Things that need to be added to Tank Crew to make it playable

[Alexander9822]

Tank Crew was recently released which in my personal opinion was way too early since it doesn't have so much needed features which I will list here.

 

• Manual Gear Control for the driver - Much needed immersion feature. Tanks that had automatic gear boxes get automatic transmissions while the tanks that had manual gear boxes get manual transmissions  - Also with this addition a control for a "Clutch" is needed, If your engine get taken out while your on a hill, just put the clutch in a roll down to cover.
• The ability to open a hatch and not put your head out. - by keeping the hatch open the commander can easily peek out and look for target and then go back in, now he has to wait for the hatch to open.
• A Compass for the commander - This will be super useful for hardcore servers with no player marker on the map. Will allow us to navigate much better.
• M4A2 Gun Stabilizer - This is a much needed feature for the Sherman as it is what makes the Sherman powerful. A gun that is stable at under 20KM/H will be useful and it should have it as it had it in real life so come on now...
• Independent control for cabin/instrument lights  - Sometimes the inside of the tank is dark but the outside is not so it will be nice to just light up the interior of the tank and leave the instruments alone.
• A resupply and repair vehicle - A vehicle that can drive around and repair or rearm tanks on the battlefield such as an Opel Blitz or variant of the Gaz truck would be supper useful as a collectors vehicle or the guys that just want to drive around and help people and not participate in the fighting.
• MedKits - When a crewman get injured you are stuck with a blurry vision and it will be great if you could get a medkit or heal a crew member, Like gunner is injured so you press Ctrl + H to use a medkit which your tank only has like 3 of.
• Ability to replace crew members in the field - Your gunner gets killed so you can replace him with the commander.
• Animations for the loader since he just chills in the back of the tank.
• The ability to be the loader in a multicrew tank - Rounds wont be loaded automatically. You press Ctrl + 1 to load AP, Ctrl + 2 to load He etc etc etc.. Not much for gameplay wise but would be pretty cool if you had a 5 man tiger with everyone doing there part.
• Dead Radioman means no more sending or receiving of radio messages. - Would be nice addition as it would be realistic - I am more into a more realistic radio where you can interact with it and he must tell the crew/ commander what is being said. (Should be configurable but would make hardcore realism server so much cooler
• Smoke discharges - Useful for when you want to hide from a pesky airplane that is annoying you. Tiger 1 for example had launcher on the hull and turret.
• Improved AI Driving - Press a button which opens a map and you get to click a position and your driver will automatically drive there using the road.
• Convoy Lights - For when driving at night in a group
• Head Tracking with hand signals  - No not track IR but 3D model head tracking so if I am looking to the right in my tank the 3D model crew member is also looking to the right and if I am the commander I can use hand signals like pointing to a target to show tanks in my group where the enemy is.
• The Ability for Russian Tanks to use Compressed Air Start - Would be more realistic for winter maps for the Russian tanks to use the compressed air start instead of the electric starter.
• The ability to select specifically how much ammo you want of what type. - Like I want 24 HE rounds and 36 AP or 10 HEAT with 50ACPR with the mission designer being able to limit how much of each type a single tank can use.
• The Ability to Specifically choose how open or closed a shutter must be, for example in the Tiger 1 I dont want the drivers visor shutter all the way open but I don't want it all the way closed as well. Just half open so I can fill more protected. Like Ctrl + Alt + - to close it slowly and Ctrl + Alt + + to open is slowly.
• More realistic repairs - Your crew get out the tank to repair a track for example or climb onto the engine bay and open it to repair the engine.

 

Now this is just some of the things I thought would be a nice additions to Tank Crew to make it amazing. Feel free to criticize it or give your opinions because I would like to see what everyone else would like.

[Thad]

What! No included bottle of Vodka? ?

[SCG_judgedeath3]

40 minutes ago, Alexander9822 said:

M4A2 Gun Stabilizer - This is a much needed feature for the Sherman as it is what makes the Sherman powerful. A gun that is stable at under 20KM/H will be useful and it should have it as it had it in real life so come on now...

The shermans the americans sent to the russians lacked the gun stabilizer as it was saved for us use only and not give the russians advanced tech. Also the americans rarely used it as they themself didnt even know how to use it besides a few who got training on it, it was that secret. Also you still needed to stop as the stabilizer didnt work that fantastic but it made it easier to get the first shot off in a duel.
 Its not like modern tanks who can jump and drive at full speed and hit, that came in the late 70s.

40 minutes ago, Alexander9822 said:

MedKits - When a crewman get injured you are stuck with a blurry vision and it will be great if you could get a medkit or heal a crew member, Like gunner is injured so you press Ctrl + H to use a medkit which your tank only has like 3 of.

A medcit wont magically make a crewman behave and operate like if he was uninjured again, it would make him bleed less and give the crew more time to get to safe position in the back and handle him over to the field medics. The injured man would still be dizzy and hurt and see and have bad situational awarness even with aid kits or hell morfin and modern stuff which we learned quickly in afganistan in my unit, a injured soldier was useless in the fight and best option is to fall back.

40 minutes ago, Alexander9822 said:

Ability to replace crew members in the field - Your gunner gets killed so you can replace him with the commander.

Issue is the commander isnt a trained gunner or vice versa, only in ermeginces I have read they did it but the standard procedure was to back off and fall back if the gunner, driver etc got injured and if the tank got penetrated: bail out. A tank isnt fully operational once someone in the crew is injured or killed and commander of the unit would rather have that tank back off from the fight. Its not warthunder or world of tanks, but I think a good solution would be as you said: you drive back to nearest rearm station(which is already in the game) and the tank and crew is repaired/replaced and fit for combat again.

The rest I can agree on in the list.

Edited November 28, 2020 by SCG_judgedeath3

[Alexander9822]

Hey @SCG_judgedeath3  , I see your point and I agree with you.

