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=LG=Leutnant_Artur-Last Wednesday at 5:08 PM
 
planeset is updated including all Kuban planes + g6 and La5FN
 

 

 

Dziękuję!

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All gunners are a bit OP in my opinion. 

 

That is correct, except for the IL2 gunner.

The gunner in the IL2 is always drunk, they can´t hit an elephant.

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I flew a ton of German bomber missions in the last couple TAW campaigns and I could probably count on my hand how many times my gunners shot down an intercepting fighter. It happened so rare, despite my gunners often blazing away until their ammo was gone, that pretty much remember each time because of my surprise.

 

I’ve been shot down by PE2 gunners probably in the triple digits on TAW. If gunner skill levels are changed to normal for both sides, I guess that would be fine with me. It’s not like German gunners do a heck of a lot even on Ace.

 

To those that say “but German gunners make impossible shots, too, it’s happened to me”, go fly 100+ consecutive sorties in a He-111, Ju-88, or even 110. Then come talk. If you’re saying that, your data set is clearly limited.

 

The real question is how many of the planes your gunners shot up made it home. I have flown several sorties in a Yak, Mig or a LA where first contact with the enemy was a 111, I made my pass at high speed from a good angle, landed several good shots home crippling or killing the bomber or springing a leak so my buddies have an easier time seeing him only to get the case oil spread all over my canopy, or the water cooler busted or control linkages cut. Though that last one is admittedly rare any one of these damages will end a sortie. Depending on the distance home and if there are any difficulties disengaging I often time end up putting the plane down in a field. It isn't  the spectacular and instantly visible effect as found with the 12 mm rounds, I will grant, but a dead plane is a dead plane.

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The real question is how many of the planes your gunners shot up made it home. I have flown several sorties in a Yak, Mig or a LA where first contact with the enemy was a 111, I made my pass at high speed from a good angle, landed several good shots home crippling or killing the bomber or springing a leak so my buddies have an easier time seeing him only to get the case oil spread all over my canopy, or the water cooler busted or control linkages cut. Though that last one is admittedly rare any one of these damages will end a sortie. Depending on the distance home and if there are any difficulties disengaging I often time end up putting the plane down in a field. It isn't the spectacular and instantly visible effect as found with the 12 mm rounds, I will grant, but a dead plane is a dead plane.

Please, Disarray, if anyone should do this it should be you. Go fly 100+ German bomber missions online and then we can actually have a discussion. Mix in some fighter sorties where you try to stop some PE2’s, while you’re at it. I see you in particular hop instantly into these debates in many different threads and you really don’t bring much to the table. It’s always clear your viewpoint is very narrow.

 

TAW should lower all bomber AI gunners down, that way German defense will continue to be ineffective, but PE2’s won’t be as ridiculous as AI logic/weapon effectiveness in the game has allowed for.

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So a person attacking a German bomber has no idea what is going on in the situation at all? I kind of feel like that is a ridiculous standard. I would think that the person getting shot at by the gunners would have a lot more information than the person flying the bomber, not aiming the guns, not observing the fall of shot, not observing the damage inflicted on target. Or are you really going to argue that you, the bomber pilot, knows better what is happening to the fighter attacking you than the person in the fighter? I make no claim to any great experience as a German bomber pilot, I never have, but I don't have to fly 100 missions to see the dynamic in play here.  

 

I get it, you've pitched your camp, taken your side. You don't like that I disagree with you. Fine. But don't try this weak argument. It has, I think, been established that the gunners for both sides work in an identical way, the difference is that one is using an objectively better gun. Now, do you really want to take the stance that things should be changed to compensate for one sides lacking equipment? I don't think that you do want to take that stance because the natural extension of that stance is absurd. I think you would be far better served coming to grips with the reality that PE-2's are better defended from direct attack than their German counterparts and start trying to figure out a way you can work around that fact. Flying a Yak, or even worse a LaGG, the Soviet players have little choice but to accept that German fighters will have certain advantages over them and figure out a way around this if they have any designs on winning. Why should German bombers be so different? Why should German fighters looking to attack a PE-2 be so different? You want to make an argument for fairness, but the way you're going about doing so looks a lot like you are trying to carve out some kind of an advantage rather than overcoming an obstacle you can't negotiate on your own.

