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Tactical Air War


=LG=Kathon
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=LG=Blakhart

I`m looking for VVS RKKA historical experts who can help with polishing the planeset. 

I need accurate( correct dates/months/numbers) data for campaigns/maps ( different periods) Moscov, Stalingrad, Kuban. 

 

Moscow 1/1941

Axis Offensive Operation Taifun I
02.09.1941-10.1941

Moscow 2/1941

Draw Operation Taifun II
01.11.1941- 12.1941

Moscow 3/1941-42 Allied counteroffensive Moscov strategic offensive
05.12.1941- 1.1942

Stalingrad 4/1942

Axis offensive Operation Fischreiher 22.07.1942-08.1942

Kuban 5/1942

Axis offensive Edelweiss I 23.08.1942-09.1942

Stalingrad 6/1942 Draw Operation Hubertus&Uranus 09.1942-11.1942 Stalingrad 7/1942-43 Allied counteroffensive Operation Wintergewitter & Koltso 12.12.1942-02.1943

Kuban 8/1942

Draw Operation Edelweiss II & Skachok 12.01.1942-04.1943

Kuban 9/1942

Allied counteroffensive Kuban-Brückenkopf 04.1943-06.1943


Also I would like to confirm mostly used attack(JABO) soviet fighter during those campaigns.  

Please use pm with logical arguments from net sources/books/aviation-historical magazines
 

plus

When and where :

- when and where A-20 B was in duty ?

Pe-2 FT modification was firstly used ?
- MiG-3 Shvak was used in operational service?
-IL-2 42 was used ?
- IL-2 43 ?

- Yak 1b

- When first La-5 with 82 engine mods were used ? ?
- Yak 7b ??
 

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Cpt_Siddy

Dude, we got like less than 10 planes/side that fit the time periods, and some of them, like mig-3 was made in minuscule quantities. 

Also, many models we got now were series productions that are late to mid runs. There is huge difference from first series release to some mid point serials. 

There is no way you can go history nerd with what we got, you just improvise and see what fit what. 

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ACG_Medln
4 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Dude, we got like less than 10 planes/side that fit the time periods, and some of them, like mig-3 was made in minuscule quantities. 

Also, many models we got now were series productions that are late to mid runs. There is huge difference from first series release to some mid point serials. 

There is no way you can go history nerd with what we got, you just improvise and see what fit what. 

100% Agree

We all love the historical accuracy aspect of it, but gameplay wise we all want some balance in the game to also enjoy it, I'm sure no one here would literally want to fly as a soviet pilot in the eastern front irl in 1943

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=GEMINI=IngegnerTommy

I'd agree with the two previous post, surely we appreciate the historical accuracy but not when it's too restrictive in term of balance and variety of plane setset / gameplay.

I am confident you will be able to find the good compromise so that the experience is nice for all pilots :)

 

 

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ACG_Medln
2 hours ago, [GCA]T1m270 said:

Planeset from last Eastern front was pretty balanced no?

The fighter layout on the red side in the later stages should really be worked on. While germans get a BF109 F4 every end of the round, red newbies are stuck with flying mig 3 and laggs and have to go trough hurricane and spitfire that some probably don't even have to get good planes like the la5 or yak1b

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=LG=Blakhart
58 minutes ago, ACG_Medln said:

The fighter layout on the red side in the later stages should really be worked on. While germans get a BF109 F4 every end of the round, red newbies are stuck with flying mig 3 and laggs and have to go trough hurricane and spitfire that some probably don't even have to get good planes like the la5 or yak1b

 

12 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Dude, we got like less than 10 planes/side that fit the time periods, and some of them, like mig-3 was made in minuscule quantities. 

Also, many models we got now were series productions that are late to mid runs. There is huge difference from first series release to some mid point serials. 

There is no way you can go history nerd with what we got, you just improvise and see what fit what. 



No worries 😄
You all gonna be pissed "very much" or "very very much". Some will even start to make drama and quit but no one care what is mana-mana.

 

2:10


Now is the time to support us with your knowledge (not wishlist). 

