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Tactical Air War

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4 hours ago, WG_Magners said:

If you want to go full realistic but not balance you should go further. Let Soviet AFs to be almost without AAA at first maps, limited number of lend lease aircrafts, one pilot’s life for the campaign and so on. 
I like TAW balanced and not fully historical (fully historical TAW should be always win by Allies). This semi historical setting still gives much more atmosphere than other servers with “fictional missions” due its more realistic gameplay, but not plane set.

I think the planeset is the most important thing to get historical, that's what sets it apart from other servers. On the other things concessions can be made for gameplay's sake. La5-FN's in early 42 is neither historical nor balanced.

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Historical Fidelity or Balance, that is a big question, however I do believe TAW is more than a simple server, it is supposed to give us the most authentic eastern front air war on modern flight sims and all this whining over balance takes a lot out of it. I believe people should just suck it up and move on.
The planeset usually generates lots of discussion since every side enjoys arguing the opposing side is superior in everyway which is tiresome. Germany has its pros and cons and so do soviets although I do agree the German planes ARE easier to fly, the solution is to keep the planeset the most historical possible (with the occasional exception eg: Macchi 202 with no 20mm gunpods, since it was the Macchi 200 who saw the most service in Russia); but then some may argue the germans with historical planeset get the advantage, which may aswell be true but can be counter balanced with other TAW mechanics and still maintain historical fidelity and I will list the idea I will use only fighters for the examples:

1941:
Is the start date for TAW however it's over Moscow already, Barbarossa has already reached its peak and the numbers in the air start to pan in favor to the VVS.

3 lives for both axis and soviet pilots however we rebalance the number of planes each pilot has access to, slightly more I16s to the soviets, maybe 3:4 or 2:3 instead of the 3:3 we currently have on map #1, but generally keep it balanced with only this slight advantage

1942:
Now should be Map #3 and more interestign planes join the frey however we have the Macchi with the 20mm gunpod which never saw service and was more of a prototype for the Macchi 205, the total number of fighter planes currently is 4:4 divided amongst various aircraft, increase it to 4:5 or 3:4, with aircraft which flew in that timeframe and not adding planes due to balance but add them for historical fidelity. On subsequent maps we can already start changing the life system, for  3:4 or 2:3 in favor of the reds, that will also probably help with the player balance issues

1943:
Now this is where the campaign gets really messy imo, with Bodenplatte planes all sprinkled in at random for no reason. Keep it eastern front, don't worry about Bodenplatte aircraft unless TAW plans on a Rhineland campaign. The numbers then should imo reflect the results of the last 2 years, if reds have the majority of points then they maintain their advantage, however if the axis won most of the past maps then the numbers are balanced again.

All in all, although not perfect and by far not well described I hope you understand my suggestion and bring it to further discussions, I believe we fly TAW for the immersion and authenticity and the more the TAW devs shift from this, the less interesting it becomes, at least for me; I also take into consideration that if someone thinks balance is the most important thing of all there are plenty of servers who are all about balance while we have not a single one who strives for historical accuracy/authenticity. 
 

Edited by SCG_Faerber
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There was no bodenplatte planes in last 2 TAW's. La5FN is available on 2 last maps so it's not 1942. 

We are now at developing new campaign on rheinland map which will cover from 2 to 4 maps as a separate campaign probably. If you have any ideas about it post it here. For now we are preparing standard TAW maps with domination by capture cities and airfields but there are ideas about make for example a map where allies have to aerial bomb many depots like rhur region and others in specific X days and destroy X percentage of depots to win map, Germans has to defend it and not let allies to destroy X percentage of depots in specific X days of map to win. and there will be no groud battles like on old eastern front. It could be a prelude to invasion and standard TAW battles. What do you think about it? Early map of aerial bombing of Germany below. Red dots are bombers airfields, orange allied fighter airfields. Black dots axis airfields and blue squares are depots to defend by Germans.  

Screenshot_2019-10-07-16-12-32.jpg

Edited by =LG=Coldman
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1 hour ago, =LG=Coldman said:

There was no bodenplatte planes in last 2 TAW's. La5FN is available on 2 last maps so it's not 1942. 

