Tactical Air War

[montag]

It is a bit hard not to lose aircraft when there are 2:1 odds in the sky.

 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

1 hour ago, MentalishMan said:

By us having missions where we fucking loose 40+ aircraft on top of People not focusing down the Last remaining German Airfields with peshkas. They won the air battle but didnt take a inch of land. 

Ehh, its not that simple. Those "last" German Airfields became three only late Thursday. On Wendsday it was six and earlier even more, while Germans were loosing tanks fast. So the focus shifted to tanks, as they dropped to below 100 until some "reinforcements" came basically screwing whole situation. And yesterday there was no air capability anymore to blast those three airfields by the time they were down to three. 

Mistakes were made, sure, but situation on the server was fairly dynamic and RED had to switch targets depending on the shifting fronts. And the plane limit was also against RED along with not exactly most favored by the community I-16s being primary airframe available for CAP and escort.

I mean ... this shows everything:

Still, it was a hell of a fun. 

[[GCA]T1m270]

What are peoples thoughts on AA strength? Finding coming in as a flight of 2-3 aircraft, the first plane in will die _Every_ Time on a defense or front line unit. Making ground attacks very frustrating unless you are in a 5+ ground every time. Its always a hit at wing root from AAA in the first pass on lead aircraft when evading. 

 

Thoughts? seems to me if it was less predictable it would be better. 

[JG4_Widukind]

7 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

I was just re-reading the TAW manual.  I noticed the section about 'Warehouses' I see that Axis have one up that I think most of us overlooked as a viable target.  But... does anyone recall Allies ever having a warehouse spawn during this map?  We sure could have used +80 planes... 

 

3.10 Warehouses and ships

Warehouses and ships are spawned and visible on the map once a few days. If not destroyed they increase limits by.

Warehouse:

· 80 aircraft

· 150 tanks

· 240 trucks

Ships:

· 135 aircraft

· 225 tanks

· 360 trucks

Damaged or partially destroyed warehouse or ships increase limits by accordingly smaller amount.

Yes you have one, yesterday evening

And ACG Squad and I destroy it. 

[MentalishMan]

56 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

Ehh, its not that simple. Those "last" German Airfields became three only late Thursday. On Wendsday it was six and earlier even more, while Germans were loosing tanks fast. So the focus shifted to tanks, as they dropped to below 100 until some "reinforcements" came basically screwing whole situation. And yesterday there was no air capability anymore to blast those three airfields by the time they were down to three. 

Mistakes were made, sure, but situation on the server was fairly dynamic and RED had to switch targets depending on the shifting fronts. And the plane limit was also against RED along with not exactly most favored by the community I-16s being primary airframe available for CAP and escort.

I mean ... this shows everything:

Still, it was a hell of a fun. 

The time lapse is nice to see but its not accurate to the last 4 finale missions, Missions 62 to 66 we were right on the door step of the Last Three Airfield. It was hella fun, But I think the Vigor of Map 1 is coming over to Map 2. 

[ACG_Smokejumper]

47 minutes ago, [GCA]T1m270 said:

What are peoples thoughts on AA strength? Finding coming in as a flight of 2-3 aircraft, the first plane in will die _Every_ Time on a defense or front line unit. Making ground attacks very frustrating unless you are in a 5+ ground every time. Its always a hit at wing root from AAA in the first pass on lead aircraft when evading. 

 

Thoughts? seems to me if it was less predictable it would be better. 

 

 

AA is fine. Video evidence says maybe we need more.   

 

 

 

 

Seriously though you should die if you go alone. The only real way to go alone is to take a PE2 or Ju88, get some altitude and make one diving bomb run. Release all bombs at high speed and run away. One pass and gone or you die.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

4 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

 

AA is fine. Video evidence says maybe we need more.   

 

 

Well, not quite.  The individual AA guns should be far, far, far less accurate.  The "low" setting is still too accurate, but within relative bounds of believability.  Mission makers cannot afford to have so many units on the map, so they increase the skill of what they have.

Edited December 1, 2018 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[Theodore_Morgan]

Hello guys, I just did a "successful" long spot-destroy-supply vehicles mission flying a P-40 and landed smooth on a friendly closed airfield due to low fuel. Although it says, in my TAW web profile that i crashed. In the manual it says it would be replenished after 3 missions but there is no sign it will happen and the plane seems to be lost. Any advice? Thanks.

 

EDIT:  It wasn´t a closed airfield. It was a generic friendly airfield. So it seems If you land on one of those airfield, oddly you will lose your plane.

