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Game version 4.005 discussion: New airframe damage model


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19 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

More than 12 MK108 rounds to the left wing of mustang and the wing still holds together. (and it didnt break even when she was spinning to the ground)


But can you do it again?!

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21 minutes ago, Birdman said:

 

How do you know 12 rounds hit the wing?

 

I counted explosions of the rounds and after 10  I stopped. In the video is clearly noticeable  how multiple rounds hitting the wing.

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So you hit it with a burst of 30mm, but you don’t know exactly how many or where exactly.  And it then burst into flames and crashed.  And you’re upset the wing didn’t come off too?  Seriously, go fly a 51 in multiplayer and see what it’s like on the receiving end of those 30mm’s.  Spoiler alert: if you get hit with 20’s or 30’s, you’re going down.

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19 minutes ago, Tipsi said:


But can you do it again?!

 

previously I hit another mustang in Me262 with 4 rounds to the right wing without even loosing an aileron . She started loosing  fuel from the wing.

And yeah in multiple quick missions with 109k I hit mustangs with multiple 30mm rounds to the wings. Only to loose ailerons or they started to loose fluid or started to burn.

 

 

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1 minute ago, KW_1979 said:

So you hit it with a burst of 30mm, but you don’t know exactly how many or where exactly.  And it then burst into flames and crashed.  And you’re upset the wing didn’t come off too?  Seriously, go fly a 51 in multiplayer and see what it’s like on the receiving end of those 30mm’s.  Spoiler alert: if you get hit with 20’s or 30’s, you’re going down.

You can clearly count almost every hit in the video. one round hit the tip of the wing and the rest hit the root of the wing.

The mustang was finished, thats ok, but it seems strange that the wing can withstand such punishment from the 30mm rounds.

 

1 minute ago, kendo said:

Is this before or after 4.005d when they 'fixed' the extra wing spar on the Mustang?

recent patch, I played this  evening

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This clearly looks like a ping related problem. I just recalled exactly same arguments in WT forum a few years ago and I was one of the complainers too. Sometimes 50cals killed enemies instantly but mostly very large amount of ammo was needed for a single kill, and single hits didn't do any damage at all. One of the devs stated this is a ping related problem so i tested this more and found out he was right. When I was playing in US servers, ping arount 160ms, I had hard time killing anything and in the Euroservers, around 55ms, planes were destroyed very quickly.

 

So, I think in MP this problem has been around all the time, but hidden inside the weaker DM, as fewer registered hits were needed to de-wing a plane, for example. If this is true, I don't know if things can really be improved, except choosing a better server. Buffing damage of weapons would improve high latency servers, but ruin SP and faster servers. 😐

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25 minutes ago, Horna said:

This clearly looks like a ping related problem. I just recalled exactly same arguments in WT forum a few years ago and I was one of the complainers too. Sometimes 50cals killed enemies instantly but mostly very large amount of ammo was needed for a single kill, and single hits didn't do any damage at all. One of the devs stated this is a ping related problem so i tested this more and found out he was right. When I was playing in US servers, ping arount 160ms, I had hard time killing anything and in the Euroservers, around 55ms, planes were destroyed very quickly.

 

So, I think in MP this problem has been around all the time, but hidden inside the weaker DM, as fewer registered hits were needed to de-wing a plane, for example. If this is true, I don't know if things can really be improved, except choosing a better server. Buffing damage of weapons would improve high latency servers, but ruin SP and faster servers. 😐

Its from the singleplayer mission. I dont play MP

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-=PHX=-SuperEtendard

@Voidhunger I think it has to do with the low fragmentation of the mine 30mm, that type of round basically tears the skin off the surface but hard structural elements such as the spars wouldn't be that much damaged by the explosion blast unless it's a direct hit. Anyway the 30mm causes massive lift and aerodynamic penalty so it's enough to bring them down with a couple hits. If you want to see a higher structural catastrophic damage I guess the high fragmentation Soviet 37mm would do a better job at that, while being worse at causing skin damage given it's lower amount of explosives.

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Bilbo_Baggins

DM has had some great work put into it, but it's easy to forget that the visual representation really does not equal the big drag and other damage induced. I think there are just so many things that could potentially go wrong with one of these machines getting hit that it's gotta be near impossible to model for now.

