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Tactical Air War

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As a suggestion for next campaign, objectives with more targets but only requiring 80% or so to destroy. 

 

Reasoning - allows level bombing to come into play a bit more rather than dive bombing and is a bit more realistic.  I only ended up level bombing with the Pe-2 once in the campaign since it just makes more sense to dive bomb when you have to destroy every last building in the defenses.

It is also frustrating at times doing low passes to search for a single net that has an AT gun in it when in reality the target is kaput.  You can have 3 or 4 people tied up for a few minutes just searching for one truly irrelevant item in the big scheme of things.  

 

 

"Herr Oberst, mission accomplished, we've destroyed the entire Soviet depot !

- All of it ?

- Yes, all of it, down to the last ammunition crate ! 

- Any losses to report ?

- Just a few holes in Gunter's wing but nothing more, no enemy fighters sighted. It was a complete panic on the ground, I even saw a Russian soldier throwing away his lunchbox to run hiding in the nearby forest !

- Have you destroyed that lunchbox too ?

- I don't think so herr Oberst.

- Then the depot cannot be considered as destroyed. Get back to your planes !"

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"Herr Oberst, mission accomplished, we've destroyed the entire Soviet depot !

- All of it ?

- Yes, all of it, down to the last ammunition crate ! 

- Any losses to report ?

- Just a few holes in Gunter's wing but nothing more, no enemy fighters sighted. It was a complete panic on the ground, I even saw a Russian soldier throwing away his lunchbox to run hiding in the nearby forest !

- Have you destroyed that lunchbox too ?

- I don't think so herr Oberst.

- Then the depot cannot be considered as destroyed. Get back to your planes !"

hahahah :lol:

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The TAW admins will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe if you destroy all but one or two anti-tank guns, although the "icon" doesn't disappear from the map, it is essentially rendered ineffective.

 

Similar to a tank battalion securing an airfield--- if there aren't at least 4 tanks attacking the field, they will be unable to take it.  

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The TAW admins will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe if you destroy all but one or two anti-tank guns, although the "icon" doesn't disappear from the map, it is essentially rendered ineffective.

 

Similar to a tank battalion securing an airfield--- if there aren't at least 4 tanks attacking the field, they will be unable to take it.  

1. You need to destroy all anti-tank guns to make icon disappear.

2. Yes that is correct.

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Forgive me lack of knowledge here but would eliminating the icon when it is down to an 'ineffective' status have gameplay repercussions?

I would -guess- that it would be no big deal to have the icon removed and if players needed to destroy the remaining tanks, trucks, depots, etc. in order to achieve some further gameplay objective they would be able to do that on their own.  WoL does have some tank objectives that I have eliminated the icon on yet a couple of T-34s were still undamaged.

Also, I really enjoyed the last campaign.  I will definitely be supporting the project financially and hope others do the same.  Your work is highly appreciated.

 

 

Cheers, not Dakpilot

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A battle at 6 hours long would be better than another at 12 hours long or something..

Also i just saw on the TAW page..

"GUNNER IS FORBIDDEN"
Seriously How does that work? Why is this even a thing?.
(The games primary class and primary roles are Bomber, Attacker, Followed by Fighters (backup) Also..
A, How do you man your own gunners. (specially if you crash and defending a downed plane)
B, How do 3-4 people fly out in a bomber together?

Should it not be Fighter spam Forbidden
- 2/3rd of the team must be bombers to carry out the mission as per the game design?

Re: As for the navigation discussed above (that would make sense for single person planes like fighters, but not those with gunners/navigators.

Edited by =r4t=Sshadow14

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"GUNNER IS FORBIDDEN"

 

A, How do you man your own gunners. (specially if you crash and defending a downed plane)

 

Should it not be Fighter spam Forbidden

 

Pilot's can man their own gunners to my knowledge, I certainly did it a few times.

And the way I understand it, the gunner ban is mainly to stop greifing. since theoretically anyone could get in and just shoot your tail off from the gunner seat.

Personally I'd love to see it included, perhaps making it a Squadron only action. As in only squadron mates can get in your gunner seat while randos are kicked.

And I think the fighter spam only really applies to the russian side, if that, since almost every fighter can carry bombs and if in a well coordinated flight can easily down an objective.

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I'm pretty sure the rule against playing as a gunner is just a technical limitation of Kathon's script. It registers as a different plane so you get kicked.