[Voidhunger]

Manual gear control is modeled

Resupply and repair vehicle is modeled and you can repair some things by your self

Cabin light is modeled

 

Replacing dead crew members- I real life when your tank is penetrated by the enemy shell and driver is killed you will probably bail out

                                                         if the non driver is killed or seriously wounded, you will bail out or very quickly retreated to the rear

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Voidhunger

[Alexander9822]

1 minute ago, Voidhunger said:

Manual gear control is modeled

Resupply and repair vehicle is modeled and you can repair some thing by your self

Cabin light is modeled

 

Replacing dead crew members- I real life when your tank is penetrated by the enemy shell and driver is killed you will probably bail out

                                                         if the non driver is killed or seriously wounded, you will bail out or very quickly retreated to the rear

 

1. Manual Gear Control is not modeled, you cannot control the gear manually.
2. I never said resupply and repair vehicle is not modeled, I said it should be drivable and controllable by players.
3. I never said cabin light is not modeled, It said you should be able to turn the cabin and instrument light on independently of each other

[Voidhunger]

6 minutes ago, Alexander9822 said:

1. Manual Gear Control is not modeled, you cannot control the gear manually.
2. I never said resupply and repair vehicle is not modeled, I said it should be drivable and controllable by players.
3. I never said cabin light is not modeled, It said you should be able to turn the cabin and instrument light on independently of each other

2,3 ok

1. you can change gear with z,x keys

[Alexander9822]

1 minute ago, Voidhunger said:

2,3 ok

1. you can change gear with z,x keys

That is not changing gear, that is just limiting your driver to a maximum gear. so if your going up a hill and you limit you gear to 2nd you will stay in first and sometimes move to 2nd gear but if your going off road and you limit your gears to 5 your driver for some stupid reason will stay in 2nd gear. It doesn't change gears, it just limit to what gear he can move too.

[LachenKrieg]

29 minutes ago, Alexander9822 said:

1. Manual Gear Control is not modeled, you cannot control the gear manually.
2. I never said resupply and repair vehicle is not modeled, I said it should be drivable and controllable by players.
3. I never said cabin light is not modeled, It said you should be able to turn the cabin and instrument light on independently of each other

I'm not in-game at the moment, and won't have time until later tonight, but the manual gear is modeled for sure using the "x" and "z" keys. what is not modeled is a gear position for neutral. 

 

I was thinking the exact same thing as you. It would be great to have the supply vehicles player controlled, especially when playing in large groups. Or an alternative feature could be a command that radio's for a supply/repair vehicle, and one shows up after some time. At the moment, if you get a fuel leak and run out of fuel, there is no way to get back into the fight. So I agree, this aspect kind of has an unfinished feel to it. We have damage models for different mechanical systems, we have RRR vehicles, modeled radio stations in each tank, but no way to make them work together in a dynamic scenario.

 

I have renewed hope that this is the direction they are driving things.

 

Regarding the cabin/instrument lighting, it is also modeled at least in some tank for sure. Use LeftShift + L for external lights. Use "L" for internal lights while in the drivers position. The "L" key is used to also toggle between cabin and instrument lights.

 

16 minutes ago, Alexander9822 said:

That is not changing gear, that is just limiting your driver to a maximum gear. so if your going up a hill and you limit you gear to 2nd you will stay in first and sometimes move to 2nd gear but if your going off road and you limit your gears to 5 your driver for some stupid reason will stay in 2nd gear. It doesn't change gears, it just limit to what gear he can move too.

I disagree. I use the x, and z keys to manually control the gear my tank is in. If I want to stay in 1st gear, I can do that. If I want to go to second gear from there and stay there, I can do that. If I want to go to third gear from there and stay, I can also do that. From third gear, I can also decide that I want to go back to second gear, and this can be done. Other then having to push a clutch pedal in, which by the way is not even needed to change gears in a real car/truck... this is really about as manual as it can get.

 

 

I should add that what you are seeing is that in certain situation, your tank might not have enough torque to get into a higher gear. So in the case you described above, the reason the tank doesn't get out of second gear while you have 5th gear selected is because your engine cannot generate enough torque to do it. That is why it stays in second gear. It is not stuck, it just can't build up enough speed/torque to do it. Next time you see this, try to make it to a road, or a terrain type that will allow you to build more speed and see what happens. I can guarantee you the tank will go to 5th gear once it is moving fast enough. What would happen in a real car/truck/tank is you would likely stall the engine if you put it in too high a gear for the amount of ground resistance being encountered.

Edited November 28, 2020 by LachenKrieg

[Lofte]

My personal list:

1) Infantry with AT-weapons

2) To get right balance in the fight "AT-gun vs Tank". Now tanks destroy AT-guns too easily. AT-guns can't disguise and dig in ground

3) Triggers you can pull at you will anytime (by swithing some switchbox, type some command or something like this). This feature need to call artellery, aviation, lunch attacks, deploy defense, command units and so on.

4) System that allows you to transfer parametres from oine mission to another in a custom campaign (for example - score (let to decide - "award" player or not in the end of campaign), number of lost units (to start next mission with exact number of alive tanks) and so one).

5) More destroyadble objects + winter skins for them

6) More objects to depict frontline (currens objects don't let to do a realistic frontline)

7) Ability to work with combat map (to paint combat situation and give orders to AI or alive teammates)

8)) Ability to flatten guns with no serios damage to tank.

 

These are key points (imo of course).

 

2 hours ago, Alexander9822 said:

More realistic repairs - Your crew get out the tank to repair a track for example or climb onto the engine bay and open it to repair the engine.

the only point I can agree, all other are imo completely minor ones

Edited November 28, 2020 by Lofte

[Alexander9822]

48 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

I disagree. I use the x, and z keys to manually control the gear my tank is in. If I want to stay in 1st gear, I can do that. If I want to go to second gear from there and stay there, I can do that. If I want to go to third gear from there and stay, I can also do that. From third gear, I can also decide that I want to go back to second gear, and this can be done. Other then having to push a clutch pedal in, which by the way is not even needed to change gears in a real car/truck... this is really about as manual as it can get.

but that is not manual gears, Manual gears that I talk about is you have a separate clutch key so even if you dont have enough torque you can still shift into 5th gears, obviously you will stall the engine but it is manual gears.

22 minutes ago, Lofte said:

My personal list:

1) Infantry with AT-weapons

2) To get right balance in the fight "AT-gun vs Tank". Now tanks destroy AT-guns too easily. AT-guns can't disguise and dig in ground

3) Triggers you can pull at you will anytime (by swithing some switchbox, type some command or something like this). This feature need to call artellery, aviation, lunch attacks, deploy defense, command units and so on.

4) System that allows you to transfer parametres from oine mission to another in a custom campaign (for example - score (let to decide - "award" player or not in the end of campaign), number of lost units (to start next mission with exact number of alive tanks) and so one).