 

Check out this P47 painted in oil from an AA hit in the motor:

 

P-47-Lt-Edwin-King-flak-caused-oil-leak-Italy-Jan45_zpsea4a5307.jpg.02883d6995e0b4d6dd1942c858b63406.jpgThe-Most-Badass-Aircraft-2.thumb.jpg.55572108a01aa29df04e922eba2c4bc1.jpg

 

 

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins
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=VARP=Ribbon
3 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

DM has had some great work put into it, but it's sometimes easy to forget that the visual representation really does not equal the big drag and other damage induced. There is just so much wrong that could go wrong with one of these machines getting hit and that has gotta be near impossible to model for now.

 

Check out this P47 painted in oil from an AA hit in the motor:

 

P-47-Lt-Edwin-King-flak-caused-oil-leak-Italy-Jan45_zpsea4a5307.jpg.02883d6995e0b4d6dd1942c858b63406.jpgThe-Most-Badass-Aircraft-2.thumb.jpg.55572108a01aa29df04e922eba2c4bc1.jpg

 

 

 

UV protective, polarized Ray Ban

canopy😎

 

On 4/24/2020 at 11:51 PM, DD_Arthur said:

 

 

Thnx for the link, would have miss it otherwise! 👍

Edited by EAF_Ribbon
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Just now, Ouky1991 said:

Wow, thats like 1000$ and less than an hour on most of them? Thats just wasting money man.

 

Yes, I'm afraid so too. But I've kept hoping since LOMAC.

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Bilbo_Baggins
On 4/28/2020 at 4:24 AM, Voidhunger said:

 

I counted explosions of the rounds and after 10  I stopped. In the video is clearly noticeable  how multiple rounds hitting the wing.

 

Voidhunger, couldn't find a link to the video. Could you post it again please? Cheers 

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16 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Voidhunger, couldn't find a link to the video. Could you post it again please? Cheers 

I didnt posted it. it has 300-500mb, with my conection it will take forever to upload it and I also dont know where to upload.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Voidhunger
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1 minute ago, Voidhunger said:

yes, for me links work just fine

 

Yes, they probably work for you if you are logged in the vimeo account. I went to the links you posted and removed everything from the URL up to the user ID. That's how I got to your vimeo front page, and could access the videos.

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Just now, Raven109 said:

 

Yes, they probably work for you if you are logged in the vimeo account. I went to the links you posted and removed everything from the URL up to the user ID. That's how I got to your vimeo front page, and could access the videos.

ok thanks

 

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I could be misinterpreting the explosion effects but to me it seems there's 4-5 hits in the wing and 1 in the elevator.

 

The plane is totally toast regardless and we need to keep in mind the visual representation doesn't match the exact damage done. It's quite possible the wing would have parted ways with the plane at the first high G maneuver.

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2 minutes ago, Birdman said:

I could be misinterpreting the explosion effects but to me it seems there's 4-5 hits in the wing and 1 in the elevator.

 

The plane is totally toast regardless and we need to keep in mind the visual representation doesn't match the exact damage done. It's quite possible the wing would have parted ways with the plane at the first high G maneuver.

there are defintively more hits, but even 4-5 hits should have broke the wing.

Dmg decals are ok, i know the limitation of the game(games), but if its not possible to shot of wings even with 30mm something is wrong imho.

 

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13 minutes ago, Birdman said:

I could be misinterpreting the explosion effects but to me it seems there's 4-5 hits in the wing and 1 in the elevator.

 

The plane is totally toast regardless and we need to keep in mind the visual representation doesn't match the exact damage done. It's quite possible the wing would have parted ways with the plane at the first high G maneuver.

That's what it looks like to me too. The explosion animations in slow motion go on for a little bit of time so it's hard to say how many.

Regardless, as you said the plane is dead, maybe the wing didn't come off this time but he's on fire and in an uncontrollable plane. Dead is dead. 

I have seen 262s knock wings off mustangs, P-38s and P-47s since the last patch so its clearly not impossible to do so. There is by necessity a certain randomness to the damage so you won't get reliable damage effects from the same number of hits. 

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9 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

there are defintively more hits, but even 4-5 hits should have broke the wing.

Dmg decals are ok, i know the limitation of the game(games), but if its not possible to shot of wings even with 30mm something is wrong imho.

 

It is totally possible to shoot the wing off with the 30mm. See the video below:

 

It's difficult to declare the DM is wrong because you didn't get the results you wanted with a test sample of 1.

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26 minutes ago, Birdman said:

It is totally possible to shoot the wing off with the 30mm. See the video below:

 

It's difficult to declare the DM is wrong because you didn't get the results you wanted with a test sample of 1.

its a tip of a wing, anyway I like the new dmg model.

I was only surprised how many 30mm rounds wing can take without breaking off.

Plane was dead no question about it, but its nice to see some parts of the plane destroyed.

