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Tactical Air War

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After much thought - I will weigh in.

 

I am not a fan real-worlds rewards for video games. There is no true achievement outside the 0s and 1s as far as I am concerned.

 

Call me old school.

 

That said - if this is the route the admin is taking, that's fine. I will however pull my donations going forward to TAW.

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I side with those that would prefer the TAW physical commemorative awards to be of custom design(s).  

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Due to some information and misunderstandings that have reached us and appeared on the forum, we would like to once again explain the basis for granting real awards in the form of medals that have recently appeared with the help of our donors.

 

First.
The initiative came from colleagues who came to us, expressing a wish to honor, with real physical prizes, the pilots who have not lost a single virtual life.
As the donors of these awards, they chose their form and method of delivering them to the winners.
As stated earlier, they wanted to remain anonymous.

 

Secondly.
Our role, as server administrators was limited to identifying people who deserved it the most. According to our rules, the choice fell on the winners of the Enkas Cup and Kuznechik Statuette. Everyone agreed to this solution.

 

Thirdly.
The rules for awarding the Enkas Cup and Kuznechik Statuette are widely known in the community, but I will remind you again of these conditions:

1. The pilot must be in Top 5 on the home page (Top 5 Fighter or Top 5 Bomber, or Top 5 Tank Killer)
2. The pilot must have "0" Death in his statistics,
3. The pilot must have "0" Captured in his statistics,
4. The pilot must have "0" Disco in his statistics.
 

These rules determine the awarding of the highest prize at TAW.
 

In the XX edition of the TAW, no one on the red side met the conditions required above, so no pilot received the Kuznechik Statuette, and thus did not receive any medal from our donors.
However, I assure you that if such a situation took place, our sponsors would be ready to give medals to the red side as well.
On the blue side, three pilots won the Enkas cup and received awards from our sponsors.

By awarding these new types of awards, no one intended to offend anyone, glorify anything, or provoke anyone.
TAW is a very difficult server and we've decided that the awarding of such awards will increase its prestige and increase the value of virtual life.
I would like to end this discussion with this statement.

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IT looks like You trying to input something or start an inquisition/witch Hunt on someone?  If so IT is very disturbing. This is TAW topic and if You want start Your discussion about something start Your own topic.

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Hi all,

 

I think its very clear already, medals are given to both sides. In this case no VVS pilot got awarded by the rules, not that hard to understand.

 

If VVS medals were given (note that the Germans ones given out are not Nazi symbols ffs, The German Cross is still in use at the German military forces and was in use long before WWII period) I am sure you wont complain and the other side will say communism did this or that, so If the medal do not show any forbidden political symbology there is nothing to complain about.

 

Do I have to remember you guys that political discussions are not possible in this forums?? Stop this nonsense.

 

Haash

 

P.S. That I posted this do not mean I will engage in any public convertation about it, if you have something to say..say it by PM.

 

 

 

 

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Rules will be enforced from now on...

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Haash

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I want stay asaid from any political or similir thing.

 

I talk only about our game and TAW.

 

My point is ,what are prized here?  Hartmans wannabe?

 

Friends, Henkas or Kuzneshik are totally lucky prize ... i perfectly know about what im talking... Piccu, u remember my history about my only death on TAW before this last? 

yes..... killed  by P40 friendly, just after  i landed  on friendly base because he have a mistake?  Thats the reality... for win this prize u need first fly like a hartmans , pray for you dont lost connect and , like  me, please dont find any noob pilot have a inspiration day.

 

For me , best way to conmemorate 20 editions of TAW cant be, send some medals for henkas winners of last edition.

Best way is recognize participation of squads along all editions. A nice way , can be a some kind of recognition ( similar to diplom ) for squads who archives X items.  For example.  

 

My point is think on collective, promote collective game, and try recognize all. 
No need promote particular ego and concrete ways of play for archive some kind of results .... but they totally uncare of team results. 

 

And for end... and please dont take it like nothing about political. Is more about gameplay.

 

Yes! yes! yes! reds neeed more love!  me want more care   and maybe if from TAW admins do something for recognize us... on future editions we have more friends playing red... and no, like i fear... more hartmans.

