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HP Reverb Second Generation 2020

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20 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

It will be a never ending upgrade process.

 

Better GPU's for better performance along with better headsets which require more performance.

And then the CPU to drive it all.

We will probably always be striving to achieve full performance with no reprojection.

I have access to my sons rig containing 2090 super gpu. I am not impressed compared to my 1090 ti. 
I dtopped upgrade years ago. I go for one on long term. Right now we do not have adequate gpu to run better than Rift S in my opinion and that is barely. If you take DCS in consideration. If 3090 ti is going to be a great leap forward I might upgrade my goggles. But in my opinion I rather have same specs as Rift S but lighter Goggles like sunsgades. 😎

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4 hours ago, dburne said:

It will be a never ending upgrade process.

 

Better GPU's for better performance along with better headsets which require more performance.

And then the CPU to drive it all.

We will probably always be striving to achieve full performance with no reprojection.

 

I don't think so. Eventually a mainstream supplier (Oculus, probably) is going to incorporate eye tracking and dynamic foveated rendering so they can improve graphics and battery life for their mobile VR headset. The trickle-down will be that more headsets will include eye tracking, or those that already theoretically have it will get a software ecosystem where it actually works. Suddenly we'll have massively reduced rendering requirements. Might even couple it with deep learning fovea infill and use just sparse peripheral rendering. Could be a 10x reduction in rendering requirements.

 

(Cue people who've not read the research saying that foveated rendering doesn't work or that your eyes can spot the difference).

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I would consider upgrading if they were able to make the picture look less washed-out, but I am guessing that would require them to change the type of display they are using (LCD).

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Info is out. Basically, I was right 😉

  • Same resolution but upgraded panel. Less persistence, should feel smoother. Improved contrast. Still 2k x 2k per eye, 90hz.
  • Valve-designed and calibrated lenses. Should give a wider sweet spot, better edge-to-edge clarity. People really like the Index' ability to move your eyes round the whole image and have clarity, hopefully similar here too.
  • Same claimed FOV as Reverb 1.
  • Mechanical IPD.
  • Off-ear headphones by Valve (same as Index, identical hardware)
  • 4 camera inside-out WMR tracking. Double the total tracking volume.
  • No outside-in lighthouse tracking, sorry folks.
  • Same price. $599 US, pre-ordering now, shipping towards the end of the year.

 

Edit: Good stream with Q&A from the MRTV guy:

 

Edited by Alonzo
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I think it is ...I'm USA ...hoping it's setup for pre-order soon

Edited by J5_HellCat_

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So then I guess WMR is still a requirement?

OK never mind just read up on it - WMR still has to be used.

I do like that they have moved to 4 cameras, and physical IPD adjustment.

 

Tempting. Going to have to mull over for a bit.

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14 minutes ago, J5_HellCat_ said:

I think it is ...I'm USA ...hoping it's setup for pre-order soon

I live in Virginia and just pre-ordered the new version Reverb.  https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset.html?jumpid=va_vxbe6kzc5h

Website says they will be available in other areas soon.

 

I've never had a problem with WMR using my Reverb. I've found it more reliable than the Oculus Rift CV1 and the tool tray plus SteamVR. But to each his own.

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4 minutes ago, Gordon200 said:

I live in Virginia and just pre-ordered the new version Reverb.  https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset.html?jumpid=va_vxbe6kzc5h

Website says they will be available in other areas soon.

 

I've never had a problem with WMR using my Reverb. I've found it more reliable than the Oculus Rift CV1 and the tool tray plus SteamVR. But to each his own.

 

Good to hear, thanks for the input. Just seems like there are always a lot of threads across some forums from folks trying to get the Reverb running just right.

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Initially Reverb had a cable connector that could work loose in vigorous activity. They got on that and provided a solution to prevent that. I noticed this new Reverb has a much slimmer cable and I see they have moved the connector elsewhere.

 

WMR needs to be activated in an order. Orient the headset by panning up, down, left and right. Then you minimize wmr and launch the game.  As the game loads put the headset on and you're good to go. Problems arise if the headset isn't oriented to the play area in the first step. When in game later the cockpit will follow your head movements.

I also had no trouble with the IPD adjustments done in Windows settings.

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Patience is the key, new Reverb  will be available this fall. 