5) More destroyadble objects + winter skins for them

6) More objects to depict frontline (currens objects don't let to do a realistic frontline)

7) Ability to work with combat map (to paint combat situation and give orders to AI or alive teammates)

8)) Ability to flatten guns with no serios damage to tank.

 

These are key points (imo of course).

 

the only point I can agree, all other are imo completely minor ones

I can agree with all of your suggestions.

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, Alexander9822 said:

but that is not manual gears, Manual gears that I talk about is you have a separate clutch key so even if you dont have enough torque you can still shift into 5th gears, obviously you will stall the engine but it is manual gears.

 

If there is one thing that is modeled really close in Tank Crew, and there are a number of things, it is the power train/suspension physics model, and sound/graphics effects that go along with it. After comparing it with a lot of real video footage of WWII tanks driving, especially the more modern footage of Tiger 131 and the likes, I cant find a better model anywhere. 

 

But I am wondering if you aren't confusing how a manual transmission works with how to best model it in software. First of all, having the software automatically shift gears is necessity to accommodate game play where you are alone and driving from the commanders position. But regardless of what position you are in, you can very closely simulate a working manual transmission by using the "x" and "z" keys. The fact that you can't put the tank into a gear you wouldn't be able to use in real life takes nothing away from the realism of the SIM IMO. But if we compare this to the commander's periscope in the Sherman for example, here we have an example of where the model is missing something in terms of how you would actually use it in real life. The gun lock mechanism is another example of not representing the way it would be used in real life. But the physics model related to driving in Tank Crew is extremely well done. 

[No_Face]

Sorry for my english, I use google translate.

 

-I agree with @Alexander9822, manual gear shifting is not really present in the game.

Maintain the accelerator and your tank will reach its maximum speed on its own, having automatically shifted gears. This is not what I want (we want?) to see.

The tank must be in neutral by default and then it is up to us to engage 1st gear. Once the optimal RPMs have been reached, we have to shift into 2nd gear otherwise the tank will not be able to go much faster. Shifting into 2nd gear too soon will slow the tank down.

Of course, I am telling you this based on the behavior of a car, maybe for a tank it's different and if I say stupid things I apologize to the developers for having questioned this aspect.

 

-I would also like a player to be able to control the loader.

But if it's playable, you have to give it something to do. In my mind, I'll see him do several things: Open the breech> load the shell> close the breech.

But I will not see these actions performed using the keys (Alt+1, B, Alt+2 for example), I will rather see the player having to click on the part allowing to open the breech, then to click on the shell to take it in hand, then it should click again at the level of the tube to load the shell and finally close by clicking again at the right place.

 

To give you an idea, I invite you to watch this sequence of the game "My Summer Car" when the player switches off the ignition and gets out of the car (at 2:04):

https://youtu.be/_wFi7NQxksk?t=124

 

With a small cursor (very discreet, therefore not breaking the immersion) he clicks on the different usable elements. Here the elements display a text when they are hovered (Ignition, hand brake ...) but it would be too big for TC. Instead, a system of outlines (without writing) would perhaps be preferable as for example in the video which is at 8:34. It's pretty discreet.

https://youtu.be/dfy86ADw4xA?t=514

 

If necessary, the outline can have a color close to the element with which to interact to make it even more discreet. This contour could be deactivated (activated in normal mode for example and removed in realistic mode).

The advantage of this gameplay is that it would bring a new playable role (loader) and that the loading time of the shell would be variable depending on the speed of execution and the precision of the player. For example, a good loader can charge a second faster than an average loader.

Between two combat phases, the loader could even organize the storage of its shells in order to have them within reach. (the logic wanting that the charger will first take the shells close to it. The more shots there are in combat, the longer it will take to charge since they will be more difficult to hit, hence the importance of put them out of combat).

To take a shell it will not be necessary to be very precise (because it is an imposing object) but to open the access to the tube, it will be necessary to be more precise.

 

I suspect it will probably never be implemented, because I think developers will find this gameplay a little different from what we have in IL-2, but feel free to talk about it if you like the idea (even if you don't like it elsewhere).

 

 

6 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Regarding the cabin/instrument lighting, it is also modeled at least in some tank for sure. Use LeftShift + L for external lights. Use "L" for internal lights while in the drivers position. The "L" key is used to also toggle between cabin and instrument lights.

Unless I am mistaken, you cannot turn on the interior lights of the tank (or of an aircraft) without turning on the instrument lights.

You have the choice between:

Lights off

Instruments on

Instruments on + interior lights on

 

but you cannot have:

Interior light on (only)

Edited November 29, 2020 by No_Face
Correction / layout

[LachenKrieg]

2 hours ago, No_Face said:

Sorry for my english, I use google translate.

 

-I agree with @Alexander9822, manual gear shifting is not really present in the game...

 

...Unless I am mistaken, you cannot turn on the interior lights of the tank (or of an aircraft) without turning on the instrument lights.

You have the choice between:

Lights off

Instruments on

Instruments on + interior lights on

 

but you cannot have:

Interior light on (only)

Your English is perfectly fine.

 

I put a small video together just to demonstrate how I use the "x" and "z" keys to manually shift the Tiger tank as the example.

 

When you first start up the engine, the transmission is in 1st gear, and the max allowable gear as shown on the info panel in the Driver's position shows that it is set to the top gear "8". So if you don't do anything, the tank will start in 1st gear and shift by itself all the way up to 8th gear and back down again as needed, whether you are in the drivers position or not.

 

But if you really want to simulate manually shifting the tank as you drive around, use the "z" key to first set the maximum allowable gear to 1. As you shift your gears up and down, part of your job as the driver is to also watch your RPM gauge. You can watch the little white RPM icon on the driver's info panel, but you will get a little better sense of your engines power if you watch the larger red/white RPM gauge on the instrument panel inside the tank. I recommend that you keep your RPM between 2700 and 3000 whenever shifting to a higher gear regardless of whether you are on, or off road.

 

Remember you are driving a 60 ton tank here. Ground resistance over different terrain types is a huge deal. If you are not careful, you can damage any number of power-train components including the final drive, transmission, or the engine. The problems related to the weight of the real world tanks is well documented. In fact one of the first criticisms of the guy running the show back in the day was that he ordered the brand new Tiger tanks coming off the production line into a swamp, where they promptly sank.

