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Tactical Air War

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53 minutes ago, =/Hospiz/=MetalHead said:

You brought my plane down, but you failed to protect the target. 


It’s very difficult to kill a bomber before he hits the rear depot; i’ve done it, but it’s very rare. Also In my bomber sorties flying Pe2 from my 20+ depot runs i was intercepted before drop only twice, that’s less than 10%...so hitting a rear depot is not really difficult. The only thing that can help you anticipate the bomber is the bugged  distant visibility from last patch or pure luck. So yes, at least shooting that bomber down and land safely still is a successful mission; he learns he will get shot down if he goes unescorted, and also is a -1 plane for the oposite side.

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50 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:


It’s very difficult to kill a bomber before he hits the rear depot; i’ve done it, but it’s very rare. Also In my bomber sorties flying Pe2 from my 20+ depot runs i was intercepted before drop only twice, that’s less than 10%...so hitting a rear depot is not really difficult. The only thing that can help you anticipate the bomber is the bugged  distant visibility from last patch or pure luck. So yes, at least shooting that bomber down and land safely still is a successful mission; he learns he will get shot down if he goes unescorted, and also is a -1 plane for the oposite side.



Yeah, yeah. I get that - no matter what you did, you think you did everything that could be done, and there's no way one could do better, for you are the best single pilot here, and you lose only because those stupid LW players outnumber you. That's good. As long as you think that way it's easier to play against you.
Please, switch to blue team next TAW. I will probably keep alternating between sides and end up flying red next edition, so it will be good having some dumb opponents.

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On 12/23/2019 at 8:44 PM, =/Hospiz/=MetalHead said:

Hypocrite and coward - you have lost any respect I had for you, as I have respect for other human beings, but you are no longer a human being for me, and I will not treat you as one, for you are a creature that insults human race by pretending to be called human  You are an abomination called Chimango.


Now you call me “dumb”...so not bad from your previous name calling, at least i’m human again 😁

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imagine this forum having moderators acting like moderators even if i'm not here summoning them everytime...

Edited by Prancingkiller2

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19 hours ago, =/Hospiz/=MetalHead said:


I know Russians have long tradition of shooting their own soldiers if they refuse to blindly charge at the enemy, but it's not a general rule everywhere in the world.


In most of the other armies there's a bit more initiative left in the hands of NCOs and officers commanding on the field. If an officer realizes that his unit can't seize their objective, because enemy is much stronger, he does not order a suicidal attack, but holds position, sends a report about situation to his superiors and waits for new orders. Situations where an unit is ordered to defend a position to the last man, or perform an assault at all costs are very rare. Trained men are valuable resource in war, and while they are expended to achieve strategic goals, they cannot be expended carelessly simply because you cannot win a war when you are out of men.

 

That's old hat information steeped in both western & eastern propaganda which you are just repeating.

 

This book:

Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed

by Michael K. Jones

ISBN : 9781848842014

 

541232535_StalingradHowtheRedArmyTriumphed.jpg.4541edb4535c939e8dff2ab96c8d8bbe.jpg

 

Shows us that it was a much closer thing than previously alluded to, and that blocking detachments were not a factor in it.

 

Spoiler

OVERVIEW

 

Michael K. Jones's new history of Stalingrad offers a radical reinterpretation of the most famous battle of the WW2. Combining eyewitness testimony of Red Army fighters with fresh archive material, the book gives a dramatic insight into the thinking of the Russian command and the mood of the ordinary soldiers. He focuses on the story of the Russian 62nd Army, which began the campaign in utter demoralization, yet turned the tables on the powerful German 6th Army. He explains the Red Army's extraordinary performance using battle psychology, emphasizing the vital role of leadership, morale and motivation in a triumph that turned the course of the war.

Colonel-General Anatoly Mereshko fought throughout the battle as staff officer to the commander, Chuikov. Working with the author much of Mereshko's testimony is entirely new - and will astonish a western audience. It is backed up by accounts of other key veterans and the recently released war diary and combat journals. These show that the oft-repeated descriptions of Stalingrad's two critical days of fighting - 14 September 1942, when the Germans broke into the city, and 14 October, when they launched a massive attack on the factory district - disguise how desperate the plight of the defenders really was. In their place is a far more terrifying reality. Grasping this, we come to see Stalingrad as more than a victory of successful tactics - rather, as an astounding, improbable triumph of the human spirit.

