Virpil MongoosT-50CM2 base with Warthog grip

[von_Tom]

Tried my T-50CM2 base with the Warthog stick (7.5cm extension) for the first time today and it is... different.  Playing IL2 using the non-linear no-centre cam with heavy springs.  I tightened the heavy springs all the way down then released them 7 turns.

 

I've used the Warthog for 10 years so it is quite a difference in terms of muscle memory.  The Warthog has a wider range of movement and more equal stick force across the whole gimbal.    The T-50CM2 base feels light around the centre and smooth but the force really ramps up quickly - it feels like it gets "heavy" too quickly rather than being a smooth build-up of stick force.  That is no doubt a combination of cam and springs.

 

In some ways as it is now is great because once I hit the extra force needed to get full deflection I don't really push and I tend to ease off a bit - this made me keep a bit more energy and black out less.  I'd prefer having a heavier stick force around the centre though, just because it feels a touch light.

 

My initial reaction was "hmmm" but at the moment it feels weird and I expect that in a couple of days I'll appreciate it a lot more.

 

Those that have switched to MFG Crosswinds will understand the feeling - you switch over and think "I don't get it - what's so special about them?" then after a while you realise that everything in incrementally better than what you had before.  Smoother, easier, more precise and so on.

 

I'd like to know how others have their cam and springs set up.

 

von Tom

 

[VR-DriftaholiC]

I use the no center cams with increasing force (ava sim). I found a flaw that in one direction the force increases differently then the other. For me this is pulling back on the stick and moving it left. I took the cams out and polished them by hand with an aggressive scotch-brite then 1000 followed by 2000 to a mirror finish and it helped with some of the resistance I felt as the cams reached that point of very quickly increasing force. I then put the lightest roll axis spring in tightened all the way. This ends up being lighter then the Elevator like I'm told it is in real life. For the elevator axis I use the default spring and it's backed out 3 turns from max. I also have a 10cm long extension. I have the longer curved one on order.

 

I think it's pretty good, I can adjust the tension and sensitivity in game to have the ramp up in force about the same place that the aircraft will buffet and stall at the optimal turn speeds. Though I still think I preferred flying with my modified G940. Force feedback is hard to beat on a WW2 sim. I may switch back to that and only use the VPC CM2 for modern and space sims. I would pay dearly for a modern FFB stick like the Brunner if only it worked in this game.

 

I'm curious if you have the same flaw in the cam design as me where either direction has differing forces. I found this wasn't as apparent with the cams that have a soft center. Lighter springs seem to help mask the problem but I think there was a calculation error in the cam design. I can say it's not a flaw of the single cam per axis design because my Slaw rudder pedals work similarly and do not show the same problem.

 

I think if you want it to feel just like the warthog the cosmo sim with center would be the closest. 

 

Edit

More research and it seem's I'm not the only one. This is widespread and seems flaw in the design of those cams.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=261204

Edited February 17, 2020 by driftaholic

[von_Tom]

 

I'm not sure if I have that problem because I am still getting used to the different feel.  I'll try it later to see if I experience what you describe.  I kinda like the idea of equal force across the range of movement but I think the force ramping up quickly is a great way of reducing the stall but still allowing for panic to kick in if it needs to.  I also like the extra force because it feels more like I'd expect from a WWII fighter.

 

von Tom

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I use two different cams on x and y axies . Roll is linear and pitch progressively resistant towards limit. I think it best (exclude FF) and good mimick real thing. 10 cm extension.

[von_Tom]

2 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I use two different cams on x and y axies . Roll is linear and pitch progressively resistant towards limit. I think it best (exclude FF) and good mimick real thing. 10 cm extension.

 

For roll do you mean CosmoSim - No Center (Linear)

 

Which springs and how tight are they set?

 

von Tom

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

14 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

 

For roll do you mean CosmoSim - No Center (Linear)

 

Which springs and how tight are they set?

 

von Tom

No when I bought there were no cosmosim cams , roll - soft center , linear.  Springs soft. Tight - medium , I don't really feel much difference .

[von_Tom]

I’ve checked and I don’t feel any difference in force needed around the centre. It is obviously different to the Warthog because that uses a ball. 
 

I’ve stuck with the non-linear cams for pitch and roll but have eased off the tension on the roll.
 

I’m thinking to just play with that for a while as I’ve never flown any kind of plane and will

nevwr know what it feels like to fly a WWII fighter, so good enough is good enough. 
 

von Tom

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

27 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

I’ve checked and I don’t feel any difference in force needed around the centre. It is obviously different to the Warthog because that uses a ball. 
 

