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Alonzo
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3 hours ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

There were around 700 Tempest Mk. Vs ever produced, compared with about 5600 Spitfire Mk. IXs, so they were quite 'rare', but then so was 'any LW plane' by 1945, so clearly there can be some artistic licence with plane availability for the sake of a good game.

However, I recall that if all planes are unlimited you tend to see Tempest spam (Just like now you see the majority of fighters are k4s on the axis side, if the map has them). But that may have been because it had just came out.

Although restricting planes is seen as anti-fun, spam is anti-fun too.

 

I'm kind of in favour of having some control over spamming of a particular plane, because it's less fun when all maps are just p51/tempests v k4s and p38 2000lb bombs v 110s. Of course balanced with the fun of the people who like to fly those planes.

 

I think it's a viscious circle sometimes, you go up and see that the other side has all k4s/d9s then you think, ok I'll counter with a tempest/p51. Meanwhile, the guy on the other side sees only Tempests and 150 oct P51s so he's thinking, I'll have to take my souped up k4

At the moment it seems as if only the Tempest has meaningful restrictions on the number of airframes, so I can see how Allied only pilots see that as them having a 'counter' taken away from them.

At the end of the day, online play is competitive, and when people are close in skill every marginal advantage matters. Unlike IRL, when you would be assigned an aircraft and a squadron, in game the only thing limiting what plane people take up is the availability of the plane on the map. The only incentive to take a lower-performing airplane is if you really like to fly it, or for a challenge.

The only way to avoid 'spamming' of high performance planes is to strictly limit them (which means they get spammed for a shorter period) or implement some kind of apportionment system like TAW. But a system like that makes the server less accessible and, at least in TAW's system, basically ensures that the best players are always flying the highest performing fighters, while less experienced or skilled players are functionally 'locked out' of the higher performing planes, which definitely becomes a vicious cycle. 

Anyway I mostly fly the Jug, with occasional forays in the Spit or the Tempest, so for the most part my plane of choice is unlimited and there's always something I like to fly. People who favour the Tempest are obviously not in the same boat.

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@CIA_Elanski Whats with all the anecdotal 'facts' that are being spread in this thread?

Yes the Tempest has a lower G-Limit than most BOBp A/C, Yes if you don't beat your stick like it owes you money your wings will stay right where they belong.

No you don't have to be slower to stay with a LW A/C to turn with it, no you won't black out longer just because 'LW bias'.

All the negatives you just listed are not symptoms of the aircraft, but of pulling your stick to hard. The Tempest, similarly to the Spitfire, just happens to have incredible elevator authority, treat it right, (or limit your dead zones) and none of what you listed will disadvantage you. 

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50 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

The only incentive to take a lower-performing airplane is if you really like to fly it, or for a challenge.

Don't agree, there's history, for example. Some people get off on that, clearly quite a lot as the servers which have a zoo of all the available aircraft.

 

52 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

The only way to avoid 'spamming' of high performance planes is to strictly limit them

That's a bingo.

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Just now, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Don't agree, there's history, for example. Some people get off on that, clearly quite a lot as the servers which have a zoo of all the available aircraft.

 

Well, I guess I just lump that in under really liking the plane.

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1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

Well, I guess I just lump that in under really liking the plane.

And I'd lump 'for the challenge' into why I'd have thought most people play online. It's not as simple as "aww, let everyone fly what they want" otherwise you'd have too many 262s and not enough chromosomes. 

I'm not saying F those guys who inexplicably have a natural affinity with the aircraft that let them get mad high skorz, but there's plenty of maps, why not have a mixture?

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-SF-Disarray

There is a way to limit the top end planes that isn't TAW-esq^tm. I don't know why it didn't occur to me earlier but it has been implemented on this very server for some time. Just treat planes that are top end for the plane set and cause concern of disbalance like 262's. Only let so many spawn in at a time and replenish them slowly over time. Then there will be high end planes available the whole map but the numbers in the air at any one time will be kept at what is deemed an appropriate number. Obviously I don't think they should be kept on as tight a leash as 262's but the method is there and works fine for them, so why not use it to solve this problem too?

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Just now, -SF-Disarray said:

There is a way to limit the top end planes that isn't TAW-esq^tm. I don't know why it didn't occur to me earlier but it has been implemented on this very server for some time. Just treat planes that are top end for the plane set and cause concern of disbalance like 262's. Only let so many spawn in at a time and replenish them slowly over time. Then there will be high end planes available the whole map but the numbers in the air at any one time will be kept at what is deemed an appropriate number. Obviously I don't think they should be kept on as tight a leash as 262's but the method is there and works fine for them, so why not use it to solve this problem too?

