Ju88 VR cockpit boundary box ridiculously restrictive

[Daisy_Blossom]

First off- love the new 88C- devs did a fantastic job with this bird. However, in multiplayer servers that restrict head movement and while using a VR headset it's nearly impossible to translate your head an inch before you bump the boundary and the whole plane shifts which is super nauseating. There's this enormous cockpit in the 88C especially with the removal of that awkward machine gun from the A4 model but I'm more restricted in how much I can move my head than in even the smallest fighters!

 

Could we please get a reevaluation of the boundaries? It makes this beautiful aircraft almost unplayable online with VR, which is such a shame as it's really a fun beast to fly.

 

[Mtnbiker1998]

Agreed 100%. Its really rough, Can't even look behind you to check six. Very very inconsistent compared to head limits in other planes. almost made me turn off VR limits which is a shame as even with its flaws I think its a really great, immersive feature.

 

Between this and the stars, it makes me wonder how much testing this update got in VR. 

[Blitzen]

How does it compare with thegame’sJu-88C? Have you tried turning the boundary off and seeing the difference?

[firdimigdi]

All large planes have way too restrictive limits, all ju88 and he111 variants suffer from this; it's more limited than you get with trackir by a good margin and it makes even checking some instruments hard.

[FTC_Bird*dog]

I had the same experience in the C6. Am hoping it is just one of those little bugs from an early release that will get corrected in the next hotfix. Could only take it on one sortie as it made me nauseous. Can’t even turn your head to check side panels. Other than that it was a blast to fly but will have to enjoy the plane only in single player for now.

[Sketch]

100% agreed. The VR limits on the new 88c6 are too restrictive.

[CAFulcrum]

8 hours ago, Mtnbiker1998 said:

Agreed 100%. Its really rough, Can't even look behind you to check six.

 

To be fair that's that's the guy sitting next to you's job...

[firdimigdi]

1 hour ago, CAFulcrum said:

To be fair that's that's the guy sitting next to you's job...

 

Not in this game it ain't.

[Jade_Monkey]

Are you aware that the pilot's head is wrapped with a metal plate?

That's why you cannot move around as much as other planes, including Ju88 A4 which doesnt have this plate.

 

[Daisy_Blossom]

41 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Are you aware that the pilot's head is wrapped with a metal plate?

That's why you cannot move around as much as other planes, including Ju88 A4 which doesnt have this plate.

 

I am aware. I should still be able to lean forward and then side to side. In real life your head wasn't strapped to that headrest. I'm not trying to spin my head around like an owl; I just wanna check my instruments and maybe look over my right shoulder without having the whole plane translate. Feels like a pretty reasonable ask.

[firdimigdi]

7 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Are you aware that the pilot's head is wrapped with a metal plate?

That's why you cannot move around as much as other planes, including Ju88 A4 which doesnt have this plate.

 

 

All of the above that have been described are less restricted when using TrackIR. And in any case the armour would not prevent you from leaning towards the window on the left or from leaning forward, or ducking lower, etc The same limits in VR apply in the He111 as well that doesn't have such an armour addition. In all large planes you can't even bring your chin to your chest without hitting the limits.

[Strewth]

I personally did not have a problem with this aircraft.
The head movement had some small restrictions, but nothing that was a problem as such. In all fairness, it is not a turn fighter and yet I can comfortably look to my left and right as much as I would expect to for an aircraft like this. Each to their own, but I use a Reverb-G2 and actually enjoy this aircraft.

[Jade_Monkey]

You are not going to match trackIR in VR, sorry to disappoint.

 

The VR head is modeled with an actual head size, including a helmet. So it might not be perfect but it's pretty close to what it should be if you consider that and the armoured plate of the C6

[BlitzPig_EL]

I use TrackIR and the Ju88C6 has a more restrictive rear view than any other plane, not a complaint, an observation.  That armored seat's ability to restrict head movement is totally plausible.

[Irishratticus72]

26 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I use TrackIR and the Ju88C6 has a more restrictive rear view than any other plane, not a complaint, an observation.  That armored seat's ability to restrict head movement is totally plausible.