And it wasnt one sample, this was the extreme one.

 

I tried to dewing B25 with me 262 and even if you try hitting only the wing, it was impossible to dewing it in the middle or in the root. (only the tip of the wing on some occasions).

When you hit B25 with many hits to the wing it just explode.

On some occasions bomber lost wing when exploded.

 

EDIT: but apparently you all are satisfied with the wings dmg model, so just ignore me.

Edited by Voidhunger
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6./ZG26_Custard
39 minutes ago, Birdman said:

The plane is totally toast regardless

The P-51 is well and truly dead after 2 hits. You can see a lick of flame developing on the second hit. I know lots of folks expect spectacular results but you don't always get them even in the real world. 

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5 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The P-51 is well and truly dead after 2 hits. You can see a lick of flame developing on the second hit. I know lots of folks expect spectacular results but you don't always get them even in the real world. 

Any time I set a guy on fire I consider it spectacular!

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5 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The P-51 is well and truly dead after 2 hits. You can see a lick of flame developing on the second hit. I know lots of folks expect spectacular results but you don't always get them even in the real world. 

So if the plane is toast after two hits as you say, why the wing must be so sturdy.

I would rather see different outcome if the plane is dead anyway.

Why we have breakable wings you cannot break with so many hits with 30mm.

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6./ZG26_Custard
3 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

So if the plane is toast after two hits as you say, why the wing must be so sturdy.

One of your shots hits the wing near the tip, the other takes off the flap and causes a fire the 3rd blows off the horizontal tail plane. You originally stated that the wing took 12 hits? Knocking out an aircraft with 1 round and blowing off a wing are still possible.  

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7 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

So if the plane is toast after two hits as you say, why the wing must be so sturdy.

I would rather see different outcome if the plane is dead anyway.

Why we have breakable wings you cannot break with so many hits with 30mm.

 

There's more than the wings to a plane, I don't understand the fixation with de-winging.

 

What do you mean you want to see different outcomes ? Scripted effects after a plane is shot down?

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2 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

One of your shots hits the wing near the tip, the other takes off the flap and causes a fire the 3rd blows off the horizontal tail plane.

I also count three (3) hits in the video provided.

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Just now, Diggun said:

I also count three (3) hits in the video provided.

And everybody is still so damned fixated to shoot off a wing on a P 51. 
I flown all planes and before the latest patch I felt the P 51 was alone in a believable dm. It got shot down just as many times. But not instant detachment like th P 38. I find the dm in general to be more in line with what we see in gun cams. These 30 mm is still killers

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15 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

One of your shots hits the wing near the tip, the other takes off the flap and causes a fire the 3rd blows off the horizontal tail plane. You originally stated that the wing took 12 hits? Knocking out an aircraft with 1 round and blowing off a wing are still possible.  

No way, there are more hits than 3.

You can clearly see many small hits developing into bigger ones. Coming from the tip into the root of the wing. Also from the sound of impacts you can hear many many rounds hitting the wing).

And there the punishment continues with another bunch of hits into the root of the wing. (but its hard to see from this video)  and later into the elevator.

My point is if the plane is already toast after some hits to the wing (extreme drag or fire, why the wing must be so sturdy.

There are accounts blowing off wings of B17 with a few hits or with just one round (Pe2).

 

the elevator itself took 3-4 hits

10 minutes ago, Diggun said:

I also count three (3) hits in the video provided.

 

Ok, Im giving up

Edited by Voidhunger
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16 minutes ago, Birdman said:

 

There's more than the wings to a plane, I don't understand the fixation with de-winging.

 

What do you mean you want to see different outcomes ? Scripted effects after a plane is shot down?

I think people just got really attached to the catastrophic kills we were seeing very frequently. They're flashy and fun to watch. 

People keep chasing me online when I am already streaming  every kind of fluid and spinning earthward, pumping more  cannon rounds into me until a wing or tail comes off. Sometimes they keep shooting me even when I'm on fire. 

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1 hour ago, Birdman said:

 

There's more than the wings to a plane, I don't understand the fixation with de-winging.

 

What do you mean you want to see different outcomes ? Scripted effects after a plane is shot down?

 

NO,

now its dmg believable for machine guns or 20mm cannons (although La5 cannon rounds even with all HE shells seems to me too weak) and I like it.

Wings were too weak before.

But Mk108 rounds (from many missions in qmb) seems to me too weak, not in ability to shot down or disable plane (usually 1 or 2 rounds are enough to disable any plane), but in dewinging fighters. You all are saying it doesnt matter, the plane is dead, but for me visual representation of dmg model its part of the fun.

