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Game version 4.005 discussion: New airframe damage model


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3 hours ago, KW_1979 said:

Question for the Devs:  Any updates on the 109 stabilizer issue?

Whats wrong with it ? 

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69th_Mobile_BBQ
15 hours ago, Valkyrie77 said:

Why are the .50cals and the bombs so ineffective now?  Ruined the game for my 

 

13 hours ago, LLv24_Sukka24 said:

 

Because you are not hitting anything vital with those fiddy cals, simple as that. I don't have any problems with them. They are still very lethal especially if you hit at converge. Bombing requires more accuracy too.

 

^ Which is exactly why I advocate for separated horizontal and vertical convergence adjustment sliders.   Around 300 yards is the generally accepted best horizontal convergence for .50's (and other wing mounted guns too) but, around 500 - 600 yards vertical is needed too.  Currently, it sets identically for both convergences. It causes a lot of bullets to fall short in maneuvers where there is a considerable pitch-up motion on the nose.  The shots should "look" right, but the shortened angle on the vertical convergence doesn't "reach".

 

Meanwhile, centerline gun configurations that don't need horizontal convergence can use the adjustment to "up angle" their guns as far as they need to comfortably shoot with less G-pull in a similar deflection shooting situation.  

 

This probably explains why some pilots whose nose appears to be "too low" when they are turning behind you are still getting direct hits on their target.

 

6 hours ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

I think anyone with a reasonably strong understanding of combustion engine design and function will also understand that it is absolutely possible to cause both a critical failure or not based on bullet placement and chance alone. I have seen engines running with dropped cylinders and a hole through the block. Mind you they didn't run well and were not long for this world. 

 

I bet it vibrated like hell though.  lol    

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Roland_HUNter
9 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

 

^ Which is exactly why I advocate for separated horizontal and vertical convergence adjustment sliders.   Around 300 yards is the generally accepted best horizontal convergence for .50's (and other wing mounted guns too) but, around 500 - 600 yards vertical is needed too.  Currently, it sets identically for both convergences. It causes a lot of bullets to fall short in maneuvers where there is a considerable pitch-up motion on the nose.  The shots should "look" right, but the shortened angle on the vertical convergence doesn't "reach".

 

Meanwhile, centerline gun configurations that don't need horizontal convergence can use the adjustment to "up angle" their guns as far as they need to comfortably shoot with less G-pull in a similar deflection shooting situation.  

 

This probably explains why some pilots whose nose appears to be "too low" when they are turning behind you are still getting direct hits on their target.

 

 

I bet it vibrated like hell though.  lol    

Personally I don't like the vertical convergence, so if it would possible I wouldn't use it.
I made several topic in the past, when are we ll see this oppurtinity in the game. :) But I got no official answer.

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Voodoo-BlackDog
22 hours ago, Birdman said:

Not sure what the value is, these will show only the successful engagements. You can't base a judgment on that.

Multiplayer community dying because of the poor update 

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6 minutes ago, Valkyrie77 said:

Multiplayer community dying because of the poor update 

 

You can't just say random things because you don't like the update. When you make a statement back it up otherwise it's worthless.

 

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14 hours ago, ACG_KoN said:

Whats wrong with it ? 

I think he means that the DM for the 109 tail was turned off temporarily until they fix an issue.

 

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1 hour ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

I think he means that the DM for the 109 tail was turned off temporarily until they fix an issue.

 

Just the structural part of the vertical stabilizer, the Rudder, Elevators and horizontal parts still fly off as required when I shoot them.

 

With fixing the leading edge structure of the vertical stabilizer, the devs will also have to have the skins updated to match the changes in the DM and it's effect on the 109.

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1 hour ago, Birdman said:

 

You can't just say random things because you don't like the update. When you make a statement back it up otherwise it's worthless.

 

It’s total BS by the numbers. Combat box mission player numbers are nearly identical to the beginning of the month, for example. TAW too. 

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=FEW=Hauggy
18 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

 

Like how the hell did we not get this with Battle of Kuban, this is beyond me.

I wonder if the German subs can even dive in the game, I've always seen them above the surface.

One day maybe we'll be able to sink ships online with proper sea worthy weapons. 

Or to fly an I-153 to attack German convoys in the Caucasus mountains.

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26 minutes ago, =FEW=Hauggy said:

I wonder if the German subs can even dive in the game, I've always seen them above the surface.

 

 

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69th_Mobile_BBQ
9 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Personally I don't like the vertical convergence, so if it would possible I wouldn't use it.
I made several topic in the past, when are we ll see this oppurtinity in the game. :) But I got no official answer.

 

Well, If you're using a plane with centerline configured guns, even if you leave the game setting at default 400m, you still are using a vertical convergence of 400m.  So, I kind of don't understand your point.  