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Just checking that I have it correct. We have to re-register for the next campaign even if we were registered before, correct? We also have to start our sauad again as well?

 

Additionally, when is registration supposed to be open for this campaign? Will it be a day or two prior or on start?

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Abridged version: "you're a German bomber pilot only, my views on this still matter even though I'm a VVS pilot only"

 

I have flown many online missions on both sides, literally just flew with you on VVS the other day. When you get a good picture on each side, you'll be able to bring a lot more to these sorts of discussions. Just give it a try! 

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Yes, you will have to re-register for the upcoming campaign. Not sure about the squad angle but I should think they would have to be reformed as well. As to when, that's anyone's guess outside of LG. At least I hope LG knows.

 

Hen, I have flow both sides. I do fly Red more than Blue online, true, but I'm not entirely ignorant of that prospective. And in my experience the difficulty with killing the PE-2 and the defenselessness of German bombers are rather exaggerated. Why this is the case I don't know, I have rather unflattering suspicions, but I don't know.

Edited by Disarray

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Yes, you will have to re-register for the upcoming campaign. Not sure about the squad angle but I should think they would have to be reformed as well. As to when, that's anyone's guess outside of LG. At least I hope LG knows.

 

Hen, I have flow both sides. I do fly Red more than Blue online, true, but I'm not entirely ignorant of that prospective. And in my experience the difficulty with killing the PE-2 and the defenselessness of German bombers are rather exaggerated. Why this is the case I don't know, I have rather unflattering suspicions, but I don't know.

It is over exaggerated by some, I completely agree on that. But, there’s still a clear difference, which is not the fault of any VVS pilots or server admins. It’s just some fundamentals of the AI, really. I survive 80%+ of my bomber runs. Tactics and piloting are key, if gunners come into play you’re pretty much going to get pretty banged up no matter what you’re flying. Complaints come when things seem unrealistic, PE2’s are designed in a way that seems to have all the advantages for how the AI logic acts. Yes, gunners on both sides make unrealistic shots and damage, PE2’s just do it way more and it really kills immersion for me and many others. It’s just a combination of how the plane is designed/armed in real life with how the devs codes AI for gunners, turned out to be a jackpot situation for PE2’s relative to other bombers. Edited by HenHawk
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I simply do not see the issue if the gunners for either side are using the same code. It would be as ludicrous to say that 109's need to be modified in such a way so they cannot go faster than 550 kph because a Yak 1 can't keep up otherwise. The PE-2 has a fantastically powerful defensive gun set, true, but the German gunners score hits at a similar rate. How is that unfair?

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Hen, I have flow both sides. I do fly Red more than Blue online, true, but I'm not entirely ignorant of that prospective. And in my experience the difficulty with killing the PE-2 and the defenselessness of German bombers are rather exaggerated. Why this is the case I don't know, I have rather unflattering suspicions, but I don't know.

WOL stat, dec-2017
 
NAME          SORTIES AK       PERC
he111 h16      179          44     0,245810055865922
pe2 35 series 910         138     0,151648351648352
he111 h6        1738        89      0,0512082853855006
ju88                2494       381     0,152766639935846
bf 110 e2        3073       303     0,0986007159127888
pe2 87 series 5583       1062   0,190220311660398
 
as you can see, the Pe2 87 is better than ju88, 110e2, 111 h6
 
best one is he111 h16
 
P.S: the stat here is not 100% clear, some people attacked the AF and it will be also calculated as AK (human player on the ground). But i think it shows at least that the blue team should use he111 h16: =)
Edited by Kra

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You can try it yourself on 72AG server. There is the point "Poligon" where you can start your Pe2 in the air and 5x T IV just in 3 km radious. Do not forget to load 10x100. To be honest was a big surprise for me how easy it is. I tried before only 4x250 vs tanks on WOL server and it works perfect, but 10x100 just do it better:)

 

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/ru/sortie/log/2352623/?tour=27

What are the wind settings on this server and is the column flanked by trees? The usual TAW experience often involves ridiculous winds and killer trees

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I simply do not see the issue if the gunners for either side are using the same code. It would be as ludicrous to say that 109's need to be modified in such a way so they cannot go faster than 550 kph because a Yak 1 can't keep up otherwise. The PE-2 has a fantastically powerful defensive gun set, true, but the German gunners score hits at a similar rate. How is that unfair?