 

"For 2020, HP seems to be hoping to get ahead of demand by opening pre-orders for its $600 Reverb G2 the same day as announcing the device, with plans to ship it this fall."

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Interesting.  I might be willing to upgrade if I could flip my Reverb for $300 or something.  I'm really pretty happy with it.  It also depends on what gets announced as the year goes on.  After dealing with the Reverbs high resolution I wouldn't be surprised if the Valve guys have it in their mind to build a similar rig with a wider FOV and sell it for a premium price next to the already expensive Index.  They don't seem too worried about the competition.  When the new graphics cards come out later it will lift the hardware limitations for this considerably.

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3 minutes ago, Bernard_IV said:

Interesting.  I might be willing to upgrade if I could flip my Reverb for $300 or something.  I'm really pretty happy with it.  It also depends on what gets announced as the year goes on.  After dealing with the Reverbs high resolution I wouldn't be surprised if the Valve guys have it in their mind to build a similar rig with a wider FOV and sell it for a premium price next to the already expensive Index.  They don't seem too worried about the competition.  When the new graphics cards come out later it will lift the hardware limitations for this considerably.

 

I would love to see them bring out an Index with inside/out tracking like the Rift S has.

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53 minutes ago, dburne said:

So then I guess WMR is still a requirement?

OK never mind just read up on it - WMR still has to be used.

I do like that they have moved to 4 cameras, and physical IPD adjustment.

 

16 minutes ago, dburne said:

I would love to see them bring out an Index with inside/out tracking like the Rift S has.

 

They did say that they're working with Valve to ensure that the WMR bridge is first class, low latency, and as much of a "native experience" as possible. The guy on the MRTV stream said they had pushed a flurry of WMR updates recently, in partnership with Valve, and today's experience is much better than it was previously. I've seen the same threads as you regarding WMR, but they also contain people who seem to think 60hz is a good idea for their VR headset, so I think I have to take all problems/advice with a pinch of salt when it comes to the Reverb. One pilot I know uses it and he's an excellent flier, so I certainly think it's possible to get acceptable performance from WMR these days.

 

As for headset choices, nothing is ever really easy, is it? For now I'm contending with the following:

  • Rift S, my current headset, has mediocre resolution and audio, but the tracking, software ecosystem and all around performance are great. FOV is junk.
  • Index, on an 8+ week back-order, is hella expensive, heavy, but has a great screen, decent resolution, 144hz mode if you want it, great sound, mainstream-manufacturer leading FOV, and worlds-best tracking. Did I mention it's $1400 in Canada?
  • Reverb G2 won't be available in the US until fall, other regions who knows when, has very high resolution, probably good clarity with the new lenses, great sound. Middle of the pack FOV though.
  • Pimax ought to be a slam-dunk win for sim enthusiasts, but the company keeps shooting themselves in the foot with poor availability, inconsistent customer service, and very inconsistent software releases. Amazing immersive FOV and middle of the pack resolution (I'm considering 5k+ / Artisan here, I think the 8KX is ridiculously priced and I'm not at all convinced about 75hz).

What I really want, all things considered, is for Oculus to make me a Pimax! (Actually, or Valve or HP...)

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IPD hardware slider 60-68mm. Much better then without slider, but 60-68 is still narrow range. Pitty. It will be excellent for people in range.

 

Edited by Brzi_Joe

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5 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

 

 

They did say that they're working with Valve to ensure that the WMR bridge is first class, low latency, and as much of a "native experience" as possible. The guy on the MRTV stream said they had pushed a flurry of WMR updates recently, in partnership with Valve, and today's experience is much better than it was previously. I've seen the same threads as you regarding WMR, but they also contain people who seem to think 60hz is a good idea for their VR headset, so I think I have to take all problems/advice with a pinch of salt when it comes to the Reverb. One pilot I know uses it and he's an excellent flier, so I certainly think it's possible to get acceptable performance from WMR these days.

 

As for headset choices, nothing is ever really easy, is it? For now I'm contending with the following:

  • Rift S, my current headset, has mediocre resolution and audio, but the tracking, software ecosystem and all around performance are great. FOV is junk.
  • Index, on an 8+ week back-order, is hella expensive, heavy, but has a great screen, decent resolution, 144hz mode if you want it, great sound, mainstream-manufacturer leading FOV, and worlds-best tracking. Did I mention it's $1400 in Canada?
  • Reverb G2 won't be available in the US until fall, other regions who knows when, has very high resolution, probably good clarity with the new lenses, great sound. Middle of the pack FOV though.
  • Pimax ought to be a slam-dunk win for sim enthusiasts, but the company keeps shooting themselves in the foot with poor availability, inconsistent customer service, and very inconsistent software releases. Amazing immersive FOV and middle of the pack resolution (I'm considering 5k+ / Artisan here, I think the 8KX is ridiculously priced and I'm not at all convinced about 75hz).