 

Anyhow without this well researched and written book, it's doesn't take much grey matter to understand that it takes more than someone standing behind you pointing a gun at you for you to defeat the most experienced, best equipped army in the world at that time. Yet the Russians did just that, and beat the Luftwaffe with beautiful little wooden planes too, made by old men, women and children in factories that had been disassembled put on trains and reassembled in the rear:P

Edited by Pict

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1 hour ago, Pict said:

 

That's old hat information steeped in both western & eastern propaganda which you are just repeating.

 

This book:

Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed

by Michael K. Jones

ISBN : 9781848842014

 

541232535_StalingradHowtheRedArmyTriumphed.jpg.4541edb4535c939e8dff2ab96c8d8bbe.jpg

 

Shows us that it was a much closer thing than previously alluded to, and that blocking detachments were not a factor in it.

 

  Hide contents

OVERVIEW

 

Michael K. Jones's new history of Stalingrad offers a radical reinterpretation of the most famous battle of the WW2. Combining eyewitness testimony of Red Army fighters with fresh archive material, the book gives a dramatic insight into the thinking of the Russian command and the mood of the ordinary soldiers. He focuses on the story of the Russian 62nd Army, which began the campaign in utter demoralization, yet turned the tables on the powerful German 6th Army. He explains the Red Army's extraordinary performance using battle psychology, emphasizing the vital role of leadership, morale and motivation in a triumph that turned the course of the war.

Colonel-General Anatoly Mereshko fought throughout the battle as staff officer to the commander, Chuikov. Working with the author much of Mereshko's testimony is entirely new - and will astonish a western audience. It is backed up by accounts of other key veterans and the recently released war diary and combat journals. These show that the oft-repeated descriptions of Stalingrad's two critical days of fighting - 14 September 1942, when the Germans broke into the city, and 14 October, when they launched a massive attack on the factory district - disguise how desperate the plight of the defenders really was. In their place is a far more terrifying reality. Grasping this, we come to see Stalingrad as more than a victory of successful tactics - rather, as an astounding, improbable triumph of the human spirit.

 

Anyhow without this well researched and written book, it's doesn't take much grey matter to understand that it takes more than someone standing behind you pointing a gun at you for you to defeat the most experienced, best equipped army in the world at that time. Yet the Russians did just that, and beat the Luftwaffe with beautiful little wooden planes too, made by old men, women and children in factories that had been disassembled put on trains and reassembled in the rear:P



It was 7GShap/Silas who first stated that in the military you obey or get shot, not me.

And since when VVS defeated Luftwaffe? USAAF and RAF did that. Majority of the air battles happened on the West, with most of the LW being used against the western allies. At the same time on the Eastern Front LW was somehow able to operate till the end using only a minority of their numbers and despite being vastly outnumbered, still managed to get local air superiority whenever it was able to concentrate remaining forces. 

Russians won because they had numbers, and they used them swarming Germans while sustaining huge casualties. Funny thing is they now celebrate WW2 as a huge victory. It was a victory no doubt, but a few more victories like that, and there would be nobody in Russia to celebrate.

And don't expect a reply from me after this post. That discussion has gone way too far in this topic, and it's good time to put it to an end. If you want to continue it, PM is the way to go.

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On 2/6/2020 at 4:49 AM, -=PHX=-Tomcat_ said:

I think that this reward system is going to bring a lot of problems. First of all, cheating. Admins are going to have to take a close look at "aces" stats, looking for someone who "happens" to shoot down the same pilot again, and again... or mostly shoots down pilots that have just been created and are never seen again... You may say that it is not a very high reward, so it is not likely that someone will bother to cheat for it and take the risk of being caught and banned, but I have seen (not here) people cheating for free, so...

 

Second, it rewards a behaviour that is not the correct one imho. It has been said before, Tactical Air War does not mean not to take risks at all, to fly at 8.000 looking for an easy prey, regardless of team targets, and not to cooperate with other pilots in combined operations with only one goal, win the war.

