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Tactical Air War

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39 minutes ago, -332FG-Hank_DG said:

I've seen on multiple occasions now, bombers getting one shot, wing off, from flak at 5000 meters

Aren't anti-aircraft guns supposed to shoot down a plane at 5000M?

Why not?

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I'm sorry but the aim of the antiaircraft is simply ridiculous, we have to endure the radar, the chat, the vultures that go to the radar and chat warnings and to top it off when we reach the target, we have to endure a antiaircraft that is ridiculously extremely accurate

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5 minutes ago, =gRiJ=Alado said:

I'm sorry but the aim of the antiaircraft is simply ridiculous, we have to endure the radar, the chat, the vultures that go to the radar and chat warnings and to top it off when we reach the target, we have to endure a antiaircraft that is ridiculously extremely accurate

And why do we need an anti-aircraft gun that can not shoot down a plane?

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1 hour ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

And why do we need an anti-aircraft gun that can not shoot down a plane?

and why do you need a anti-aircragft that can shot down all plane like vasili saichev???

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2 hours ago, [_FLAPS_]Dirt_Merchant said:

Any time my food starts to taste bland, I swing through this thread and soak up some salt by rubbing my food against the monitor.

The sodium here is unreal. I blame all of you for my high blood pressure. The least you could do is watch me for symptoms of a stroke.

If you see me flopping around through the air, missing easy shots, and crashing and burning...I'm probably not having a stroke, so carry on. If I shoot someone down you should probably be worried.

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2 minutes ago, =gRiJ=Alado said:

and why do you need a anti-aircragft that can shot down all plane like vasili saichev???

To protect our bombers from fighter

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Hello, why do I lose my experience points? Landing in enemy territory, alive and not captured. I do not see that in the "manual".

 

2019_11_20__19_10_23.thumb.jpg.278d5d4202402797b3439a51a1e4be52.jpg

 

 

Edited by jackdaw

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25 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

To protect our bombers from fighter

really???? and what does speed have to do with bacon?? man i believe that we talking diferents things. I write about aaa and you about bombers? rear gunners??

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1 hour ago, =gRiJ=Alado said:

really???? and what does speed have to do with bacon?? man i believe that we talking diferents things. I write about aaa and you about bombers? rear gunners??

Anti-aircraft guns in the game in order to protect ground objects, and not for beauty. They are there with one purpose in order to shoot down enemy planes and if they shoot down, then everything is correct.
Use anti-aircraft maneuvers, this will increase the chances of survival.
Where is it written that anti-aircraft guns are forbidden to shoot down planes at 5,000 m?

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15 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

Anti-aircraft guns in the game in order to protect ground objects, and not for beauty. They are there with one purpose in order to shoot down enemy planes and if they shoot down, then everything is correct.
Use anti-aircraft maneuvers, this will increase the chances of survival.
Where is it written that anti-aircraft guns are forbidden to shoot down planes at 5,000 m?

 

No one is saying that anti-aircraft should not be able to shoot down planes at 5000m. What we are all noticing is that the anti-aircraft seems really overly-accurate and strange this TAW. As mentioned, I have personally been hit by flak on its first shot while at high altitude and have witnessed 4 SCG members die to flack on the first shot as well over the first two days of TAW. In the past when it started going off around you, if you started moving, chances were low you would be hit. Right now, it seems to swipe you out of the sky with no warning which is not fun nor realistic. 

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So I got a time penalty for 20 hours, though i'm not sure why?

 

Initially when I went in I was told that the sides weren't balanced and that I was in position 3.

I waited till It said I was position 2, then position 1, then I got no message and so I took off and flew my sortie, shot down 1 enemy and got shot down, and then i'm told I can't take off for 19 hours 54 minutes? 

 

never had this happen before, and I can't see it in the manual page.

 

Can anyone clarify?

 

Thank you.

Edited by CrazyGman

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It was third your KIA on this map. After that situation you have 20 hrs penalty.

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19 minutes ago, =L/R=Rafcio said:

It was third your KIA on this map. After that situation you have 20 hrs penalty.

Ahh thanks. I wasn't aware of that.

Must have missed it in the manual.