Now its even more noticeable that the game has hit boxes. You need to pump x 30mm rounds to dewing a plane.

Before even when the wings were weak, it was possible to shot off tip of the wing, half of the wing, whole wing, sometimes there was fire or it didnt brake off at all and it was believable for 30mm round imho.

 

I have tested 37mm cannon in Airacobra and with just one round it is possible to dewing Me109.

 

 

 

Edited by Voidhunger
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That's interesting - then maybe you can contact the people complaining that the 37mm was nerfed and is completely ineffectual now and cheer them up at least!

 

1 hour ago, Voidhunger said:
2 hours ago, Birdman said:

t's difficult to declare the DM is wrong because you didn't get the results you wanted with a test sample of 1.

 

its a tip of a wing, anyway I like the new dmg model.

I was only surprised how many 30mm rounds wing can take without breaking off.

Plane was dead no question about it, but its nice to see some parts of the plane destroyed.

And it wasnt one sample, this was the extreme one.

 

So, do you mean from that that this is an outlier and usually you do see wings come off after a few hits? I don't understand?

 

 

Edited by kendo
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23 minutes ago, kendo said:

That's interesting - then maybe you can contact the people complaining that the 37mm was nerfed and is completely ineffectual now and cheer them up at least!

 

 

So, do you mean from that that this is an outlier and usually you do see wings come off after a few hits? I don't understand?

 

 

I tried only one mission and shot off half of the wing in two Bf109g6 in a turn with just one round.

Maybe there were both lucky hits I dont know, but I was not lucky with Mk108 yet with multiple rounds.

 

And from my testing against B25, its possible to shot off tip of the wing and not the bigger part of the wing without massive explosion of the bomber. (in normal gameplay).

So I think that the tips are much easier to shot off.

 

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jojy47jojyrocks

The damage model still needs some refining. Its good so far. But the some of the effects on AI planes need to addressed.

 

I have AI following after me in top speed or flying long duration even when they have dark grayish and white smoke coming out their plane.🤨

 

But when I have dark grayish smoke coming out and limp back home...mostly due to engine oil coolant problems or engine problem itself. My engine fails halfway overheating and have to crash-land at our side of the line. But for some reason even when I do land at FRIENDLY airbase...it says int he debrief on the next sortie screen, that I lost the plane. But my AI teammates don't have this problem landing at different friendly bases.

 

I don't know how the AI planes get a free pass even when I do manage to damage their planes so bad that they got dark grayish smoke coming out and white as well. They still most of the time stay in the fight, still making tight G turns and power maneuvers. They also can limp back home safe long durations.😑

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69th_Mobile_BBQ
16 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I think people just got really attached to the catastrophic kills we were seeing very frequently. They're flashy and fun to watch. 
 

 

I agree.  Some of my favorite kills happen when I get a good volley on the plane and it appears that it didn't do anything.  10 seconds later and the enemy plane has obviously "given up on life" and takes it's lazy time into the ground.  

 

Doesn't happen so much in MP because everybody who thinks they can get a kill by scraping the last bit of meat off of the carcass will swoop in and justify it as "their" kill if the stats pages say so.  

 

I think everybody has run down an enemy and beat them up, just for somebody else to grab it when it's easy pickings.  Hell, some of the top stats guys OWE their high place entirely to those who actually put in the work.  Michelangelo painted it. Joe Nobody came along right as he was finishing and signed it.  

2 hours ago, jojy47jojyrocks said:

The damage model still needs some refining. Its good so far. But the some of the effects on AI planes need to addressed.

 

I have AI following after me in top speed or flying long duration even when they have dark grayish and white smoke coming out their plane.🤨

 

But when I have dark grayish smoke coming out and limp back home...mostly due to engine oil coolant problems or engine problem itself. My engine fails halfway overheating and have to crash-land at our side of the line. But for some reason even when I do land at FRIENDLY airbase...it says int he debrief on the next sortie screen, that I lost the plane. But my AI teammates don't have this problem landing at different friendly bases.

 

I don't know how the AI planes get a free pass even when I do manage to damage their planes so bad that they got dark grayish smoke coming out and white as well. They still most of the time stay in the fight, still making tight G turns and power maneuvers. They also can limp back home safe long durations.😑

 

If you're talking about campaign mode, if you return a plane so badly damaged it's a "write off", then you lose it.   If the enemy does the same, how would you realistically know?  It's not like the desk flyers back at the enemy airbase are going to radio the results to the desk flyers at your home base, after all.  

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