That is how some of the airplane supply is set up already AFAIK, a few 'regenerate' every once in a while. The prickly bit is how fast they regenerate, and whether it makes a difference if they are in all at once or trickle out over time. 
 

11 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

And I'd lump 'for the challenge' into why I'd have thought most people play online. It's not as simple as "aww, let everyone fly what they want" otherwise you'd have too many 262s and not enough chromosomes. 

I'm not saying F those guys who inexplicably have a natural affinity with the aircraft that let them get mad high skorz, but there's plenty of maps, why not have a mixture?


I think most people like a challenge where they still feel like they have a good chance of coming out on top - for some of the resident Experten that may mean flying a G-6 against 150 octane Mustangs, for the mere mortals it would mean flying planes of roughly equivalent performance, where the pilot skill is more likely to the be the determining factor. Even for someone who wants a hard fight, it can get extremely frustrating when you feel like you don't stand a fighting chance.

Of course there are always some people who want a 'challenge' but want every possible advantage stacked on their side - and anything less than that is unfair, unhistorical, and proof of a vicious conspiracy by the devs, server admins, the Illuminati and the Lizard People. Best to just ignore these people IMO, they will whine until they get what they want, and if they do get what they want, will continue to whine that no one wants to fly against them when things are stacked in their favour.

Personally I like to see a diversity of plane and mission types, and some early-44 or even 1943 style missions without the super planes are nice, not all the time but one or two in the rotation. Of course some guys don't want to fly without a Mustang or K-4 but life is full of disappointment.

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II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson
2 hours ago, QB.Shallot said:

@CIA_Elanski Whats with all the anecdotal 'facts' that are being spread in this thread?

Yes the Tempest has a lower G-Limit than most BOBp A/C, Yes if you don't beat your stick like it owes you money your wings will stay right where they belong.

No you don't have to be slower to stay with a LW A/C to turn with it, no you won't black out longer just because 'LW bias'.

All the negatives you just listed are not symptoms of the aircraft, but of pulling your stick to hard. The Tempest, similarly to the Spitfire, just happens to have incredible elevator authority, treat it right, (or limit your dead zones) and none of what you listed will disadvantage you. 

 

Bless up. Allied pilots who's "evasive manouvres" are nothing but stirring the stick like it's a kettle of goulash don't fare well on the defensive in the late war planes. It's fun to watch. I'd compile a  video just for a good chortle but I'd rather be flying hahaha

Edited by III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson
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The new damage model has brought some fairly big changes to ground attack, along with updated durability values for all ground object. We're working hard to keep up with the change. Here's what's happening so far:

  • We've updated durability values in order to try to get 'reasonable' outcomes in terms of what is destructible by what ordinance. We're open to feedback if you feel something is off.
  • The Combat Box training server now hosts a "firing range" for each side where you can go blow stuff up and see how easy/difficult it is. If you think something is wrong, test on the firing range (no AA, air spawn nearby, much easier than testing in enemy territory on the main server).
  • Machine guns now do a lot less damage to ground targets, especially those where the gunfire can penetrate and get lost (netting and wooden buildings are good examples). No amount of tweaking seems to alter this.
  • If you want to do ground attack, you pretty much need to bring bombs, rockets, or generous quantities of cannon rounds. If you're in an Allied fighter that only has machine guns, you should limit your ground attacks to fuel dumps, parked planes, and lightweight wooden structures such as control towers. "Netting" style targets such as ammo dumps seem to be quite difficult to destroy with machine guns.
  • Allied aircraft can often equip rockets, and jettison them after use for a small speed penalty. If you want to help your side, rockets are a great way to help. A well-aimed rocket in the front door of a dugout will often take it out, for example.
  • Splash damage seems to be significantly nerfed. The SC1000, for example, seems to do very little unless you score a direct hit. Smaller bombs (in larger quantities) may work better overall than the big bombs. This may be a bug, but it's how it is right now.

We're going to keep an eye on how things are going with the ground war, and we welcome feedback, especially if you've used the firing range for controlled testing. Thanks!

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14 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

...