Thanks for the help er.. no one!

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Jr_Lt_Tatanov

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

5 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

Well, not quite.  The individual AA guns should be far, far, far less accurate.  The "low" setting is still too accurate, but within relative bounds of believability.  Mission makers cannot afford to have so many units on the map, so they increase the skill of what they have.

Well, the Flights happening are also on a much smaller Scale. 

 

Often with Flights of around 4 People we had regular Loss Rates of 50 to 100% after just one High Speed Pass, due to AA, flying historical Attack Patterns. 

Historically Accurate, an unopposed Attack should loose at the highest every 10th Aircraft, for us that would be one every 2 to 4 Sorties, depending on Numbers. 

Historically there were Units operating Ju-87s unopposed by Fighters and the average Life Expectancy of the Aircraft was 8 Months. 8 Months flying regular Sorties every Day.

 

TAW claims to want People to Value their Virtual Lives, but it then seems weird to just mercilessly kill them off if they do anything but Hartmann around or fly Bombers at 6k on the Edges of the Map. 

 

Add to that the Losses you have just through Lag, when you attack a heavily defended Target. We once lost an entire Flight of Several Fighters + Bf110s just because we got caught in the Lag Porridge while the AA had field Day while we were stationary for almost 20 Seconds, after which all of us were Dead. 

 

So in Conclusion we stopped flying Ground Attack or Mission oriented, because it is just no fun. 

 

And because the AA is so Effective, it really makes the Patrol Fighters rather Pointless. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Blackhawk_FR]

What's the level of gunners in this campaign?

 

Btw I join the previous post about gunners. Sure I'm ok to loose a pilot life even while doing my best (you can always be unluky or surprised by someone). But I'm not OK to face those f****** extraterrestrial gunners that kill your pilot, after their plane had been just shot down by a storm of shells, and while you're flying away at 600/700km/h. 

At least Pe2 pilots will be happy, because of this bullshit, blue pilots will tend to stop attacking them. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

2 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

What's the level of gunners in this campaign?

Medium and High. 

 

Remember: Low is already twice as effective as historical. 

[Blackhawk_FR]

I understand that flak got to be on medium or high level to counter the fact mission maker can't put too much flak otherwhise the game will crash. 

 

But I don't get the point for the gunners.

 

Gunners from that game are extraterrestrial, so counter this by decreasing their level. 

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

10 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Medium and High. 

 

Remember: Low is already twice as effective as historical. 

 

It is set to random as far as i know. That being said, nothing will change because people refuse to understand that bombers need escorts and shouldn't be able to just solo yolo like they do now.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Operation_Ivy

[HR_Eldamar]

24 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

What's the level of gunners in this campaign?

 

Btw I join the previous post about gunners. Sure I'm ok to loose a pilot life even while doing my best (you can always be unluky or surprised by someone). But I'm not OK to face those f****** extraterrestrial gunners that kill your pilot, after their plane had been just shot down by a storm of shells, and while you're flying away at 600/700km/h. 

At least Pe2 pilots will be happy, because of this bullshit, blue pilots will tend to stop attacking them. 

I am that pilot you speak of and you received as many shots as I did and you also returned to base, attacking a peshka from behind has its risks, or do you think you are untouchable?

[Blackhawk_FR]

1 minute ago, HR_Eldamar said:

I am that pilot you speak of and you received as many shots as I did and you also returned to base

 

No: http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=15437&name=F/JG300_Faucon

 

 

2 minutes ago, HR_Eldamar said:

or do you think you are untouchable?

 

No either.

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

6 minutes ago, HR_Eldamar said:

I am that pilot you speak of and you received as many shots as I did and you also returned to base, attacking a peshka from behind has its risks, or do you think you are untouchable?

 

It's about some people thinking that gunners are way too good in comparison to historical data (i don't know the source). Other people think that they should be able to fly alone in a bomber and still be effective without escort.

[Blackhawk_FR]

It's even not a question of historical/physical/human fact. It's a question of gameplay... 

 

But it's even more strange as it occurs only against Pe2. As I said, I already few red severals time, and I've never been disturbed by german gunners (and I was really not doing careful approachs on them). But I need more flights on red side to confirm. 

[IRRE_Centx]

2 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

But it's even more strange as it occurs only against Pe2. As I said, I already few red severals time, and I've never been disturbed by german gunners (and I was really not doing careful approachs on them). But I need more flights on red side to confirm. 