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Pilot's can man their own gunners to my knowledge, I certainly did it a few times.

And the way I understand it, the gunner ban is mainly to stop greifing. since theoretically anyone could get in and just shoot your tail off from the gunner seat.

Personally I'd love to see it included, perhaps making it a Squadron only action. As in only squadron mates can get in your gunner seat while randos are kicked.

And I think the fighter spam only really applies to the russian side, if that, since almost every fighter can carry bombs and if in a well coordinated flight can easily down an objective.

May I please not be forced to join a squadron just to get in a gun?

 

Can we not punish the single players that join in a group of others who may be of one or multiple squadrons?  While taking the possibility of a gunner away isn't some huge offense, it is a fun little action that adds to the game and I don't see the point in trying to market this as a squadron gig.

 

How about when you take off if you don't trust people you just lock your gunner stations?  That seems logical rather than trying to throw arbitrary restrictions forth that also take time to script and test.  Would much rather that time is spent on gameplay mechanics that add to the experience.

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As stated roo-five-ter it seems to be a technical limitation for the script that runs the campaign on the back end.

My point was against the logic, not the viability.  Also the statement was speculation not fact, but still very plausible.

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Can I make a game campaign dynamics suggestion?

 

I really like how later planes became available, as if through the war technology improved. Can we mimic reality by making the technology/advancement dependent on the health of the army/nation. Since factories manufacture planes, the oleanders should be released based on how well the factories produce a product.

 

For each advanced plane p available, a factory would have to produce x total points--which are produced automatically over time. But the production is an H health dependent variable. So for example:

 

Yak-1 is maybe1000 production points. Each factory produces 60 points an hour (1 point/min) at 100% health. So..

 

X= H*60

 

So if you have 2 factories running at 100% health, a new plane would be available after 8 hours of operation. If they were both at 50% then it would be 16 hours. I know maps can take a few days so if you wanted the planes to take longer to manufacture just up the total hours required for a new plane to be released.

 

This would make factories very important targets and I think it would add interesting twists. If you capture airfields but don't have more advanced planes it can hinder you long term. I also have ideas about incorporating other assets into healing the factories (like trains and ships). Please comment and tell me what you think, good or bad. Thanks.

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Can I make a game campaign dynamics suggestion?

 

I really like how later planes became available, as if through the war technology improved. Can we mimic reality by making the technology/advancement dependent on the health of the army/nation. Since factories manufacture planes, the oleanders should be released based on how well the factories produce a product.

 

For each advanced plane p available, a factory would have to produce x total points--which are produced automatically over time. But the production is an H health dependent variable. So for example:

 

Yak-1 is maybe1000 production points. Each factory produces 60 points an hour (1 point/min) at 100% health. So..

 

X= H*60

 

So if you have 2 factories running at 100% health, a new plane would be available after 8 hours of operation. If they were both at 50% then it would be 16 hours. I know maps can take a few days so if you wanted the planes to take longer to manufacture just up the total hours required for a new plane to be released.

 

This would make factories very important targets and I think it would add interesting twists. If you capture airfields but don't have more advanced planes it can hinder you long term. I also have ideas about incorporating other assets into healing the factories (like trains and ships). Please comment and tell me what you think, good or bad. Thanks.

1. It is very unrealistic. The fighting in the east front has no effect on the production of both sides ( after the german initial trust that made the russian move their factories).

2. It is to complicated. As it is now, many players don't understand the rules of the server. Adding this mechanic will make it more obscure.

3. There are good targets for heavy bombers as it is now.

Edited by bald_eagle

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Hi.

After last war I have to wrote few things about counting combat mission and ditched planes status.

I've understand that if pilot is killed or captured server do not count that mission as strictly "CM".

But why server do not count that mission as "CM" when pilot is alive in ditched plane on own side ? Or bailed over friendly ?

Why "landed" status is only one factor to get "CM" in server statistic ?

 

Another thing is "ditched" status.

Why server count as ditched every mistakes during landing or take off ? Ppl doing some strange things on take off, one is landing, one take off at the same time - you have to run away from airstrip, sometimes pull the brakes too hard .. and bang - you loose your plane for 3 mission. And if you have only two of them (planes) next mistake withdrwn You from server of 1.5 hours unless You like to fly supply or Ju-87 "sitting duck" mission.

In that counting system in complete no sense bring Your damaged planes to home field, better to land safe stricte behind friendly lines, cuz for server is the same thing.