 

Then if you dont have knowledge nor historical background you cant complain later :)
 

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=TH=Max16

Они тебе пишут?

Это ПВО Москвы

6a76fc18-d037-4810-83d0-d45255dd3928.jpg

ac6addff-433d-4360-89f0-0e5e411349a8.jpg

f41fc07e-06ef-4f6e-9c15-bc0adadcf463.jpg

Edited by =TH=Max16
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PhoenixLights97

Live reaction of the TAW community reacting to the changes:
 

 

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=LG=Blakhart
9 hours ago, =TH=Max16 said:

Они тебе пишут?

Это ПВО Москвы

6a76fc18-d037-4810-83d0-d45255dd3928.jpg

 

f41fc07e-06ef-4f6e-9c15-bc0adadcf463.jpg

Sprawna komunikacja wymaga jednego języka. Tutaj obowiązuje angielski. 

Dziękuję za materiały, potwierdzają się z tym co zebrałem w innych źródłach. Nie widzę tam roku produkcji i operacyjnego użycia. 

Kiedy i gdzie MiG-3 2xShVak były użyte operacyjnie pierwszy raz ?

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=TH=Max16

Until 23.12.1941, 22 pieces were produced, and since April 1942, another 30 were produced. I assume that all of them were sent to Moscow. AIR DEFENSE FORCE

 

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Cpt_Siddy
10 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

 



No worries 😄
You all gonna be pissed "very much" or "very very much". Some will even start to make drama and quit but no one care what is mana-mana.

 

 

Considering i engage on average 1 vs 3 fights against SCG and win, i am fine fighting with a tooth pick at this point for some more challenge. 

I have also repeatedly shot down G-2s from 6km with il-2 

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=LG=Blakhart
44 minutes ago, =TH=Max16 said:

Until 23.12.1941, 22 pieces were produced, and since April 1942, another 30 were produced. I assume that all of them were sent to Moscow. AIR DEFENSE FORCE

 

 

Thanks! :) Source, book, link please.

 

We are testing some features now, it will take a while. 

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SCG_Wulfe
6 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Considering i engage on average 1 vs 3 fights against SCG and win, i am fine fighting with a tooth pick at this point for some more challenge. 

I have also repeatedly shot down G-2s from 6km with il-2 

 

I suppose you could engage SCG pilots with 1 less wingman as well. Only having 2 of you might allow your SCG opponent to put up more of a fight. 😉

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ITA_SUPMannaia

Please.. Hurry up, mates...

Even if I am scarce now I am a TAW addict and abstinence is starting to be felt...
😬
 

162521708_10221553932771114_8150257365319932204_o.jpg

Edited by ITA_SUPMannaia
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=TH=Max16

You guys would have let people in for a test, we would have checked you out in a couple of days. Give us the task, and we'll write the results in a private message. Tired of waiting.

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Cpt_Siddy

Ok, since i am insufferable rabbleroucer, i will refuse to PM and instead make my proposal public for all to see. 

 

If you absolutely want a historical plane set campaign, you need to have historical objectives too. What i mean by that, is that the following axiom: beginners talk tactics, amateurs talk strategy, real pros talk logistics. 

 

This mean, the TAW, with its more historic planned plane sets should focus on logistic targets for the reds, and axis focus on defending them. If you want to have one side to fly perpetually inferior machines, you need to have vastly disproportionate rewards for them in engaging the historically important roles that VVS and LW had. Most of all TAW's in past were won and lost by dedicated bombers doing their job while dedicated non bombers aiding them by not doing jack shit on the opposite side (like covering stukas at 7km :rofl:, you know who you are)

 

So now, instead of reds chasing tanks, and Axis bombing AF and depos, red needs to be chasing fuel, food and ammo (all soft targets), then maybe some tonks. And blues need to trying to kill dug in red army assets (more of a hard targets) and actually hang around 1km to cover their very soft and logistically important assets.

 

This way, flying inferior tech is much more enjoyable, when you know that Hans need to intercept you before you get to the sweet soft fuel trucks (that you can gun down merrily with 20mm cannons). And leave the traditional job of tonk busting for when you really are dominating. A tank without a fuel, is after all, just a very big paper weight. 