 

So as the driver, you have to be constantly aware of where you are on your engines power band, because there could be a 120mm barrel launching hot projectiles your way around every corner. This means you are constantly thinking about the relationship between engine RPM, transmission gear, and vehicle speed. These three things are very important not just in terms of how long it takes you to get from "A" to "B", but how wide your turning radius is, and at what speed you will be at when you come out of the turn. All of this is of course attached to the constant concern of protecting your tank and crews position.

 

The video was made completely off road to demonstrate manual shifting on higher resistance terrain. Notice how your engines power falls as you turn, necessitating multiple downshifts depending on what gear you were in to start. Normally it is a good idea to downshift if you are in top gear just before making a turn. You should be in 4th gear or lower when in a full turn. If you need to tighten up your turn, shift into a lower gear. If you want to gain more speed using a wider radius before coming out of a turn, shift into a higher gear. If you are stopped, or in 1st gear and you need to urgently traverse your hull 180 degrees, shift into 2nd gear once your in the turn.

 

Everything including the clutch is modeled, except for neutral gear.

 

 

 

[No_Face]

Interesting. I understand better what you wanted to say above.
So the problem would come mainly from the fact that the game puts us by default in automatic mode while it should limit us to this 1st speed to force us to shift gears ourselves.

Again, this could be an option (automatic in normal mode, manual in realistic mode).

[Alexander9822]

5 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

When you first start up the engine, the transmission is in 1st gear, and the max allowable gear as shown on the info panel in the Driver's position shows that it is set to the top gear "8". So if you don't do anything, the tank will start in 1st gear and shift by itself all the way up to 8th gear and back down again as needed, whether you are in the drivers position or not.

 

But if you really want to simulate manually shifting the tank as you drive around, use the "z" key to first set the maximum allowable gear to 1. As you shift your gears up and down, part of your job as the driver is to also watch your RPM gauge. You can watch the little white RPM icon on the driver's info panel, but you will get a little better sense of your engines power if you watch the larger red/white RPM gauge on the instrument panel inside the tank. I recommend that you keep your RPM between 2700 and 3000 whenever shifting to a higher gear regardless of whether you are on, or off road.

 

Remember you are driving a 60 ton tank here. Ground resistance over different terrain types is a huge deal. If you are not careful, you can damage any number of power-train components including the final drive, transmission, or the engine. The problems related to the weight of the real world tanks is well documented. In fact one of the first criticisms of the guy running the show back in the day was that he ordered the brand new Tiger tanks coming off the production line into a swamp, where they promptly sank.

 

So as the driver, you have to be constantly aware of where you are on your engines power band, because there could be a 120mm barrel launching hot projectiles your way around every corner. This means you are constantly thinking about the relationship between engine RPM, transmission gear, and vehicle speed. These three things are very important not just in terms of how long it takes you to get from "A" to "B", but how wide your turning radius is, and at what speed you will be at when you come out of the turn. All of this is of course attached to the constant concern of protecting your tank and crews position.

 

The video was made completely off road to demonstrate manual shifting on higher resistance terrain. Notice how your engines power falls as you turn, necessitating multiple downshifts depending on what gear you were in to start. Normally it is a good idea to downshift if you are in top gear just before making a turn. You should be in 4th gear or lower when in a full turn. If you need to tighten up your turn, shift into a lower gear. If you want to gain more speed using a wider radius before coming out of a turn, shift into a higher gear. If you are stopped, or in 1st gear and you need to urgently traverse your hull 180 degrees, shift into 2nd gear once your in the turn.

Well I do see what you mean, All you are doing is telling the driver that he can now shift a gear higher, I think there should be an option for us real hardcore simmers to have the option to fully control the gearing with a shifter in real life.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Alexander9822

[Goosevich]

  This "maunal" gearbox modeled in TC is not a manual gearbox, it's an automatic gearbox with literal gear limiter and thats it. Manual Gearbox = clutch and selecting the gears by yourself and that can be achived in game by gamepads or for example Logitech steering wheels with a clutch and six-speed 'box.
  That's what im waiting for, especially since pseudo-manual gearboxes have been in other sim games, for example T-72 BoF (you could set up "manual gearbox" in the menu, there was no clutch axis support but at least you could choose the gear for yourself whitch added to the experience imo). The thing we have now is like calling IL-2 a sim and not having joystick support.

EDIT : Auto-'box makes sense when the AI is manning driver-mechanic position, sure. It would be also neat to "nick" the manual gearbox system from games like ETS2/ATS

EDIT 2 :

Quote

I should add that what you are seeing is that in certain situation, your tank might not have enough torque to get into a higher gear. So in the case you described above, the reason the tank doesn't get out of second gear while you have 5th gear selected is because your engine cannot generate enough torque to do it. That is why it stays in second gear. It is not stuck, it just can't build up enough speed/torque to do it. Next time you see this, try to make it to a road, or a terrain type that will allow you to build more speed and see what happens. I can guarantee you the tank will go to 5th gear once it is moving fast enough. What would happen in a real car/truck/tank is you would likely stall the engine if you put it in too high a gear for the amount of ground resistance being encountered.

 Sometimes im wondering - do you people even have a driving licence ? No offence but tank and truck engines have so much torque most of the time, that you would most probably never use a first, second or even third gear while on pavement or even loose gravel. I've done quite a bit of offroading with 400+ bhp diesel engines to know that it's possible, and some diesel torque curves and gearbox + final drive combos can allow for gaining speed just by changing the gears on the engine running with a defect throttle - it saved my stuck ass more than once.
 Meanwhile in Tank Crew, the only reason the AI does not allow for a change of the gear (most noticible at a start of every mission) is 'cos the engine/engines are cold (ie the oil temperature is below nominal). The only way to combat this is either turn off the option in difficulty settings or just let the engine run for X amount of time - thats it - it's literaly stuck but it kinda makes sense since synchro's either didn't exist in those tanks or were shoddy quality (for modern standards).

Edited November 29, 2020 by Goosevich

[No_Face]

2 hours ago, No_Face said:

Interesting. I understand better what you wanted to say above.
So the problem would come mainly from the fact that the game puts us by default in automatic mode while it should limit us to this 1st speed to force us to shift gears ourselves.

Again, this could be an option (automatic in normal mode, manual in realistic mode).