Now you’re being a bit silly, pretty poor analogy. This issue is about immersion for me. It kills the whole feel of the game to have my engine shot out or to be pk’d when I setup a well planned attack, but still get hit with what should be an impossible shot. PE2’s are just more able to do this with they way they are designed and the way the AI is. I go back to my original post, if you still want to act like this is an imaginary thing held in the minds of people that want to see the blue side gain all the advantages, then take my challenge and fly a lot of sorties on the German side. It really should say something that I fly bombers for the most part and am still asking to universally adjust AI levels to normal.

 

 

WOL stat, dec-2017

 

NAME SORTIES AK PERC

he111 h16 179 44 0,245810055865922

pe2 35 series 910 138 0,151648351648352

he111 h6 1738 89 0,0512082853855006

ju88 2494 381 0,152766639935846

bf 110 e2 3073 303 0,0986007159127888

pe2 87 series 5583 1062 0,190220311660398

 

as you can see, the Pe2 87 is better than ju88, 110e2, 111 h6

 

best one is he111 h16

 

P.S: the stat here is not 100% clear, some people attacked the AF and it will be also calculated as AK (human player on the ground). But i think it shows at least that the blue team should use he111 h16: =)

Very interesting stats. Kathon, do you have similar stats for TAW? Not sure WoL is the best data set, but it does give a fair picture of things. Edited by HenHawk

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What are the wind settings on this server and is the column flanked by trees? The usual TAW experience often involves ridiculous winds and killer trees

 

As i said before the good weather needed. Somethimes it is there, at lest 15..20% of the missions.

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Hen, well planned attacks get shut down, if this were not the case then everyone with a well put together plan would succeed even the plans that are working in opposition to each other. You can do everything according to your well considered and set up plan and still fall flat on your face, even if you properly accounted for all the variables and possible outcomes. Sometimes you need something to go left in your plan and instead it goes right, or up or down or any other direction that isn't left. What are called impossible shots get made. Any plane with a tail gunner is capable of making these 'impossible' shots, not just the PE-2's gunners. 

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The number of German sorties I've flown is entirely irrelevant to this issue.

 

It's completely relevant to your opinion on the topic. It gets so tiresome to try to find solutions to problems that allow everyone to have a fun experience, only to have those that either over exaggerate the issue or completely discount others and deny anything even exits.  There is no reason multiple threads, videos, and stats need to be presented to you, or anyone else, that once again shows that there is a clear unrealistic behavior to the PE2 gunners.  All you nonsense paragraphs filled with "I think" and "it shouldn't be a problem" are just a bunch of one-sided theories. There are many that have practical experience and have looked into the stats. Do that, then come back and discuss. In the meantime, let everyone else have a discussion about what to do with something that is a known sim-killing experience.

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If the gunners are of equal skill, that is the gunners on any plane are as likely to hit the target they are shooting at then adjusting the gunner's skill is a pointless exercise. All you will achieve, even if we assume your premise that the PE-2 gunners are somehow special, is make all the gunners bad and the PE-2 just mediocre. The only result to expect from this is more dead German bombers. That won't help anything.

 

As for the PE-2 gunners being special, I'll apply a little logic for you to try to help you get over this. Which is more likely: The gunners and the gun positions have been specially programmed to be more effective. Or the defensive guns being 12 mm guns make them more effective at killing fighters? You seem to think you have all the experience and the only valid point of view, so clear that up for me.