 

Yeah I've had a bad start of it. this round

Edited by CrazyGman

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4 hours ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

No one is saying that anti-aircraft should not be able to shoot down planes at 5000m. What we are all noticing is that the anti-aircraft seems really overly-accurate and strange this TAW. As mentioned, I have personally been hit by flak on its first shot while at high altitude and have witnessed 4 SCG members die to flack on the first shot as well over the first two days of TAW. In the past when it started going off around you, if you started moving, chances were low you would be hit. Right now, it seems to swipe you out of the sky with no warning which is not fun nor realistic. 

 yes..and so after my first Flak death i planned diefferent (allthough "Defense " there was mentioend at "Low") (lol) i try change taktiks ,dived with a stuka from 3 k curving , droped and ran with 600km , curving in the village low almost on ground , away of the mg , yeah i did it and  thinking the houses would cover me, NO,  one  FLAK , one Shot DEAD....  come on...   A flak has to ckeck distance also... and seems to hit behind houses....   No , i dont believe this  ... , its never, ever "realistic" and doesn,t make fun this way  either.   If you have a chance to at least destroy the Flac with Fighters , but you gonna make 100% suicide.  I think something between WOL and this would be better for all and for the "Gameplay".  ;) 

 

 ... and finally its about "Flying"  and fighting in the air ,  fighters against Bombers, or fighters against fighters ... and so on..   AIRFIGHT  ;) !

( and not " The great AAA Fight" )

Edited by SPEEDWULF77

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8 hours ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

nor realistic. 

Why do you think it's unrealistic? Even if you count all the planes shot down by anti-aircraft guns, it will not be 100% hits per shot.

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I fly a bomber and have been shot down by anti-aircraft guns many times and at different altitudes. It's not fun, but it's part of the game. In real life, aircraft were also often destroyed by anti-aircraft guns. Currently, anti-aircraft guns shoot me down rarely, because I chose the heights where it is safest and I do anti-aircraft maneuvers.

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Good news the red flak is accurate, it's a nice countermeasure for TNT on Emil's 20mm. Every single burst means engine damage and out of combat to i16 and P40s. Not to mention the Emil out turns the Ishak with no effort, what a joke. The P-40? It has become a flying brick, useless, just one pass if you have height advantage and pray.


 Bad time to come back to TAW as a red fighter. Terrible performance for us since last patch.

 

Edited by 666GIAP_Chimango
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7 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

Good news the red flak is accurate, it's a nice countermeasure for TNT on Emil's 20mm. Every single burst means engine damage and out of combat to i16 and P40s. Not to mention the Emil out turns the Ishak with no effort, what a joke. The P-40? It has become a flying brick, useless, just one pass if you have height advantage and pray.


 Bad time to come back to TAW as a red fighter. Terrible performance for us since last patch.

 

 

I was quite surprised to get out turned by a Bf 110e with much less energy while flying an I-16 the other day....  :mellow: 

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1 hour ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

Why do you think it's unrealistic? Even if you count all the planes shot down by anti-aircraft guns, it will not be 100% hits per shot.

99%

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Lawyer, Wulfe and I aren't bomber pilots. We don't intentionally find ourselves near flak. But as it happens, you will randomly run across a non identified position near the front lines sometimes, and even chase down aircraft past destroyed airfields and defenses. Problem is that they immediately destroy our small 109s, fast, and constantly moving single engine aircraft. This is different to the bombers you fly which are atleast twice as big, aren't as fast, and can't move as rapidly as we can. Yet we are still suffering major losses. From what I've seen above, many people are experiencing the same problem. You go on about how this is realistic... Do you know how hard it is to shoot down an aircraft with the first couple of rounds? Damn near impossible when you haven't even allowed the first shot to reach around the aircraft so you can correct. You talk of Realism, Russian AA had ammunition shortages during the initial invasion. Not to mention, what type of joke is it to be shot down by AA. When I get shot down by one of your pilots, I know I either screwed up, or they out-played me. I learn something new, or reinforce an idea, eitherway, it was within my abilities todo something about it. With this AA, I see once tracer, or one smoke puff and then I see my screen go red, my plane is spinning, and I am falling towards the ground. (Actually the falling to the ground hasn't happened to me just yet, but to my wingmen). What type of fun is this?! (obviosuly taw isn't meant to be fun but you see what I mean) There isn't any control, you say oh, then avoid it, don't fly there. How am I suppose to know about hidden positions until they open up on me UNDER ME and I can't see them shooting at me because for some reason the AI underleads almost always instead of overleading, which means you don't usually see tracers ahead of you but behind you, meaning if you aren't checking your 6 at that exact moment you wont be taking evasive action and you will die. Clearly Lawyer, you have some deal with the AA crews, what is it? Do they give you their victories for some cigarettes and Vodka? I really don't know, but this AA has got to stop, its un-enjoyably, and frankly, I've seen more death to AA then aircraft... this is insane.

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…..And yet 109's can turn and burn less than 100m over Allied spawn airfields for minutes at a time, performing repeated strafing runs, then casually stroll away at tree top level.   

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Great idea, let's remove the anti-aircraft guns at all) They only interfere and take away resources.

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2 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

Great idea, let's remove the anti-aircraft guns at all) They only interfere and take away resources.