 

My 110 gunner who one shoted an I16 yesterday sends you his regards 

 

 

But personnally, I know that I avoid attacking Pe2s in a 109, I attack them only in 110s now

[PikAss]

I love when People only start to complain about certain Things, when something bad happend to them caused by that issue. For example losing a killstreak.

[HR_Eldamar]

an artilleryman comfortably sits on a stable 350 km platform watching a plane in a predictable trajectory, precisely because of its high speed, and the fighter, is piloting, aiming in a plane maneuvered at high g and 700kmh. Who has more facility to hit? The only advantage of the fighter is its size and firepower, things that do not guarantee to emerge unscathed

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

2 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

I understand that flak got to be on medium or high level to counter the fact mission maker can't put too much flak otherwhise the game will crash. 

No, because on average the Flights are smaller and since the Flak is grouped, their Firing Efforts are far more accurate and concentrated than IRL, even in Low Mode, and they are twice as Accurate as IRL in Low Mode.

Add to that the Lag caused by Flak in Attacks and the inhumane Rate of Fire (61-K has twice the RoF than IRL already, even in Low, because it doesn't have to Reload) and your comment is completely unsubstantiated. 

So even in low one Flak Gun is as good as 4 IRL Guns. 

 

Putting them from low to Medium increases their Efficiency by a Factor of 4. So one 61-K guns equals a Battery of at least 16 Guns IRL on Medium. 

On High the Effiency is 6 times higher than low, so one Gun equals about 24 Guns. 

 

The Flak is ridiculously, insanely overpowered. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

7 minutes ago, HR_Eldamar said:

an artilleryman comfortably sits on a stable 350 km platform watching a plane in a predictable trajectory, precisely because of its high speed, and the fighter, is piloting, aiming in a plane maneuvered at high g and 700kmh. Who has more facility to hit? The only advantage of the fighter is its size and firepower, things that do not guarantee to emerge unscathed

 

seems like you have very little knowledge of air gunnery. It was incredibly difficult to shoot something down accurately, it was more on a spray and pray basis. That's why bombers were *only* flown in formation to maximize the spray. Bombers who fell out of formation were a very easy target and didn't make it home usually.

 

Something that i rarely hear when it comes to this discussion is that the AI rear gunner not only provides a random good or not so good protection but also calls out incoming enemy, which is a big advantage. 

 

The problem i have with AI gunners is the randomness and sometimes wonky over the top behavior where they act out of the boundaries a human can possibly do. Human controlled gunners wouldn't be half as effective as the ai ace gunners. 

 

In the end, this discussion was brought up many times and =LG= decided that this is the best possibly way to deal with many issues. In the very least the situation now is way better than a couple of campaigns ago where every gunner was on ace difficulty.

[HR_Eldamar]

5 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

seems like you have very little knowledge of air gunnery

 

 



It's possible, I suppose you have many more flight hours than me as a bomber gunner

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

11 minutes ago, HR_Eldamar said:

It's possible, I suppose you have many more flight hours than me as a bomber gunner

 

It's just that you seem to think that a gunner in a bomber had an easier time shooting down an attacking fighter than the other way around, which is absolutely not true. At least when talking a single bomber.

[Blackhawk_FR]

43 minutes ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

I love when People only start to complain about certain Things, when something bad happend to them caused by that issue. For example losing a killstreak.

 

I've already complained about extraterrestrial gunners, and I'm not the only one.

 

[7.GShAP/Silas]

4 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

~WordsWordsWords~

 

 

I'm on the same page, 100%.  TAW is beyond brutal to ground attackers.  It's obvious from how Pe-2s and P-40s are the ride of choice for the Soviet tank killers right now, and once the 190 appears there is no reason to fly any ground attacker ever again for Axis.  The AA we face is on the same level as radar guided gun systems.

 

Historical attack patterns absolutely do not work on TAW except for their own sake, at the price of suicide. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[Carl_infar]

There is no problem with gunners.

I understand that now theres a lot of instant gratification crowd, who instead of  changing some tactics  prefer to whine and complain...

 

Check out some of the Sheriffs videos - during one of the late taws he didnt loose even one plane to pe2 while at the same time shoot down many bombers, while following few simple rules.