  • Machine guns now do a lot less damage to ground targets, especially those where the gunfire can penetrate and get lost (netting and wooden buildings are good examples). No amount of tweaking seems to alter this.
  • If you want to do ground attack, you pretty much need to bring bombs, rockets, or generous quantities of cannon rounds. If you're in an Allied fighter that only has machine guns, you should limit your ground attacks to fuel dumps, parked planes, and lightweight wooden structures such as control towers. "Netting" style targets such as ammo dumps seem to be quite difficult to destroy with machine guns.

...

 

Are AA still reasonably vulnerable to machine guns or does it behave like ammo dumps, etc.?

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4 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Personally I like to see a diversity of plane and mission types, and some early-44 or even 1943 style missions without the super planes are nice, not all the time but one or two in the rotation. Of course some guys don't want to fly without a Mustang or K-4 but life is full of disappointment.

 

I agree that its great to see missions in the rotation that aren't stacked with late-war monsters.  Part of the problem you run into though is that if the server is built around Bodenplatte, you can only go back so far before you are potentially excluding a lot of people.  "Frantic" (which I really like) for instance is set in June of 44 on the eastern front and features the G-14, A-8 and D-9 - planes that didn't exist yet or hadn't been deployed to the eastern front yet.  But if you take those out, someone with only Bodenplatte can't play on the Axis side on that map anymore, and what should be the most common axis fighter at that point would be the collector only G-6.  I think Kalinin and Crimea both offer a somewhat similar setup.

 

I'd love to see some sort of Italy 1943 map, but we just don't really have the airplanes for it, and nothing from BoBP would really apply except maybe the Spit 9.

 

One idea as far as limiting the numbers of certain aircraft so they aren't just spammed constantly (150 octane Mustang in particular comes to mind, as it was an ultra common plane from mid-44 onward) would be to leave it available, but only from a rear airfield or airspawn (I know, many hate these, but one of our maps already features one standing in as a front line air base, so clearly they can be used) to simulate 8th AF or Fighter Command Mustangs coming from the UK.

 

 

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CIA_Elanski

Shallot, you make a very good point...easier on the stick.  I have found by being easier on the stick i get PK'd more by the axis.  So a hard break keeps me alive.  Hard breaks equal wing off or black out.  But since i break at least one Warthog stick a year maybe I should learn to be smoother....wait...i've been at this for over 20 years so I guess I will just stick to buying a new stick every year.... :)  good grief.

 

I understand the whole human reaction time thing until they overshoot.  It doesn't take stick stirring.  They follow move, you change move, they try to follow new move with some more lag in their reaction time and you move away in another direction.   But when you are the one in front of the axis plane you have to get out of the way and you do have to turn move.  You cannot take full advantage of the Tempest turn ability or you just black out.  At the pilot graying out stage but not blacked out the enemy are less likely to blackout (they pull inside your turn) and so you either black out, or reverse ya?  So high speed when you are in front does you not much good is all i was saying.  When you are behind your enemy you pick when to turn inside and take the shot.  Any stick stirring with the Tempy at those speed and wings pop off.

 

I watched this re-enactment on the top 10 fights of all time.  A pacific dive bomber was bounced by many zeros.  He did many violent negative G, positive G, rudder stomps and reverses until he got away from them.  Some real life stick stirring.  

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3 hours ago, JimTM said:

 

Are AA still reasonably vulnerable to machine guns or does it behave like ammo dumps, etc.?

 

I haven't explicitly tested it but I'd be surprised if AA/vehicles were less explodey. Previously you just have to sneeze on them and they go kaboom.

 

44 minutes ago, CIA_Elanski said:

But since i break at least one Warthog stick a year maybe I should learn to be smoother....wait...i've been at this for over 20 years so I guess I will just stick to buying a new stick every year.... :)  good grief.

 

Maybe buy yourself a Virpil or VKB if you're really breaking a Warthog every year... 😉 More expensive but they last longer.

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@CIA_Elanski, again, I must be missing something. The G-LOC issues you list are a factor in every aircraft. The Tempest doesn't have some magically lower blackout load. Don't yank at high speeds, problem solved. You'd have the same issues in a Spit, a 190, 109, etc if a bad guy was saddled on your butt. 

 

"At the pilot graying out stage but not blacked out the enemy are less likely to blackout (they pull inside your turn)"

 

Huh? You mean they're more likely to black out, because they have to pull more G's to go inside your turn. Am I missing something again? You can't take the full advantage of any plane (exception to the mustang) at high speeds where the human is the factor. The fact is the Tempest out turns all its threats. The fact that the pilot blacks out at speed is irrelevant. 