 

The separated Horiz / Vert convergences would benefit wing mounted gun configurations.  This change would include MORE adjustment flexibility for all planes with wing guns, including gun pods, for both sides.  

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10 hours ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

I think he means that the DM for the 109 tail was turned off temporarily until they fix an issue.

 

oh i see , that makes sense as ive been complaing about the P51 rudder and elevator being weak . Did not even know that was a thing . 

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Blackmessiah1975

Is this proper physics for this plane?

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BqWyuDDIshEkvO1Vb_VV-iwB039AaNnk/view?usp=sharing

 

 

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69th_Mobile_BBQ

I have a question.  

 

I don't know of any way that I can test it or be able to look and see but,  something seems off about the P-51 guns.  Not the .50's, but the configuration.

For some reason it seems to me that only the 2 outboard guns are actually hitting anything in a proper convergence shot.  All the guns fire but, only the farthest left and farthest right are the only ones emitting projectiles.  

 

I'm probably wrong, but that is what I think I'm seeing.  Can anybody help confirm or debunk this?  

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216th_Jordan
1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

I have a question.  

 

I don't know of any way that I can test it or be able to look and see but,  something seems off about the P-51 guns.  Not the .50's, but the configuration.

For some reason it seems to me that only the 2 outboard guns are actually hitting anything in a proper convergence shot.  All the guns fire but, only the farthest left and farthest right are the only ones emitting projectiles.  

 

I'm probably wrong, but that is what I think I'm seeing.  Can anybody help confirm or debunk this?  

 

How do you see that? A quick test would be to record a track of a QMB mission with weapons interface on, shooting at a surely hittable target with a short sqeeze of the trigger. Then compare number of hits in the track with the number of rounds shown on the interface.

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Voodoo-BlackDog
1 hour ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

How do you see that? A quick test would be to record a track of a QMB mission with weapons interface on, shooting at a surely hittable target with a short sqeeze of the trigger. Then compare number of hits in the track with the number of rounds shown on the interface.

Agreed most of the tracers go through the aircraft without impacting. Looks like a bug. 
maybe why the .50’s are so bad 

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69th_Mobile_BBQ
21 minutes ago, Valkyrie77 said:

Agreed most of the tracers go through the aircraft without impacting. Looks like a bug. 
maybe why the .50’s are so bad 

 

Maybe that's what I think I'm seeing.  Like I said, I could be wrong.   Maybe the bullets that are passing though the aircraft aren't even poking holes as they go.

I was using He-111s to park behind with the 51 and shoot.  The 2 outboard guns seemed to hit and the 4 inboard guns seemed to "ghost" through the target.  

 

Unfortunately, I think visual testing can only result in 'hints' of what I might think is happening.  There has to be a real way to test it to make sure it's working right.  

4 minutes ago, SixGuns said:

@DD_Arthur and @DD_fruitbat 

 

Gentlemen, thank you for these video's - They prove to cheap people who are complaining all the time about anything on this forum should think twice before posting.

 

"Knowledge is like peanut butter, less you have the more you spread it" 

 

Well, Axis-only player participation the forum would reduce enough to kill the franchise if that happened.  😁

Edited by 69th_Mobile_BBQ
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Gents,

Quick question. After the last update I could hear rounds hitting my airframe, but since one of the latest patches, I no longer hear any impact noise. 

Therefore, anybody else experiencing this?

 

I actually enjoyed hearing the 50cals hitting the airframe as it is just how it was described in the Me262 book that I'm reading. The pilot said it sounded like stones being thrown onto a metal roof!

 

Regards

 

 

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SAS_Storebror
6 hours ago, DD_fruitbat said:

I'm not really feeling the 50's being as bad as many people seem to be saying???

Would love to know your convergency setting.

Seems I need to pull about 3 times as much lead as you do in that video when using 400m convergency.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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DD_fruitbat
1 hour ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Would love to know your convergency setting.

Seems I need to pull about 3 times as much lead as you do in that video when using 400m convergency.

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

Hi, i use 200m, mainly because i always have done since the original il2!

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69th_Mobile_BBQ

One thing I am noticing is that damage decals around the cockpit area must not be all that accurate.   .50 cal. holes that would appear to go into the cockpit and straight into the pilot's torso seem to have no effect.  Considering that a .50 wound to the upper torso would rarely be survivable and to the lower would be a severely weakening wound with little time left to live, I find this dubious at best.

I don't recall the 109 being the inspiration for the A-10's "bath tub" pilot armor...

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9 hours ago, DD_fruitbat said:

I'm not really feeling the 50's being as bad as many people seem to be saying???

 

 

I can tell you now them type of kills are not working or happening in Multiplayer , Can you  try in multiplayer . ?

