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chiliwili69

Valve Index vs. Pimax5K+: Which one to pick? (through lens pictures)

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Posted (edited)

Here I am again in the "terrible" point to decide which headset should I keep. Since I am not in a hurry I would like take my time to analyze every aspect of each device: Confort, FOV, visual detail, sweet spot, performance, tracking, etc, etc exclusively for IL-2 and for my current rig (spec at signature). Other games or aspects (controllers) will not enter in the equation.

The loser will go directly to ebay with great sorrow, sine both are great headsets.

I plan to create a common flight record (of just 1 second) to compare spotting, ID, Gauges with through the lenses pictures.

And I will probably do a new flight record (1 or 2 minutes) to compare performances as I used to do in the benchmark thread (but only for this comparison).

 

Just to note that in the Pimax, I improved the fixing using the Vive Deluxe Audio strap just to be a bit on pair with the Index, since it is easy upgrades to the device.

 

If there is any specific thing you want me to compare with the headsets, please let me know and I will try to do it.

 

The specs of both devices are shown in this thread:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/49868-specs-summary-rift-s-index-pimax5k-and-reverb/

 

Here I just present the two contenders! and I will add more posts along the weekend:

 

20190703_192933.thumb.jpg.d40f711bb8920a3e57d45690b372ab34.jpg

 

20190703_192952.thumb.jpg.20a99d3bc00c177c156c07dcaed87ea7.jpg

 

20190703_193021.thumb.jpg.7b2670cf18fa9752aece2761c43c1e55.jpg

 

Here I also wanted to show our dog.  😉 

 

20190703_193158.thumb.jpg.d952a027a21638b407241e07c3f1f819.jpg

Edited by chiliwili69
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Posted (edited)

As I've chimed earlier, I'm interested in spotting ground units. As it is now with my Rift, I can spend unhealthy amount of time trying to spot the enemies even if I've checked their position from the map. In MP, that would be suicidal.

 

Secondly, one thing that rarely has been spoken of, is the importance of the vertical FOV. At this point, I'd rate vertical FOV at least, if not even more important than horizontal FOV, because my dogfights include always a lot of vertical and horizontal turning and that means a great deal of strain to my neck. And those times you lose your target just because you didn't have the few extra degrees of vision, are quite numerous.

 

So, if you have the time, maybe give these a look?

 

 

Edited by Horna
stuff

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Had the Index (full set) for a day, buddy had it but couldn't use it, so I bought it off him. Picked the Pimax, so the Index went back to Valve. For IL-2, the FOV is even more important than for other games imo.

 

If you don't have the controllers anyway there is no real reason to keep the Index. In headset to headset competition, Pimax wins.

 

I just wish it wasn't all in one full set, could have kept the knuckles then. Will have to wait for my Sword Sense controllers to arrive. Wands till then.

 

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8 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Had the Index (full set) for a day, buddy had it but couldn't use it, so I bought it off him. Picked the Pimax, so the Index went back to Valve. For IL-2, the FOV is even more important than for other games imo.

 

If you don't have the controllers anyway there is no real reason to keep the Index. In headset to headset competition, Pimax wins.

 

I just wish it wasn't all in one full set, could have kept the knuckles then. Will have to wait for my Sword Sense controllers to arrive. Wands till then.

 

Also ordered the sword controllers and the base stations set let's see

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I’m very interested in the result. I just saw a thread where someone gave some coherent reasons they were returning their Index, basically that it wasn’t enough of an improvement over the Rift S to be worth it. But that’s a general use-case, not IL2/sims.

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On 7/3/2019 at 9:05 PM, chiliwili69 said:

The loser will go directly to ebay with great sorrow, sine both are great headsets.

 

If the loser is Index I can buy it from you for a reasonable price! ☺️

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Posted (edited)

Well, I have just completed the first round of through the lens pictures. 

All pictures has been taken with the same IL-2 settings (same than benchmark: High settings, AAx2, 4K textures, Sharpen, Landscape blurred, distance land detail x2, gamma 08, etc).

Using the same Panasonic Lumix compact camera with 14Megapixels used in other comparisons. It is not a perfect camera, but it is equally imperfect for both headsets.