Edited by QB.Shallot
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69th_Bazzer
6 hours ago, QB.Shallot said:

@CIA_Elanski, again, I must be missing something. The G-LOC issues you list are a factor in every aircraft. The Tempest doesn't have some magically lower blackout load. Don't yank at high speeds, problem solved. You'd have the same issues in a Spit, a 190, 109, etc if a bad guy was saddled on your butt. 

 

"At the pilot graying out stage but not blacked out the enemy are less likely to blackout (they pull inside your turn)"

 

Huh? You mean they're more likely to black out, because they have to pull more G's to go inside your turn. Am I missing something again? You can't take the full advantage of any plane (exception to the mustang) at high speeds where the human is the factor. The fact is the Tempest out turns all its threats. The fact that the pilot blacks out at speed is irrelevant. 

Elanski has forgotten more about flying combat sims than you will probably ever know. You should pay attention to him instead of trying to lecture him on his stick handling. Also, your 'facts' are wrong, again.

 

109's and 190's have the magic tilted seat which gives an extra ~1G over British planes. The American magic pants give an extra ~2G's. So yes, a 109 can pull inside a Tempest turn without blacking out.

 

For the record, I agree limiting Tempest numbers is appropriate. I just think a few more will help even out a very lopsided balance right now, against the effectively limitless numbers of K4's and D9's.

Edited by 69th_Bazzer
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12 minutes ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

Tempests cannot out-turn 109's in the horizontal at most speeds MP combat occurs at.

 

Sure it can! Especially even more with flaps. 

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1 hour ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

 

109's and 190's have the magic tilted seat which gives an extra ~1G over British planes. 

 

As far as I was aware the only official difference between g tolerance was the USAAF bobp planes and the rest, so spits and 109s should be the same. I mean I've had P51 pilots claim that the physiology model is wrong because a 109 can stay on their 6, so was there anything announced by the dev's or was it a result of observations in game?

Edited by 71st_AH_Barnacles
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39 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

I mean I've had P51 pilots claim that the physiology model is wrong because a 109 can stay on their 6

 

It's fascinating and really amazes me, knowing we have some real battle proven P51 pilots still flying around with us at their high age

and willing to share their expertise to us. Wonderful!

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33 minutes ago, -=-THERION said:

 

It's fascinating and really amazes me, knowing we have some real battle proven P51 pilots still flying around with us at their high age

and willing to share their expertise to us. Wonderful!

Chuck Yeager doesn't play IL2?

 

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1 hour ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Chuck Yeager doesn't play IL2?

 

 

Oh yes, sorry mate, I've forgotten this one...

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=ABr=422nd_RedSkull

Adm's first "genius solutions" to "balance the planeset". Map of Y-29, which was the most balanced in my opinion.

They removed the only AIs that the reds could try to intercept, since the blues have this chance in Mitchells Men.

They removed the 150-octane fuel option and cut half of the Tempest from 32 to 16, with the A-89 base having none left. Congratulations adm, more and more "exciting" flying on the red side.

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2 minutes ago, =ABr=422nd_RedSkull said:

Adm's first "genius solutions" to "balance the planeset". Map of Y-29, which was the most balanced in my opinion.

They removed the only AIs that the reds could try to intercept, since the blues have this chance in Mitchells Men.

They removed the 150-octane fuel option and cut half of the Tempest from 32 to 16, with the A-89 base having none left. Congratulations adm, more and more "exciting" flying on the red side.

 

You're on my ignore list, so I rarely bother even reading your posts anymore, but to clarify: The Ai wave at the start of the Y-29 map is disabled for performance reasons, if there are more than 40 players on the server. I've been told repeatedly by the game devs that I should put less stuff in my maps in order to be kinder to the server. This is one of those things. I can't force them to improve server performance, I can only work with what I've got.

 

We reduced the number of available Tempests because there was an absolutely ridiculous number of them, like 30 or something. At the same time, though, I increased their regeneration rate by 50%, so over the course of a map 30 airframes are available. That is, by far, the most Tempests we have on any map. 150 octane has never been available on Y-29, I haven't changed it.

 

Right. I'm back to working on maps and ignoring your rudeness.

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@69th_Bazzer Again with the anecdotal "facts". It's well known that the supposed German seat tilt does not provide their pilots with an extra G to pull before they black out (in game). To boot, this contradicts with the British seat design, which allowed for the pilots feet to be placed higher than usual which was thought by the British at the time to increase their G-Load, everyone had a trick up their sleeve. 