Please go onto Combat- BOX and try . 

Also whats your settings in single player . 

Ill drop down too 200m as i was at 250m now at 600m for lead .

Just to say how it is , I seen a P51 and a P38 and a spitfire on the tail of an A8 and that plane got away and got home . Now thats three online pilots all taking it in turns on that poor guy . But he got home .

Now im Axis pilot and  Im all for the 190 being tough and the  20mm being better just like it was in history . 

But there is some thing off with 50cal but your video shows easy kills that i don`t see in multiplayer , man that`s like a one second squirt on trigger .  Very odd . 

 

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DD_fruitbat
1 hour ago, ACG_KoN said:

I can tell you now them type of kills are not working or happening in Multiplayer , Can you  try in multiplayer . ?

Please go onto Combat- BOX and try . 

Also whats your settings in single player . 

Ill drop down too 200m as i was at 250m now at 600m for lead .

Just to say how it is , I seen a P51 and a P38 and a spitfire on the tail of an A8 and that plane got away and got home . Now thats three online pilots all taking it in turns on that poor guy . But he got home .

Now im Axis pilot and  Im all for the 190 being tough and the  20mm being better just like it was in history . 

But there is some thing off with 50cal but your video shows easy kills that i don`t see in multiplayer , man that`s like a one second squirt on trigger .  Very odd . 

 

 

I cannot say on combat box, but i am not noticing any differences in the co-ops i take part in twice a week with my squad, I'm getting plenty of kills the same, online in both the 38 and 51. I will take some more vid from online tomorrow night when we fly.

 

Regardless, if what you say is true, that becomes an online issue 8n conjunction with the 50's rather than a 50's issue itself.

Edited by DD_fruitbat
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6./ZG26_Custard
15 minutes ago, DD_fruitbat said:

 

I cannot say on combat box

Flying on Combat box in a 110 and being on the receiving end of. 50cals I can certainly say they seem more than effective to me. 

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3 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Flying on Combat box in a 110 and being on the receiving end of. 50cals I can certainly say they seem more than effective to me. 

Flying on a tail of a 110 seems a death trap ..lol . Its a circle that goes round and round . One side says one thing the other says another . 

Seems there some strange goings on in multiplayer . 

A 110 shot down, i  land , no log , no kill . Very odd . Cant make records as this makes fps drop in combat-box so ive heard . Any truth in this . ? 

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6 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

One thing I am noticing is that damage decals around the cockpit area must not be all that accurate.   .50 cal. holes that would appear to go into the cockpit and straight into the pilot's torso seem to have no effect.  Considering that a .50 wound to the upper torso would rarely be survivable and to the lower would be a severely weakening wound with little time left to live, I find this dubious at best.

I don't recall the 109 being the inspiration for the A-10's "bath tub" pilot armor...

It is a general problem with most if not all aircraft in the game. As far as my time with BoX goes, the decals don`t show hits placement at all, just the general damage textures, including the holes in canopy (both from 1st and 3rd person perspective).  It probably doesn`t even differentiate between penetration and non penetration hits. The more hits placed, obviously, the less  accurate the decals are - it creates an image of machinegun ammo being ineffective. An HE hit to the remote area of the canopy causes holes in it most of the times. Who knows what this means for the target - is it gauge damaging or wounded pilot or a ricochet.

 

Obviously we are missing the feature from old IL2 that shows projectile trajectory and damage dealth. Anyone who`s been killed many times can say that a direct cockpit hit will have consequences (destroyed armored plate, light - heavy wound, gauge table damaged, shockwave effect, broken controls). Goes to show that the actual DM is not proportional to the graphical DM, as in much more detailed.

 

16 hours ago, DD_fruitbat said:

I'm not really feeling the 50's being as bad as many people seem to be saying???

Not bad at all. Though we should be able to set box convergence on the wing guns. P47/P51 lose out on this in many instances. The fifties on the P38 almost seem like a different weapon for this reason.

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28 minutes ago, ACG_KoN said:

Cant make records as this makes fps drop in combat-box so ive heard . Any truth in this . ? 

 Not true.

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Eisenfaustus
18 minutes ago, Valkyrie77 said:

Are we going to get a hot fix to fix these problems? 

If it is a problem...

there are the same 3 guys telling everyone a thousand times.50s are too weak and another 3 guys replying regularly everything is fine...

 

Consensus seems to be in SP is everything as it should. So it seems to be a netcode problem- not a dm problem. 

 

I guess fixing netcode is major task for future updates - not a minor tweak for the dm patch that could be part of a hotfix. 

 

Speaking for SP only player: right now all the guns seem to deal damage in a more realistic way than ever before and a tweaking dm in a way that'd turn HMG into deathrays in SP would be immersionkilling for me. 