What I really want, all things considered, is for Oculus to make me a Pimax! (Actually, or Valve or HP...)

 

Yeah I am with you on that one. Sadly I think Oculus focus going forward is on Quest.

I would order an Index if it had inside/out tracking like Rift S and Quest.

I have never cared for Pimax ways of doing things, so I would not consider them. But that is just me.

Edited by dburne

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I think once you've experienced Reverb resolution there's no going back.  It is really great.  I think I ID pretty decent with it from a decent range.  Sometimes I struggle a bit depending on the scenario but I have never used the migoto mod and find the ID situation to be adequate. 

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To me...this looks like the headset that might move me from my Rift S.

 

Improvements that matter, nice additions from Valve, a price that is half of what it takes to buy the entire light house ecosystem for the Index....with incredible clarity.  
 

I may be sold.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, dburne said:

I have never cared for Pimax ways of doing things, so I would not consider them. But that is just me.

No, it is not just you.

 

21 minutes ago, AuburnAlumni said:

To me...this looks like the headset that might move me from my Rift S.

Perhaps. Though there might be some more releases till the G2 is out. Fall 2020 could also move beyond end-2020 😎 so let's wait for what the competition brings to the market.

 

For me personally, this G2 announcement is a bit of a let down. Yes, it will be better than G1 but I hoped at least for higher FOV (hor and ver) with similar PPD.

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1 hour ago, Gordon200 said:

I live in Virginia and just pre-ordered the new version Reverb.  https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset.html?jumpid=va_vxbe6kzc5h

Website says they will be available in other areas soon.

 

I've never had a problem with WMR using my Reverb. I've found it more reliable than the Oculus Rift CV1 and the tool tray plus SteamVR. But to each his own.

 

Did you get an actual pre-order ? Like give them payment information or did you just click the pre-order button and give them your email info so they could notify you when it's ready ? I got the latter .....

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@J5_HellCat_ I had given them my contact info for notification previously. Today I didn't hear from them but saw the announcement and checked the website above. There they had a button to pre-order. I clicked that and provided my email address again and received confirmation. No payment authorization or other commitment was requested.

If I remember correctly I didn't buy my current Reverb directly from HP. When it was available I purchased it from Amazon.

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Lots of great news, I gotta say this would be my recommendation for best value proposition headset. Shame the FOV didn't at least match the Index. Looks like I won't be upgrading. I imagine by the end of summer we'll have news on a few more fall options. I might be looking towards Pimax for the next step up or maybe by then Valve will have a Pro model like they did with HTC and the Vive.

Edited by VR-DriftaholiC

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2 hours ago, Gordon200 said:

@J5_HellCat_ I had given them my contact info for notification previously. Today I didn't hear from them but saw the announcement and checked the website above. There they had a button to pre-order. I clicked that and provided my email address again and received confirmation. No payment authorization or other commitment was requested.

If I remember correctly I didn't buy my current Reverb directly from HP. When it was available I purchased it from Amazon.

 

@Gordon200 Did the same ...confirmation on the site that they would contact me .....now we wait ....

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4 hours ago, apollon01 said:

No, it is not just you.

 

Perhaps. Though there might be some more releases till the G2 is out. Fall 2020 could also move beyond end-2020 😎 so let's wait for what the competition brings to the market.

 

For me personally, this G2 announcement is a bit of a let down. Yes, it will be better than G1 but I hoped at least for higher FOV (hor and ver) with similar PPD.

2160 per eye with a higher FOV would mean ONLY folks with the highest of rigs would be able to run those specs.  With current gen hardware..it's just not feasible.  The CPUs/GPUs now are barely able to keep up with resolutions that are half of that.  I'd love a bigger FOV as well..but at half the cost of an Index with the same audio and better resolution, along with inside out tracking..that's a damn tantalizing setup.  Pimax should be dominating the market with their large FOV difference, but they can't get out of their own way with their 294845893 headsets they keep releasing without proper support/optimizaiton for any of them.  I know most Reverb owners on here seem to be very pleased with G1...these improvements to G2 should make it even better.