 

It is true that if you do as I say, you have little chances not to be killed. But that is what war means. You can be an excelent pilot, a master of the skies, and one dang gunner smoking weed in an AAA outpost happens to score a hit right through your head while you cover an attack on enemy columns and that's it. You can be an ace but the course ouf war requires that you must attack a big bomber formation heavily escorted and press home your attack against all odds, and in doing so putting yourself in a very bad tactical situation, and surely you will become a killmark in the plane of an enemy pilot, a pilot that maybe you would have beat 10 times over 10 in a fair fight.

 

And in real life, if one pilot refused to take risks, and spend time wasting fuel going after personal numbers, he would be grounded and most likely be court martialed and shot. And with this sistem that behaviour is promoted and rewarded.

 

Last, If you put this reward system and combine it with the score system, it encourages a lot being a fighter pilot. Bomber and attack pilots have little chances to win any prize. Strange in a server that is supposed to encourage a tactical air war and not an ace duel.

 

My two cents. Cheers

 

 

The articulates exactly why I will not donate anymore to TAW if this course of action LG and StG admin choose. Taking the "fun" out of it all (...I thought that was what the 3 lives per map were all about). I want my money to go toward server upkeep and beers once in awhile to the the admin for their time and effort to making TAW work.

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Sadly, throwing people together into a makeshift squad is often times more deadly to said squad than flying lone wolf.   It doesn't matter how much knowledge each pilot has. Without training as a unit, it's just lone wolves all flying in proximity to each other in the same-ish direction toward the enemy.  

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19 hours ago, =LG=Mad_Mikhael said:

What Rafcio said. That "fighter" mission was JABO and his death was partly my fault.

This shows the problem with most of the people here.  You are assuming too much with very little information available. Most of his sorties targets were airfields and frontline objectives. With fighter cover. And I know that because I was covering him a lot. Not only me of course. Other LG members were also doing this.

MetalHead is certainly an outstanding bomber. Flights in the majority and with escort, when the enemy's resistance is minimal allowed to reveal his best qualities as a pilot))

It would be interesting to look at the statistics if he regularly had to fly in conditions when there are 3-5 times more opponents.

I hope that he will also be successful in the next campaign playing for the Reds

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8 hours ago, =/Hospiz/=MetalHead said:



And since when VVS defeated Luftwaffe? USAAF and RAF did that. Majority of the air battles happened on the West, with most of the LW being used against the western allies. At the same time on the Eastern Front LW was somehow able to operate till the end using only a minority of their numbers and despite being vastly outnumbered, still managed to get local air superiority whenever it was able to concentrate forces.

Yeah, there are still people who really think the VVS cleared the skies. Air war was won by the Western Allies.

Edited by LLv24_Zami
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54 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Air war was won by the Western Allies.

Only after the spring of 1944

But in that short time, the allies achieved impressive results.

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4 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

Only after the spring of 1944

Late 1943, check the stats 😉. And even before that LW had to divide resources.

Edited by LLv24_Zami

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8 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Late 1943, check the stats 😉. And even before that LW had to divide resources.

Can you give me a link to these statistics? I am very interested in this question.

Late 1943 or early 1944 the difference is not too big

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11 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

Can you give me a link to these statistics? I am very interested in this question.

Can you give me a link stating otherwise? I'm really interested too 😀

11 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

Can you give me a link to these statistics? I am very interested in this question.

Late 1943 or early 1944 the difference is not too big

After the Kuban battles LW was stripped from fighter units in the Eastern front, in fact not so late 1943.

Edited by LLv24_Zami

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5 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Can you give me a link stating otherwise? I'm really interested too 😀

Of course, right after you )

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1 minute ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

Of course, right after you )

Just read the history of the air battles in various sources and draw your conclusions. As it should be done.

Edited by LLv24_Zami

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31 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Just read the history of the air battles in various sources and draw your conclusions. As it should be done.

OK, thanks for your statistics)

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18 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

OK, thanks for your statistics)

Likewise, I know I can count on you always my friend 😉

 

But, if you deny this commonly known fact, please educate us:

After the Kuban battles LW was stripped from fighter units in the Eastern front, in fact not so late 1943.