Can't even see any part of my rear gunner on TrackIR, hope he's not dead, (again). 

[firdimigdi]

6 hours ago, Strewth said:

I personally did not have a problem with this aircraft.
The head movement had some small restrictions, but nothing that was a problem as such. In all fairness, it is not a turn fighter and yet I can comfortably look to my left and right as much as I would expect to for an aircraft like this. Each to their own, but I use a Reverb-G2 and actually enjoy this aircraft.

 

Keeping my body completely rigid and simply yawing my head left right it reaches the lateral displacement boundaries at about 45 degrees rotation, if I look 90 degrees to my left or right the cockpit is slightly pushed backwards as the lateral displacement boundaries are exceeded. This happens because the HMD is offsetted forwards as it sits on your face and the center of rotation is your neck, so yawing left-right naturally adds a bit of translation to the camera's movement. I don't expect to fully swivel 180 and look behind me, but this is a bit much. All I'd like would be a wee bit more of leeway so the "pushback" effect doesn't occur so soon, this doesn't even happen in the FW190 which has a much smaller cockpit.

 

EDIT:

Reading @Jaegermeister's overview below it becomes clear that the boundaries of the camera are set as a box that is as wide as the headrest, which causes the above even if you have bent forwards away from the headrest. If instead it was a trapezoidal prism with the narrow face behind you and opening forwards towards its wider face it would likely be more natural a limitation simulating the headrest as well.

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Firdimigdi
update due to following post

[Jaegermeister]

On 3/19/2022 at 12:22 AM, Daisy_Blossom said:

... in multiplayer servers that restrict head movement and while using a VR headset it's nearly impossible to translate your head an inch before you bump the boundary and the whole plane shifts which is super nauseating... 

 

Could we please get a reevaluation of the boundaries? It makes this beautiful aircraft almost unplayable online with VR,

 

 

I checked out the cockpit restrictions with an Oculus Rift S and restricted head movement. I found the following limits;

 

1) Turning to the left my head hits the left head armor and prevents further movement. Any further movement and my head clips through the armor without restriction.

 

 

2) Turning to the right, same thing except you can't see the armor because of my single screen eye alignment

 

 

3) Moving forward and down, I almost hit the control column

 

 

4)Moving forward to the gunsight, my face would hit it at this point. Any further and I will be inside the cushion

 

 

5) Moving up, there is a little room, but I think the seat straps are holding me down

 

 

I don't see a problem based on the cockpit dimensions.

[Jaegermeister]

42 minutes ago, Firdimigdi said:

 

EDIT:

Reading @Jaegermeister's overview below it becomes clear that the boundaries of the camera are set as a box that is as wide as the headrest, which causes the above even if you have bent forwards away from the headrest. If instead it was a trapezoidal prism with the narrow face behind you and opening forwards towards its wider face it would likely be more natural a limitation simulating the headrest as well.

 

 

OK, fair enough... I tried that out too and you are correct. I cannot lean forward out of the seat and look around the seat to see behind it. The movement is limited to a cuboid or rectangle prism space in front of the pilot just as you explained.

 

However, if I was actually wearing the seat restraints that appear to be present in that particular aircraft, I don't think I would be able to lean forward like that anyway. 

 

 

 

This screenshot is in VR with head restraint on

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Jaegermeister

[firdimigdi]

I'm fairly certain pilots had restraints loose enough to be able to reach controls, be able to look to the sides and lean to the gunsight. It's only practical.

 

But, again, I don't have expectations of looking behind like in a single seat fighter. I just would like to be able to look left right at ~90 degrees without hitting the boundaries and being "pushed back".

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Firdimigdi

[Jaegermeister]

When statements like "ridiculously restrictive" and "unplayable" are tossed around, I feel compelled to see if that's an exaggeration or not by actually testing it out. I was able to look left and right at a 90 degree angle with no problem, even though my view was obstructed by the seat armor.