 

I don't know what game you're playing, but it is plainly clear that the Tempest can out turn any LW aircraft at any practical maneuvering speed (and well below whats considered practical as well). If you're really that hung up about it, you can go test it with a buddy, I mean hell, I'll be your buddy if you want. 

 

Note: sorry to keep bogging the thread with this subject, I'm simply confused as to why hard facts about A/C performance being skewed with...something. Tall tales?

Edited by QB.Shallot
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II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson
26 minutes ago, QB.Shallot said:

@69th_Bazzer Again with the anecdotal "facts". It's well known that the supposed German seat tilt does not provide their pilots with an extra G to pull before they black out (in game). To boot, this contradicts with the British seat design, which allowed for the pilots feet to be placed higher than usual which was thought by the British at the time to increase their G-Load, everyone had a trick up their sleeve. 

 

I don't know what game you're playing, but it is plainly clear that the Tempest can out turn any LW aircraft at any practical maneuvering speed (and well below whats considered practical as well). If you're really that hung up about it, you can go test it with a buddy, I mean hell, I'll be your buddy if you want. 

 

Note: sorry to keep bogging the thread with this subject, I'm simply confused as to why hard facts about A/C performance being skewed with...something. Tall tales?

 

16 hours ago, CIA_Elanski said:

Shallot, you make a very good point...easier on the stick.  I have found by being easier on the stick i get PK'd more by the axis.  So a hard break keeps me alive.  Hard breaks equal wing off or black out.  But since i break at least one Warthog stick a year maybe I should learn to be smoother....wait...i've been at this for over 20 years so I guess I will just stick to buying a new stick every year.... :)  good grief.

 

I understand the whole human reaction time thing until they overshoot.  It doesn't take stick stirring.  They follow move, you change move, they try to follow new move with some more lag in their reaction time and you move away in another direction.   But when you are the one in front of the axis plane you have to get out of the way and you do have to turn move.  You cannot take full advantage of the Tempest turn ability or you just black out.  At the pilot graying out stage but not blacked out the enemy are less likely to blackout (they pull inside your turn) and so you either black out, or reverse ya?  So high speed when you are in front does you not much good is all i was saying.  When you are behind your enemy you pick when to turn inside and take the shot.  Any stick stirring with the Tempy at those speed and wings pop off.

 

I watched this re-enactment on the top 10 fights of all time.  A pacific dive bomber was bounced by many zeros.  He did many violent negative G, positive G, rudder stomps and reverses until he got away from them.  Some real life stick stirring.  

 

7 hours ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

Elanski has forgotten more about flying combat sims than you will probably ever know. You should pay attention to him instead of trying to lecture him on his stick handling. Also, your 'facts' are wrong, again.

 

109's and 190's have the magic tilted seat which gives an extra ~1G over British planes. The American magic pants give an extra ~2G's. So yes, a 109 can pull inside a Tempest turn without blacking out.

 

For the record, I agree limiting Tempest numbers is appropriate. I just think a few more will help even out a very lopsided balance right now, against the effectively limitless numbers of K4's and D9's.

 

There are folks in here that think having a lot of hours or some specific experience in the game equates to having knowledge about the laws of physics hahaha. If you are following a turn and have to pull inside to follow and take a shot, the radius of your arc is smaller, therefore you will pull more G if you are the same speed as your target. If your speed is faster, you'll pull MUCH MORE than your target by a significant degree. The only way you can perform a smaller turn radius than your target and pull less G is if you are at a significantly lower velocity. 

 

As far as the wings coming off of Tempest in high G turns, remember, the Tempest has more wing area than any 109 and more elevator authority at very high speeds by a disproportionately large degree. We can calculate the force at the wing root through an equation which includes the modulus of elasticity and tensile strength of the material at the point of attachment, wing area, and amount of force applied by air during the turn as variables. I'm not going to be wasting my time doing that in an attempt to placate folks who think what they "feel" overrides facts.

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CIA_Elanski

There is a lot of physics talk.  I posted a video to Alonzo of a 109 missing the right wing outer half.  The left wing was broken half way and sticking up like a Corsair bent wing.  It porpoised trying to evade while not stalling or losing the bent up portion of the left wing.  I dont think your physic lessons are all that important to me after what I watch planes do in this flight sim mark

Honestly, I get spun up fairly often about WWII flight sim.  Seriously I take it to seriously.  I love flying and I would miss it horribly.  I would have to go clean the garage or something if I didn't spend so much time in here flying.  