 

Anyway, i repeat, congrats for winners and thx to sponsors, TAW become more great every edition


Salute all.

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I think people are taking this way too seriously. It`s a game, their server and their rules. 

 

You can say your opinion whether there should be prizes or not. And many have said it, me included. But that`s it, I accept their decision. 

Edited by LLv24_Zami
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1 hour ago, 666GIAP_Tumu said:

Best way is recognize participation of squads along all editions. A nice way , can be a some kind of recognition ( similar to diplom ) for squads who archives X items.  For exam

I like this

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I suggest a medal for the unlukiest pilot...

 

IT S MINEEEEEEEEEE

Edited by ITAF_Rani

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if they gave medals for supply ... many would fly in this way,
forget about the medals and keep the important thing,
work in a team and learn from mistakes, if you want medals then fly for medals that each one does as he wishes .

 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Ala13_UnopaUno_VR
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I think it wasn’t the best decission to give special prizes right now when for the first time no VVS pilots have anything to take there. It doesn’t add anything positive to the already “biased to LW“ vibe some VVS squads have about TAW. As admins you can not ignore this, so very bad timing.

 

Also i agree with others who think it’s of bad taste the medals chosen. Actually, real world medals and more specifically money should never be awarded in this kind of campaigns. It will make it worse.

 

Also TAW shouldn’t promote Hartmannism, people who fly up high in superior fighters taking the less possible risk ignoring the objectives and campaign outcome. I mean they fly the way they want and all OK, but they shouldn’t be awarded for that by project admins.

 

ps. to the claims about envy, i have ended many times in the top 5 and also won the kuznewhatever cup, and still think it should all stay in the virtual world. 

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😂 No need to worry Chimango. Most of my kills have been made on the deck. But wait, sometimes I had to climb up to your squadmates in MiGs - oops, so many  MiGs !! :popcorm: My defence are my squadmates' cannons, not altitude or my particular skill. Don't see stuff from 5k. Know what, I got shot up several times for flying low, mi piloto perdió 4 de 5 extremidades y vuela con lo que queda (ha), tenía un amuleto de la suerte, ¡¡¡y ahora dos!!! 

 

See you next TAW Chimango :russian_ru:

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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14 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

 

See you next TAW Chimango :russian_ru:


You will, unless no changes are applied, then you won’t see me; and i hope VVS only squads stop playing TAW till it recovers the fair conditions it used to have two years ago before the package of advantages given to LW so they could finally win an edition.

 

BTW i wasn’t referring to you in my post; you flew well, sorrounded by many of your squad mates as it should be. S!

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Oh all right then, thanks. We'll be voting internally on flying VVS anyway, if it'll be Eastern Front TAW. Which I'm looking forward to. S!

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1 hour ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:


You will, unless no changes are applied, then you won’t see me; and i hope VVS only squads stop playing TAW till it recovers the fair conditions it used to have two years ago before the package of advantages given to LW so they could finally win an edition.

 

BTW i wasn’t referring to you in my post; you flew well, sorrounded by many of your squad mates as it should be. S!

TAW XX was the first one i flew so can you explain to me what was different back in the earlier campaigns?

Edited by JuliMonkey

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Historical rewards in the virtual world must contain virtual status. These rewards are used in the game itself. If you switch to real ones, you need an award design for this project. Hold a contest for the best version of the award. As a result, it will be recognized by the majority and will have a status. I don’t understand how to reward for 0 deaths ?! ... SCG_Fenris_Wolf = 56 sorties ?! = TY = Anaconda-Samkis-WT = 61 departure ???))) Where is the logic? Want to get the reward you need to fly less so as not to die? The reward must receive the fittest ...

 

Best: II./JG51Castell 223 personal victories, 107 group victories 149 hours of raids = 232 sorties, 15 deaths. 666GIAP_Chimango 143 personal victories, 105 group victories, 192 hours of raids = 417 sorties. 18 deaths ... Cpt_Siddy 131 personal victory, 80 group, 137 hours of flight time = 384 departure, 10 deaths

 

Edited by 19FAB_Battler
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5 hours ago, 19FAB_Battler said:

Where is the logic? Want to get the reward you need to fly less so as not to die?