Edited by LLv24_Zami

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3 hours ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Yeah, there are still people who really think the VVS cleared the skies. Air war was won by the Western Allies.

 

Please refresh my memory, how many "western allied" units flew against the Luftwaffe over the eastern front? Is it not the same number of VVS units that flew against the Luftwaffe over the eastern front? - Zero.

 

I was clearly talking about the eastern front.

 

It appears that you have your wires crossed, or you tried to cross mine. Either way it sounds like you are suggesting that the Luftwaffe left the eastern front without a scratch from the VVS in order to be sacrificed against the mighty USAAF & RAF on the western front.

 

Would this be why the largest majority of the Wehrmacht was annihilated on the eastern front, lets dig into your "common knowledge" bag of tricks and say as much as 85%...because they're air cover had run away without a fight in order to get minced by the superior enemy on the western front?

 

You may well be right...I doubt it though. What about Dieppe? The western allies got thrashed by the Luftwaffe at Dieppe, although there will be those who argue to the contrary, in the same way some argue that Dunkirk was some kind of British victory ;)

 

Is it not more likely that the Luftwaffe was overstretched and bled white after years of fighting on many fronts at the same time? From the Arctic to the deserts of North Africa, from the Atlantic Ocean to the Black Sea?

 

The Luftwaffe and the Regia Aeronautica were defeated over Malta in one of the most intense air battles of all time. Do we dismiss the efforts of the RAF based on Malta and attribute their success in clearing the Malta skies to the western allies efforts over the channel front, or dare we say even the VVS over the eastern front?

 

Certainly not. So why dismiss the VVS contribution to victory on the eastern front?

Edited by Pict
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8 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

Please refresh my memory, how many "western allied" units flew against the Luftwaffe over the eastern front? Is it not the same number of VVS units that flew against the Luftwaffe over the eastern front? - Zero.

 

I was clearly talking about the eastern front.

 

It appears that you have your wires crossed, or you tried to cross mine. Either way it sounds like you are suggesting that the Luftwaffe left the eastern front without a scratch from the VVS in order to be sacrificed against the mighty USAAF & RAF on the western front.

 

Would this be why the largest majority of the Wehrmacht was annihilated on the eastern front, lets dig into your "common knowledge" bag of tricks and say as much as 85%...because they're air cover had run away without a fight in order to get minced by the superior enemy on the western front?

 

You may well be right...I doubt it though. What about Dieppe? The western allies got thrashed by the Luftwaffe at Dieppe, although there will be those who argue to the contrary, in the same way some argue that Dunkirk was some kind of British victory ;)

 

Is it not more likely that the Luftwaffe was overstretched and bled white after years of fighting on many fronts at the same time? From the Arctic to the deserts of North Africa, from the Atlantic Ocean to the Black Sea?

 

The Luftwaffe and the Regia Aeronautica were defeated over Malta in one of the most intense air battles of all time. Do we dismiss the efforts of the RAF based on Malta and attribute their success in clearing the Malta skies to the western allies efforts over the channel front, or dare we say even the VVS over the eastern front?

 

Certainly not. So why dismiss the VVS contribution to victory on the eastern front?

You seem to pretty much miss the point.

 

Let me put this simple. Majority of the German fighter units were on the Western front after Kuban. So, they flew against Allies. It`s just a fact, nothing more or less.  Kapish?

 

I did not say anything about Wehrmacht or Heer if thats what you mean.

Edited by LLv24_Zami
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Important message

 

.-- .... . -. / - .- .-- / ... - .- .-. - / ..--..

 

Edited by ITAF_Rani
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1 hour ago, LLv24_Zami said:

You seem to pretty much miss the point.

 

Let me put this simple. Majority of the German fighter units were on the Western front after Kuban. So, they flew against Allies. It`s just a fact, nothing more or less.  Kapish?

 

I did not say anything about Wehrmacht or Heer if thats what you mean.

 

I didn't miss anything.

 

Your current point about the majority of Luftwaffe fighter units being assigned to the western front after Kuban is not the initial point you made, nor the one I quoted..."kapish" yourself if that appeals to you, just try not to do it in public :P

 

It was clearly me that mentioned the Wehrmacht or German army if you prefer, simply to illustrate my point about the Luftwaffe's eventual, apparent lack of air superiority over the eastern front. But had you read and understood what I wrote you would already know this.