I've remember one of the first stage - I've landed without elevators near af and at the enf one gear was broken - I've got "landed" status - so I know that is possible to count it in that way. 

 

I think that few sugestion will bring more pll to server or prevent them to leave it. 

And saying "quality not quantity" is not the point. 

 

Ramm.

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Hi.
After last war I have to wrote few things about counting combat mission and ditched planes status.
I've understand that if pilot is killed or captured server do not count that mission as strictly "CM".
But why server do not count that mission as "CM" when pilot is alive in ditched plane on own side ? Or bailed over friendly ?
Why "landed" status is only one factor to get "CM" in server statistic ?
 

Your suggestion give advantage to unfair play. Why waste time on returning to airfield if you can just cross the line, ditch or bail out and takeoff again ?

Edited by bald_eagle
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Your suggestion give advantage to unfair play. Why waste time on returning to airfield if you can just cross the line, ditch or bail out and takeoff again ?

You didn't get the point.

If You did as You wrote You will lose your plane. Loosing a plane is some kind of penalty on TAW.

I do not want to change anything in that matter.

But sometimes You are damaged after the fight with enemy ac, sometimes flak get your controls. etc... why this mission isn't counted as "CM" ? You did some damage to enemy and try to get back to friendly lines.

You get captured status - ok, no "CM" counted, but if you landed with broken ac on af or ditched in a field ?

 

Ramm.

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but if you landed with broken ac on af or ditched in a field ?

 

 

If you land with damaged AC on AF it is counted as a CM.

In the last campaign you got a fighter and attacker for each window. Which is 2 aircraft every 1.5 hour for free.

Sorry, but if even this is not enough then I really don't know what you are looking for. I have a lot of fun on berloga, but here I want a different kind of experience. 

Edited by bald_eagle

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If you land with damaged AC on AF it is counted as a CM.

 

Nope.

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=22858&name=JG700_Rammjager

I've landed on af and damaged plane on taxining due gunner fire. No "CM" counted.

 

 

 

In the last campaign you got a fighter and attacker for each window. Which is 2 aircraft every 1.5 hour for free.

Nope.

You got one after mission end. You do not get another if You do not loose the one You have. So if server doesn't count "CM" cuz You ditched you do not get any more planes.

And If You loose that plane due to take off accindent on begginig of mission - if you take plane to take off again -  You will get "NOT VALID PLANE" and no "CM" again.

 

 

 

Sorry, but if even this is not enough then I really don't know what you are looking for. I have a lot of fun on berloga, but here I want a different kind of experience. 

 

I'm looking for proper counting by TAW server "CM" and change ditched plane status.

 

Ramm. 

Edited by JG700_Rammjager

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I have got CM after landing with damaged plane many times. Examples:

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=23414&name=bald_eagle

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=22788&name=bald_eagle

 

If you ditch the aircraft you have to wait for it. Maybe you are right that if you crash land on airfield the wait should be shorter. But it is a minor detail.

Those rule are meant to discourage reckless flying. In real war you rarely see soldiers throwing their life away. They exist, but they die fast and only once. Landing, properly on your wheels, should be the most common outcome of a sortie.

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I agree whit Ramm.

 

The sistem its too rigid, some times on take off you can find a friend are landing,  or maybe you are rolling just after landed and see another plane coming to you and have to evade ... many times only propeller was damaged. In the other hand... what is a combat mision ??? really depends of damage level when u land ???  why if you broke your plane not count like a CM if you really fly and do your job or stay flying  the time required.

 

If you  broke plane on land... have to counts like a CM , if u want dont count like a succeful landing, but its a combat mision anyway no?

 

for me de ideal solution will be consider 2 factors :

 

- Level of damage

- Radius landing.

 

For all damaged levels but inside radius landing... count mision like a CM.

 

For low level damaged inside radius ( on take off allways are iniside radius ) no lose plane.

 

 

 

 

Its my suggestion   :)

 

thx

Edited by RedEye_Tumu

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Its all about how game counts plane damage. If you damage plane in 80% then youll have CM but if damege will be 100% than theres no CM. We have been discussing this long time ago with Khaton on ts and its really hard to script.

Same thing is with death. Sometimes when you bailed out with result of death 'cos something, explosion etc in stats you was alive. Strange isnt it ? We cant do much about it. Sometimes game "knows better" who died same as lost plane.

Right now we are developing brand new TAW so again I will speak with Khaton about this.