 

What truly amazes me is how admin of servers manage to keep an even keel over the years and stay objective.  I know I'm not.  I'm all in on what I believe and certainly have a very narrow point of view.  So I am not trying to give offense Shallot.  I think sarcasm should be sprinkled on everything.  I have a sarcastic point of view and it gets me through the day :)  makes me laugh.  That don't come across all that well in type especially with old age creepin up on me.  I get cranky and I'll try not to bother you while I make my points.  I take the allied side, I can see what is not "right" for the allied side and don't care much for the axis woes.  I've always been Allied at heart and yes I have flown Axis in all the IL2 game variations.  I expect you to have your beliefs and your opinions and I doubt I would change your mind as with most of the other pilots in here.  

 

Anyway.  Thanks for having a good server.  Thanks for all who work at that and all those who fly.  It's hard to shoot down "enemy" planes if there aint no other planes.  :)

 

 

 

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69th_Bazzer
1 hour ago, QB.Shallot said:

@69th_Bazzer Again with the anecdotal "facts". It's well known that the supposed German seat tilt does not provide their pilots with an extra G to pull before they black out (in game). To boot, this contradicts with the British seat design, which allowed for the pilots feet to be placed higher than usual which was thought by the British at the time to increase their G-Load, everyone had a trick up their sleeve. 

 

I don't know what game you're playing, but it is plainly clear that the Tempest can out turn any LW aircraft at any practical maneuvering speed (and well below whats considered practical as well). If you're really that hung up about it, you can go test it with a buddy, I mean hell, I'll be your buddy if you want. 

 

Note: sorry to keep bogging the thread with this subject, I'm simply confused as to why hard facts about A/C performance being skewed with...something. Tall tales?

48 minutes ago, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

 

 

 

There are folks in here that think having a lot of hours or some specific experience in the game equates to having knowledge about the laws of physics hahaha. If you are following a turn and have to pull inside to follow and take a shot, the radius of your arc is smaller, therefore you will pull more G if you are the same speed as your target. If your speed is faster, you'll pull MUCH MORE than your target by a significant degree. The only way you can perform a smaller turn radius than your target and pull less G is if you are at a significantly lower velocity. 

 

As far as the wings coming off of Tempest in high G turns, remember, the Tempest has more wing area than any 109 and more elevator authority at very high speeds by a disproportionately large degree. We can calculate the force at the wing root through an equation which includes the modulus of elasticity and tensile strength of the material at the point of attachment, wing area, and amount of force applied by air during the turn as variables. I'm not going to be wasting my time doing that in an attempt to placate folks who think what they "feel" overrides facts.

I'm sorry, can you guys point me to your posts with hard game data, and not just your own feelings about relative turn performances? Either I completely missed them, or some classic pot calling kettle black going on here.

 

As far as physics, it is convenient that you ignore critical factors, such as the strength of the wingspans, in your condescending explanation of basic physics. Perhaps you'll explain why a Tempest rated at 12 G max load should break before a 109 rated at 10.5. I can't wait to hear this one...

 

More to the point, it is plain as day you guys are attempting to distract the discussion with a combination of irrelevant minutiae, and attitude. Is the server balanced? If not, what should be changed to address it?

 

Edit: I'm sure you're a great guy Shallot, but I'm not feeling inclined to seek out this opportunity right now.

Edited by 69th_Bazzer
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3 minutes ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

 Perhaps you'll explain why a Tempest rated at 12 G max load should break before a 109 rated at 10.5. I can't wait to hear this one...

 

TBF it could be just as simple as it being a bug; the p38 would shed it's horizontal stabilizer under certain circumstances before they fixed it in the last patch.

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32 minutes ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

I'm sorry, can you guys point me to your posts with hard game data, and not just your own feelings about relative turn performances?

 

One option could be to enable TacView recording on your game client (see TacView website for how to do this) then set up some dogfight situations with a friend and record the session. TacView will show speeds, g-loads, rates of turn, all sorts. Maybe do a few drills such as "bounced by a bandit", don't bother with actually shooting each other, and record a bunch of data for later analysis. The Combat Box training server has a duelling zone which you can use for this sort of thing, and it has icons on so you can more easily track your opponent and worry about maneuvering rather than pixel peeping.

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36 minutes ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

Perhaps you'll explain why a Tempest rated at 12 G max load should break before a 109 rated at 10.5. I can't wait to hear this one...