 

For the Index I have used SteamVR SS at 140%. The recommended is 130% for my 1080Ti, but with 140% it goes very fluent. This is 12.6 million pixels:

index.jpg.787ee0bfaaf4b71d234c04ddca9fc0e1.jpg

 

For the Pimax5K+ I have used SteamVR at 100%, with RQ=1 and Normal FOV. The recommended is 56% for my 1080Ti, I normally play with 66%, want wanted to increase to 100% just to put enough pixels. This is  25.3 million pixels, almost double than the Index.

 

pimax.jpg.d32f46abd9f44b8bb2f118c4e832e77e.jpg

 

I have created a series of visual benchmarks to compare ID, Ground, gauges and details (planes, ships).

All the tracks that I have used can be downloaded from here.

All the raw images and crops can be downloaded from here. They are shorted in a way it is better to compare one after the other. The quality is better in the raw shots.

 

The Index has some more pixels vertically (1600 vs 1440), but the Pimax5K+ has much more pixels horizontally (2560 vs 1440), 1120 pixels per eye more than Index. But they are spread in a larger FOV (the normal FOV of Pimax5K+ is about 140-150 degrees, but Index is about 120 according to specs, but I still has not measure them).

With Pimax5K+ you would say 2560x2/145 is 35.3 pixels per degree.

With Index you would say 1440x2/120 is 24 pixels per degree.

So you would expect a higher level of detail in Pimax5K+, but this is not the case since the pixels of the panel are not equally distributed, there are more density in the edges than in the center since the perspective is more normal (ie 90) in the center than in the edges.

So, at the end of the day the important thing is what you see through your eyes. The camera pictures is just an approximation which I think represent what I really see with my eyes.

 

IDENTIFICATION:

01-Compo-ID.thumb.png.a62ab67e86707909b424e96a5c9081a8.png

 

GROUND SPOT and DETAILS:

02-Compo-Ground.thumb.png.d87f2611cf5eea66be74976eada0c72f.png

 

 

GAUGES:

03-Compo-Gauges.thumb.png.8a99f4dbc46d3fff1c6e5a2f4196e1f7.png

 

Edited by chiliwili69
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Very interested. Although my research showed it wasn`t worth the cash investment for what you get, at least for the Index. That massive FOV for the Pimax certainly looks attractive, though.

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More pictures, but to really understand the detail you have to download the pictures. Here the forum visualizer introduce some smoothing, so this is not exactly what you see.

DETAILS PLANE:

04-Compo-Plane.thumb.png.5fbfb65647c77422422143d1860735f3.png

 

DETAILS SHIP:

05-Compo-ship.thumb.png.5217dcab4cc0e971597b7282499a2419.png

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4 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

More pictures, but to really understand the detail you have to download the pictures. Here the forum visualizer introduce some smoothing, so this is not exactly what you see.

 

Chili can you describe what you see? It looks from the pictures like there is similar detail between the two headsets, but the Pimax image is a bit more 'rough' and it looks like the pixel fill is not as good as the Index (= more SDE on Pimax?). But I know our eyes perceive things very differently. Purely based on the photos and ignoring the FOV, it looks like Index is better visually? Is that what you perceive with your eyes?

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Chili, previously someone on this forum noticed image degradation in the index when moving your head. Vertical lines and and a more pronounced sde appearing unless you keep your head still. Do you notice any of this? If so this would suggest some post processing going on with the index and frankly the index pictures you presented look like more than 2x aa, which could be attributed to the same.

 

if there really is an image clarity difference with the index when slowly moving your head and a still image it’s a rather big deal. Though I don’t expect you to take through the lens pictures from a moving index.

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Thank you Chiliwili69, this is a very thorough and good analysis.

 

I've had the Index as well, granted only for a day before I sent it back. @SvAF/F16_radek I didn't notice much image degradation when moving my head. What I noticed were vertical lines when shifting the headset left right a bit going in and out of focus, and massive glare, with smaller FOV. The Pimax5K+ is very similar - but objects seemed a bit more corny. It was easier to spot (AI) targets at range, in the air and radically easier of the ground, when using the Pimax5K+. I didn't use ingame AA. I will have to try it as well.

 

I have done another crime now, after sending back the full package, I ordered the Knuckles Controllers (had them reserved). So I'll be using Pimax5K+, LH1.0, Knuckles Controllers. :big_boss:

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Thank you Fenris. Good point regarding spotting. Definitely a difference in general sharpness. Would be nice to see one of these images with more humane ss chili. Like the 66% you normally use. If you were to go at it again.