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One more thing. Combat Mission is full mission from takeoff to landing with minimum 15 min or 5 min with shoot enemy plane or ground target. So succesful mission end with landing (not ditched).

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Some suggestions.

 

  1. Let pilot choose the type of aircraft they will receive ( a drop down list in the pilot profile and not just choosing between fighter and bomber). It can be frustrating for some to receive type that they are unable to use properly.

  2. Increase the higher limit for aircraft ( to even 5 for some ) to give a carrot to safe piloting. And decrease the whining ( i wish…).

  3. Make the border units ( the AAA that is not shown on the map near the borders ) have effect on ground battle outcome. So lone wolf attacker can scout the borders and attack those units and have a (small) effect on the map outcome.

  4. Add AI cargo and reconnaissance flight. So lone wolf fighter can have something to do. Those targets can have also (small) effect on ground fight outcome. Those targets should not count in the pilot stats.

  5. Give the initiative to one side on some of the maps. To the blue on the summer maps and to the reds in the winter maps. Spring and autumn should be equal. The idea is that one side is attacking and the other defending. The defending side has to hold for some time ( 10 days)  and this will be his winning condition. The attacker side will get advantage in the ground battle calculation. But he must wipe the map to win.

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 In real war you rarely see soldiers throwing their life away. They exist, but they die fast and only once. Landing, properly on your wheels, should be the most common outcome of a sortie.

Funny - real war.

Rudel who had 2530 combat mision, was shoot down over 30 times. So for him that 30 mission was comabt or not ? ;)

 

"Comabt mission" in TAW server has nothing to do with loosing planes.

What I've talking about is new counting system of "CM".

 

Combat Mission is full mission from takeoff to landing with minimum 15 min or 5 min with shoot enemy plane or ground target. So succesful mission end with landing (not ditched).

For me should be:

"Combat mission" is is full mission from takeoff to landing with minimum 15 min without shooting anything or 5 min with shoot enemy plane or ground target with landing, ditched or bailed over firendly.

No "Combat Mission" when mission ends with dead or captured pilot.

 

Its all about how game counts plane damage. If you damage plane in 80% then youll have CM but if damege will be 100% than theres no CM. We have been discussing this long time ago with Khaton on ts and its really hard to script.

 

It's all about not about % of damage, but about "ditched" status on home field.

I do not see problem with ditched status when pilot landed some in field near river or forest. Plane will recover after 3 mission.

Problem apear when You are on airfield already - during take off or landing.

 

 

For all damaged levels but inside radius landing... count mision like a CM.

For low level damaged inside radius ( on take off allways are iniside radius ) no lose plane

 

What Tumu said is a proper solution - radius. Inside radius whatever You did with plane is counted as landed (exept death pilot during take off or landing).

People willl stop loosing planes on take off and landing, and they will be able to fly again. That will bring more ppl on server IMO.

 

Ramm.

Edited by JG700_Rammjager

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Rudel landed 2500 times. Here some quate from his book:

I consider what to do; there is no chance of coming in cunningly behind cover as the flat river valley offers no opportunities for such tactics. There are no tall trees or buildings. Sober reflection tells me that experience and tactical skill go by the board if one breaks all the fundamental rules derived from them. The answer: a stubborn attack and trust to luck. If I had always been so foolhardy I should have been in my grave a dozen times.

...

I tell the other pilots to stay up; there are several new crews among them and while they cannot be expected to do much damage with this defence we are likely to suffer heavier losses than are worth the candle.

...

I report my observations and stress the fact that I have only attacked because we are fighting fifty miles from Berlin, otherwise it would be inexcusable. If we were holding a line further east I should have waited for a more favourable situation.

 

This is the mission he lost his leg on. If he was as reckless as you think he would have not survive as long as he did.

 

If you will not count ditching during takeoff, You will soon see pilot take off straight over the surrounding fields. It is easy not to lose your plane on take off if you just look around.

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Some suggestions.

 

  1. Let pilot choose the type of aircraft they will receive ( a drop down list in the pilot profile and not just choosing between fighter and bomber). It can be frustrating for some to receive type that they are unable to use properly.

  2. Increase the higher limit for aircraft ( to even 5 for some ) to give a carrot to safe piloting. And decrease the whining ( i wish…).

  3. Make the border units ( the AAA that is not shown on the map near the borders ) have effect on ground battle outcome. So lone wolf attacker can scout the borders and attack those units and have a (small) effect on the map outcome.