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I don't think 130+ FOV at 2160x2160 is out of reach for current gen hardware. I render more pixels then this already. Despite this games recent upgrades in the rendering department it still only uses 3-4 cores and no simultaneous multi-threading. Other VR titles that are more optimized could fully utilize more resolution and FOV. I can crush HF:Alyx at 144hz with more then double the pixels of this game. Yeah it's apples and oranges but I don't think it's pointless to offer better headsets because only the best machines can run them.

 

How can you blame hardware when you're only using 30-50% of it?

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You might be close with a 2080 TI.  I know my 1080ti is a bit overwhelmed with the 2160x2160.  I had to pull the graphics back a fair amount.  If the 3080ti is what we think it is much larger FOV with tons more pixels will be no issue.  The CPU will be enough as that mostly falls to the physics engine and all of that fun stuff.  Once you get enough clock speed there you are good.

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I have HP Reverb, 2080Ti, i3-8350k at 4.6, and 32GB RAM at 3200. Unlike some (many ?) personally I didn't notice any performance improvement in VR with the newest IL2 engine, but I admit I didn't test thoroughly because I kindof gave up on VR at least for now. I realized how hard it is for any flight-simulator to drive 2 separate 2K monitors at 90fps each, which is required to provide smooth experience with HP Reverb. To reach that fps target for me would require an enormous and unrealistic leap in performance (basically a jump from my current ~60fps to a solid 90fps). And unlike some I am not willing to drastically degrade my graphics quality in an attempt to reach the desired fps, because even with the Reverb the virtual world looks much blurrier and low-res compared to my current 4k monitor.

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46 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

I have HP Reverb, 2080Ti, i3-8350k at 4.6, and 32GB RAM at 3200. Unlike some (many ?) personally I didn't notice any performance improvement in VR with the newest IL2 engine, but I admit I didn't test thoroughly because I kindof gave up on VR at least for now. I realized how hard it is for any flight-simulator to drive 2 separate 2K monitors at 90fps each, which is required to provide smooth experience with HP Reverb. To reach that fps target for me would require an enormous and unrealistic leap in performance (basically a jump from my current ~60fps to a solid 90fps). And unlike some I am not willing to drastically degrade my graphics quality in an attempt to reach the desired fps, because even with the Reverb the virtual world looks much blurrier and low-res compared to my current 4k monitor.

If you could hit 4.9 or so overclock you will get really nice performance in VR.

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The way I look at it, having more pixels is worth it because we can either upgrade our graphics cards or better software solutions will get more out of our existing hardware. The HMD is an investment. I'm hoping that with all the demand for VR headsets I can get an Index to tide me over until the Reverb G2 or another headset, then flip the Index without losing too much cash. Right now price gougers are making several hundred dollars per Index by flipping them on eBay.

 

An additional benefit of more pixels is that they display the image they're given to higher fidelity. The HP Reverb v1 doesn't need any supersample applied because the pixels are so small, same with the Pimax 8KX apparently. In the Pimax case there's in-depth testing being done using that other simulator, and the recommendation was that you need more total pixels rendered to make the 8k+ look good compared to the 8KX. Same thing might be true for the Reverb -- it's got such a high quality panel that you can even get away with some subsampling.

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I think it boils down to pixel density for a given FOV. The reverb has a relatively small FOV for 2160x2160. Increase the FOV and you need more pixels to maintain the same density.

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FOV of G2 will be the same, a little pity for me. I havent any tracking problem on my Reverb plus for my IPD this settings what we have now are ok, so perhaps I’ll stay with my Reverb:

 

Quote

- 600 USD
- Windows Mixed Reality
- Exact same index speakers
- Lenses designed by valve (but not same as index)
- Fresnel lenses
- Magnetic face gasket designed by valve (but not same as index)
- Fall release date, pre-orders available now
- Physical IPD Adjustment (60-68mm)
- Inside out tracking only, 4 cameras
- New controllers that are more similar to oculus touch controllers
- G2 Controllers can be sold separately & they are backwards-compatible with old WMR headsets (but old controllers are not compatible with the G2)
- Price for controllers only will be decided in 1-2 months
- Two 2160 x 2160 LCD Panels (brand new, better colors & contrast, reduced persistence, brighter)
- 90hz
- 6 meter cable
- 114° FOV
- Mura has been fixed
- Similar microphones to Reverb G1
- 1.21 lbs/550 grams (lighter than oculus quest & index)

 

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Well, I have just pre-ordered the Reverb G-2 on an European retailer. Expected arrival 24th-August. Price is 624€ plus VAT+shipping: 775€.