 

Agreed, the logic for this award is deeply flawed.

 

Even if a pilot flew as many hours as the top combat pilots, he could exclusively fly cover over his airbase and if shot down by a bomber gunner, parachute back home with no fear of loosing a life. This is a world apart for the pilot who regularly flies low level attack missions where the chance of getting shot down and killed is extremely high.

 

Awards for not loosing a life appear meaningless in this context, which in the end is the context that TAW is set in.

 

Edited by Pict
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TAW , a server in which you are supposed to value your life throughout the entire campaign. 

 

Don't put Siddy into that group you constructed, which is responsible for losing so many VVS aircrafts, his existence is unambiguously metaphysical, he cannot die, all he does is take shape in another form. Boosting the Soviet job market with this increase in demand is rather questionable to begin with.

 

And thank you for the 😕 reactions earlier, getting free +1rep is always a blessing. 😁👌

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3 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

TAW, сервер, на котором вы должны ценить свою жизнь на протяжении всей кампании

I’m saying that the reward for 0 deaths is doubtful and does not support the activity of flights to TAW, but encourages people who are not very brave in return. Flying on statistics, afraid to spoil it and not get a reward.

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Good morning all,

 

I have a suggestion regarding the current stat and award system in TAW.

 

1- Change the "Top 5 Fighters" field to "Top 5 Air Kill Streak": This field would contain the highest air kill streak achieved during the campaign, even after the pilot died. For example, if 666GIAP_Chimango achieved 60 AK streak but died afterwards, this filed would list the 60 AK streak as long as it is one of the 5 highest streaks throughout the campaign. There is nothing worse than fly the whole campaign and lose your streak during the last maps. I'm sure many will agree that this demotivates a lot of people to fly in the last maps. It is also more realistic. Take Marseille, for example, he died with 100 and something kills and that number remained in history. It did not magically disappear because he died;

2- Change the "Top 5 Bombers" field to "Top 5 Ground Kill Streak": Same principle as the above;

3- Change the "Top 5 Tank Killers" to "Top 5 Tank Kill Streak": Same principle again.

4- Introduce a new field "Top 5 All Around Pilots": This field would use the following calculation:

  • Take the top (highest) "Flight Time" of the campaign, which in this tour is represented by JG4_Widukind (217.3 h), and group all the players who have, at least, 60% of that time flown in the campaign. In this tour, this would include all those players with around 130 hs flown. This way we only include those that devoted most of their time to the campaign and, most likely, participated in all or most maps. This would avoid including pilots that only flew in a few maps in this list even if they did exceptionally well;
  • After we group the pilots with a minimum of 130hs together, which for this tour gives us 22 pilots, we take their accumulated experience and divide by their corresponding number of deaths (Experience/deaths). The latter is to put more emphasis on survival and not only the amount of GK and AK achieved. The final list for this tour would be something like this:

           "Top 5 All Around Pilots":

           1.  =/Hospiz/=MetalHead: 1801 points

           2.  SCG_Polo: 1495

           3.  =LG=Mad_Mikhael: 1230

           4.  JG4_Kruger: 1139

           5.  72AGs_Volga73: 912

    

5- If you are determined to keep the real award stuff, only those who make it to the "Top 5 All Around Pilots" should receive them in my opinion. This calculation would only award those with the best performance AND most time dedicated to the campaign which is better than awarding people who fly at 7-8k and rarely go past the front lines or those on the opposite end of the spectrum who fly a lot but dont care about their lives.

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In a campaign like TAW, pilots life should means something and be important.

0 deaths to me means flying realistically and engaging when only seeing  an advantage and care for your own pilots's life, which is how you would fly in real life, wouldn't you? its a lot more immersive flying with this mentality.

No suicidal missions , Berloga kind of flying.

 

But If people do not like awards for 0 deaths, we need to somehow make pilot's life important in TAW,  how about penalties?

10 deaths and you are out of TAW for the rest of the campaign, that way you value your pilots life more.