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Snip: “Every blue flyer is making this stuff up”

 

 

Fine, I will indulge you this one time by going through what has already been found, but after this I won’t help you with trying to reinvent the wheel. PE2 blister turret = great field of fire, along with other guns onboard. It is packed with hard hitting 12mm. Great, that’s realistic, let’s fight.... but, hold on. Gunner AI set too high can do snap shots even at high speed attackers, at their edge of fields of fire, and during high g maneuvers. They can also track planes in clouds or in low vis situations. Others can speak on the exact specifics of AI logic way better than I can, but if you just take what I mentioned alone, it’s clear there will be problems with PE2 gunners in particular. So, dumb down all gunners so there is less accuracy during those crazy situations. Yes, PE2’s will still get the majority of defending kills relative to most bombers. But, situations where an attacker is coming in at 30-60 degrees, going 700kph, and making a slash attack, only to have engine/pilot killed insta-killed, should be reduced.... hopefully for both sides!

 

Crazy AI behavior seems like less of an issue for German bomber gunners because they mostly have weaker armaments, lower fields of fire, and can’t pull as much G. This all equals less red pilots saying “what the **** was that?!”. Clear as mud for you now?

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Fact1:  The code used for AI gunners is identical for both sides.

Fact2:  The PE2 design has better placed and more powerful guns so will kill more attackers.

 

If you turn down the effectiveness of the PE2 guns a little to allow pilots who make very careful high speed passes to mostly survive then most people will still make stupid attacks and die and the complaints will continue.

If you turn down the effectiveness of the PE2 guns a lot to allow pilots to get away with stupid attacks then the effectiveness of the LW bomber gunners will also reduce a lot and people will complain that the LW bombers wont defend themselves and there is no point flying them.

 

What people are really asking here is for the PE2s gunners to be weakened but the LW gunners to stay the same and I cannot agree with that.

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Last TAW campaign, hunting Peshkas wasn't much of a problem. Just bring gunpods on the Me109, or the standard 4x 20mm on the FW, and attack from the flank and above. Never just straight from above, made that mistake too many times...

 

Flying the Zerstörer with 37mm, 2x 20mm, 2x 7.92mm is also quite immersive and a lot of fun. You can hunt the late Peshkas with their turret like that.

 

My point is, the armament is there to deal with Peshkas. :)

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Fact1: The code used for AI gunners is identical for both sides.

Fact2: The PE2 design has better placed and more powerful guns so will kill more attackers.

 

If you turn down the effectiveness of the PE2 guns a little to allow pilots who make very careful high speed passes to mostly survive then most people will still make stupid attacks and die and the complaints will continue.

If you turn down the effectiveness of the PE2 guns a lot to allow pilots to get away with stupid attacks then the effectiveness of the LW bomber gunners will also reduce a lot and people will complain that the LW bombers wont defend themselves and there is no point flying them.

 

What people are really asking here is for the PE2s gunners to be weakened but the LW gunners to stay the same and I cannot agree with that.

Fact 3: gunners with heavy machine guns and low rate of fire should not get same hit rate as the gunners lighter guns and high rate of fire. No matter what plane or nationality. Especially when firing from bomber making evasive maneuvers.

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Fact 3: gunners with heavy machine guns and low rate of fire should not get same hit rate as the gunners lighter guns and high rate of fire. No matter what plane or nationality. Especially when firing from bomber making evasive maneuvers.

 

Not to argue' but I would check comparative rate of fire with Russian UBT and UBK 12.7 mm compared to German defensive armament, it is surprisingly close, also ballistics of UB are V good

 

also don't forget that 12.7mm and ShKAS on the nose of Pe-2 when pulling up in front area

 

This is not about Pe-2 simply historic gun performance

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

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Not to argue' but I would check comparative rate of fire with Russian UBT and UBK 12.7 mm compared to German defensive armament, it is surprisingly close, also ballistics of UB are V good

 

also don't forget that 12.7mm and ShKAS on the nose of Pe-2 when pulling up in front area

 

This is not about Pe-2 simply historic gun performance

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 I know what their rate of fire are. And I`m talking about rear gunners, not front pointing weapons. I still think that it`s just impossible to shoot with hmg like rear gunners do in this sim. Least what can be done is to restrict the all gunner skill levels to normal or was it average, I don`t remember which it was. Anything above is very unrealistic imo.