 

When last year I was comparing the Reverb and Index (https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/53603-valve-index-vs-hp-reverb-through-the-lens-pictures/) I was really close to keep the Reverb, but I didn´t.

 

I think the only way to know what device is best for you is just test it. So even if I loose some FOV and adjust distant to lens,  I will gain resolution and perhaps conmfort. My current Index is OK in comfort once you do a mod compensation.

 

I can always sell the one I don´t like.

 

Edited by chiliwili69
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47 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

Well, I have just pre-ordered the Reverb G-2 on an European retailer. Expected arrival 24th-August. Price is 599€ plus VAT: 725€.

 

When last year I was comparing the Reverb and Index (https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/53603-valve-index-vs-hp-reverb-through-the-lens-pictures/) I was really close to keep the Reverb, but I didn´t.

 

I think the only way to know what device is best for you is just test it. So even if I loose some FOV and adjust distant to lens,  I will gain resolution and perhaps conmfort. My current Index is OK in comfort once you do a mod compensation.

 

I can always sell the one I don´t like.

 

Where did you order the headset dude?

 

Cheers.

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9 hours ago, WheelwrightPL said:

I have HP Reverb, 2080Ti, i3-8350k at 4.6, and 32GB RAM at 3200. Unlike some (many ?) personally I didn't notice any performance improvement in VR with the newest IL2 engine, but I admit I didn't test thoroughly because I kindof gave up on VR at least for now. I realized how hard it is for any flight-simulator to drive 2 separate 2K monitors at 90fps each, which is required to provide smooth experience with HP Reverb. To reach that fps target for me would require an enormous and unrealistic leap in performance (basically a jump from my current ~60fps to a solid 90fps). And unlike some I am not willing to drastically degrade my graphics quality in an attempt to reach the desired fps, because even with the Reverb the virtual world looks much blurrier and low-res compared to my current 4k monitor.

Off topic, but this build confuses me. The absolute top end ($1200) GPU with a low end ($150) CPU, in a setting where CPU is nearly or as important as GPU. I have been running a 2080 and an i5 9600k for a year and a half, and I kind of wish I had traded more GPU for CPU in my spending. Maybe you do other stuff with the computer, I don't know.

 

On topic, I will be getting this headset unless something better comes along quickly. Not perfect, but the kind of incremental improvement that is worthwhile. I'm excited to upgrade to it!

 

That is, of course, if VR zoom is fixed. If not, I'll buy a good power tool instead and work on my house or my garden. Other hobbies are getting more interesting quickly.

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The experience with higher res headsets is that you can run them at lower SS resolutions as to not have to blow through the crap screen resolutions for distance clarity. 

 

The Pimax 8K-X is said to have very good clarity and at per eye render resolutions (Super Sampling) that is much lower than what is required for Pimax 8K or 5K headsets.  This means that today's hardware can still drive these headsets and the 8KX is 4K native per eye. 2160 x 2160 (narrower FOV) will be relatively easy to drive for a 2070 Super or higher GPU.

 

https://youtu.be/2GMXS5WXb44

 

Don't think you will have to driver higher res VR headsets at x times the SS of current as more than likely, you will get better image with just native res and some AA

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1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

Here:  https://www.derekenwinkel.nl/hp-reverb-g2-new-generation.html

 

It is the same page where I bought my HP Reverb last year.

 

Curious to hear what you think might improve with the G2? I ask seriously as I have considered it, but seems to be at least in the tech and image display department not

much has changed there over the original Reverb.

Two more cameras will help in tracking, not sure that is needed for flight sims.

Same resolution as Reverb.

Better audio. For me I prefer earbuds anyway.

Mechanical IPD adjustment. I myself have no problem not having one as my IPD is fairly common range.

Better Controllers - not used by IL-2.

 

Do you think the image clarity will be a lot better than original Reverb?

And if so, will that come with a higher performance hit over the Reverb?

Edited by dburne

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