 

It may be slightly off, but then again you could say the same thing for the Malcolm Hood on the P-51B, and that discussion went away after an adjustment and a couple of days. The VR restrictions are not perfect, but we can turn them off in single player, and in Multiplayer everyone has the same issue to deal with.

 

After an unbiased look, I believe that a reevaluation of the VR head movement boundaries by the testing team would not result in any changes, but once again, I could be wrong. Maybe more lateral movement could be allowed when leaning forward, I would agree with that.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Jaegermeister

[ITAF_Airone1989]

The main problem to me is the sickness that come from this.
I can deal with the difficulties to look the cockpit, but after few minutes is a real (stomach) pain to fly this plane

Edited March 20, 2022 by ITAF_Airone1989

[firdimigdi]

26 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

I was able to look left and right at a 90 degree angle with no problem, even though my view was obstructed by the seat armor.

 

Once more: I am not unable to look left right. I can but as soon as I've yawed my head about 45 degrees the lateral view limitations kick in since the camera is translated laterally towards the direction I am looking due to the positional offset of the HMD vs the center of rotation (my neck). I have to re-test but I think this also happens in the A4 variant as well - it definetely does not happen with any of the fighter cockpits

 

As @ITAF_Airone1989 notes above this is uncomfortable as the view shifts unnaturally all the time while looking around at totally normal angles.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Firdimigdi

[F19_Haddock]

I find the VR camera restriction terrible in most planes to be honest. I understand the intention of balancing multiplayer, but it feels horribly biased against VR players who are already suffering from much lower resolutions.

 

I turned it off straight away, and only play single player...   

[Jaegermeister]

It's nice that we can have an adult discussion about it without hyperbole. Maybe the Devs will reconsider the VR head restrictions and reduce the "bubble" effect around the player's head. I would be all for that, @Jason_Williams

 

I agree that it might need to be reevaluated, but exaggerating the extent of the situation will only result in dismissal of the real issue.

 

It is not unplayable or ridiculous, but it is inconvenient and perhaps a little bit too restrictive. In my uneducated opinion never having sat in a real Ju88, that's all I can honestly say.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Jaegermeister

[Strewth]

5 hours ago, Firdimigdi said:

 

Keeping my body completely rigid and simply yawing my head left right it reaches the lateral displacement boundaries at about 45 degrees rotation, if I look 90 degrees to my left or right the cockpit is slightly pushed backwards as the lateral displacement boundaries are exceeded. This happens because the HMD is offsetted forwards as it sits on your face and the center of rotation is your neck, so yawing left-right naturally adds a bit of translation to the camera's movement. I don't expect to fully swivel 180 and look behind me, but this is a bit much. All I'd like would be a wee bit more of leeway so the "pushback" effect doesn't occur so soon, this doesn't even happen in the FW190 which has a much smaller cockpit.

 

EDIT:

Reading @Jaegermeister's overview below it becomes clear that the boundaries of the camera are set as a box that is as wide as the headrest, which causes the above even if you have bent forwards away from the headrest. If instead it was a trapezoidal prism with the narrow face behind you and opening forwards towards its wider face it would likely be more natural a limitation simulating the headrest as well.

 

You are correct with the VR headset thing and it has been of minor nuisance to me at times. But this is a VR tracking issue more so than a game coding issue.
Because the VR headset essentially makes it as though you have a head like ET, if the coding does not try to pull that movement back into place, you end up looking through objects and canopies.

It is really something that I have always hoped that the VR manufacturers would look at and rectify, as that is the direct contributor to the problem.

Cheers.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Strewth

[Jade_Monkey]

1 hour ago, Jaegermeister said:

I agree that it might need to be reevaluated, but exaggerating the extent of the situation will only result in dismissal of the real issue.

 

You mean gems like this?

 

2 hours ago, F19_Haddock said:

I understand the intention of balancing multiplayer, but it feels horribly biased against VR players who are already suffering from much lower resolutions. 

 

 

They are trying to make a good implementation of what the experience would be like in VR, not some balanced competitive tier like war thunder.