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chiliwili69 Great job!

Do you see any friezes in flight on Pimax5k? For example. If you choose a quick flight, Tushino, lower-right airfield. I go down, fly over the airfield, canal, factory and see rare friezes. The image seems to freeze for 0.1-0.2 seconds. It's not constant, but it's very disturbing. The frame counter is stable (72 or 90, no matter I have a powerful system). I tried a variety of settings. These disgusting friezes do not pass.

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4 hours ago, WallterScott said:

chiliwili69 Great job!

Do you see any friezes in flight on Pimax5k? For example. If you choose a quick flight, Tushino, lower-right airfield. I go down, fly over the airfield, canal, factory and see rare friezes. The image seems to freeze for 0.1-0.2 seconds. It's not constant, but it's very disturbing. The frame counter is stable (72 or 90, no matter I have a powerful system). I tried a variety of settings. These disgusting friezes do not pass.

 

do u have "4k textures" checked in game Graphics settings?

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Posted (edited)

@WallterScott No freezes. You may want to know that freezes are not tied to the headset, but the reason lies within your PC's configuration and IL-2's process. You will have them on other headsets as well.

 

You may want to look for processes in the background that hickup. Also, my recommendation, get a dedicated gaming SSD - install Windows10 on it seperately, keep it clean, only play VR IL-2 on it. It's very susceptible to be disturbed by other tasks, that's IL-2 for you. Then boot from this SSD if you want to play IL-2.

 

We all suffer from these things.

 

 

What you can try is go into NVIDIA Settings and set "pre-rendered frames = 3"

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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In game AA for me on the Pimax 8K leads to quite a blurry image.  If one uses sharpening filter in Il2 it might help but then you are near back to square 1 with jaggies.  I keep them both off and use PiTool Render slider with SteamVR at either 50% or 100%

 

Usually Pitool Render 1 and SteamVR Video 50%

 

Then again, acording to some I am full of it so your mileage might vary.😉

 

Recent updates to SteamVR seem to make things a bit clearer.  There is also vertical image adjustment one can try with the most recent PiTool for improving clarity.  The wide FOV is a good thing in my honest opinion.

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Posted (edited)

If you download the all raw pictures in the link of first post, you will see that there are a couple of pictures where I have used the 3x optical zoom of the Lumix camera. I was doing that to take more closer view of the pixels itself.

The "Screen Door Effect" (SDE) is an effect that has not affected me a lot in the past with the DK1, DK2, Rift and Pimax. This is perhaps because I am fully focused in visualizing the scene and not the screen in front of me. But with the Index I have learnt to valorate the reduction of SDE over the Pimax. I see that the fill of the pixels is better in the Index than in the Pimax, leaving less space between pixels. Here I show a cropped image where you can see black lines between pixels in the Pimax and much less in the Index:

1302242829_Pixelfill.thumb.png.1aca041c47684f2f9bdd5ca991e1b180.png

 

Another aspect that I have been checking this afternoon is how big is the Sweet Spot.

It seems that there are two definitions of Sweet Spot:

a) how big is the area where you can position your eyes to achieve a focused vision (ie moving the whole headset up/down right/left)

b) Having you head well fixed to the headset (so the eyes are well centered and achieve a clear vision at the center), then you only move your eyes around the center of the view and see if the objects are also focused.

 

For me, Sweet Spot means the second option. So in the real world we have the capability to focus on objects not at the center of the view by simply moving the eyes. In VR we also want to do the same but then, if the sweet spot is small we see blured image around the center and we are forced to move our head to have a focused view.

 

A clear example of a really small sweet spot is the VivePro with the original VivePRo lenses. (this is the worst thing of the vivepro).

The Rift had a decent sweet spot, and the Pimax as well has also a big sweet spot, but to me, the sweet spot of the Index in clearly superior to the Pimax in absolute terms.

You can check a bit of it in the raw images of the gauges if you download that pictures from the link above.

 

It is totally true that the bigger FOV of the Pimax is great, but most of the peripheral vision is not focused, so you have you turn your head if you want to have a focused image.

 

Image clarity in both headsets are great, but after doing a consecutive test of both of them, I prefer a bit more the vision of the Index, it seems a bit more more real and vivid. Just my preference. (and without taking into account that Index has less FOV).