I'm not sure why I said that this morning, I must have been badly awake since I still think, as @Goosevich explained well, that this is not a manual gear shift. ?

 

The video shows that you can limit a speed, not select it.
You can't try to start in second for example.

If, once in 7th, you brake very hard, your gear ratios will automatically adapt. In reality, if you brake very hard without having your foot on the clutch pedal, you will have surprises.

Soon there will be wheeled vehicles (AA vehicles) and the management of the gearbox will be even more important (such as the use of engine braking for example).

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, Goosevich said:

  This "maunal" gearbox modeled in TC is not a manual gearbox, it's an automatic gearbox with literal gear limiter and thats it. Manual Gearbox = clutch and selecting the gears by yourself and that can be achived in game by gamepads or for example Logitech steering wheels with a clutch and six-speed 'box.
  That's what im waiting for, especially since pseudo-manual gearboxes have been in other sim games, for example T-72 BoF (you could set up "manual gearbox" in the menu, there was no clutch axis support but at least you could choose the gear for yourself whitch added to the experience imo). The thing we have now is like calling IL-2 a sim and not having joystick support.

EDIT : Auto-'box makes sense when the AI is manning driver-mechanic position, sure. It would be also neat to "nick" the manual gearbox system from games like ETS2/ATS

EDIT 2 :

 Sometimes im wondering - do you people even have a driving licence ? No offence but tank and truck engines have so much torque most of the time, that you would most probably never use a first, second or even third gear while on pavement or even loose gravel. I've done quite a bit of offroading with 400+ bhp diesel engines to know that it's possible, and some diesel torque curves and gearbox + final drive combos can allow for gaining speed just by changing the gears on the engine running with a defect throttle - it saved my stuck ass more than once.
 Meanwhile in Tank Crew, the only reason the AI does not allow for a change of the gear (most noticible at a start of every mission) is 'cos the engine/engines are cold (ie the oil temperature is below nominal). The only way to combat this is either turn off the option in difficulty settings or just let the engine run for X amount of time - thats it - it's literaly stuck but it kinda makes sense since synchro's either didn't exist in those tanks or were shoddy quality (for modern standards).

Just to begin, there were no diesel pods in Tiger tanks. Second, list the 60 ton tracked vehicles you have driven? Third, the gear box modeled in Tank Crew can be used like the actual manual transmission in the original Tiger tank, the major difference being you are hitting the "z" and "x" keys to simulate the motion of depressing a clutch and moving a stick shift. Your bold text at the top of the quote is exactly what is modeled. You can select the gears yourself by hitting the "x" and "z" keys, and watch the clutch as it goes in and out while the stick shift moves up and down.

 

It is easy to misinterpret something when you don't understand the thing being misinterpreted. And I was wondering if that wasn't the case, as someone pointed out that they thought the tank they were driving off road was stuck in a low gear. Clearly the disconnect here is that persons understanding.

 

But the purpose of this discussion was to clarify issues that people have with the SIM so that they can get more enjoyment out of it. Not argue about what you do as a day job. If you want to drive around while you are in the Commander, or Gunner's position, then it would be pretty stupid to model the tank so that it cant get out of 1st gear. It is pretty much a necessity to have it so that the gears change while your doing something else. But if you have someone else with you in the Gunner's position so that you can focus more on the actual job of driving a 60 ton tank around, then what you have modeled in Tank Crew will allow you to do just that with pretty close representation of the actual WWII tank. I think there is an actual working Tiger in a museum somewhere, go check it out and prove me wrong if your up to it.

 

But again the purpose of my contribution here Goose is to be helpful by clarifying an issue that I can give input on. With all the complaints flying around, I think we have a responsibility to at least keep it real. What is the point of complaining about something in the model when it is already modeled well. The drive train modeled in Tank Crews Tiger tank is a very good representation of the real world tank. Compare the drive modeled in Tank Crew with the way you use the Commander's periscope in the Sherman for example. One is modeled almost exactly how you would use it in real life, while the other is not. Complaining about the drive system in Tank Crew is unwarranted. Asking the Dev team to review the way the model works for the Sherman's periscope is reasonable IMO, because while it is a very good visual representation, it isn't a good representation of how you would actually use it in real life.

[2/JG26_rudidlo]

19 hours ago, Alexander9822 said:

The ability to open a hatch and not put your head out. - by keeping the hatch open the commander can easily peek out and look for target and then go back in, now he has to wait for the hatch to open.

It could lead to multiplying controls  - one for opening a hatch and second for putting driver/gunner/commander out of the tank.

19 hours ago, Alexander9822 said:

A resupply and repair vehicle - A vehicle that can drive around and repair or rearm tanks on the battlefield such as an Opel Blitz or variant of the Gaz truck would be supper useful as a collectors vehicle or the guys that just want to drive around and help people and not participate in the fighting.

Ressuply vehicle is supported in the game. Just put it in Mission editor anywhere you want.

19 hours ago, Alexander9822 said:

MedKits - When a crewman get injured you are stuck with a blurry vision and it will be great if you could get a medkit or heal a crew member, Like gunner is injured so you press Ctrl + H to use a medkit which your tank only has like 3 of.

When damaged tank repair takes from few minutes to ~30 minutes you would like to heal crew members instantly? ?‍♂️

[LachenKrieg]

3 hours ago, Alexander9822 said:

Well I do see what you mean, All you are doing is telling the driver that he can now shift a gear higher, I think there should be an option for us real hardcore simmers to have the option to fully control the gearing with a shifter in real life.

No, what I tried to do was demonstrate for you that in order for you to more closely simulate driving the actual tank, you have to use the "z" and "x" keys while keeping an eye on the engine power like you would in real life.

 

1 hour ago, No_Face said:

I'm not sure why I said that this morning, I must have been badly awake since I still think, as @Goosevich explained well, that this is not a manual gear shift. ?

 

The video shows that you can limit a speed, not select it.
You can't try to start in second for example.

If, once in 7th, you brake very hard, your gear ratios will automatically adapt. In reality, if you brake very hard without having your foot on the clutch pedal, you will have surprises.

Soon there will be wheeled vehicles (AA vehicles) and the management of the gearbox will be even more important (such as the use of engine braking for example).