We are now at developing new campaign on rheinland map which will cover from 2 to 4 maps as a separate campaign probably. If you have any ideas about it post it here. For now we are preparing standard TAW maps with domination by capture cities and airfields but there are ideas about make for example a map where allies have to aerial bomb many depots like rhur region and others in specific X days and destroy X percentage of depots to win map, Germans has to defend it and not let allies to destroy X percentage of depots in specific X days of map to win. and there will be no groud battles like on old eastern front. It could be a prelude to invasion and standard TAW battles. What do you think about it? Early map of aerial bombing of Germany below. Red dots are bombers airfields, orange allied fighter airfields. Black dots axis airfields and blue squares are depots to defend by Germans.  

 

 

Creative, I like it.  Different mechanics giving a new experience that doesn't replace the eastern front.  Running it as a separate campaign in between eastern front campaigns sounds reasonable.

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Bf109 G-2 was serviced weeks after Fw190 A-3, as you probably know. So it would be great to have them appear in the same map as 0/1. 

You could nerf the A-3 roll and weight as a dogfighter in her first iteration, by only allowing her to spawn with 4 cannons, as that was her historical roll-out in the East anyway. No ETC500, removed guns, or any other extras. 

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4 hours ago, =LG=Coldman said:

There was no bodenplatte planes in last 2 TAW's. La5FN is available on 2 last maps so it's not 1942. 

We are now at developing new campaign on rheinland map which will cover from 2 to 4 maps as a separate campaign probably. If you have any ideas about it post it here. For now we are preparing standard TAW maps with domination by capture cities and airfields but there are ideas about make for example a map where allies have to aerial bomb many depots like rhur region and others in specific X days and destroy X percentage of depots to win map, Germans has to defend it and not let allies to destroy X percentage of depots in specific X days of map to win. and there will be no groud battles like on old eastern front. It could be a prelude to invasion and standard TAW battles. What do you think about it? Early map of aerial bombing of Germany below. Red dots are bombers airfields, orange allied fighter airfields. Black dots axis airfields and blue squares are depots to defend by Germans.  

Screenshot_2019-10-07-16-12-32.jpg

Seperate campaign?! Huzzah!

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I'm totally up for a new strategic format including an asymmetric style campaign!

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8 hours ago, =LG=Coldman said:

We are now at developing new campaign on rheinland map which will cover from 2 to 4 maps as a separate campaign probably

 

booo hisss

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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sad for me read bonderplate will be a separate campaign with different format... i like actual format and i hope bonderplatte will add more planes and scenario to campaign.

Idea of previous bombs raids.... sounds interesting...  but i have the feeling.... an important feature of campaing is gone. I understand a TAW like a competition... both teams have same goal, but differets tools... each time have to organizce own tactic.... resume all game in one team bomb and other defend.... is a limitation for me.

 

thx

 

Edited by 666GIAP_Tumu
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11 hours ago, =LG=Coldman said:

Red dots are bombers airfields, orange allied fighter airfields. Black dots axis airfields and blue squares are depots to defend by Germans.  

Screenshot_2019-10-07-16-12-32.jpg

 

In my opinion the Depots shouldn't be close to the frontline. It will just to people bombing them with P-38s. Depots should remain a strategic target which need to be attacked from altitude. 

The P-38 will also be problematic in the "normal" TAW campaign due to its bomb load in terms of Depots.

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1 hour ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

In my opinion the Depots shouldn't be close to the frontline. It will just to people bombing them with P-38s. Depots should remain a strategic target which need to be attacked from altitude. 

The P-38 will also be problematic in the "normal" TAW campaign due to its bomb load in terms of Depots.

True...its again a Problem of to Slow spawn in(By triggers) or Turning AAA

its the Problem of AAA Solved?

I am for only one campaign of Map 1-9.

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I quite like the idea of separate campaigns. The air war was really different on the Western Front from the Eastern Front so assembling them into one would make all really game-y, well done guys!

 

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Do you have a plans to add AI bombers for Allies site? It will be nice to have opportunity to escort formation of bombers at high alt.

 

My proposition is:

During AI bomber spawn, info for allies is shown in the form of a message. The message contains information about the height of the formation, the square in which it is currently located and for what target it flies.

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12 hours ago, SCG_Limbo said:

I'm totally up for a new strategic format including an asymmetric style campaign!

 

 

You mean, all Never-Russia-wheraboos regretting their evil ways and switching to Allied side after seeing the light in democracy and freedom? 

 

I bet that other campaign is going to be Axis under manned, and the people who now fly VVS, will have to man the axis side, because ofc we do. 

Help me dog if i see the Whermaconauts who have flied past 2+ years nothing but Axis suddenly switch sides... 