On 7/7/2019 at 5:58 AM, Alonzo said:

Chili can you describe what you see? It looks from the pictures like there is similar detail between the two headsets, but the Pimax image is a bit more 'rough' and it looks like the pixel fill is not as good as the Index (= more SDE on Pimax?). But I know our eyes perceive things very differently. Purely based on the photos and ignoring the FOV, it looks like Index is better visually? Is that what you perceive with your eyes?

 

Yes, this is what I perceive with my eyes as well. That´s why I had a Wow moment when I first tried the Index after several months with the Pîmax5K+. I thought, those Valve guys have done a good job indeed!

As said above now, the SDE is less in Index (although it was also not really disturbing me at Pimax5K+).

When I look the wings of the spitfire from the cabin, I think, wow, it can´t be better. they are so real, perfectly focused in a big area.

With the Pîmax the view is also great but I prefer the Index view.

Here I have just crop one area of the Spit wings, you can see there are more pixels vertically and also more refined image:

801457160_wingspit.png.0c97ce193cc507e3a668c717ef1fb240.png

On 7/7/2019 at 9:42 AM, SvAF/F16_radek said:

Chili, previously someone on this forum noticed image degradation in the index when moving your head. Vertical lines and and a more pronounced sde appearing unless you keep your head still. Do you notice any of this?

 

No, I didn´t notice any difference in the moving the head (slowly or fast) or keeping still.

On 7/7/2019 at 9:42 AM, SvAF/F16_radek said:

Though I don’t expect you to take through the lens pictures from a moving index.

I can record a video with the Lumix compact camera, but you will not notice any difference

Edited by chiliwili69
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On 7/7/2019 at 11:36 AM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

've had the Index as well, granted only for a day before I sent it back

 

It is not being as easy for me to decide. I am really surprised that you just decide that in 4 hours.

It is true that a bigger FOV gives you a deeper feeling of immersion, and the Pimax is good at it, but the FOV of the Index it is also not as bad. At least, eliminate the clasical "binocular vision" of the Rift.

Also another thing that I prefer the Index is finding the right position for the headset, ti is much quicker to regulate up-down, tilt more-less, IPD adjust, eyes relief etc. With the Pimax I always have to spend about 1 or 2 minutes until finding again the exactly right position to see everything right. With the Index is just 10 seconds.

On 7/7/2019 at 5:56 PM, SvAF/F16_radek said:

Would be nice to see one of these images with more humane ss chili. Like the 66% you normally use. If you were to go at it again.

 

Surprisingly there is not a huge difference in the Pimax from going from 100%SS to 66%. Here some sample pictures I took when I did some previous tests:

2-Pimax(66-100).png.65b2e511dab8050f690a238e7d737956.png

3-Pimax(66-100).png.c1ea05bd50863eaecdd4f4753bb6ac46.png

On 7/8/2019 at 10:51 AM, WallterScott said:

Do you see any friezes in flight on Pimax5k?

 

The effect you describe happens with any headset when your GPU load is near 100%. Try to use a very low SS (Render Quality=1 and StamVR SS=30%) and then monitorize your GPU load with a trend of 100ms with MSI Afterburner.

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On 7/4/2019 at 1:59 AM, Horna said:

Secondly, one thing that rarely has been spoken of, is the importance of the vertical FOV. At this point, I'd rate vertical FOV at least, if not even more important than horizontal FOV, because my dogfights include always a lot of vertical and horizontal turning and that means a great deal of strain to my neck. And those times you lose your target just because you didn't have the few extra degrees of vision, are quite numerous.

 

The Vertical FOV in the Index is quite great, I would say bigger than Pimax and much better than Rift.

I have not measure them with a tool but I will try.

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Posted (edited)

The binocular vision in the Index was that hit me like a door, followed by the glare. I then compared the clarity, and it was the same. Case closed for me there regarding the HMD.

 

The FOV has been measured, it's not bigger than the Pimax' though. Index' vertical FOV rests at 105°, the 130° are diagonal. Like the Pimax5K+'s 200° are diagonal too.

 

 

I have now received the Index Controllers in a separate package. Unfortunately I am worried they have the Thumbstick issue - so that their position is lost, as soon as you click the thumbstick. I have just been downloading SkyrimVR again and will check it tomorrow - if I can run forward using the stick, then press the thumbstick down to start sprinting - or if the avatar will come to a hold. And Valve just dodged people's claims on this glaring oversight / quality issue. For 300€ I can expect the damn things to work properly.