 

Did you take into account it's impossible to reach very high Gs (I mean 10G and more) with a 109 due to the low elevator authority at high speed? :coffee:

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2 hours ago, =ABr=422nd_RedSkull said:

Adm's first "genius solutions" to "balance the planeset". Map of Y-29, which was the most balanced in my opinion.

They removed the only AIs that the reds could try to intercept, since the blues have this chance in Mitchells Men.

They removed the 150-octane fuel option and cut half of the Tempest from 32 to 16, with the A-89 base having none left. Congratulations adm, more and more "exciting" flying on the red side.

It’s clear you are an underappreciated mission design and server admin genius. You should run a server yourself, I’m sure it would be very easy.

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II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson
1 hour ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

I'm sorry, can you guys point me to your posts with hard game data, and not just your own feelings about relative turn performances? Either I completely missed them, or some classic pot calling kettle black going on here.

 

As far as physics, it is convenient that you ignore critical factors, such as the strength of the wingspans, in your condescending explanation of basic physics. Perhaps you'll explain why a Tempest rated at 12 G max load should break before a 109 rated at 10.5. I can't wait to hear this one...

 

More to the point, it is plain as day you guys are attempting to distract the discussion with a combination of irrelevant minutiae, and attitude. Is the server balanced? If not, what should be changed to address it?

 

Edit: I'm sure you're a great guy Shallot, but I'm not feeling inclined to seek out this opportunity right now.

 

Where in the equation would the strength of the wing not be considered? A wing is an unsupported cantilever. It's not simple physics, it's actually a bit complex. The variables would be the modulus of elasticity, moment of inertia, and tensile strength of material, shape and thickness of the supporting material, force applied against the cantilevers and a few others. It would figure the reaction, maximum moment, and deflection along with force applied at the fixed end of the cantilevers. Like I said, it's not very basic. Any quality modeller and programmer would take all these things into consideration and run a design study on the finished model in order to make this an accurate representation of the plane.

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My goodness, so many feels in this thread (and physics professors!).  I'll try to stick to clearing Elanski's 12 as usual :)

 

What Ski is trying to say is that there is no difference in turn rate in different planes, unless you are at slow speed.  Since the G-tolerance update, if someone is on your tail it doesn't matter who has higher elevator authority or energy retention in a turn if you're going high speed, you're going to black out long before either comes into play.  The only time this makes a difference is at slow speed, which if you're there then you're dead meat to the next guy blowing through with 30mils.  I've had plenty of 190's stick with me in turns in the uber spit, simply because if I pulled any harder I would black out.

 

We could continue the arguments about who has the better fighters and easier maps, but it is quite easy to see who is winning by looking at the stats page. I'll leave that to the resident statisticians.

 

@Alonzo

 

I'd wager my copy of the game that the reason .50's are so much less effective at killing everything is because the devs removed the HE component to them.  While historically accurate, until this game can calculate JFK bullets with every screw on an airframe, HE and AoE weapons will be king.  Because every game uses hitboxes and RNG to determine damage, AoE weapons will get far more chances per round hit to create critical damage.  Combine that with the fact that apparently they didn't even model the API round...?  It honestly sounds like straight trolling on their part. 

 

I eagerly await Mark's absolutely authoritative response that you cannot destroy ammo boxes or cans of fuel with .50 cal API/API-T rounds :)

 

There is precedent for this; the devs in 1946 tried the exact same thing.. with the same results.  What resulted was a massive decrease in the effectiveness of .50 cal rounds, despite them swearing up and down they had "increased penetration, etc etc."  Lighting Zeros on fire was difficult after the fact, much less shooting down 190's.

 

But I digress.  Maybe replacing those types of targets with things that can actually be strafed, such as trucks, will help even things out until the devs break the game again.  Hopefully, less static objects will improve performance, as i've noticed a large increase in CB's stuttering since the update.

 

Cheers

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II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson
3 hours ago, thatguy said:

 

I eagerly await Mark's absolutely authoritative response that you cannot destroy ammo boxes or cans of fuel with .50 cal API/API-T rounds :)

 

 

Would it be safe for me to assume that this is sarcasm? Lol

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69th_Bazzer

I got to spend a couple hours in the training server today looking at different ordinance on bunkers, and it was very eye opening!

 

First, I sincerely apologize for my argument about 110's and 190's strafing bunkers too effectively. It was based on pre-4.005 experience, and it is simply no longer true. It took most of the ammo in a 110, 190, or a Tempy to kill a single bunker. Strafing is clearly not how Axis has the upper hand right now.