And 10 lives are still a lot.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

In a campaign like TAW, pilots life should means something and be important.

0 deaths to me means flying realistically and engaging when only seeing  an advantage and care for your own pilots's life, which is how you would fly in real life, wouldn't you? its a lot more immersive flying with this mentality.

No suicidal missions , Berloga kind of flying.

 

But If people do not like awards for 0 deaths, we need to somehow make pilot's life important in TAW,  how about penalties?

10 deaths and you are out of TAW for the rest of the campaign, that way you value your pilots life more.

And 10 lives are still a lot.

 

 

Flying realistcally would be to follow orderes of the command and for example attack  irrespective the opposition the advancing enemy

 

And not to choose yourself  to stay only above Your own territory and attack only inferior enemy.

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What if Riksen and SCG_Riksen are the same person?

 

1f914.png.10ede3131d100d2061ff1c6b01c0d8b4.png

Edited by =L/R=todeskvlt
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8 minutes ago, =L/R=todeskvlt said:

What if Riksen and SCG_Riksen are the same person?

 

1f914.png.10ede3131d100d2061ff1c6b01c0d8b4.png

 

What if people change their names when they drop squad 🤔🤔🤔🤔😅

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1 hour ago, Riksen said:

Good morning all,

 

I have a suggestion regarding the current stat and award system in TAW.

(...)

This and greater penalty for death.

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That "130 hour requirement" is quantity over quality though. And you call that the "top 22 pilots", by time sunk in only??

 

It means that this would be only for those without family or those who feed of social welfare. Not saying all guys on the list do, for I know Polo works hard and has kids and wife, but still: Will it be Tactical Air War 2020 - "From Zero to Hero!"  ?🤔

 

That would exclude literally everyone who complained here. Funnily enough, even those who up-voted that idea.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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9 hours ago, 19FAB_Battler said:

Historical rewards in the virtual world must contain virtual status. These rewards are used in the game itself. If you switch to real ones, you need an award design for this project. Hold a contest for the best version of the award. As a result, it will be recognized by the majority and will have a status. I don’t understand how to reward for 0 deaths ?! ... SCG_Fenris_Wolf = 56 sorties ?! = TY = Anaconda-Samkis-WT = 61 departure ???))) Where is the logic? Want to get the reward you need to fly less so as not to die? The reward must receive the fittest ...

 

Best: II./JG51Castell 223 personal victories, 107 group victories 149 hours of raids = 232 sorties, 15 deaths. 666GIAP_Chimango 143 personal victories, 105 group victories, 192 hours of raids = 417 sorties. 18 deaths ... Cpt_Siddy 131 personal victory, 80 group, 137 hours of flight time = 384 departure, 10 deaths

 

Is most hard be in Top five without died  that make kills and died  all time, and is most hard to do, make it alone.

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Forgive the wall of text.

I feel like all the talk of realism requiring further limits on lives, and further incentives for pilot survival, misses a key point: the server is called Tactical Air WAR, not Tactical Air Survival. If we are trying to simulate the conditions of war then the first priority is not survival of individual pilots but victory, and therefore the grim mathematics of "acceptable losses" becomes the driving force. In sims we talk about how people don't value their virtual lives enough and this makes things unrealistic, as it doesn't simulate the stakes involved. This is fair. But the opposite end of the spectrum ignores high stakes as well - failing to take action or fulfill your mission could mean that friendly pilots died, offensives failed, or the enemy made significant gains. In some cases it meant that your family and friends were killed, enslaved, or made homeless. 

TAW simulates unsustainable losses by placing limits on numbers of planes and numbers of pilots, and this is an incentive at the team level to fly smart. But it also simulates consequences for failing to defend or attack targets. So there is a sort of balance of incentives, where the side as a whole is encouraged to fly smart but also take risks where necessary to win the war. In a war, the 'aggregate incentives' of loss rates gives an impetus to the command and control of each side to ensure losses are sustainable and proportional to the gains they produce. 