I’ve stuck with the non-linear cams for pitch and roll but have eased off the tension on the roll.
 

I’m thinking to just play with that for a while as I’ve never flown any kind of plane and will

nevwr know what it feels like to fly a WWII fighter, so good enough is good enough. 
 

von Tom

 

Check this

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3321565&postcount=1634

Edited February 17, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

12 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I use two different cams on x and y axies . Roll is linear and pitch progressively resistant towards limit. I think it best (exclude FF) and good mimick real thing. 10 cm extension.

 

My cam setup is exactly the same. 

[von_Tom]

 

 

I've tested a few combinations and my favourite in terms of subjective feel" is:

 

Pitch - non-linear soft centre, heavy spring tightened up then backed off 5 turns

 

Roll - non-linear no-centre, medium spring tightened up then back off 5 turns

 

I didn't like the soft centre for roll because there was a definite "bump" when feeding in pitch then roll.  I didn't like the linear cam for roll because it felt like it took less force to move once I got out of the middle.

 

Everyone is different I guess, and subjective taste may vary depending on extension length and so on.

 

von Tom

[Varibraun]

On 2/14/2020 at 6:30 AM, von_Tom said:

Tried my T-50CM2 base with the Warthog stick (7.5cm extension) for the first time today and it is... different.  Playing IL2 using the non-linear no-centre cam with heavy springs.  I tightened the heavy springs all the way down then released them 7 turns.

 

I've used the Warthog for 10 years so it is quite a difference in terms of muscle memory.  The Warthog has a wider range of movement and more equal stick force across the whole gimbal.    The T-50CM2 base feels light around the centre and smooth but the force really ramps up quickly - it feels like it gets "heavy" too quickly rather than being a smooth build-up of stick force.  That is no doubt a combination of cam and springs.

 

In some ways as it is now is great because once I hit the extra force needed to get full deflection I don't really push and I tend to ease off a bit - this made me keep a bit more energy and black out less.  I'd prefer having a heavier stick force around the centre though, just because it feels a touch light.

 

My initial reaction was "hmmm" but at the moment it feels weird and I expect that in a couple of days I'll appreciate it a lot more.

 

 

Hi @von_Tom I am just making this transition from the Warthog to the T-50CM2 base, but keeping the Warthog grip, and also had that "hmmm" moment deciding if I am happy with the switch after a decade of WH muscle memory.  I also ordered the 200mm gooseneck extension (was using a 100mm on the Warthog), but after experimenting through the weekend, I feel the Warthog grip is a little too top heavy for it because it seems to cause a bit "springy" feeling.  I am a little sad about this, but will hang on to it in case I change grips down the road (and to still try with the other cams).

 

So, right now I have switched back to the 100mm with the heavy spring and preinstalled soft center avia cams (backed off 5 turns on pitch and 10 turns on roll) which seems okay.  However, I haven't changed any cams yet, so I am wondering:

 

1) Where are you, @SCG_Fenris_Wolf, and @1PL-Husar-1Esk (and anyone else with the WH grip) with cams and springs a year after your original post? 

 

2) What are your in-game joystick X/Y deadzone & sensitivity settings?

 

Thanks to all for any help and advice. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Varibraun

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

@Varibraun 

1) Soft center on pitch axie was mistake ,I returned to my first setup, hard center pitch axie and soft on roll axie. Springs soft.

2) no deadzone , sensitivity default, 

I use medium and small extension together.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[ciderworm]

I guess it's a very personal thing - my setup is exactly what you didn't like (200mm gooseneck + CM2 + Warthog grip) Avia soft centre cams and (what feel like) medium spring tension in pitch & roll. Admittedly I didn't have 10 years muscle memory though?

 

I was getting paranoid regarding the uneven force saga, which I couldn't detect, to the extent I invited an ex RN pilot friend to test the setup. His verdict was not to change anything, in his opinion it feels like a BAE Hawk.

 

No dead zones.

Edited April 11, 2021 by ciderworm
extra info

[von_Tom]

3 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

Hi @von_Tom I am just making this transition from the Warthog to the T-50CM2 base, but keeping the Warthog grip, and also had that "hmmm" moment deciding if I am happy with the switch after a decade of WH muscle memory.

 

 

Great!

 

I changed to the no-centre Aviasim for roll, and soft centre Aviasim for pitch.  Strong springs tightened then released 7.

 

Much much better than a Warthog.

 

von Tom

[Varibraun]

3 hours ago, ciderworm said:

I guess it's a very personal thing - my setup is exactly what you didn't like (200mm gooseneck + CM2 + Warthog grip) Avia soft centre cams and (what feel like) medium spring tension in pitch & roll. Admittedly I didn't have 10 years muscle memory though?