 

Overall, I am deeply dissatisfied with what Valve has delivered. The hype was real, but the lack of actual quality delivered is astounding. They have since announced publicly and in the support tickets that this was by design. A report on it to read here. If that's true, they are going back as well. Again. But this time, for good.

 

 

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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* The above ad has been paid for by PIMAX inc.   🤑

 

We get it; the index is a notoriously subpar cheap product with bad company support and a house of hype lies, and you own the best manufactured Pimax with all its pixels included, super clear FOV lenses, great fast customer service, and fantastic controllers with no name.

 

You and like seventy other dudes agree on this.

 

I bet you think apple sucks too

 

and Microsoft.

 

 

I literally used Pimax 5k for a day and saw none of the greatness you see.  There are enough people using these headsets to get varied opinions without spamming hate and discontent.  Make your point and let it go man.

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Posted (edited)

It is now the time to analyze performance for IL-2 and my system with both devices.

My CPU is a 4790K running at 4.8GhZ with 1.3 Vcore. Fastest DDR3 RAM and 1080Ti. I could upgrade my system tomorrow if I wanted, but I still don´t see the upgrade will give me a significant enhancement for IL-2 VR. I am waiting to next gen CPUs and next gen GPUs for now.

 

I have created 2 tracks benchmarks. You can download all tracks from one of the above posts.

BENCH1: 110 seconds, Spitfire in Kuban summer Novorossiysk against some bombers. Time 18:30. No clouds. (clouds drops performance a lot)

BENCH2: 87 seconds, Spitfire in Kuban summer Novorossiysk destroying four Ju-52, lot of fire and smoke. Time 18:30. No clouds.

 

The Graphcis options are like the old benchmarking: High Settings, Shadows medium, Mirrors off, distant landscape x2, Horizon draw 100Km, Landscape filter Blurred, Grass Normal, Clouds Medium, DRF=1, AA x2, gamma 0.8.

 

Since both headsets offers frequencies below 90Hz, (72 for Pimax and 80 for Index) I have not doubted to use them for the bench, since they will be the freqs that I will use for playing. I have been using the 72Hz with the Pimax last two months and they are ok in terms of freq.

So, regarding only the freq experience, boths headsets run well at 72 (Pimax) and 80 (Index). This helps not only the GPU load but also the CPU load since less scenes per second need to be generated, everything which helps CPU load (single core load) is very much welcomed in IL-2 VR.

 

Then, for the applied SS (using normal Fov in Pimax):

60% for the Pimax, this is 2984Hx2549V per eye, so 15.2million pixels in total at 72Hz, making 1.09 billion pixels per second. (I consider 60% minimum acceptable)

140% for the Index, this is 2385Hx2650V per eye, so 12.6million pixels in total at 80Hz making 1.01 billion pixels per second. (going beyond 140% is not worth the extra detail)

 

The SteamVR recommended SS in Pimax for my PC and 72Hz is 56% (which is 14.2million pixels at 72Hz, so 1.02 billion pixels per second)

The SteamVR recommended SS in Index for my PC and 80Hz is 150% (which is 13.5 million pixels at 80Hz, so 1.08 billion pixels per second)

 

BENCH1 results: (here I also run the bench in 4K monitor at 60Hz):

In the 4K monitor we can see the overall load of the bench1. Average fps is 156.

The Index keeps almost always at 80 fps, excepts to low peaks (marine artillery hit my Spit!). Average fps is 78.2. So 97.8% close to max (80fps)

The Pimax5K+ has a harder time to try to be at 72fps, but always above 60. Average fps is 65.8. So 91.5% close to max (72 fps)

bench1.thumb.png.ad4d9f909bf92d37ab5102f150eab220.png

 

BENCH2 results: (here I also run the Pimax at SS=100% just to see influence)

The Index keeps 80 almost all time except when the ablaze Ju-52 crash in ground. Avg is 78.5fps.

The Pimax does well at beginning but later can not keep the 72fps and slowly go down to 60 (much trailing smoke and fire). Avg is 68.2.

The Pimax at 100% is a non-go for me, it is severely affected in fps.

bench2.png.5fa0008fe60e466ee399f729b6f02e79.png

 

Conclusion, just performance 

 

Basically it shows what we already knew. The Pimax is more demanding in terms of performance even if the 72Hz mode unload more the CPU than the 80Hz of the Index.