 

This way you can have more of a realistic plane set and still have a fair and engaging TAW where it wont turn in to a all you can eat blue buffet over blue tanks for the 109 pilots if you try to push more accurate (and arguably gimped) plane set (because, lets be real, you wont be able to push a similar realism in red participation numbers VVS had historically :biggrin:). 

 

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SCG_Wulfe
2 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Ok, since i am insufferable rabbleroucer, i will refuse to PM and instead make my proposal public for all to see. 

 

If you absolutely want a historical plane set campaign, you need to have historical objectives too. What i mean by that, is that the following axiom: beginners talk tactics, amateurs talk strategy, real pros talk logistics. 

 

This mean, the TAW, with its more historic planned plane sets should focus on logistic targets for the reds, and axis focus on defending them. If you want to have one side to fly perpetually inferior machines, you need to have vastly disproportionate rewards for them in engaging the historically important roles that VVS and LW had. Most of all TAW's in past were won and lost by dedicated bombers doing their job while dedicated non bombers aiding them by not doing jack shit on the opposite side (like covering stukas at 7km :rofl:, you know who you are)

 

So now, instead of reds chasing tanks, and Axis bombing AF and depos, red needs to be chasing fuel, food and ammo (all soft targets), then maybe some tonks. And blues need to trying to kill dug in red army assets (more of a hard targets) and actually hang around 1km to cover their very soft and logistically important assets.

 

This way, flying inferior tech is much more enjoyable, when you know that Hans need to intercept you before you get to the sweet soft fuel trucks (that you can gun down merrily with 20mm cannons). And leave the traditional job of tonk busting for when you really are dominating. A tank without a fuel, is after all, just a very big paper weight. 

 

This way you can have more of a realistic plane set and still have a fair and engaging TAW where it wont turn in to a all you can eat blue buffet over blue tanks for the 109 pilots if you try to push more accurate (and arguably gimped) plane set (because, lets be real, you wont be able to push a similar realism in red participation numbers VVS had historically :biggrin:). 

 

 

I've got to think that they are still going to be accounting for balance in their plan. One way or another. They know if the server ends up being an "all you can eat blue buffet", that it will absolutely fail. I think a lot of what we are doing right now is making assumptions without seeing their big re-work in action and without being given details of their plans. I vote we wait-and-see. The way I've heard it described, there's a good chance that both sides will be equally miserable... sounds like a fair outcome to me. 😃 

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Cpt_Siddy
48 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

I've got to think that they are still going to be accounting for balance in their plan. One way or another. They know if the server ends up being an "all you can eat blue buffet", that it will absolutely fail. I think a lot of what we are doing right now is making assumptions without seeing their big re-work in action and without being given details of their plans. I vote we wait-and-see. The way I've heard it described, there's a good chance that both sides will be equally miserable... sounds like a fair outcome to me. 😃 

 

If they are going to go for the balance, then i really care little what they do, not much will change in that regard. 

 

The nature of what kind of war we are going to wage is largely dictated by the targets each side will have most bang for the buck. 

If reds will have better map result for going after logistics like fuel convoys and fuel in general, while buying time and defending their defending their defense positions (that could preferably not be arranged in the manner where one 1000kg bomb can take everything out). All the while, blues try to take out said defenses while trying to save the logistics that help the tanks. Then the nature of TAW would change drastically in the direction where actual plane set only matter if you got the tool for the job, IE, il-2 and such. The superiority or inferiority of the plane falls in to margins compared to the co ordination and correct target selection. (something that ~80% of TAW players chronically suck big fat rooster at, many of times have I seen players going for a milk run at 90% dead depot or other red herring when there were a dire need to strike some crucial target) 

 

TAW was never about hartmanning, the fact that most active bomber side usually wins and fighters are merely a footnote in the overall performance attest to that. But the way the bombing was done generally only favored precision bombing on numerically small, hard targets. This leads in formation of bomber elite, that pretty much decide the TAW outcome. In this the Pe-2, Ju-88 and 110 play bigger role than any other plane.  If all reds flew Pe-2's, all day erry day, the maps would end in day, max two. And same goes for opposing side, too. 