[Jaegermeister]

4 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

You mean gems like this?

 

Well no Jade, I actually mean like this...

 

5 hours ago, Strewth said:

Because the VR headset essentially makes it as though you have a head like ET...

 

What does that even mean?

 

I wasn't going to say any more about it, but for some reason I will...

 

Nothing personal but if you guys want anything done about this issue, I highly recommend you present facts and data in a logical and reasonable fashion. If you want to keep making silly exaggerated generalizations without anything to back it up, you will get nothing for your efforts.

 

Maybe you should start researching the dimensions of the seat in the Ju88 C6 and report back when you have more information on what it might be like to sit in it. I think there was one on Ebay believe it or not. Has anyone even posted a picture of what type of seat restraints were used or what type of helmet they wore? No, but I bet some of the guys that set those VR head movement limits can post those.  

 

I like this plane. I have no problem sitting in the cockpit and flying it, and it's very similar to the P-38 I have spent so much time in. If you have relevant facts, please post them. If you just feel like it's inconvenient for no real reason, it will probably stay as it is. 

 

What are the specific details of what needs to be addressed? Be clear on what you want to see. Maybe someone that can help you will read it, but if you just say "it's not right because I don't like it" no one will help you. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Jaegermeister

[[CPT]Crunch]

I don't care what any dimensions are, it's annoying when sitting still in my gaming chair the whole cockpit moves when looking left or right, and its happening worse than sitting in a Macchi, especially when compared to a JU 88 pit, and it's so damn huge.  One of the major reasons why I refuse to fly the Ju-52, that one is an horrid aberration for room on the left side only in VR.   I have horrible memories of that awful banging sound every time i even thought about moving my head slightly left.  God help us if the C-47 follows suite.  

[firdimigdi]

10 hours ago, Strewth said:

You are correct with the VR headset thing and it has been of minor nuisance to me at times. But this is a VR tracking issue more so than a game coding issue.
Because the VR headset essentially makes it as though you have a head like ET, if the coding does not try to pull that movement back into place, you end up looking through objects and canopies.

It is really something that I have always hoped that the VR manufacturers would look at and rectify, as that is the direct contributor to the problem.

Cheers.

 

IMO ιt's not an issue that needs solving: the cameras of the game are positioned where your eyes are and the center of rotation is necessarily your neck. The in-game cameras just as your eyes describe an arc in space when yawing left-right. If the rotation happened with a negative offset applied to the center of rotation it would feel extremely weird (which is what sort of happens in the current example of the cockpit limits to some extent). At least to my experience with the G2 and the Rift S, if they are centered in their software and steamvr then they match exactly what I see IRL, the G2 especially with the WMR software layer can often not be aligned properly (that's sorted out with the reset boundaries option in the portal).

 

12 hours ago, F19_Haddock said:

I find the VR camera restriction terrible in most planes to be honest. I understand the intention of balancing multiplayer, but it feels horribly biased against VR players who are already suffering from much lower resolutions.

 

I turned it off straight away, and only play single player...   

 

IMHO, usually it's OK, there's only 2 or 3 fighters I've encountered that seemed to have nonsensical limits when trying to look inside the cockpit which I'll have to re-check at some point and make a report about I suppose. But it's mostly motions like ducking or bending down towards a gauge that seem needlessly constrained in those cases, not visibility related ones.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Firdimigdi

[Strewth]

4 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

What does that even mean?

 

I wasn't going to say any more about it, but for some reason I will...

 

Nothing personal but if you guys want anything done about this issue, I highly recommend you present facts and data in a logical and reasonable fashion. If you want to keep making silly exaggerated generalizations without anything to back it up, you will get nothing for your efforts.

 

Maybe you should start researching the dimensions of the seat in the Ju88 C6 and report back when you have more information on what it might be like to sit in it. I think there was one on Ebay believe it or not. Has anyone even posted a picture of what type of seat restraints were used or what type of helmet they wore? No, but I bet some of the guys that set those VR head movement limits can post those.  