 

I was getting paranoid regarding the uneven force saga, which I couldn't detect, to the extent I invited an ex RN pilot friend to test the setup. His verdict was not to change anything, in his opinion it feels like a BAE Hawk.

 

No dead zones.

 

Thank you for the response, that is great insight.  I really want to like it and far be it from me to argue with the RN.  So, maybe I need to give the 200mm another try, it very well could be I have been having the same hand position for so many years that the larger throw and higher grip position just won't feel right without more practice.  I kept feeling like I was over-correcting with it, which made me think it was "springy," but I didn't try it with the medium springs since I thought the heavy Warthog grip would require the heavy springs.

 

Also, if you don't mind me asking, how high is the top of your grip compared to your desktop (or from the floor)?

1 hour ago, von_Tom said:

Much much better than a Warthog.

 

Thank you, I appreciate the encouragement and can now tell it is definitely going to be for me too.  Today, I started switching out the cams for some experimenting and I tried the Cosmo, no center to just try out the furthest from what I had been using.  That actually felt like my Warthog, but much smoother/steadier.  I am not going to stay with that for IL2, but it was exciting to see the better function of the Virpil when I got back to the familiar motion (and it think those cams will be great with Elite Dangerous).

 

Are you still using the 75mm extension?

[von_Tom]

1 hour ago, Varibraun said:

 

Are you still using the 75mm extension?

Yes because it fits my desk setup and the need to remove my joystick via the desk mount.
 

In an ideal world I’d have a separate cockpit but I don’t think I could get THAT in the house without Mrs Tom noticing (especially as I’d ask her to put it together). 
 

von Tom

[Varibraun]

2 hours ago, von_Tom said:

Yes because it fits my desk setup and the need to remove my joystick via the desk mount.

 

Thank you - I am just trying to see if there is a trend with which springs seem the best based on which extensions.  I thought it interesting that @ciderworm is using medium springs with the 200mm.  So many choices...lol! 

[ciderworm]

Varibraun, the grey top hat nipple centre (there, I've said it!) is 280mm above the seat front edge, allows me to rest my forearm on my thigh (depends on the the rudder pedals are set though - mine are quite high. My guess is this is a bit lower than a typical WW2 fighter arrgt. 

 

Getting everything where you want it takes ages, as a first step I took measurements from my car! Not so useful for the joystick but great for pedals and throttle.

 

Hope this helps.

[Varibraun]

6 hours ago, ciderworm said:

Hope this helps.

 

Thank you - Actually it helps a lot.  Your height with the 200mm is almost exactly where my 100mm extension puts my WH nipple (touché!).  This probably partly explains the different "feel" when I have the 200mm extension mounted compared to your setup.

 

Unfortunately, I can't get mine any lower because I have already completely cut down the center mounting pole on my Wheelstand Pro.  I don't want to give up the WSP for another mounting bracket system because I use SimShaker with Buttkicker attached to the WSP to give vibration through the entire set of controls (which greatly helps the immersion for me in VR being able to truly feel the a/c in the stick, throttle, and pedals in addition to the Jetseat). 

 

I also appreciate your comment about our current mounting height being lower than most WW2 fighters.  When I first installed the 200mm and felt it was too high, I watched several in cockpit Youtube videos of the Spitfire, Hurricane, P-51 & P-47 and satisfied myself that it was likely in close to correct height for that era when compared to modern jet fighters.  That said, the extra 100mm gives it a very different feel with the larger "throw" at that height. 

 

I am going to to give it another go this week with different springs & cams.  However, since I also fly Elite Dangerous, my guess is that I will ultimately stick with the 100mm to maintain the familiar.  Time will tell...but I really appreciation the time you spent checking it out for me and responding here! 

[Varibraun]

8 hours ago, ciderworm said:

Varibraun, the grey top hat nipple centre (there, I've said it!) is 280mm above the seat front edge, allows me to rest my forearm on my thigh (depends on the the rudder pedals are set though

 

@dburne - I know you are using a VKB base, but based on your pervious photos, it got me wondering how high your grip sits from your seat edge with your 200mm extension?  Was that a height adjustment for you when you switched to the 200mm?  Thanks!

[dburne]

3 minutes ago, Varibraun said:

 

@dburne - I know you are using a VKB base, but based on your pervious photos, it got me wondering how high your grip sits from your seat edge with your 200mm extension?  Was that a height adjustment for you when you switched to the 200mm?  Thanks!