It is said that there is no more blind than he who does not want to see, nobody talks about removing it, we talk or I at least the extreme aim of the anti-aircraft, if you do not want to understand it is your problem,but that extremely ridiculous aim, flies red or blue. Although perhaps it is a good idea to attack the tanks and vehicles with il2 and 110 at 10000 meters

 
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9 minutes ago, =gRiJ=Alado said:

It is said that there is no more blind than he who does not want to see, nobody talks about removing it, we talk or I at least the extreme aim of the anti-aircraft, if you do not want to understand it is your problem,but that extremely ridiculous aim, flies red or blue. Although perhaps it is a good idea to attack the tanks and vehicles with il2 and 110 at 10000 meters

 

I understand perfectly. You need anti-aircraft guns that don't hit you)

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1 minute ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

I understand perfectly. You need anti-aircraft guns that don't hit you)

so sorry, excuse me

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In my opinion the AAA was very well implemented in the last TAW campaign or before the big BP patch. It was dangerous and you could not afford any mistakes, but it was not as deadly as it is now. In my experience, at least 75% of all dive-bombing attacks end up being shot down by the AAA. This is neither realistic nor good for the game. As mentioned here for certain targets it makes no sense to bombard them from 10000m.

Edited by [ZG_zbV]Wuerger62
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1 hour ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

I understand perfectly. You need anti-aircraft guns that don't hit you)

No, just with the accuracy set as mentioned on server TAW with "overcast" for example ...

I love to fly on WOL Bombers and Attackers, i fly alone (no squad) , i chat and give positon, ask for cover  and do contribute quite a lot doing good groundkills ..

 

Now i fly fighters..  ( i love too ;)   ) 

 

dont want to play a " lucky punch"  with bombers at 8000m ...  ( aiming at that altitude doesn,t work either, i,ve testet it offline , with wind checking , everything and so on, its just LUCK , that you hit the target you are looking for !! )  check by your own using the "aiming help" offline in "normal" , you,ll see 

 

LETS FLY :);)  !

 

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19 hours ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

Aren't anti-aircraft guns supposed to shoot down a plane at 5000M?

Why not?

Tell you what LAWYER I'll let you bring any AAA gun you'd like and then I don't even need to have a moving object.  I'd like you to shoot at anything over 2000 meters let alone 5000 meters.  Then I want to see your calculations to lead an object that is moving between 300 and 500Km/H and be able to knock it down with a first second or third shot.

 

The Iraqis had radar guided AAA (The largest in the world) and only shot down 2 American Aircraft during Desert storm.

All anyone wants is life like AAA guns.  can they kill you yes.  Do they do it on the first shot.  I have never heard of a plane being killed with one shot.

 

 

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1 hour ago, JG51_Ogg said:

Tell you what LAWYER I'll let you bring any AAA gun you'd like and then I don't even need to have a moving object.  I'd like you to shoot at anything over 2000 meters let alone 5000 meters.  Then I want to see your calculations to lead an object that is moving between 300 and 500Km/H and be able to knock it down with a first second or third shot.

 

The Iraqis had radar guided AAA (The largest in the world) and only shot down 2 American Aircraft during Desert storm.

All anyone wants is life like AAA guns.  can they kill you yes.  Do they do it on the first shot.  I have never heard of a plane being killed with one shot.

 

 

If you want to compare with real life, in reality, anti-aircraft guns fired not alone, but whole batteries and divisions. And they shelled certain areas of the sky at certain heights. And losses from anti-aircraft fire were not uncommon. Read about the work of air defense during the second world war. Only the server resources do not allow you to place the air defense batteries on the map, otherwise it should be even stronger than in even now

3 hours ago, [ZG_zbV]Wuerger62 said:

In my opinion the AAA was very well implemented in the last TAW campaign or before the big BP patch. It was dangerous and you could not afford any mistakes, but it was not as deadly as it is now. In my experience, at least 75% of all dive-bombing attacks end up being shot down by the AAA. This is neither realistic nor good for the game. As mentioned here for certain targets it makes no sense to bombard them from 10000m.

The pilots of our squadron have long been trying not to fly on a dive bombing alone. It really is suicide, especially if there are a lot of anti-aircraft guns on the target. But as far as I know this is done specifically to encourage the work of the group and that the target could protect themselves from loners in the absence of fighter cover.

If you work as a group, anti-aircraft guns are no longer a big problem. Or you're not very good at bombing

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7 hours ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

Buenas noticias, el flak rojo es preciso, es una buena contramedida para TNT en 20 mm de Emil. Cada ráfaga significa daños en el motor y fuera de combate para i16 y P40. Sin mencionar que el Emil apaga al Ishak sin esfuerzo, qué broma. El P-40? Se ha convertido en un ladrillo volador, inútil, solo una pasada si tienes ventaja de altura y rezas.