In order to be on the high fps range you need to decrease the SS significantly (I used 66% in the past), but you don´t need to do that on the Index, in fact you can go to 140%SS and be most of the time at the 80fps.

 

Going down to SS 60% is acceptable for me, but then you get a little bit worse visual detail and clarity than in the Index with 140%SS. 

 

The "problem" of the Pimax is that it has a so big FOV that "waste" precious pixels in the periferia. The GPU spend the same resources drawing a pixel in the blurry periferia than in the cristal clear center, in fact there is less physical pixels per angle in the center of the view than in the periferia. Pimax has gone too far in terms of FOV. Ideally they could focus in a simpler headset with less FOV (150 is already quite enough), more simple lenses and a bigger sweet spot.

 

NOTE:

Pimax has incorporated the Fixed Foveated Rendering (FFR) technique which could improve the performance with SS=100%, but for now it is only (if works) for RTX cards.

Other techniques equivalent to Oculus ASW (Motion Smoothing in Index, or SmartSmoothing in Pimax) are not considered here. They still introduce some artifacts, but I am not going to compare those techniques since I normally don´t use them.

 

Edited by chiliwili69
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Here I found a video where the vertical and horizontal FOVs are compared:

image.png.0ac8f740061d007f165829638c369561.png

 

the link of the video is this

https://youtu.be/A0mrLVhI3zw?t=4260

 

I have acquired an app (called TestHMD) which has some FOV measuring capabilities. Not sure if I can use that without controllers...

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Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2019 at 6:34 AM, WIS-Redcoat said:

* The above ad has been paid for by PIMAX inc.   🤑

 

We get it; the index is a notoriously subpar cheap product with bad company support and a house of hype lies, and you own the best manufactured Pimax with all its pixels included, super clear FOV lenses, great fast customer service, and fantastic controllers with no name.

 

You and like seventy other dudes agree on this.

 

I bet you think apple sucks too

 

and Microsoft.

 

 

I literally used Pimax 5k for a day and saw none of the greatness you see.  There are enough people using these headsets to get varied opinions without spamming hate and discontent.  Make your point and let it go man.

So you attack me, and mention let it go in the same post.

 

You're calling me paid by Pimax. If I had to work for them that would probably be a downgrade, I got family man. Btw I'm using Index Controllers, Vive Lighthouses, and Logitech sound.

 

The Pimax doesn't provide these accessories yet, which is its flaw, but its screens are better than the Index. FOV trumps unachievable 120Hz in IL2. Also, let me repeat here; each to his own opinion.

 

If you can't handle that, maybe a forum isn't the right place for you. I recommend a Twitter channel or Instagram, you can send your message and disable all comments.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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Getting more & more interested which way the dime falls....(and the reasons why)

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There is one curious item about the performance tests that I want to show here. When I was running the tests (I run a series of them to check consistency) I also run in parallel the MSI Afterburner app to track the GPU load and other variables (this app doesn´t impact IL-2 VR performance, I hace checked it independently).

 

Since in the test with Bench2 with the Pimax was hardy keeping 72 fps I expect to see the GPU load near 100%, but surprisingly it is not fully load. 

 

In the below picture I have superimposed the GPU load trend provided by MSI Afterburner for the 3 runs of the test (Index, Pimax at 60% and Pimax at 100%).

 

1. Neither the Pimax 60% or 100% is fully loaded. So why it doesn´t keep the fps at 72? maybe Pitool processing is bottleneck?

2. Going from 60% to 100% only increase the load of GPU by 10%!!  But the impact in fps is much bigger. Why?

3. The GPU load trend of the Index show how it is going up to 90% load when there is smoke and fire in the scene. The load is almost tracking the amount of smoke and fire in scene. Curious thing is that this extra work of smoke is done by GPU not by CPU

4. Another curious thing is that the Pimax load remains almost constant during the smoke&fire scenes, while the Index GPU load change according to the need. It seems like this extra work in the Pimax case is performed by CPU (not by GPU) and then it produces lose of fps since CPU is bottlenecked.

 

Who can explain all this effects?

Everyone with a Pimax or Index can check by them selves using the link of the tracks above.

 

index-pimax-GPUload.thumb.png.2c0d707772a60a619912555c5405cf86.png

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I ordered the new Pimax 5K XR OLED  headset from Amazon some days ago, and threads like this make me think if I made a grave mistake. I will receive the headset tomorrow and I´m already worried instead of hyped, as I should be.