 

When I fly bombers I gun myself and see all those straight line or almost straight line approaches. When You are  approaching form the six (or 12) in straight line or slightly curvate path even flying 700km'h I still have to move only slightly the gun more or less in the attacker flight path and hold the trigger . You will be hit each time when you buzz by... (not to speak about the scenario when you sit for ages on the bomber six)

 

Same is with aaa -You need only one who will drag the aaa guns and the others can attack unopposed. Of course theres some need for proper timing and coordination but its quite easy

 

With some training even single dive bomber can attack without much problems, but has to remember not to dive in straight line. You need to change not only the speed and altitude but also the angle, so the attack must be with a continous turn in a dive (in this case the change of the course doesnt have to be significant to throw the aaa aim off) . It needs of course some practice to be able to hit something that way but if you want to stick to lown Wolf tactics and do diving attacks and not level bombing its the safest way. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Which is why in your Sortie History the only Ground Kills are scored with He-111 while you use your Bf110 to kill Peshkas and Gunship I-16s in the 111. 

I also love reading the Records of Fighter Pilots, dragging Flak back in Stalingrad, as the Soviet Gunners totally only engaged them instead of the 4 Bombers homing in on them.

[Carl_infar]

I spoke from my experience flying many previous taws doing both sides.

During current i didnt have much time to fly so i flown only few sorties And they happen to be on 2win engines.

Anyway i find 110 a real pe2 killer 

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

3 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

I spoke from my experience flying many previous taws doing both sides.

During current i didnt have much time to fly so i flown only few sorties And they happen to be on 2win engines.

Anyway i find 110 a real pe2 killer 

 

You know how in a good Story, like Lord of the Rings, Book of Ice and Fire or Harry Potter (References of a now 24 Year old)  you spend time with your favourite Characters, grow to identify and love them and it tears you apart when any of them die? 

 

Well, TAW is like the Walking Dead, interesting in the beginning, but now you stopped caring or watching, too many Faces, no Time, everybody just dies in quick Sequence? The Indifference in even a Main Characters Death because the Show stops building Characters but lives to tear them down and kill them off? And the Villains are the same, just different Faces?

 

There was a Time when you could fly TAW meaningfully, when you valued your Virtual Life and it became a bit precious, so you actually tried to survive at all cost? 

Well, when you die every 3rd Flight that Stops and as with the Walking Dead, interest slowly dies off. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[II./JG77_Manu*]

4 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

There is no problem with gunners.

I understand that now theres a lot of instant gratification crowd, who instead of  changing some tactics  prefer to whine and complain...

 

Check out some of the Sheriffs videos - during one of the late taws he didnt loose even one plane to pe2 while at the same time shoot down many bombers, while following few simple rules.

 

When I fly bombers I gun myself and see all those straight line or almost straight line approaches. When You are  approaching form the six (or 12) in straight line or slightly curvate path even flying 700km'h I still have to move only slightly the gun more or less in the attacker flight path and hold the trigger . You will be hit each time when you buzz by... (not to speak about the scenario when you sit for ages on the bomber six)

 

Same is with aaa -You need only one who will drag the aaa guns and the others can attack unopposed. Of course theres some need for proper timing and coordination but its quite easy

 

With some training even single dive bomber can attack without much problems, but has to remember not to dive in straight line. You need to change not only the speed and altitude but also the angle, so the attack must be with a continous turn in a dive (in this case the change of the course doesnt have to be significant to throw the aaa aim off) . It needs of course some practice to be able to hit something that way but if you want to stick to lown Wolf tactics and do diving attacks and not level bombing its the safest way. 

 

You don't get it, do you?

People told about historical attack pattern and you start telling stuff about some (unhistoric) hacks to manage some attacks without getting killed. And start about "instant gratification crowd". In a sim. In a dead is dead online campaign. People who do ground attack. That's just hilarious..well and disgusting. We don't need that.

 

Nothing is fine. Pe2s fell like flies against 109s in the real world, in early parts of the war there were k/d between 12 and 20:1. Bombers have always been easy prey when not protected by fighters, even B-17 or B-24, which are on a whole different level then Pe-2s (both in durability and weaponry). I understand that the Red lone wolfs who are used to do their attack runs mostly unscathed don't like the prospect, but the current situation couldn't be further away from reality. 

About AAA Klaus already said everything that has to be said, nothing to add.  

Edited December 1, 2018 by II./JG77_Manu*

[Blackhawk_FR]

4 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

There is no problem with gunners.

I understand that now theres a lot of instant gratification crowd, who instead of  changing some tactics  prefer to whine and complain...

 

Check out some of the Sheriffs videos - during one of the late taws he didnt loose even one plane to pe2 while at the same time shoot down many bombers, while following few simple rules.

 

Hahahaha ... Yes, but no. It happened like this: 

 

"They just don't care about the 20mm shells storm exploding all around them on their aircraft, and even more when it's just been shot down. At this time, they say "fuck human capability, resistance, and self control, i'm a super hero" and they manage to kill your pilot few seconds AFTER while you're flying away them at 600/700km/h."