TAW simulates a pilot's desire to survive by limiting their virtual lives and giving out awards based on successful streaks.  In real life, obviously, a pilot wanted to survive the war and would take action to do so. But the difference here is that TAW has no personal incentive for the pilot to act in a way that ensures the victory of his side. A pilot can have a great time on TAW by flying low risk fighter sorties that give them access to the best planes and a good streak, all while their team's bombers are shot down, tanks destroyed, and ground targets captured. Losing the war on TAW means nothing to the individual pilot - in real life, it may have meant everything. 

The prevailing attitude seems to be that the most realistic behaviour for a combat pilot is to only engage when they are almost guaranteed to survive, and that to do otherwise is stupid and unrealistic. This is not the case.


Fighter pilots were frequently ordered into situations where they did not have a clear advantage and still engaged because that was what was required of them. A pilot's life is valuable to them but they are not the arbiters of their own fate; if orders and doctrine dictated that you had to fly at 4000 m to cover ground troops, you did not get to fly at 8000 m to make sure you could not be bounced, you had to accept the risk in order to complete your mission. You relied on other pilots adequately supporting you by providing high cover, and if they screwed up you died. You relied on planners, strategists and tacticians to decide your targets and broadly how to attack them, and if they decided on poor strategy you died. Failing to follow orders because it sounded dumb generally got you in hot water. In some cases it got you shot.

It's even worse for attack pilots. When you were ordered to attack a target, you attacked the target, you didn't decide not to because it was too well defended, you attacked it anyway and got yourself and/or a bunch of your friends killed by the AA or covering fighters. The Battle of Midway would never have been won if the dive bombers or their commanders decided their own lives were too valuable to make their attack.

So, if we are being realistic, we have to reward pilot survival in the context of their role and effectiveness. But this is incredibly hard to incentivise.

There is no way to reward a pilot who, at the risk of his own virtual life, flies to the aid of a comrade under attack, or fights on while outnumbered to give the attackers a chance to make their attack and escape. There is no way to reward a pilot who dies in a risky but necessary attack to blunt an enemy offensive. All those actions are realistic ones to take, and actions real pilots took during the war.

At the end of the day I don't think there is really a way in a video game to make pilots behave truly realistically, other than roleplay stuff enforced at a squad level. But I think further punishing pilots for losing their virtual lives is just going to negatively affect actual realism, rather than enhance it, and just give further incentive to the causes of the ongoing balance problems: fly fighters, fly high, and fly for the side with higher performance aircraft, in order to ensure your own survival. Which means more people flying axis only, more people flying fighters only,  and fewer people actually participating in the grim business of winning a tactical air war.

At a certain point, increasingly stringent rules just get harder and harder to navigate and don't add much to the fun of the server.

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3 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

That "130 hour requirement" is quantity over quality though. And you call that the "top 22 pilots", by time sunk in only??

 

It means that this would be only for those without family or those who feed of social welfare. Not saying all guys on the list do, for I know Polo works hard and has kids and wife, but still: Will it be Tactical Air War 2020 - "From Zero to Hero!"  ?🤔

 

That would exclude literally everyone who complained here. Funnily enough, even those who up-voted that idea.

 

It is not quantity over quality. Read the post again and you will see that the calculation takes to account Experience as well as Deaths which means only the ones with higher experiences (more AKs and GKs) will show up. So no, it will not award only those that fly a lot and have no life as you say but those that fly more and better than the others throughout the campaign. Yes, it would exclude a lot of pilots who do well and fly only 2 or 3 maps but that is fair. You cannot really aim to finish the Daytona 500 race with only a half tank of gas, can you? You may do the fastest lap and be in the first position for a while but once you run out of gas, you will drop positions. TAW is the same thing, it is like a marathon and it is not fair to award guys that do well for a few maps like me and you and not the ones who fly the entire campaign. From the list above, all of those pilots did way more than I did and contributed to the campaign more than I did and still they might be left out of any diplomas and awards.

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8 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

0 deaths to me means flying realistically and engaging when only seeing  an advantage and care for your own pilots's life, which is how you would fly in real life, wouldn't you? 

Not at all, realistically means following mission orders where many times you can’t choose to be in advantage, you risk your life, and only skill (individual and teamwork) + luck, makes you survive.
 