I come from the Rift CV1, using it on IL-2, War Thunder and DCS sims only and , sincerely, I decided to go for this 1000 eur. Pimax because the HP Reverb (new revision) headset is delayed until August and, thanks to Amazon, I will be able to return the unit in case I´m not satisfied with the results.

I read on some places the the 5K+ is better, others 8k is better, lots of through the lens comparisons videos, lots of software tweaks are needed for a decent flight, lots of pitools beta versions, etc... 

My point, and my real question, is anyone happy and flying with Pimax 5k or 8k daily? With Rift CV1, and my current specs, my flight is smooth as butter, with all setting at max and SS at 180% on SteamVR. I cant stand the low resolution flight dials and the unreadable text of the cockpit, the low fov, or the glare, so I decide to change. I wonder if I will notice a real improvement over Rift CV1 with same settings.  Thanks in advance.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

So you attack me, and mention let it go in the same post.

 

 

If you can't handle that, maybe a forum isn't the right place for you. I recommend a Twitter channel or Instagram, you can send your message and disable all comments.

 

That was a joke Fenris, not an "attack", you should relax a little. 

 

It's tiring to see in every index related thread three or four people give good opinions on the Index and you will almost always post some weird Reddit post about thumbsticks or a video on scary glare that is all but discounted in the sim by... everyone.  Using phrases like "deeply disappointing", or build quality statements as "bullshit", or describing your let down as "astounding". 

 

You are essentially the only person I have seen speak of the index as a giant pile of failure.  

 

If you are going to use such dramatic rhetoric you should expect some poking drama.  I used the Pimax and the experience was (for me) terrible yet I don't go into every pimax thread and continuously bash the hell out of its flaws because everyone clearly knows what those flaws already are.  To do so would look like I had an axe to grind.

 

Edited by WIS-Redcoat
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@chiliwili69
I posted your findings at Pimaf forums and got this reply

 

"This problem has been confirmed as a Windows bug, which affects other VR headsets and apparently non-VR systems as well. Microsoft has found a solution and will push a Windows Update with the fix (eventually). Microsoft has said the fix will be available by “the end of August”.

 

""Has anyone seen this? HOWEVER, there is a caveat to this. There is apparently a bug in 1903 that causes CPU overuse and GPU underuse . Windows 10 1903 that is. First link: Good news. I already knew that NVIDIA and MS were aware of this bug post-1903 and they are currently working on a fix. Second link: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1153272/geforce-drivers/announcing-geforce-hotfix-driver-431-18-released-6-21-19-/post/6113541/#6113541 “Thank you everyone for pro… """

 

https://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/load-and-performance-figures-from-il-2/21040/2?u=goblin

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

FOV trumps unachievable 120Hz in IL2

 

Oddly I haven't had an issue with this.  I agree many others don't seem to be able to achieve this but I am getting great frames at 120Hz, SS at 150%; both here and in DCS.

 

I cannot begin to explain why, I have a 2080ti and a great computer but nothing "crazy" good.

Edited by WIS-Redcoat

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Guys,

 

Has anyone used either the Index or the Pimax with motion cancellation? This is necessary for a motion sim. You can cancel it in the Vive Pro, but I need to test with other units. Anyone done it with either of these?

 

Jason

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

Has anyone used either the Index or the Pimax with motion cancellation?

 

By motion cancellation are you referring to motion smoothing, SmartSmoothing or ASW? If so, chilli mentions so in this thread 9 posts above yours. He turned it off.

 

If not, then I am not sure what you are referring to and will leave it to others to comment.

Edited by =EXPEND=Tripwire

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No that's not what I am referring to. It's needed for motion sims.

 

Jason

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Posted (edited)

@=EXPEND=Tripwire It's a tracker fastened to the moving motion sim itself, whose orientation is tracked (goes negative) and thus constantly counteracts/cancels the pitch and lean of the motion sim in the software. It thus injects a new virtual base/ground, which is dynamic in reality (tied to the constantly moving motion sim), base of constantly fed variables from which you can do your calculations on for the 6DOF camera.

 

Sorry if I misused any specific terms, tried to make it clear.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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10.07.2019 в 01:57, chiliwili69 сказал:

The effect you describe happens with any headset when your GPU load is near 100%. Try to use a very low SS (Render Quality=1 and StamVR SS=30%) and then monitorize your GPU load with a trend of 100ms with MSI Afterburner.