If you were in 7th gear and had to break very hard, I can assure you as the driver, you would have to adjust the gear of your transmission. What we have modeled in Tank Crew as far as driving goes, is a very good computer simulated representation of the actual tanks.

[Alexander9822]

I believe that you should decide which gear you want to be in, like if you where driving a car, If I want to try and pull off in 5th gear and stall the heck out of the car I can. I believe we should have the same amount of freedom in the Tank Crew. I start in neutral, I put the clutch in, shift into 5th and stall. I want to be able to do that because it is realistic. I don't want to limit the gear to 5th and watch my driver go through all the gears, I want to have direct control over it.

48 minutes ago, 1stCL/rudidlo said:

It could lead to multiplying controls  - one for opening a hatch and second for putting driver/gunner/commander out of the tank.

Ressuply vehicle is supported in the game. Just put it in Mission editor anywhere you want.

When damaged tank repair takes from few minutes to ~30 minutes you would like to heal crew members instantly? ?‍♂️

1. The multiple controls I can agree with
2. I know there is a resupply vehicle ingame but I want to be able to play as it and drive around the map resupplying tanks
3. Let me rephrase the medkits, The vision is super blurry. At least allow it to take the blur away so I can actually see out of my tank. Doesn't have to heal the crew member but should allow it to still be useful.

[LachenKrieg]

16 minutes ago, Alexander9822 said:

I believe that you should decide which gear you want to be in, like if you where driving a car, If I want to try and pull off in 5th gear and stall the heck out of the car I can. I believe we should have the same amount of freedom in the Tank Crew. I start in neutral, I put the clutch in, shift into 5th and stall. I want to be able to do that because it is realistic. I don't want to limit the gear to 5th and watch my driver go through all the gears, I want to have direct control over it.

You are in direct control. Every gear shift made in the video was made by me. I was not watching the game do anything. I was the one driving the tank and deciding what gear I wanted to use. The current model closely represents what a real world tank from that era looked like and the way it operated.

 

If your intention is to ask the Dev team to review how they modeled the driving system, then I am not standing in your way. I was just trying to address some of your misconceptions so that you could get more enjoyment out of the tank SIM your own.

 

IMO, to be a good representation, the model has to not just simulate the motion of shifting gears, but it must also make the connecting points between weight, engine power/torque, speed, and ground resistance. Get in a Tiger tank, and using the "x" and "z" keys, drive it up one side of a hill and then down the other while watching the engine RPM gauge inside the tank. Pay special attention at what RPM you are able to make shifts going up the hill, and how that compares with the RPM needed to shift going down the hill.

 

Anyway, I hope you are able to enjoy the tank SIM, and any issues you have with it get resolved.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by LachenKrieg

[Goosevich]

@LachenKrieg Yep i've driven 40-60 ton vehicles (mostly semi's), alas they were wheeled. No it's not modeled what we have in TC is a sub-par modeled autobox with gear limiter and that's it. No it's not realistic at all if you take control as >>driver-mechanic<< in this sim (as i said - the system we have makes more or less sense while playing as a gunner/commander). The ground pressure and the torque required to move offroad is also off so no, the ingame drivetrain for all the tanks is way off and again the autobox gearing is just really stuck, mostly tied to oil temp and/or a hill (and only then makes sense). What we have just sucks, and as i said before not including clutch axis + manual gear changing is like calling IL-2 a sim and not having joystick support

[LachenKrieg]

17 minutes ago, Goosevich said:

@LachenKrieg Yep i've driven 40-60 ton vehicles (mostly semi's), alas they were wheeled. No it's not modeled what we have in TC is a sub-par modeled autobox with gear limiter and that's it. No it's not realistic at all if you take control as >>driver-mechanic<< in this sim (as i said - the system we have makes more or less sense while playing as a gunner/commander). The ground pressure and the torque required to move offroad is also off so no, the ingame drivetrain for all the tanks is way off and again the autobox gearing is just really stuck, mostly tied to oil temp and/or a hill (and only then makes sense). What we have just sucks, and as i said before not including clutch axis + manual gear changing is like calling IL-2 a sim and not having joystick support

Alas, that's an important point!

 

manual transmission

noun

an automotive transmission consisting of a system of interlocking gear wheels and a lever that enables the driver to shift gears manually.

 

Just thought I would throw this out there as a good starting point. Now if you go back to the video, what you see is I am doing what the dictionary describes as being the definition of a manual transmission. I am shifting the gears up and down. So what is it exactly that you want modeled that isn't there?

 

Saying you want to start out in 5th gear to stall the tank is making an argument for the sake of arguing. It has no value as part of a discussion regarding the accuracy of the SIM, because if you actually did that in real life, the Commander would probably have you dragged from your drivers hatch and shot on the spot.

 

Now if the Dev's want to model it so that you can select 7th gear to start out going up a hill so that the engine stalls, well yeah that would be a closer representation of real life if you would actually be that stupid to do something like that.

 

In other words, would the SIM be more realistic if the Commander could sit outside the tank on the bow machine gun while in battle?  I mean, maybe Alexander wants to do that because any real live Commander could have actually done that if he really wanted to. Is that something the Dev team should look into? Seriously?

Edited November 29, 2020 by LachenKrieg

[Alexander9822]

9 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

Now if the Dev's want to model it so that you can select 7th gear to start out going up a hill so that the engine stalls, well yeah that would be a closer representation of real life if you would actually be that stupid to do something like that.

But that is what a manual transmission is, what you are doing is limiting the gears. If it was true manual then if you if you select 7th gear it would go to 7th gear, you still in automatic mode.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Alexander9822

[LachenKrieg]

1 minute ago, Alexander9822 said:

But that is what a manual transmission is, you are limiting the gears. If it was true manual then if you if you select 7th gear it would go to 7th gear, you still in automatic mode.

But I am selecting 7th gear, and the transmission goes into 7th gear, and I see the appropriate change in speed. It might be your understanding of how a manual transmission works, but what you seem to be saying is that you want to be able to operate the tank in such a way that it can't and wouldn't normally operate. So you want the Commander to be able to ride around on the bow machine gun. Okay got it.

 

Rots a ruck wit dat one.... Just saying.

[Alexander9822]

 

2 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

But I am selecting 7th gear, and the transmission goes into 7th gear, and I see the appropriate change in speed. It might be your understanding of how a manual transmission works, but what you seem to be saying is that you want to be able to operate the tank in such a way that it can't and wouldn't normally operate. So you want the Commander to be able to ride around on the bow machine gun. Okay got it.