 Mal momento para volver a TAW como luchador rojo. Terrible rendimiento para nosotros desde el último parche.

 

 

Well, my feeling, I do not value if one side is better than the other. It is that personally I notice the P40 and Pe-2 super hard, it is frustrating to know that you have put them as you say the TNT but that they continue flying and return to base ... What I am going to do is that when I fly from Red I think that blue is superior, when I fly from blue I think that Red is better. I leave a fragment of yesterday afternoon

. Demolition confirmed: x1 Pe-2, x1 P-40 Attacked: x3 Pe-2, x3 P-40

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Pues mi sensacion , que no valoro si un bando esta mejor que el otro. Es que personalmente noto super duros el P40 y el Pe-2, es frustrante saber que les has metido como dices el TNT pero que siguen volando y regresan a base...
A lo que voy es que cuando vuelo de Rojo pienso que el azul es superior , cuando vuelo de azul pienso que el Rojo esta mejor.
Os dejo un fragmento de ayer por la tarde.

Derribo confirmado: x1 Pe-2, x1 P-40
Atacados: x3 Pe-2, x3 P-40

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Swing said:

Server Down ? :mda:

No. It's a DServer.exe bug that sometimes  doesn't allow people to connect.

 

I will restart it

Edited by =LG=Kathon

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Is easy be subjective  , i know.

 

Missions i was shot  down 

 

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=2128&name=666GIAP_Tumu

  On first burst my plane lost alierons... i manage to aproach to base... on second burst my planes was on flames. Second attack was very good.

*http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=2382&name=666GIAP_Tumu

  The same, first burst, alierons controls lost, second burst plane out.

*http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=3951&name=666GIAP_Tumu

  I recived damage from bomber, but not great damage... first burst of fighter. alierons out, plane down

*http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=6755&name=666GIAP_Tumu

  In this mission attaker are not registered... but is the same thing, in this case, first burst of enemy i lost engine.. i manage to shot to stuka before engine death.

*http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=4451&name=666GIAP_Tumu

On Il2 : great attack from fighter. I recived lot of damaged... i espected more rude IL2 but this was a great kill from bf109.

*http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=7699&name=666GIAP_Tumu

 Killed on first burst, i admit Stable made a excelent attack.

 

Looking my stats, i have the feeling. P40 is more fragile , or Blue bullets are more lethal.  ;)  on general terms on first attack , my engine is seriosly  damaged a or alierons are broked and have to bail.

 

Edited by 666GIAP_Tumu

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30 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Tumu said:

i have the feeling

 

This kind of feeling ? ;) 

 

 

Or is it more like this? :biggrin:

 

 

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On 11/20/2019 at 4:12 PM, JG7_X-Man said:

This is a video that shows what DerSheriff is trying to explain - it clearly shows what a miracle that human gunners hit anything at all. One thing the video failed to factor in as well -  WW II are not like present day commercial airlines, they were not stable gun platforms.

 

You cannot seriously compare what a quickly set up cheap video camera will "see" and what the human eye can really see.

 

I can cycle down the road on my bicycle and read all the road signs with ease and clarity. But if I try to record that with a video camera the camera shake will make reading the same signs very difficult to nigh on impossible. No need for a B-17 to prove this, all you need is a camera and some common sense. They don't call it "camera shake" for nothing.

 

============================

 

I don't see the problem with the AI bomber gunner accuracy. I ran a quick test in a LaGG-3 against a small formation of He-111's and made 6 firing passes through the formation without getting hit once. I also shot down one He-111...here is the track if you want to see a better way of attacking a bomber, than the lame 6 o'clock approach favored by the whiners :) 

 

https://we.tl/t-NuNzPkFy8l

 

NB., I make no claim to being a great pilot or a great shot. In fact the flying is pretty rough and the first few passes my aim and timing are well off till I get into my stride. But that's not what it's about. It's about giving yourself an opportunity to fire at the bomber while minimizing the bombers chance of hitting you. This is a historically accurate technique and it works here in IL2BOX too.

 

And if I can do this without the technochat or using the zoom I pretty much think anyone can.

 

On 11/20/2019 at 4:12 PM, JG7_X-Man said:

This is a video that shows what DerSheriff is trying to explain - it clearly shows what a miracle that human gunners hit anything at all.

 

If you can find a video that can do this be sure to let me know :) And while we are on the subject of miracles and bomber gunners, lets not forget that the USAAF 8th Air force gunners destroyed the Luftwaffe at least twice :biggrin:

Edited by Pict
Spelling, tweaking etc.
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2 hours ago, =LG=Kathon said:

No. It's a DServer.exe bug that sometimes  doesn't allow people to connect.

 

I will restart it


Same thing again after this round. Server is shown in the list, but no connection possible.

Edited by JG4_Knipser

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