 

What i am trying to say here is that plane set is really secondary consideration. The real thing that sets up the stage is the targets that move the needle and who goes after them. If i had a say, i would force every red player in pe-2 with 10x 100kg's and just steam roll TAW's in a weeks time flat.  

 

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ACG_Medln
1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

If they are going to go for the balance, then i really care little what they do, not much will change in that regard. 

 

The nature of what kind of war we are going to wage is largely dictated by the targets each side will have most bang for the buck. 

If reds will have better map result for going after logistics like fuel convoys and fuel in general, while buying time and defending their defending their defense positions (that could preferably not be arranged in the manner where one 1000kg bomb can take everything out). All the while, blues try to take out said defenses while trying to save the logistics that help the tanks. Then the nature of TAW would change drastically in the direction where actual plane set only matter if you got the tool for the job, IE, il-2 and such. The superiority or inferiority of the plane falls in to margins compared to the co ordination and correct target selection. (something that ~80% of TAW players chronically suck big fat rooster, many of time i have seen players going for milk run for 90% dead depot or other red herrings when there were a dire need to strike some crucial target) 

 

TAW was never about hartmanning, the fact that most active bomber side usually wins and fighters are merely a footnote in the overall performance attest to that. But the way the bombing was done generally only favored precision bombing on numerically small, hard targets. This leads in formation of bomber elite, that pretty much decide the TAW outcome. In this the Pe-2, Ju-88 and 110 play bigger role than any other plane.  If all reds flew Pe-2's, all day erry day, the maps would end in day, max two. And same goes for opposing side, too. 

 

What i am trying to say here is that plane set is really secondary consideration. The real thing that sets up the stage is the targets that move the needle and who goes after them. If i had a say, i would force every red player in pe-2 with 10x 100kg's and just steam roll TAW's in a weeks time flat.  

 

You are missing the point that most of the people are requesting to get balanced which is the blue fighters vs reds ratio and how much more overpowered blues are compared to the reds. You are suggesting a idea that isn't attractive, nobody wants to fly bombers everyday just so that a minority can act upon what they want to do.

The server should be as realistic as playable, not as realistic as possible, you'll wipe out the activity of the server that way and I don't think the 30 or so active people typing in this forum will keep it active also.

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[GCA]T1m270
18 minutes ago, ACG_Medln said:

You are missing the point that most of the people are requesting to get balanced which is the blue fighters vs reds ratio and how much more overpowered blues are compared to the reds. You are suggesting a idea that isn't attractive, nobody wants to fly bombers everyday just so that a minority can act upon what they want to do.

The server should be as realistic as playable, not as realistic as possible, you'll wipe out the activity of the server that way and I don't think the 30 or so active people typing in this forum will keep it active also.

I think you are missing the point, that being there are 5-6 other il2 servers if you want to jerk off over planeset all day about what variant was issued on what exact date. The hook of TAW is the interesting frontline mechanic, what the changes are here is the interesting part. As long as the planeset is balanced I dont really care about the historical accuracy. 

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JG4_Thibaut
21 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

If they are going to go for the balance, then i really care little what they do, not much will change in that regard. 

 

The nature of what kind of war we are going to wage is largely dictated by the targets each side will have most bang for the buck. 

If reds will have better map result for going after logistics like fuel convoys and fuel in general, while buying time and defending their defending their defense positions (that could preferably not be arranged in the manner where one 1000kg bomb can take everything out). All the while, blues try to take out said defenses while trying to save the logistics that help the tanks. Then the nature of TAW would change drastically in the direction where actual plane set only matter if you got the tool for the job, IE, il-2 and such. The superiority or inferiority of the plane falls in to margins compared to the co ordination and correct target selection. (something that ~80% of TAW players chronically suck big fat rooster at, many of times have I seen players going for a milk run at 90% dead depot or other red herring when there were a dire need to strike some crucial target) 

 

TAW was never about hartmanning, the fact that most active bomber side usually wins and fighters are merely a footnote in the overall performance attest to that. But the way the bombing was done generally only favored precision bombing on numerically small, hard targets. This leads in formation of bomber elite, that pretty much decide the TAW outcome. In this the Pe-2, Ju-88 and 110 play bigger role than any other plane.  If all reds flew Pe-2's, all day erry day, the maps would end in day, max two. And same goes for opposing side, too. 