 

Disable the double account on both sides, make it 10-12 map continuous campaign so we can finally have even teams trough the campaign. 

US planes are finally carrot big enough to make even teams happen, and you are just gonna squander that and let the stacking continue? 

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4 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

You mean, all Never-Russia-wheraboos regretting their evil ways and switching to Allied side after seeing the light in democracy and freedom? 

 

I bet that other campaign is going to be Axis under manned, and the people who now fly VVS, will have to man the axis side, because ofc we do. 

Help me dog if i see the Whermaconauts who have flied past 2+ years nothing but Axis suddenly switch sides... 

 

Disable the double account on both sides, make it 10-12 map continuous campaign so we can finally have even teams trough the campaign. 

US planes are finally carrot big enough to make even teams happen, and you are just gonna squander that and let the stacking continue? 

 

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2 hours ago, AlienAlienzo said:

Do you have a plans to add AI bombers for Allies site? It will be nice to have opportunity to escort formation of bombers at high alt.

 

My proposition is:

During AI bomber spawn, info for allies is shown in the form of a message. The message contains information about the height of the formation, the square in which it is currently located and for what target it flies.

 

That's a good idea, especially if the depots will be at the back and will need to be attacked by level-bombers. I don't know if many people like or know how to level-bomb well, so some AI help would be needed. I will also add that once the AI bomber formations get close to the front line then the Germans will need to be notified as well (radar), otherwise you could get AI bomber formations sneaking by and changing the outcome of the map. Also, the number of AI bombers spawned should change based on the number of people on the server.

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1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

You mean, all Never-Russia-wheraboos regretting their evil ways and switching to Allied side after seeing the light in democracy and freedom? 

 

I bet that other campaign is going to be Axis under manned, and the people who now fly VVS, will have to man the axis side, because ofc we do. 

Help me dog if i see the Whermaconauts who have flied past 2+ years nothing but Axis suddenly switch sides... 

 

Disable the double account on both sides, make it 10-12 map continuous campaign so we can finally have even teams trough the campaign. 

US planes are finally carrot big enough to make even teams happen, and you are just gonna squander that and let the stacking continue? 

 

 

If disabling double accounts is an option, then I agree.  Otherwise it should be a separate campaign because they'll all just switch anyway.

 

7 hours ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

In my opinion the Depots shouldn't be close to the frontline. It will just to people bombing them with P-38s. Depots should remain a strategic target which need to be attacked from altitude. 

The P-38 will also be problematic in the "normal" TAW campaign due to its bomb load in terms of Depots.

 

 

I would imagine that if there is a separate bodenplatte campaign then all unhistorical bodenplatte aircraft will be removed from the eastern front.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas
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I dont see how P38 can be problematic. 

 

Germans for long time had supremancy as for bomb load on their fighters (not to mention the bombers) . 110 is taking more bombload than PE 2, the 190s bomb load is also quite heavy.

 

But for some the parity seems like opression...

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2 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

I dont see how P38 can be problematic. 

 

Germans for long time had supremancy as for bomb load on their fighters (not to mention the bombers) . 110 is taking more bombload than PE 2, the 190s bomb load is also quite heavy.

 

But for some the parity seems like opression...


Bomb load is only relevant to big targets such as depots/concentrated factories (overall strategic targets), to tactical targets such as tank column or TAW defenses it actually pays to bring smaller bombs in big quantity. 
On the Western front where the allied objective is strategic and the axis one is defensive/airfield raids, the P38 bomb load could render high altitude bombing useless since the P38 could do the job on its own taking away the core feeling for the campaign which is its historical authenticity.

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13 minutes ago, SCG_Faerber said:


Bomb load is only relevant to big targets such as depots/concentrated factories (overall strategic targets), to tactical targets such as tank column or TAW defenses it actually pays to bring smaller bombs in big quantity. 
On the Western front where the allied objective is strategic and the axis one is defensive/airfield raids, the P38 bomb load could render high altitude bombing useless since the P38 could do the job on its own taking away the core feeling for the campaign which is its historical authenticity.

Well, P-38 was used as an escort fighter, so just restricting bomb loads on 'strategic' missions would solve the problem there.

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1 minute ago, RedKestrel said:

Well, P-38 was used as an escort fighter, so just restricting bomb loads on 'strategic' missions would solve the problem there.

yeah, I thought that was the general assumption

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On 10/16/2019 at 7:19 PM, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

You mean, all Never-Russia-wheraboos regretting their evil ways and switching to Allied side after seeing the light in democracy and freedom? 

