to fly basic fighter. 

 

This is not hard stuff, even ACGers should be able to figure this one out... 

[JG5_Schuck]

3 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

No you don´t get the point. so lets say there are 15 of us in a squad. We want to have a sizeable raid at a given point to a depot or airfield.. whatever... we need 6 peshkas. so if all RL situation aligns, we need at least 6 ppl to get the bomber line and those 6 need to be there at a given time, which is higly unlikely. So to be able to field 6 pehskas, to be safe we would need 3/4 of the squad  in the bomber line...little options for other lines...

 

True...... all six of you would have to have earned the PE2's and have chosen a 'bomber' career.

If out of 15 10 were fighters, i can see this happening from time to time.

But ACG is a big squad, i can see this disadvantaging smaller squads, and by that i mean that may have to fly different planes.

But was that not how the last campaign was, only this time it will be more restrictive..

[=LG=Flogger]

Il-2 is also fine plane for dive attacks. For example: https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=245&name==LG=Flogger ?

 

Of coz u need to practice that and its not easy but still possible

Edited April 2, 2021 by =LG=Flogger

[FTC_Kongoo]

2 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Then pick up a bomber line. You will still be able to fly basic fighter. 

 

This is not hard stuff, even ACGers should be able to figure this one out... 

no shit sherlock. I wanna see you in a bomber line.

[Cpt_Siddy]

Just now, ACG_Vietkong said:

no shit sherlock. I wanna see you in a bomber line.

You wont see me in a bomber line, i dont know how you ACG boomers communicate your stuff, but we in the Sober Sky have already made our role divisions more or less clear based on who can do what. Hence you wont see us crying, but adapting. 

 

It is not like YOU, AND ONLY YOU are subjected to this rule. Everyone is. 

[Bird]

I wanna say, at the moment from what I can see. I like the idea.  Looks cool af.

[FTC_Kongoo]

5 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

You wont see me in a bomber line, i dont know how you ACG boomers communicate your stuff, but we in the Sober Sky have already made our role divisions more or less clear based on who can do what. Hence you wont see us crying, but adapting. 

 

It is not like YOU, AND ONLY YOU are subjected to this rule. Everyone is. 

Of course everyone is subject to it. I´m only suggesting how to make it better for everyone. Not just ACGers who are able to field 15 or so active pilots, per side. This would work if there were specialisations for squadrons and squadrons communicate between each other and fly with each other on a regular basis.

Edited April 2, 2021 by ACG_Vietkong