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Last TAW campaign, hunting Peshkas wasn't much of a problem. Just bring gunpods on the Me109, or the standard 4x 20mm on the FW, and attack from the flank and above. Never just straight from above, made that mistake too many times...

 

Flying the Zerstörer with 37mm, 2x 20mm, 2x 7.92mm is also quite immersive and a lot of fun. You can hunt the late Peshkas with their turret like that.

 

My point is, the armament is there to deal with Peshkas. :)

If you take the 37mm pod, the 20mm are removed FYI.

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I was also talking about rear Gunners, UBT and UBK are , UBS is wing/cowling guns. The rate of fire is very similar to German rear gunners belt fed UBT is often faster

 

Turret HMG in Pe-2 is 'wind power' assisted

 

Fact 3: gunners with heavy machine guns and low rate of fire should not get same hit rate as the gunners lighter guns and high rate of fire. No matter what plane or nationality. Especially when firing from bomber making evasive maneuvers.

 

specifically talking about rate of fire in your Fact 3: currently I don't think there is really an issue here

 

no worries

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

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 I know what their rate of fire are. And I`m talking about rear gunners, not front pointing weapons. I still think that it`s just impossible to shoot with hmg like rear gunners do in this sim. Least what can be done is to restrict the all gunner skill levels to normal or was it average, I don`t remember which it was. Anything above is very unrealistic imo.

 

I disagree, forget realism for a moment and put yourself into the shoes of a ground pounder that goes up against the deadliest level of AA on virtually every sortie he sets out on. What you are proposing is that if the AA doesn't take them down, then these most likely already damaged birds are easy prey to the vultures defending the objectives.

 

What you are proposing would take pretty much any incentive away for either side to play the objectives.

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I was also talking about rear Gunners, UBT and UBK are , UBS is wing/cowling guns. The rate of fire is very similar to German rear gunners belt fed UBT is often faster

 

Turret HMG in Pe-2 is 'wind power' assisted

 

 

specifically talking about rate of fire in your Fact 3: currently I don't think there is really an issue here

 

no worries

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

Ub 800-1050, mg15 1000-1050, mg81 1400-1600.  I see a little difference?

 

In my military service, I was trained for the russian NSV hmg. It`s rate of fire is iirc 800 or so. I was standing on the ground with the gun, I think Pe-2 gunners are quite superhuman shooting from jinking and janking plane with the level of accuracy they are doing now  :biggrin:

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 I think Pe-2 gunners are quite superhuman shooting from jinking and janking plane with the level of accuracy they are doing now  :biggrin:

 

I would agree that *all* gunners should struggle to hit anything, or even fire, under heavy Gs but why make this a PE-2 issue?   Why should a JU87 be able to take out my engine while spinning down with one wing missing?

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I would agree that *all* gunners should struggle to hit anything, or even fire, under heavy Gs but why make this a PE-2 issue?   Why should a JU87 be able to take out my engine while spinning down with one wing missing?

Because it`s most obvious with the hmg in the Pe-2s tail. I think the Pe-2 is benefiting mostly for the current situation. I`ve shot down plenty of Stukas offline, can`t remember when my engine died from it. And I still think that gunners with hmgs should get hits a bit less than guys with lmgs.

 

But as I said, it would be best to put all gunners to the normal level, at the most.

I disagree, forget realism for a moment and put yourself into the shoes of a ground pounder that goes up against the deadliest level of AA on virtually every sortie he sets out on. What you are proposing is that if the AA doesn't take them down, then these most likely already damaged birds are easy prey to the vultures defending the objectives.

 

What you are proposing would take pretty much any incentive away for either side to play the objectives.