 

I bet that other campaign is going to be Axis under manned, and the people who now fly VVS, will have to man the axis side, because ofc we do. 

Help me dog if i see the Whermaconauts who have flied past 2+ years nothing but Axis suddenly switch sides... 

 

Disable the double account on both sides, make it 10-12 map continuous campaign so we can finally have even teams trough the campaign. 

US planes are finally carrot big enough to make even teams happen, and you are just gonna squander that and let the stacking continue? 

 

That's a very good point

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Well if a Yak 9 or La 7 show up you could have three sided scenarios.  There were many instances of Soviet- US clashes at the end of the war.  Oh, need the IL-10 too.

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On 10/16/2019 at 10:15 AM, =LG=Coldman said:

There was no bodenplatte planes in last 2 TAW's. La5FN is available on 2 last maps so it's not 1942. 

We are now at developing new campaign on rheinland map which will cover from 2 to 4 maps as a separate campaign probably. If you have any ideas about it post it here. For now we are preparing standard TAW maps with domination by capture cities and airfields but there are ideas about make for example a map where allies have to aerial bomb many depots like rhur region and others in specific X days and destroy X percentage of depots to win map, Germans has to defend it and not let allies to destroy X percentage of depots in specific X days of map to win. and there will be no groud battles like on old eastern front. It could be a prelude to invasion and standard TAW battles. What do you think about it? Early map of aerial bombing of Germany below. Red dots are bombers airfields, orange allied fighter airfields. Black dots axis airfields and blue squares are depots to defend by Germans.  

Screenshot_2019-10-07-16-12-32.jpg

 

@=LG=Coldman My 2 cents:

 

I think a combined campaign would be an interesting possibiity.

 

Despite the merging of 2 different real life campaigns, it think 8 eastern maps with 2-4 western maps added at the end would simulate the progress of the technology across the entire war.

 

Germany starting with a slight advantage in technology, and then the balance slowly shifting the other way. It would make the choice of coalition a difficult and rewarding one: do i want to do the hard yards early on or later? 

 

It would also mean that there is not or less of a "preferred" side. 2 campaigns means the east will have a numerical advantage for the Axis, and the west will have a numerical advantage for the allies. When you merge the plane sets it becomes hard to pick a side... which i think will make it more exciting to see how it plays out, both in the game and in terms of numbers:)

 

Either way i'll be signing up :)

 

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2 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

 

That's a very good point

 

 

It is, and I would 100% support it IF there is a way to prevent double accounts.  Is there any way do that?

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1 hour ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

It is, and I would 100% support it IF there is a way to prevent double accounts.  Is there any way do that?

 

I believe there is. We had a single account system before. I hope the TAW devs can have a single campaign system with both fronts available and single account per player to avoid the side switch we know will happen once we hit the Rhineland map. 

Edited by SCG_Riksen
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On 10/16/2019 at 12:59 AM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Bf109 G-2 was serviced weeks after Fw190 A-3, as you probably know. So it would be great to have them appear in the same map as 0/1. 

You could nerf the A-3 roll and weight as a dogfighter in her first iteration, by only allowing her to spawn with 4 cannons, as that was her historical roll-out in the East anyway. No ETC500, removed guns, or any other extras. 


The thing with the Fw 190 is that when it entered service on the Eastern Front it still had the earlier reduced engine settings, iirc 1.35 ata at 2450 RPM, it's the same issue with trying to use the 109 F-4 or Yak-1 in the earlier 1941 scenarios.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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On 10/16/2019 at 1:15 AM, =LG=Coldman said:

There was no bodenplatte planes in last 2 TAW's. La5FN is available on 2 last maps so it's not 1942. 

We are now at developing new campaign on rheinland map which will cover from 2 to 4 maps as a separate campaign probably. If you have any ideas about it post it here. For now we are preparing standard TAW maps with domination by capture cities and airfields but there are ideas about make for example a map where allies have to aerial bomb many depots like rhur region and others in specific X days and destroy X percentage of depots to win map, Germans has to defend it and not let allies to destroy X percentage of depots in specific X days of map to win. and there will be no groud battles like on old eastern front. It could be a prelude to invasion and standard TAW battles. What do you think about it? Early map of aerial bombing of Germany below. Red dots are bombers airfields, orange allied fighter airfields. Black dots axis airfields and blue squares are depots to defend by Germans.  