 

Rots a ruck wit dat one.... Just saying.

You are not selecting 7th gear, you are limiting the tank to 7th gear. Go drive up a hill and watch how your tank starts shifting down.  If your saying is correct then the tank should stay in 7th gear but it doesn't. The tank shifts down to maintain the RPM which is what an automatic transmission does. Not a manual. - Not too sure where the bow machine gun things comes in.

[Alexander9822]

So I guess you drive an automatic and use the sequential mode to feel like your driving a manual.

[No_Face]

2 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

You are in direct control. Every gear shift made in the video was made by me. I was not watching the game do anything. I was the one driving the tank and deciding what gear I wanted to use.

No. You simply indicated a limit.

I also made a video showing you that no, we are not controlling the gear shift:

https://youtu.be/Z7cRc4qFq18

Like you, I start to limit my speed at the first. I also invite you to look at the accelerator pedal (on the right), at no time during this video will I let go (except towards the end). I will always be accelerating fully.

At first, I don't switch gears right away, and the game doesn't do it for me. When I decide to change gear, the game engages it because the RPMs are at their maximum.

On the other hand, when going up the bridge (at 0:30) I ask for 7th gear (then the 8th) and the game does not engage it because it considers that my RPMs are too low. So I do not have control of the gear shift.

When the game judges that the RPMs are sufficient, it shifts the gears itself.

Once the bridge is crossed, when I come back on the flat, I lose speed. The RPMs drop and after a while the game downgrades itself (if I had control I would have downgraded sooner). You can also see that I am at 7/8. So I did not touch the gearbox.

When I pivot, once again the game alone decides to change the gears.

You will notice that when I decide to limit the reports, the game applies this limitation.

On the other hand at 1:52, you can see that I am in 3rd gear and that I am asking for 6th. The game does not pass the 6 immediately, it passes the 4 then the 5 and finally the 6th once the RPMs are at the maximum.

As when I stop the tank, I find myself in 1st gear. And although I asked for the 6th, it starts again without a problem.

 

Besides, that's what the game tells us.

 

1 hour ago, LachenKrieg said:

Saying you want to start out in 5th gear to stall the tank is making an argument for the sake of arguing.

However, it has value. This is called engine management / gear ratio and playing on it allows you to get better performance (when it's done well) or on the contrary a handicap in the event of an error.

Quote

Now if the Dev's want to model it so that you can select 7th gear to start out going up a hill so that the engine stalls, well yeah that would be a closer representation of real life if you would actually be that stupid to do something like that.

Whether you like it or not, they already have. Not with tanks, of course, but with planes. In airplanes you have engine management. If you do it wrong you can kill your engine. Are you saying it's stupid to manage its engine?

 

We are not asking for manual management of the gearbox for the sake of stalling the engine. We ask for more realism and more management (and therefore an impact on our combat performance (better or not depending on the pilot))

 

So that you understand what manual management of the gearbox is, I made this other video:

https://youtu.be/wzjuhtoxXmk

(Sorry, I played keyboard and mouse, so car movements are not smooth).

As you can see at the start, I can clearly select the speed I want.

I'll show you what it feels like NOT to shift gears. (which is different from limiting). The car grazes.

When I shift gears, it does so instantly, no matter my RPMs.

At 1:00, I show you what it feels like to go from 4th gear to 1st and the impact of the engine brake. (Note: in reality the car should not have had this behavior because I forgot to release my foot from the clutch pedal. The 1st gear should therefore not have been "validated". But difficult to blame the developer, he is alone.).

I then show you that if I want to start in 3rd, the engine stalls. On the other hand, in 2nd I managed to move forward although it was difficult. The gear engaged is not optimal, so my performance is poor.

Towards the end I even show you that we can shift a gear without clutching (but this is really not recommended).

Edited November 29, 2020 by No_Face
I had forgotten a link.

[Fierman]

The thing that TC needs most is some kind of AI for enemy tanks. The rest is minute details that surely can and will be fixed in the future.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Fierman

[Goosevich]

2 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Alas, that's an important point!

 

manual transmission

noun

an automotive transmission consisting of a system of interlocking gear wheels and a lever that enables the driver to shift gears manually.

 

Just thought I would throw this out there as a good starting point. Now if you go back to the video, what you see is I am doing what the dictionary describes as being the definition of a manual transmission. I am shifting the gears up and down. So what is it exactly that you want modeled that isn't there?

 

Saying you want to start out in 5th gear to stall the tank is making an argument for the sake of arguing. It has no value as part of a discussion regarding the accuracy of the SIM, because if you actually did that in real life, the Commander would probably have you dragged from your drivers hatch and shot on the spot.

 

Now if the Dev's want to model it so that you can select 7th gear to start out going up a hill so that the engine stalls, well yeah that would be a closer representation of real life if you would actually be that stupid to do something like that.

 

In other words, would the SIM be more realistic if the Commander could sit outside the tank on the bow machine gun while in battle?  I mean, maybe Alexander wants to do that because any real live Commander could have actually done that if he really wanted to. Is that something the Dev team should look into? Seriously?

 Except it's completly opposite - you are not in control, you are not shifting gears up and down. Google an automatic transmission with gear limiter (basically most of the US cars lol) ? it's like calling that kind of gearbox or an dual clutch auto box (DSG or similar) a manual gearbox just 'cos you can enter a "manual" mode and sequentialy change gears.
 Manual gearbox in a sim - It has a lot of value, since the gearbox can be damaged, and you can loose some gears (that would appear as neutral basically) so there is a point. Tanks, depending on the gearing and sloping of the terrain should teoreticly be able to start even from 5th gear (if they have more then 5) etc. etc. That's the point of the sim - simulating real world, and tank mobility is exactly what has to be simulated, manual transmission as well.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Goosevich

[Guest deleted@188321]

yeah, a manual transmission would be good but an auto clutch option would be good too because I already have a million keybinds ?

[Alexander9822]

I believe it should all be configurable. You want an auto transmission, you can select it in options, you want an manual trans, you got it, you want to control the clutch or not you can enable auto or manual clutch if you want.

[Goosevich]

Exactly.

[LachenKrieg]

 

5 hours ago, No_Face said:

No. You simply indicated a limit.