First of all, AA should not be on deadliest level. And bombers should be escorted  ;)

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The AI gunners on player-flown airplanes are always equivalent to the AI "normal" setting, right? Or is that something that can be customized by the server/mission designer?

 

I ask because offline I can destroy "Normal" AI Peshkas (who have eyes in the back of their heads) in a 109 without much risk of getting hit. Just have to attack with an energy advantage so that I'm not tailgating him for an extended period.

 

What am I missing here? Is it different online? I'm usually flying the bombers there...

 

Its no different here.

 

The people who mostly cry about gunners are the ones who sit on bomber tail or come very close within bomber tail  and are amazed that they've been hit...

 

As KRA showed the stats from wol:

 

NAME SORTIES AK PERC

he111 h16 179 44 0,245810055865922

pe2 35 series 910 138 0,151648351648352

he111 h6 1738 89 0,0512082853855006

ju88 2494 381 0,152766639935846

bf 110 e2 3073 303 0,0986007159127888

pe2 87 series 5583 1062 0,190220311660398

 

​The best kill percentage goes to HE111 H16 with top def 13mm gun...

The PE2 ser35 with top 7.62mm shkas has slightly worst % than Ju88....

 

​So anyway in my opinion there's nothing wrong with the gunners, only the people need to change their tactics.

 

​Another thing with pe2 about nobody cries on red side is: - there's no prop feathering and when one engine is out it can barely keep the level flight with max speed below 250 kph and one must continously push the rudder - usually for most players You need just to shut one of its engines and puncture its tank ... 

ME110 on the other hand which takes same amount of bombs (2 x 500kg) when looses one engine can still fly with one at least 300kph, climb and the ball can be brought to the center with rudder trim alone

Edited by Carl_infar

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Ub 800-1050, mg15 1000-1050, mg81 1400-1600.  I see a little difference?

 

In my military service, I was trained for the russian NSV hmg. It`s rate of fire is iirc 800 or so. I was standing on the ground with the gun, I think Pe-2 gunners are quite superhuman shooting from jinking and janking plane with the level of accuracy they are doing now  :biggrin:

 

 

Ever use a ring mounted MG/HMG?  It's as easy as you could hope for.

 

 

Anyway, fighters will always lobby for removal of what they think are their greatest obstacles to shooting down ground attackers.  In this regard they are not much different from most people, except they are by FAR over-represented online and so are the noisiest interest group around.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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Historically the pe-2 was quite effective at defending itself and had an average survivable rate of 30 combat flights according to Russian estimates. "The records of the 16th and 39th BAPs of the Western Front Air Force note that the Pe-2s crews had the greatest success in repelling the attacks of enemy fighters in June and July 1941. On 1 July, for example, six Pe-2s fended off attacks by four Messerschmitt Bf 109s, shooting down two of them. A week later a group of Pe-2s was attacked by four Bf 109 and again brought down two of the attackers. On both occasions the Petlyakovs suffered no losses."

i am by no means a great pilot in taw but in my limited experience flying both sides the pe-2 loses its edge as the blues get access to better and more guns. While the e-7 really will struggle good team play, and well planed out attack paths can help alleviate the effectiveness of the pe-2.   

       

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Right.. seems kind of pointless to say anything else. Who thinks the gunners are ok, continue to do so.  I disagree politely  :)

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I think the overall issue with gunner is some shot they hit when they totally shoud not. When you make a good and fast approach and your engine gets sniped its very frustrating and shouldn't happen so often. But of course players who sit on a bomber 6 should be punished. They should implement a system on which the longer the gunner is able to shoot at you, the better his accuracy gets, and get rid of those snap shots that get your pilot killed on a 700kph approach from a high 4 o clock.

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​So anyway in my opinion there's nothing wrong with the gunners
 
You are pretty alone with that opinion
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You are pretty alone with that opinion

 

Do you mean something wrong with PE-2 gunners or gunners in general?  I am sure in once of your recent videos when you flew VVS you kept getting shot down attacking JU88s etc. and you commented that they were as bad as PE-2s.

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