 

I like this plane. I have no problem sitting in the cockpit and flying it, and it's very similar to the P-38 I have spent so much time in. If you have relevant facts, please post them. If you just feel like it's inconvenient for no real reason, it will probably stay as it is. 

 

What are the specific details of what needs to be addressed? Be clear on what you want to see. Maybe someone that can help you will read it, but if you just say "it's not right because I don't like it" no one will help you. 

 

 

 

 

Well Jaegermeister.

I am unsure of why the hostile response. 
If you had read all of my replies, you may have noticed that I said that I personally do not have a problem with the C6 and actually enjoy it. So please take a chill pill and just read the post in its intent and not as some sort of attack.

I LIKE the C6. Easy.

My comment there was to the point that there is nothing wrong with the game or developer programming. It's great.
The point is that some VR sets are more prone to have your head rotate like you had a head like ET. I assume you know who ET is? This statement simply means that it appears to portray the image as if your eyes were further forward of your neck rotation that what they really are. This causes your perceived vision when doing on a 90deg head turn to place your VR eyes and face further out than what they would be in real life and the result is that you tend to hit the side of confined areas like cockpits. It has nothing to do with the aircraft and nothing to do with IL-2 programming whatsoever.

Therefore, I have no reason to gather a gigabyte of data and post it on this site as a development complaint. Because it IS NOT a development complaint. It was purely and explanation as to how some VR headsets respond to head movement and as I keep saying, is a totally separate issue to anything to do with IL-2.

Cheers.
 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Strewth

[Daisy_Blossom]

12 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

Well no Jade, I actually mean like this...

 

 

What does that even mean?

 

I wasn't going to say any more about it, but for some reason I will...

 

Nothing personal but if you guys want anything done about this issue, I highly recommend you present facts and data in a logical and reasonable fashion. If you want to keep making silly exaggerated generalizations without anything to back it up, you will get nothing for your efforts.

 

Maybe you should start researching the dimensions of the seat in the Ju88 C6 and report back when you have more information on what it might be like to sit in it. I think there was one on Ebay believe it or not. Has anyone even posted a picture of what type of seat restraints were used or what type of helmet they wore? No, but I bet some of the guys that set those VR head movement limits can post those.  

 

I like this plane. I have no problem sitting in the cockpit and flying it, and it's very similar to the P-38 I have spent so much time in. If you have relevant facts, please post them. If you just feel like it's inconvenient for no real reason, it will probably stay as it is. 

 

What are the specific details of what needs to be addressed? Be clear on what you want to see. Maybe someone that can help you will read it, but if you just say "it's not right because I don't like it" no one will help you. 

 

 

 

 

 

These hilarious contrarian hot-takes make me giggle. I like the plane too, bud. I am not pooping on the plane or the devs or anyone who happens to have the opinion that it feels just fine in VR with "allow spectators" unchecked.

 

Would it be more helpful if I could provide objective data such as measurements for the actual cockpit versus the virtual one? Absolutely. How the heck am I supposed to do that? I cannot measure the distance my virtual head can travel before it hits the limit and starts translating the whole aircraft. Can you? How will you do that? Move your head at a constant rate and then measure the time it takes to bump things? Does one inch of movement per second of your VR headset translate 1:1 with one inch of movement per second in the sim? How will you ensure you're moving your head at a constant rate? 

 

If there exists a remotely scientific method by which I can possibly prove my point please enlighten me. In the interim all I really can go on is how it "feels" when I compare my perceived amount of room to move within the virtual cockpit of a given plane to the actual amount the game lets me move before it starts translating the whole aircraft and turns things into nausea-fest.

 

I am well aware that this is nothing more than my feeling and should obviously be taken with a grain of salt. However, I have been flying in VR since early 2016 and own everything that the devs of this great sim have sold. I think it's reasonable for me to express my opinion that it *seems* like there is quite a disconnect with this particular aircraft between what space appears to be available to move my head when I look through the headset versus what the game allows.