 

Well the height is very adjustable with my Monster Tech Mount.

I have it adjusted to where my arm is perpendicular to my body at about a 90 degree angle for comfort.

So it is quite comfortable for me whilst flying and moving my arm around.

 

[unlikely_spider]

20 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Well the height is very adjustable with my Monster Tech Mount.

I have it adjusted to where my arm is perpendicular to my body at about a 90 degree angle for comfort.

So it is quite comfortable for me whilst flying and moving my arm around.

 

See, this is what I don't quite get. I could theoretically lower my desk mount and get a longer extension (current stick model notwithstanding), but the way it is, my stick is already almost touching my lap. I can't move it further down. And if I moved the chair further back my arm would be awkwardly extended. Do all of you have a cutout in the front of the chair like cockpit seats do? Here's my setup - it's just a normal office chair:

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by unlikely_spider

[dburne]

No cutout here and my seat sits very close when I am flying, just behind the gimbal base.

I don't have any problem with movement of the stick on my end. I mean the part that is down there by my chair the movement is not that far really, it is mostly the upper end of the shaft that moves more.

[ciderworm]

unlikelyspider. That's a fair point. the 200mm gooseneck does provide a bit of extra clearance but I did still have to cut some of the seat foam away.

 

[unlikely_spider]

@dburne@ciderworm

Makes sense, and a goose-neck style extension would likely help me. And the large base of the NXT that I have takes up a lot of space, unlike something like the MongoosT. It's just a big outlay of cash to test in my setup with no guarantee of comfort. The jump from the ~$160 to the next stage (likely over $500?) is pretty big, though I would love the extra control that an extension would likely provide. I'd love something like the VKB Ultimate.

[Varibraun]

3 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

It's just a big outlay of cash to test in my setup with no guarantee of comfort.

 

Agreed, but in the justification categories this year I have taken solace in the fact that:

 

1.  I haven't spent anything to upgrade CPU or GPU thanks to crypto miners(?);

2. I don't have any other real hobbies to spend $$ on;

3. No eating out for 12+ months;

4. @dburne enables me!

5. Finally, I am pretty certain if I end up with something that doesn't work for me, I can recoup most of the investment in reselling it quickly online with the current desire for these peripherals.  Fortunately, I have liked everything I purchased this year so haven't had to test that theory.

 

3 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

I would love the extra control that an extension would likely provide. I'd love something like the VKB Ultimate.

 

For me, an extension and a metal grip are big immersion, as well as control features, especially in VR.

[kissTheSky]

6 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

@dburne@ciderworm

Makes sense, and a goose-neck style extension would likely help me. And the large base of the NXT that I have takes up a lot of space, unlike something like the MongoosT. It's just a big outlay of cash to test in my setup with no guarantee of comfort. The jump from the ~$160 to the next stage (likely over $500?) is pretty big, though I would love the extra control that an extension would likely provide. I'd love something like the VKB Ultimate.

That’s exactly what I hope to get in a month and a half to two months (VKB ultimate w/ 200mm S-extension). My X45’s trigger got messed up for the umpteenth time, and seeing that the most accessible (to me) X52Pro is $200 msrp (not even mentioning the insane prices Warthogs are demanding on the bay), getting a VKB seemed the logical choice. 
 

I’ll fix the trigger for the last time, failing that, I’ll try the 2 decade old Logitech wingman with broken FFB as a stop gap until I can order the VKB. Since I only fly IL2, I thought about getting the KB12 grip which brings the price down to $350ies with the extension, but I think I’d rather have the metal grip of the ultimate. 
 

I’m between Colesville & University, a bit south of montgomery Blair, so if you’re still looking for options when I finally get it, you’re welcome to stop by and try it. 

3 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

Agreed, but in the justification categories this year I have taken solace in the fact that:

 

1.  I haven't spent anything to upgrade CPU or GPU thanks to crypto miners(?);

2. I don't have any other real hobbies to spend $$ on;

3. No eating out for 12+ months;

4. @dburne enables me!

5. Finally, I am pretty certain if I end up with something that doesn't work for me, I can recoup most of the investment in reselling it quickly online with the current desire for these peripherals.  Fortunately, I have liked everything I purchased this year so haven't had to test that theory.

 

 

For me, an extension and a metal grip are big immersion, as well as control features, especially in VR.

@dburne enables all of us! ??

[Varibraun]

20 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

Do all of you have a cutout in the front of the chair like cockpit seats do?

 

20 hours ago, Varibraun said:

Same as @dburne, no cutout for me, but I get very close to the base.

 

Here are photos (that hopefully will post this time):