Tell an il2 or Stuka pilot to fly like you say, impossible. Your example of “realism” only applies for free hunt in a fighter. It has very little to do with the variety of tasks in TAW. 

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13 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

But If people do not like awards for 0 deaths, we need to somehow make pilot's life important in TAW,  how about penalties?

10 deaths and you are out of TAW for the rest of the campaign, that way you value your pilots life more.

And 10 lives are still a lot.

 

 

I am all in for more hardcore, even that it would mean that i would be out within the first wave. 

 

A while back i suggested on another server, that a single life should be all you have for a single campaign. Obviousely rescue flights etc should be implemented, and the current game mechanics giving a ton of instant pilot kills would make it a short campaign, but would that be bad? Faster rotation. 

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Next TAW?

 

7 hours ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

Not at all, realistically means following mission orders where many times you can’t choose to be in advantage, you risk your life, and only skill (individual and teamwork) + luck, makes you survive.
 

Tell an il2 or Stuka pilot to fly like you say, impossible. Your example of “realism” only applies for free hunt in a fighter. It has very little to do with the variety of tasks in TAW. 

Why not to create categories? Fighter, attacker, bomber.

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I think that this reward system is going to bring a lot of problems. First of all, cheating. Admins are going to have to take a close look at "aces" stats, looking for someone who "happens" to shoot down the same pilot again, and again... or mostly shoots down pilots that have just been created and are never seen again... You may say that it is not a very high reward, so it is not likely that someone will bother to cheat for it and take the risk of being caught and banned, but I have seen (not here) people cheating for free, so...

 

Second, it rewards a behaviour that is not the correct one imho. It has been said before, Tactical Air War does not mean not to take risks at all, to fly at 8.000 looking for an easy prey, regardless of team targets, and not to cooperate with other pilots in combined operations with only one goal, win the war.

 

It is true that if you do as I say, you have little chances not to be killed. But that is what war means. You can be an excelent pilot, a master of the skies, and one dang gunner smoking weed in an AAA outpost happens to score a hit right through your head while you cover an attack on enemy columns and that's it. You can be an ace but the course ouf war requires that you must attack a big bomber formation heavily escorted and press home your attack against all odds, and in doing so putting yourself in a very bad tactical situation, and surely you will become a killmark in the plane of an enemy pilot, a pilot that maybe you would have beat 10 times over 10 in a fair fight.

 

And in real life, if one pilot refused to take risks, and spend time wasting fuel going after personal numbers, he would be grounded and most likely be court martialed and shot. And with this sistem that behaviour is promoted and rewarded.

 

Last, If you put this reward system and combine it with the score system, it encourages a lot being a fighter pilot. Bomber and attack pilots have little chances to win any prize. Strange in a server that is supposed to encourage a tactical air war and not an ace duel.

 

My two cents. Cheers

 

Edited by -=PHX=-Tomcat_
grammar correction
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Many here insist on the fallacy that blues fly higher, also being lonewolfs. Okay, there are indeed players like that, but they are attributing this fact to SCG, attacking indirectly, based on the Fenris reward, ignoring the fact that SCG members fly together, many times providing cover to our attackers, just as Fenris mentioned early.
How many time did you flew Blue and saw reds above you? I ran away too many times because of that.
I'm not saying that reward only 0 death playersis the better approach but I disagree with this coward attack against SCG.

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IMO  an awarding ( medal or diploma) sistem is the following way:

 

-Best ( fighter, bomber,tank killer) live strike.

-Best  strike (fighter, bomber,tank killer, included the pilot if he was dead same times)

-Best 5 Squads in the list you can see in the stats, related to their  points scored.

 

In this way you could award all the different aspects.

Edited by ITAF_Rani
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Trust the flight sim community to have a melt down over a few medals. This is why we can't have nice things becuase people always bite that hand that feeds them.

 

LG provide an amazing service for free and all people do is complain, its their server their competitions its their choice. Either play or don't play depending on your views.

 

Some people only realize how good something is only when its gone.

 

 

Edited by Retrofly
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