 

12.07.2019 в 16:14, chiliwili69 сказал:

1. Neither the Pimax 60% or 100% is fully loaded. So why it doesn´t keep the fps at 72? maybe Pitool processing is bottleneck?

 

12.07.2019 в 16:14, chiliwili69 сказал:

Who can explain all this effects? 

Everyone with a Pimax or Index can check by them selves using the link of the tracks above.

 

I don't have a Pimax 5k anymore. I sold it because I couldn't fix the friezes. And Yes, judging by monitoring CPU and GPU did not work at full load. Even on high settings (STEAM 2500Х2300) download GPU hasn't been above 66%.  My system i9900k 5.2 AVX0, DDR4 4266 cl17, 2080ti 2100Ggz

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On 7/12/2019 at 3:29 PM, 3ra_Luke said:

I wonder if I will notice a real improvement over Rift CV1 with same settings.

 

Hey, You don´t really need to worry. You will get an improved image clarity over the Rift, a great FOV! (this is the best thing), but you will need to do some teaks until everything is more or less fine (right face cushion, Deluxe Audio Strap, overclock your CPU to get the right performance, etc). There are many happy owners of the Pimax5K, including me.

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On 7/12/2019 at 4:29 PM, 3ra_Luke said:

My point, and my real question, is anyone happy and flying with Pimax 5k or 8k daily?

Me, I'm happy flying with my 8K on the specs as listed in my sig.

 

Looking at either Game Render setting of 1 or 1.25 in PiTool 1.0.1.144 and with latest Nvidia Drivers

SteamVR Vid set at 50%, App 100%,  Il2 on Low graphic settings except terrain detail at 4, clouds and shadows high.

 

Would like to build a better system when I can afford it but that coupled with an upgrade to the 8K-X when it is available.  Native res better than upscaled especially when scaled from 1440p to 4k per eye.  With some tweaks - Pimax gives a good experience with improvements to continue down the track.

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8 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

Hey, You don´t really need to worry. You will get an improved image clarity over the Rift, a great FOV! (this is the best thing), but you will need to do some teaks until everything is more or less fine (right face cushion, Deluxe Audio Strap, overclock your CPU to get the right performance, etc). There are many happy owners of the Pimax5K, including me.

Thanks Chili. I´ve spend the weekend testing 5k XR and I must say, once you find the correct settings, the experience is great. I´ve never owned a 5K+ or 8K but with the Pimax 5K XR the blacks are great and there´s no glare at all. Or at least, I cant notice it. The FOV is very good, but what I was looking for was the readability of the cockpit instruments, and I must say is really surprising. For me,  in the sweet spot, once you focus your eyes on the zone of the instruments, for the first time, I can say I could fly (not only IL-2 but also other sims, like DCS, Aerofly FS2 or War Thunder) almost the same as if I was using an external screen. I´m using PiTools 1.0.1.144 and I´m sure if I tweak it more (I readed something about changing offsets for improving sweet spot??) I will get even better results.

But...I have only a big problem with this 5K XR , and is the uncomfortable that it is. Nothing compared to Oculus Rift. I need to constantly adjust the unit in my face because the strap system is terrible. The lens zone close to the nose is constantly touching my upper nose zone, and its really hurting me, and I mean real pain. Now I understand why some people uses a "counterweight" in the back strap, to lift the unit, and avoid the fall of it over the nose. I know this problem maybe could be solved with a better face cushion and the Deluxe Audio Strap from Vive, but in Amazon Spain, the cushions you mentioned and use, are no longer available, and for the DAS , you need also to print some plastic adapters, and I dont have access to a 3D printer. I see you managed to do some nice mods with your 5k. Could you help me ?  Could this work as cushion? https://www.amazon.es/Miayaya-Almohadillas-Espuma-para-Vive/dp/B07R559TPP/ref=sr_1_15?__mk_es_ES=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=reemplazo+de+cara+espuma+htc&qid=1563163957&s=electronics&sr=1-15  I dont want to loose FOV and I know the size of the cushion is important. With this one there are two sizes.

And for the DAS, do you know if its possible to buy or print the adapters somewhere?. I am zero in this 3D printing world.    Thanks in advance. Gracias.

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