Screenshot_2019-10-07-16-12-32.jpg

 

And remeber - allies will fly over German teritorry, not over Russia.

So please, make the special rule about being captured when bailed or crash landed behind front line.

This time won't be a friendly civilains to help get back to friendly lines. Now it wil be peasantry with forks 😀

 

Ramm.

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On 10/16/2019 at 1:19 PM, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

You mean, all Never-Russia-wheraboos regretting their evil ways and switching to Allied side after seeing the light in democracy and freedom? 

 

I bet that other campaign is going to be Axis under manned, and the people who now fly VVS, will have to man the axis side, because ofc we do. 

Help me dog if i see the Whermaconauts who have flied past 2+ years nothing but Axis suddenly switch sides... 

 

 

I'd volunteer to balance teams and fly Blue but, I'd have to join the Red comms and ask these newly-converted Pony pilots best tactics for using the whera-boost.  It all feels like it could become a major conflict of interest.... 🙁

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14 hours ago, SCG_Faerber said:


Bomb load is only relevant to big targets such as depots/concentrated factories (overall strategic targets), to tactical targets such as tank column or TAW defenses it actually pays to bring smaller bombs in big quantity. 
On the Western front where the allied objective is strategic and the axis one is defensive/airfield raids, the P38 bomb load could render high altitude bombing useless since the P38 could do the job on its own taking away the core feeling for the campaign which is its historical authenticity.

Simple solution. Lock bomb loads on fighters

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2 minutes ago, =LG=Coldman said:

Simple solution. Lock bomb loads on fighters

Is this WoL or TAW? 

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2 hours ago, JG700_Rammjager said:

 

And remeber - allies will fly over German teritorry, not over Russia.

So please, make the special rule about being captured when bailed or crash landed behind front line.

This time won't be a friendly civilains to help get back to friendly lines. Now it wil be peasantry with forks 😀

 

Ramm.

 

 

Most of that area is occupied by Germoney, i doubt the civilians under occupation are that co operative towards it. 

 

Its only after you are in actual German territory does that rule need apply, and i imagine that there will be a push towards occupied territory before we enter the Fatherland. 

Plus, the US pilots are all beautiful like super models, no one want to wish harm for such creatures, friend or foe. 

b31c4ced285e73f40c884d009c5a7da6.thumb.png.f7756a77e3d097643b0194c0eba0a0d6.png

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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3 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

Is this WoL or TAW? 

If the goal is to produce a fighter escort/strategic bombing mission dynamic, then it makes sense to restrict bomb loads on fighters for those scenarios. For more tactical scenarios, no reason to restrict bombs.

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We could use the A-20 as a makeshift Droop snoot and the fighters drop on its mark.

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Would this new campaign be intended to just be mostly fighter vs fighter action? Feel like having both teams actually have to balance ground attack and interception is one of the things that makes TAW so dynamic. Just having one team trying to intercept you in fighters all the time feels like a axis wet dream and very boring for the other side.

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Or, you could just use the B-25 bot driven planes. Spawn them in at high alt maybe a dozen or so at a go, server calls out incoming bomber raid and off they go. Allies defend, Germans attack and hay presto, Allied bombing commences. It works well on Combat Box in missions where it is implemented. Picking the targets for them might be a little more tricky given the more dynamic nature of a TAW map but the airfields are fixed targets and the depots too. It isn't as nice as having player controlled bombers, I'll grant, but if people are going to make a fuss over fighter bombers all of the sudden even though they were fine in the past, even thought that was a big thing at the time, there isn't much in the way of options.

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10 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

If the goal is to produce a fighter escort/strategic bombing mission dynamic, then it makes sense to restrict bomb loads on fighters for those scenarios. For more tactical scenarios, no reason to restrict bombs.

 

I guess I misunderstood when I read in this thread that one of TAW's main philosophies was that if it existed and was used during the time period for the map, it was available to the team that had it.  It's not the Allies' fault the P-38 is currently the best strike bomber in the sim. 

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The limitation of carrying bombs should depend on the results of the bombing of the supply
and factories, ports, ships, trains, stations.

 

If a team favors hunting for their own pleasure, they should expect to see a large volume of bombs falling on them.

 

Do you think we could ever have mobile units on the ground, like trains and convoys?

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On 10/16/2019 at 2:15 AM, =LG=Coldman said:

separate campaign probably.

I think this is a very bad idea.

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