 

What i am trying to say here is that plane set is really secondary consideration. The real thing that sets up the stage is the targets that move the needle and who goes after them. If i had a say, i would force every red player in pe-2 with 10x 100kg's and just steam roll TAW's in a weeks time flat.  

 

In my opinion that dominance of precision bombing of precious targets -for example airfields and tank column- that we saw during the last two campaigns is also due to the non-existance of any good concept preventing these attacks. I remember in some cases in the last eastern front campaign having one or two guys flying reconnaissance, when we suspected larger enemy air raids. Those reconnaissance supported interceptions were very successful in case of largely assembled groups of striking aircraft. So I would state here that if you force the reds to fly their attacks with the Pe-2 (or anyother aircraft) in the way you imagine it and I'd force the blue team in an appropriate organised countermeasurement for it, you and your team would get a hard time trying to ''just steam roll TAW's in a weeks time flat''.

 

To sum up I think TAW is too dynamic and you can't control nor predict what individuals or squads do on the server. So your suggestions of one problem we saw now for two campaigns are too simplified for me and thus I can't accept that this issue is being solved only by changing the target layout. Furthermore I am very convinced, that fighter activity is not only a sidenote. But don't get me wrong, because I still think that changing the target layout could certainly have some positive changes in the overall TAW expierience.

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=TH=Max16
13 часов назад, JG4_Thibaut сказал:

In my opinion that dominance of precision bombing of precious targets -for example airfields and tank column- that we saw during the last two campaigns is also due to the non-existance of any good concept preventing these attacks. I remember in some cases in the last eastern front campaign having one or two guys flying reconnaissance, when we suspected larger enemy air raids. Those reconnaissance supported interceptions were very successful in case of largely assembled groups of striking aircraft. So I would state here that if you force the reds to fly their attacks with the Pe-2 (or anyother aircraft) in the way you imagine it and I'd force the blue team in an appropriate organised countermeasurement for it, you and your team would get a hard time trying to ''just steam roll TAW's in a weeks time flat''.

 

To sum up I think TAW is too dynamic and you can't control nor predict what individuals or squads do on the server. So your suggestions of one problem we saw now for two campaigns are too simplified for me and thus I can't accept that this issue is being solved only by changing the target layout. Furthermore I am very convinced, that fighter activity is not only a sidenote. But don't get me wrong, because I still think that changing the target layout could certainly have some positive changes in the overall TAW expierience.

What a smooth syllable. Very politely and understandably expressed his point of view. Thank you.

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=LG=Blakhart

Hey, psst...Who want some fresh news  ?

 

psst.jpg

Edited by =LG=Blakhart
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-=RedS=-Str1ke
43 минуты назад, =LG=Blakhart сказал:

Hey, psst...Who want some fresh news  ?

All waiting it in silence! it's just calm before the storm!

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=GEMINI=Hawkmoon98
14 minutes ago, SV7_Goth said:

If you have it, put it out)))

 

That's what she said

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ACG_Medln
9 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Hey, psst...Who want some fresh news  ?

 

psst.jpg

your fresh news are rotting for 9 hours already xd

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=LG=Blakhart

Well, looks like everyone forgot about TAW and make another "I killed 5 bots at CB/WoL/Finnish" video 😄

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=TLP=batmacumba
3 minutes ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Well, looks like everyone forgot about TAW and make another "I killed 5 bots at CB/WoL/Finnish" video 😄

Is this the news? I'm confused 🤔

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=LG=Blakhart

Ok, well... Looks like someone is reading this stuff... Gimme few minutes then ;]

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=LG=Blakhart

Motivation. 

Everyone have different. 

Why we fight in TAW ?
For fun ? For stats ? To feel this adrenaline rush which only this place can give in this unique way ?
Everyone have different answers.

But worst thing is to loose it. 