  4. Add AI cargo and reconnaissance flight. So lone wolf fighter can have something to do. Those targets can have also (small) effect on ground fight outcome. Those targets should not count in the pilot stats.

  5. Give the initiative to one side on some of the maps. To the blue on the summer maps and to the reds in the winter maps. Spring and autumn should be equal. The idea is that one side is attacking and the other defending. The defending side has to hold for some time ( 10 days)  and this will be his winning condition. The attacker side will get advantage in the ground battle calculation. But he must wipe the map to win.

 

1. We'll discuss it

2. Possible but not for free. You'll have to make CM to get more planes.

3. They have been in last two campaigns.

4. We don't like AI. Its better to make possibility for players to do this missions.

5. emmm nope. Maybe later but not now, we have other plans.

 

 

It's all about not about % of damage, but about "ditched" status on home field.

I do not see problem with ditched status when pilot landed some in field near river or forest. Plane will recover after 3 mission.

Problem apear when You are on airfield already - during take off or landing.

If you will destroy(100%) your plane anywhere it must be repaired and it takes 3 missions. It will not heal in miracle 'cos it was damaged while takeoff or landing. Ditched plane is ditched plane.

 

Now Combat Missions.

As I said earlier CM is full flight... bla bla bla. ended with landing.

In our understanding in missions you have objectives with are in your own choice as CAP missions, ground attack, transports, etc. So lets say you're taking off, going to your combat patrol area, shooting down 2 enemy planes and bingo ! OBJ complete now you have to RTB but while landing you destroyed your propeller and engine is dead. Now they have to repair it what takes 3 missions. Your commander is angry as hell. This is not successful mission, not at all.

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 This is not successful mission, not at all.

Succesfull mission is that one, when You can walk out from airplane using own legs, and fly another one in next day.

I've read too many memories of II ww pilots to belive that planes are more valuable than pilot.

 

Thanks for clearing this.

I've underdstand Your point of view.

 

Ramm.

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Would it be possible to add targets like depots, trains, artillery posts etc. directly in Stalingrad "downtown" area ? That would increase the immersion/authenticy especially for the bombing runs of blue side on the summer/autumn maps...

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Succesfull mission is that one, when You can walk out from airplane using own legs, and fly another one in next day.

I've read too many memories of II ww pilots to belive that planes are more valuable than pilot.

 

Thanks for clearing this.

I've underdstand Your point of view.

 

Ramm.

Maybe one day we will implement your idea but for now we have more important work to do if we want to lunch new campaign at the end of january.

 

Would it be possible to add targets like depots, trains, artillery posts etc. directly in Stalingrad "downtown" area ? That would increase the immersion/authenticy especially for the bombing runs of blue side on the summer/autumn maps...

There are depots, artillery (defence positions), tanks columns, transport (trucks) columns.

In plans for new campaign : trains, ships, better def. positions, better depots, JU52 targets and more :)

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JU52 targets

 

Are you guys going to take the approach of other servers and have Ju-52s on both sides?

 

I really hope not... VVS can just fly Pe-2s if you want to give them transports too. Just require more of them to achieve the same result since they're faster and could carry was less cargo.

 

Cheers and good luck with your work on the next campaign!

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Are you guys going to take the approach of other servers and have Ju-52s on both sides?

 

I really hope not... VVS can just fly Pe-2s if you want to give them transports too. Just require more of them to achieve the same result since they're faster and could carry was less cargo.

 

Cheers and good luck with your work on the next campaign!

JU52 will be avialeble only for germans.

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Server is still not showing.

 

Is it the end of January yet ?  :)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Is there any way to make the in field harder / rougher to prevent cowboys from taking off across the af instead of runway.

Not on your server, But i got hit on take off by a cowboy fighter and he blammed me (saying he was in the fighter so he had right of way,)

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Is there any way to make the in field harder / rougher to prevent cowboys from taking off across the af instead of runway.

 

Not on your server, But i got hit on take off by a cowboy fighter and he blammed me (saying he was in the fighter so he had right of way,)

 

Roadrage on TAW is nonexistent / extremely rare. People tend to be quite careful with the take-off procedures as not to wreck the planes they want to fly. Generally the only danger on airfields are the people who don't read the chat nor watch for nav. lights for incoming traffic ;) .

Edited by =LVA=GW_de_Moor

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