 

Like you, I start to limit my speed at the first. I also invite you to look at the accelerator pedal (on the right), at no time during this video will I let go (except towards the end). I will always be accelerating fully.

At first, I don't switch gears right away, and the game doesn't do it for me. When I decide to change gear, the game engages it because the RPMs are at their maximum.

On the other hand, when going up the bridge (at 0:30) I ask for 7th gear (then the 8th) and the game does not engage it because it considers that my RPMs are too low. So I do not have control of the gear shift.

When the game judges that the RPMs are sufficient, it shifts the gears itself.

Once the bridge is crossed, when I come back on the flat, I lose speed. The RPMs drop and after a while the game downgrades itself (if I had control I would have downgraded sooner). You can also see that I am at 7/8. So I did not touch the gearbox.

When I pivot, once again the game alone decides to change the gears.

You will notice that when I decide to limit the reports, the game applies this limitation.

On the other hand at 1:52, you can see that I am in 3rd gear and that I am asking for 6th. The game does not pass the 6 immediately, it passes the 4 then the 5 and finally the 6th once the RPMs are at the maximum.

As when I stop the tank, I find myself in 1st gear. And although I asked for the 6th, it starts again without a problem.

 

 

Whether you like it or not, they already have. Not with tanks, of course, but with planes. In airplanes you have engine management. If you do it wrong you can kill your engine. Are you saying it's stupid to manage its engine?

 

We are not asking for manual management of the gearbox for the sake of stalling the engine. We ask for more realism and more management (and therefore an impact on our combat performance (better or not depending on the pilot))

 

So to start, no I am not indicating a limit, I am controlling the RPM and deciding when to shift to a higher gear. In the linked video of this post, I drive the tank more closely to what it would be driven in real life in terms of engine RPM. In the first video, I was holding it past red-line just to demonstrate that I am controlling when the shift occurs. So in this video I use my engine power and transmission the way I would drive in real life. Every shift in the video was made by me and when I wanted it to occur.

 

Everything needed to simulate driving with manual shifts is modeled in the SIM. Like in real life, you would watch your RPM and speed to determine when to shift. You even have the max road speeds for each gear and the top off-road speed given in the Specs for each tank. So you have everything you need to operate each tank with manual shifts. The gang in this conversation don't seem to realize that a lot of people occupy all 4 positions by themselves, and it would be stupid to be in the Gunner's position, while the tank stayed in first gear.

 

So if you are going to use the SIM the way you have described above, then yeah it will shift up and down for you as it probably can't decide whether you are unable to pay attention to what is actually happening in front of you, or you are in the Commanders cupola. But if you really want to simulate driving with manual shifts, then you wouldn't use the SIM the way you are. Try the Tiger while using the "z" and "x" key, and set the max gear to 1 before you start driving. Then use an RPM of 2800 to shift up, and and RPM of 1400 to shift down. The game will no longer have to shift up and down for you, because you will be manually shifting the tank by yourself. The fact that you want to shift into an inappropriate gear for your speed and RPM is not a problem with the model, the problem is with how you are using it. Like you said above, are you saying it's stupid to manage the engine?

 

If your desire is to be able to closely simulate driving in a real tank, then my only suggestion to you would be to work on your technique, because the reasons the SIM is responding the way that it has is because of the way you are using it. Everything you need is included in the model, its up to you if you want to use it, just like its up to you which position you occupy while you drive around.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Alexander9822 said:

I believe it should all be configurable. You want an auto transmission, you can select it in options, you want an manual trans, you got it, you want to control the clutch or not you can enable auto or manual clutch if you want.

But that is pretty much what you have at the moment. If you want the SIM to shift for you, just set the max gear to 8 and drive on. If you want to manually shift the gears yourself, then you going to have to spend some energy paying attention to what's happening and do it.

 

 

4 hours ago, Goosevich said:

 Except it's completly opposite - you are not in control, you are not shifting gears up and down. Google an automatic transmission with gear limiter (basically most of the US cars lol) ? it's like calling that kind of gearbox or an dual clutch auto box (DSG or similar) a manual gearbox just 'cos you can enter a "manual" mode and sequentialy change gears.
 Manual gearbox in a sim - It has a lot of value, since the gearbox can be damaged, and you can loose some gears (that would appear as neutral basically) so there is a point. Tanks, depending on the gearing and sloping of the terrain should teoreticly be able to start even from 5th gear (if they have more then 5) etc. etc. That's the point of the sim - simulating real world, and tank mobility is exactly what has to be simulated, manual transmission as well.

Watch the video, yes I am shifting the gears up and down.

Edited November 29, 2020 by LachenKrieg

[Alexander9822]

I honestly believe your trolling now. When everyone is proving how wrong you are. You keep saying your right but the world is wrong.

[No_Face]

Other additions or improvements that I would like to see in the game:

 

-When we equip the binoculars, I like that one does not look through automatically. I would prefer that we take them in hand then that we have to aim (right mouse button for example).

This will avoid equipping / going out constantly.

-I would also like it to be possible to store the binoculars (or flare gun) by pressing the button that allowed them to be equipped (ex : Ctrl + 5 to take the binoculars in hand then again Ctrl + 5 for storing. In addition to Ctrl + tilde)

-I would like there to be road signs on the side of roads and at intersections, but also signs at the entrance to villages indicating the name of these. This will allow us to better orient ourselves.

[Alexander9822]

I agree @No_Face, but I remember that the villages used to take down the signs of the villages so to stop the enemy from knowing where they are.

[No_Face]

1 minute ago, Alexander9822 said:

I agree @No_Face, but I remember that the villages used to take down the signs of the villages so to stop the enemy from knowing where they are.

Yes it is true but I do not know if it was done everywhere and systematically.

If in the reality there were no more signposts, then they must not be present in the game.

12 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

The gang in this conversation don't seem to realize that a lot of people occupy all 4 positions by themselves, and it would be stupid to be in the Gunner's position, while the tank stayed in first gear.

If you are a gunner, then the driver (IA) will automatically shift gears. Your tank will therefore not stay in 1st.

As now, if you are a driver, the shooter (AI knows what to do, even change the type of ammunition.)

 

(I am only answering you on that because I am afraid that my English will make me misinterpret your words). You made a video, I made one and obviously we don't see the same thing. It doesn't matter, I'm not here to go to war with anyone.) ?