At some maps when one side was very close to achieve one of the victory conditions some players from oposite side were leaving active flying because they didnt see any sense. Sometimes side who was wining the map were loosing the tanks due to stupid airbases location or other arcade features which are not realistic compare to real conflict.

First new feature on which magnificent Kathon is working is new victory point system.

 

Now even when one side is achieving one of the conditions, second can still make a draw or steal some points for overall ranking. 

Check this table and leave your comments ;)
Next features soon.
 

71941622_pointsystem.png.9143b150f531c1d7d647e7dff2daaecf.png

 

And dont belive those who think we work ONLY under planeset ;)

New Tactical Air War 2.0 - No mercy - is coming :)

Edited by =LG=Blakhart
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WokeUpBlue
22 minutes ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Motivation. 

Everyone have different. 

Why we fight in TAW ?
For fun ? For stats ? To feel this adrenaline rush which only this place can give in this unique way ?
Everyone have different answers.

But worst thing is to loose it. 

At some maps when one side was very close to achieve one of the victory conditions some players from oposite side were leaving active flying because they didnt see any sense. Sometimes side who was wining the map were loosing the tanks due to stupid airbases location or other arcade features which are not realistic compare to real conflict.

First new feature on which magnificent Kathon is working is new victory point system.

 

Now even when one side is achieving one of the conditions, second can still make a draw or steal some points for overall ranking. 

Check this table and leave your comments ;)
Next features soon.
 

point system.png

 

 

And dont belive those who think we work ONLY under planeset ;)

New Tactical Air War 2.0 - No mercy - is coming :)

 

That's interesting, and most of the relative importance of the the scores and conditions looks good.

 

I'm assuming these are scores calculated at the end of a map to determine the score at the end of the campaign? Or at the end of each 2.5 hour mission to determine the score for a map?

 

I don't understand how "Terrain captured" and "More than 60% of terrain captured" can work together on the same scoresheet; if for example the blues capture more than 60% of the terrain for 3 points, then how can the reds get 4 points for capturing what I assume will be 40% of terrain at most? Or should "Terrain captured" be "ALL terrain captured?"

 

Does pilots killed include pilots captured?

 

Can one side get partial points; for example 1 point for destroying 50% of opponent's planes?

 

Will a map now be won when one side achieves a certain minimum number of points, 10 for example? Or will victory be determined the old way and it will be worth some set amount of points but the losing side can get a smaller amount of points through the new scoring system? If it's the latter, will it be possible to win a map by capturing all the airfields, but still get fewer points than the opposition by having more pilots killed and more planes and tanks destroyed?

 

If I'm understanding correctly, instead of maps being won by a score of 1-0, they will now be won by scores of 10-4 for example. So in an eight map campaign, the winning side could lose 5 maps by a very close margin but win the campaign by winning the remaining 3 maps by a big margin, for example.

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ACG_Medln
43 minutes ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Motivation. 

Everyone have different. 

Why we fight in TAW ?
For fun ? For stats ? To feel this adrenaline rush which only this place can give in this unique way ?
Everyone have different answers.

But worst thing is to loose it. 

At some maps when one side was very close to achieve one of the victory conditions some players from oposite side were leaving active flying because they didnt see any sense. Sometimes side who was wining the map were loosing the tanks due to stupid airbases location or other arcade features which are not realistic compare to real conflict.

First new feature on which magnificent Kathon is working is new victory point system.

 

Now even when one side is achieving one of the conditions, second can still make a draw or steal some points for overall ranking. 

Check this table and leave your comments ;)
Next features soon.
 

point system.png

 

 

And dont belive those who think we work ONLY under planeset ;)

New Tactical Air War 2.0 - No mercy - is coming :)

really looks promising but please, let us try it out so we can give good feedback! 

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Ditrich
1 час назад, =LG=Blakhart сказал:

Motivation. 

New Tactical Air War 2.0 - No mercy - is coming :)

well thought up, it's interesting to see the result!!!:clapping:

there remains an intrigue about the choice of aircraft:pilot:

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6./ZG26_Saker

I see "pilots killed" does that mean chute shooting will be encouraged?

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