 

So my question still stands unanswered.

 

1 hour ago, Pict said:

The Luftwaffe and the Regia Aeronautica were defeated over Malta in one of the most intense air battles of all time. Do we dismiss the efforts of the RAF based on Malta and attribute their success in clearing the Malta skies to the western allies efforts over the channel front, or dare we say even the VVS over the eastern front?

 

Certainly not. So why dismiss the VVS contribution to victory on the eastern front?

 

Will you apply your model universally and deny the RAF guys at Malta their significant victory or what? You are still in the corner you have painted yourself into, good luck finding a way out without getting paint on your feet :biggrin:

 

Edit. Is that it, wait for the paint to dry eh? Not a bad idea ;)

Edited by Pict
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7 hours ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

MetalHead is certainly an outstanding bomber. Flights in the majority and with escort, when the enemy's resistance is minimal allowed to reveal his best qualities as a pilot))

It would be interesting to look at the statistics if he regularly had to fly in conditions when there are 3-5 times more opponents.

I hope that he will also be successful in the next campaign playing for the Reds


I have flown for the red team already, and it wasn't so bad I think. For example in TAW17.
https://forgotten-taw.tuttovola.org/2019-2/index.html

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15 hours ago, =/Hospiz/=MetalHead said:



It was 7GShap/Silas who first stated that in the military you obey or get shot, not me.

 

 

Show me one WW2 era military where this did not hold true under operational field conditions. 

 

Sarge: Squad, storm that MG position!

Private Pete: But im le tired...

Sarge: well, take a nap, then STORM THAT POSITION! 

 

:rofl:

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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2 hours ago, Pict said:

 

I didn't miss anything.

 

Your current point about the majority of Luftwaffe fighter units being assigned to the western front after Kuban is not the initial point you made, nor the one I quoted..."kapish" yourself if that appeals to you, just try not to do it in public :P

 

It was clearly me that mentioned the Wehrmacht or German army if you prefer, simply to illustrate my point about the Luftwaffe's eventual, apparent lack of air superiority over the eastern front. But had you read and understood what I wrote you would already know this.

 

So my question still stands unanswered.

 

 

Will you apply your model universally and deny the RAF guys at Malta their significant victory or what? You are still in the corner you have painted yourself into, good luck finding a way out without getting paint on your feet :biggrin:

 

Edit. Is that it, wait for the paint to dry eh? Not a bad idea ;)

What the hell are you talking about? 😀 You really lost me in this very simple topic 😀

 

I haven`t said anything about Malta, I was talking about eastern front.

 

For the last time, fact is that the wast majority of the LW fighter units were transferred to the West after Kuban. That means that they were not facing VVS but the Allies. ALLIES, not VVS. If you don`t get it, I really can`t help you. Simple. I don`t have any model or what ever you are talking about, just facts.

 

Edit: This is TAW topic and lets not degrade it any further. PM me if you wan`t to continue

Edited by LLv24_Zami
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Oh man, judging by the peoples opinions of how bad the VVS and Red army was, its a miracle that USSR survived at all. 

 

After all, war was was between an agrarian, second world nation, and ultra modern (by that time standards) western industrial juggernaut. 

 

dd3kbjt8osh01.thumb.jpg.66185cee4cf78cb9e3037f41a19e9eb8.jpg

 

 

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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2 hours ago, =/Hospiz/=MetalHead said:


I have flown for the red team already, and it wasn't so bad I think. For example in TAW17.
https://forgotten-taw.tuttovola.org/2019-2/index.html

We hope that you will repeat your success in TAW 21 (after all the latest patches).

And the fact that you usually stay away from the air battles that unfold on TAW in Prime time on European time should definitely help you in this and show results no worse than before.

In any case, the red team is very happy to have such an experienced pilot and we are counting on your help very much

 

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Well only another 400 or so hours to go.

Cpt_Siddy loved the comics, thanks for the insight.

 

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Temporaly locked after TAW administration request so people can cool down and we can take a look at past 2 days posts.

 

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