 

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1 hour ago, Valkyrie77 said:

Are we going to get a hot fix to fix these problems? 

 

What problems? You keep griping and moaning about how this updated is bugged, but for some reason you refuse to say what exactly the problem is.

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BraveSirRobin
11 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

What problems? You keep griping and moaning about how this updated is bugged, but for some reason you refuse to say what exactly the problem is.


“All of them” wasn’t clear enough to you?  🙄

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19 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

What problems? You keep griping and moaning about how this updated is bugged, but for some reason you refuse to say what exactly the problem is.

Maybe it would help if @Valkyrie77 would post his convergence setting for .50cals and at what distance he is trying to shoot at the target.

 

I set mine for P40, P39, P47, P51 and also Spits at 120m and I wait till the plane I am firing on fills half the sight area, at least.  German and VVS center line firing guns I set to 150m

 

I hear of people setting 200 or even 400m which is quite far away.  Might be good for ground pounding but for air to air combat against single engined fighters, the target is quite small at those distances (this for me at least even in VR).  Even with 120m, I can fire at further distance if I think I'll hit but 200m, even bombers.

 

Center line firing guns, one can be more successful at distance sniping but even then it is only with the MG as I hate to waste cannon ammo.

 

We do not have Incendiary Rounds modeled yet which will make a difference for US aircraft loadouts and for the 109 - try to aim a bit more along the fuselage, when they are jinking or turning.  More towards the cockpit and engine - they go down.

 

Wish the tail on the 110 wasn't so precious but, I just have to pay more attention online to enemy fighters when I am attacking ground targets. 👍😄

 

OH, and folks - QMB is cute and easy quick flying for people but don't give grief about AI unless you are using scripted missions like 10 Days in Autumn or flying a Pilot Career with take off from Runway selected in the options.  AI difference compared to QMB is quite substantial.

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BlitzPig_EL

I regularly fly against AI online in the missions I run for the BlitzPigs, as well as human flown aircraft.  In the Mustang I have no issues taking down FW190S, Stukas, any of the German multi engine aircraft, or E7s.  Macchi 202s are relatively tough, but they were well built, hand crafted aircraft, no issue with that.

 

The 109s, from F to K, are significantly harder to kill, and take far more ammo to do so.  However, right now they have some areas of their DM disabled, so all we can do is wait till that is sorted out.

 

I have my convergence set to 250 meters, as I have used that setting for almost 20 years.  From what I am seeing in the various videos that have been posted, there are a lot of virtual pilots that simply are not good shots, and are unable, or unwilling, to admit it.

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I fully admit that my gunnery is crap. I haven't had the opportunity to get all that many rounds into enemy aircraft since the patch. But I have done enough now that the new complexities of the damage model are apparent.

On Berloga yesterday I fought quite a few aircraft but only got hits on two. One was a FW-190A I hit with several bursts from 300 m to about 200 m . After the first hit he was streaming fuel, the second batch of hits prompted some unstable flying and bits falling off the plane, and the third hits on his wings and fuselage prompted him to bail out as he lost control.

The second craft was a 109. He came in too fast and I was able to barrel roll out of the way, but he turned hard after me. With a bit of luck I was able to get force him into a head on pass, when I landed one or two bullets into his engine. He started smoking lightly. His engine did not die but his speed did, and he was less able to accelerate and climb, to the point where I began to gain energy on him despite it being basically a low altitude turn fight. A snap shot got some rounds into his wings and from that point on I was able to turn with him even at low speed.

So the more detailed damage to the engines and the better modeling of induced drag and maneuverability problems from skin damage can really change the game. 

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Voodoo-BlackDog
2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

What problems? You keep griping and moaning about how this updated is bugged, but for some reason you refuse to say what exactly the problem is.

.50 calls ineffective, 

bombs ineffective 

allied aircraft unflyable after sustaining little  damage. 
Luftwaffe aircraft soaking up tremendous damage and still flying and fighting. 
110 over performing 

47 underperforming 

some .50 cal rounds going through objects without damaging it. 

 

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More than 12 MK108 rounds to the left wing of mustang and the wing still holds together. (and it didnt break even when she was spinning to the ground)

The whole mustang is more sturdy than B25.

After this recent patch I was unable to shot off wing from the mustang yet and 12 rounds its too much imho.

 

 

 

 

 

P51wings1.jpg

P51wings2.jpg

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14 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

More than 12 MK108 rounds to the left wing of mustang and the wing still holds together. (and it didnt break even when she was spinning to the ground)

The whole mustang is more sturdy than B25.

After this recent patch I was unable to shot off wing from the mustang yet and 12 rounds its too much imho.

 

 

 

 

 

P51wings1.jpg

P51wings2.jpg

 

How do you know 12 rounds hit the wing?

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