 

I *think* that most people with a VR headset who tried themselves to jump into a handful of different planes in the sim, make sure "allow spectators" is unchecked, and compared the perceived space versus allowed space would come to a similar conclusion once they finally jumped into the ju-88. 

 

But again, these are my opinions based on my observations. To me it does *seem* "ridiculously restrictive". Perhaps others feel otherwise, and that's fine. 

[FTC_Bird*dog]

What I fail to understand is what any of this has to do with realism. IMHO, the VR headset restriction setting is really just for multiplayer gameplay, to disallow players from gaining some sort of competitive advantage by being able to stick their head out and Ace-Ventura their aircraft. It does not feel one bit "realistic" that if I turn my head 45 degrees to the left that I somehow "push" the aircraft to the left with my head. I'm fairly certain, though I have no scientific evidence to back this up, that an actual Ju88 pilot would lean slightly forward if he felt he needed to see around the armor plate. Though maybe not if he was being shot at. I also really like this plane (obviously anybody who is commenting on this must be an IL2 fan otherwise they would not have pre-purchased BoN) but if this is left unaddressed I will probably never fly it on competitive multiplayer servers, which makes me sad.

[Jaegermeister]

13 hours ago, Strewth said:

Well Jaegermeister.

I am unsure of why the hostile response. 
If you had read all of my replies, you may have noticed that I said that I personally do not have a problem with the C6 and actually enjoy it. So please take a chill pill and just read the post in its intent and not as some sort of attack.
 

 

I’m not hostile, like I said, nothing personal. Thanks for clarifying what a head like ET means. I get it now.

 

I also have no problem with the cockpit limitations and said so from the beginning. I am happy to entertain other opinions as long as they are reasonable, in an effort to help other people enjoy the new Ju88. They don’t have to take my advice, and I don’t feel the need to keep repeating myself. I said what I would do if I wanted to get something adjusted by the Devs and I will leave it at that.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Jaegermeister

[Luftschiff]

I do not think anyone would argue that the headroom shouldn't be more restrictive with the head-armour than without, but I also think the current limits are  unrealistic and disorienting. Keeping my body stationary and turning it 45 degrees to the right will push the entire plane away from me, which is directly uncomfortable. I also fly the plane with trackIR and the limits are nowhere as bad in there but feel entirely natural. I have no objections to those - but in VR it's very uncomfortable.

It feels like the VR limits assume the camera is 30 cm further forward than when using trackIR, and I'm also prevented from leaning around the head-armour. I second the request for adjusting these limitations a little. Especially since I can't see how it would in any way make the game worse for the people who think the current limits are fine.

[Guest deleted@134347]

I've opened a similar C6 topic in Bugs, however nobody's posting there...

 

 

[Jason_Williams]

We altered the C-6 boundaries in the Hotfix, but there is only so much we can do with it.

 

Jason 

[firdimigdi]

6 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

We altered the C-6 boundaries in the Hotfix, but there is only so much we can do with it.

 

Jason 

 

Just jumped in and had a look and this is way better - thanks!

[Daisy_Blossom]

32 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

We altered the C-6 boundaries in the Hotfix, but there is only so much we can do with it.

 

Jason 

 

And this is why I will continue to give you guys more money: constant improvements. Thanks for listening! 

[Spinnetti]

On 3/19/2022 at 4:51 AM, Firdimigdi said:

All large planes have way too restrictive limits, all ju88 and he111 variants suffer from this; it's more limited than you get with trackir by a good margin and it makes even checking some instruments hard.

I got in a real He-111, and holy crap- those were brave crew! its SUPER tight in the pilots seat, even worse with full cold gear and parachute - I don't know how they did it at all - Dunno about the Ju-88 but "restricted" is maybe correct for the He at least? - I'll have to try that again and see.

[Jaegermeister]

Real fighter cockpits are a little tighter than most people think if they haven't been in one. Unless your in a P47 that is...

 

@Firdimigdi, @Strewth, @Daisy_Blossom, congrats guys. You got it done. 

 

Strewth, If that's your '45 in you Avatar, nice one... Looks a little like my Sporty