 

It's quite different from behind shot down during the approach, in a high six position, before shells start tearing apart the Pe2. 

And yes I know, that I could make a head on pass on them, or wait a turn for a 90° shot, or loose my time with 4, 5, 6, 7 side/snap shots, etc etc... I know. But in all cases, it's a waste of time, Pe2 will drop their bombs or their escort will fall on you. 

 

And, yes, there IS a problem with gunners. 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[MentalishMan]

Nice to see a Even playing field today, instead of Axis Controlling most of the Missions during Mid Day. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

Gunners are fine, they provide me with steady diet of tears and salt. 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

21 hours ago, JG4_Widukind said:

Yes you have one, yesterday evening

And ACG Squad and I destroy it. 

 

That would explain it.  Thanks. 

2 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

Hahahaha ... Yes, but no. It happened like this: 

 

"They just don't care about the 20mm shells storm exploding all around them on their aircraft, and even more when it's just been shot down. At this time, they say "fuck human capability, resistance, and self control, i'm a super hero" and they manage to kill your pilot few seconds AFTER while you're flying away them at 600/700km/h."

 

It's quite different from behind shot down during the approach, in a high six position, before shells start tearing apart the Pe2. 

And yes I know, that I could make a head on pass on them, or wait a turn for a 90° shot, or loose my time with 4, 5, 6, 7 side/snap shots, etc etc... I know. But in all cases, it's a waste of time, Pe2 will drop their bombs or their escort will fall on you. 

 

And, yes, there IS a problem with gunners. 

 

 

The most telling thing I see here is that there IS a problem with bad tactics and situational awareness vs. said pe-2 and any possible escorts.   

[MentalishMan]

 

2 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

Hahahaha ... Yes, but no. It happened like this: 

 

"They just don't care about the 20mm shells storm exploding all around them on their aircraft, and even more when it's just been shot down. At this time, they say "fuck human capability, resistance, and self control, i'm a super hero" and they manage to kill your pilot few seconds AFTER while you're flying away them at 600/700km/h."

 

It's quite different from behind shot down during the approach, in a high six position, before shells start tearing apart the Pe2. 

And yes I know, that I could make a head on pass on them, or wait a turn for a 90° shot, or loose my time with 4, 5, 6, 7 side/snap shots, etc etc... I know. But in all cases, it's a waste of time, Pe2 will drop their bombs or their escort will fall on you. 

 

And, yes, there IS a problem with gunners. 

 

6 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

That would explain it.  Thanks. 

 

The most telling thing I see here is that there IS a problem with bad tactics and situational awareness vs. said pe-2 and any possible escorts.   

 

Sounds more like a Problem of "Solo German Pilot" Syndrome than anything else. 

 

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

Yer-2 anybody? .50 cals anybody?

Or literally a single real medium bomber for the allied side to show up?

Literally 90% of encounters are fighters and most cannot take their time to setup and aim for the proper weakpoints. If the Pe-2 puts its nose down and speeds up and points both gunners at you: shit out of luck, you gotta wait till you get a better angle

 

110s Ju88s dont randomly fall apart either, you still have to tag the engines or whack them hard enough in a single spot

 

 

 

There's a reason the german focused so heavily on firepower from 43 onwards

Edited December 2, 2018 by =FEW=N3croo

[MentalishMan]

7 minutes ago, =FEW=N3croo said:

Yer-2 anybody? .50 cals anybody?

Or literally a single real medium bomber for the allied side to show up?

Literally 90% of encounters are fighters and most cannot take their time to setup and aim for the proper weakpoints. If the Pe-2 puts its nose down and speeds up and points both gunners at you: shit out of luck, you gotta wait till you get a better angle

 

110s Ju88s dont randomly fall apart either, you still have to tag the engines or whack them hard enough in a single spot

 

 

 

There's a reason the german focused so heavily on firepower from 43 onwards

Gib B-25 Mitchell, B-26 Marauder or A-26 Invaded Pls, I would love to have another Medium Bomber of decent capacity for the Allies. 

[II./JG77_Manu*]

5 hours ago, =FEW=N3croo said:

 

There's a reason the german focused so heavily on firepower from 43 onwards

 

Yes, namely B-24 and B-17 but definitely not Pe2 ? 

Edited December 2, 2018 by II./JG77_Manu*

[LLv24_StableAce_VR]

This was interesting ?