 

As far as bombs, @Alonzo I think you are on exactly the right track. I found 50kg bombs on the 110, and 100kg bombs on the A-20, to be about as effective as 500lb, 500kg, 1000lb, and even 2000lb ordinance. I couldn't kill more than one bunker in a line or group with the 2000 lb, but I could waste a line of 4 bunkers with a stick of 4x50kg or 100kg. 

 

I saved a bunch of tracks if anyone wants them.

 

Time permitting, I would love to test out the turning argument on the training server too. However, a superior turning radius and/or rate isn't making Allies lose maps at more than a 2:1 rate, so I'll probably be focused on that for the time being.

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II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson
7 minutes ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

 

Time permitting, I would love to test out the turning argument on the training server too. However, a superior turning radius and/or rate isn't making Allies lose maps at more than a 2:1 rate, so I'll probably be focused on that for the time being.

 

Im constantly in a 109 or 190 and I've never been able to actually out turn any of the allied planes except at very low speeds in the 109s. The 190 does have one of the better instantaneous turn rates at high speeds but it loses that after only a few seconds as the high wing loading prevents prolonged turning at that rate. We also have to remember that turning radius is always relative to speed. For example, the 262 has a faster turn rate than almost all the prop planes at very high speeds, but because it's going significantly faster, the total turn radius is much larger. 

 

My perspective is this; if you are in an allied aircraft and turning hard when you are hit by someone on your six, it's very likely not because they are able to turn better than you; it's much more probable that they simply predicted your move and were able to lead your anticipated movement. I've done this many times. When an allied pilot is flying unpredictably, changing their vectors every split second, and slipping along the longitudinal axis, I badly struggle to hit them. But when I'm on their six and they are in a 5-10 degree bank looking over their should at me, I just fly 10-15 degrees off their wing in the direction of their bank and as soon as they roll to break, I fire, and they fly right into my shots. I turn with the enemy probably only 1 out of 10 times; but almost every time I hit someone with guns, it's while they are turning hard but I'm not.

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I would just like to take this opportunity to tell Alonzo and the combat box team how much I enjoy the server and what a good job I think you are doing.  I would also like to say again that even though I think some very good suggestions have been put forth for improvements, I still believe you should ignore all of them and just keep doing what you have been doing.  it works.  there are some aspects I don't necessarily like, but on balance,  you are doing an excellent job at creating missions, and achieving a historical feel to the maps.  thanks.

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10 hours ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

I got to spend a couple hours in the training server today looking at different ordinance on bunkers, and it was very eye opening!

 

First, I sincerely apologize for my argument about 110's and 190's strafing bunkers too effectively. It was based on pre-4.005 experience, and it is simply no longer true. It took most of the ammo in a 110, 190, or a Tempy to kill a single bunker. Strafing is clearly not how Axis has the upper hand right now.

 

As far as bombs, @Alonzo I think you are on exactly the right track. I found 50kg bombs on the 110, and 100kg bombs on the A-20, to be about as effective as 500lb, 500kg, 1000lb, and even 2000lb ordinance. I couldn't kill more than one bunker in a line or group with the 2000 lb, but I could waste a line of 4 bunkers with a stick of 4x50kg or 100kg. 

 

I saved a bunch of tracks if anyone wants them.

 

Time permitting, I would love to test out the turning argument on the training server too. However, a superior turning radius and/or rate isn't making Allies lose maps at more than a 2:1 rate, so I'll probably be focused on that for the time being.

I've been testing on those ranges, my findings so far, support what you've found: Best loadouts for bunker destruction. Anything can kill 1 bunker per bomb, even if it's as small as a SD70. Generally no bombs can destroy more than 1 bunker. Rockets, the FW190's R.Sprgr rockets can kill a bunker for every 4 rockets, so you can kill 3 bunkers in total. Allied rockets can kill 1 bunker for every 2, so you can kill 3 with the rockets and 1 for every bomb you can carry, So a p47 can kill 6 bunkers, and the p38 and p51 5 each. Everything else it's a matter of how many bombs you can carry, so an A8 can theoretically take out 8 bunkers. For tanks, I found it's better to take rockets than bombs, as even though rockets take a bit of practice, it's possible to get more consistent with them than bombs at killing tanks. As for the larger buildings, a single 50 won't kill them, 2 x 250lb will, generally so the bigger bombs aren't totally redundant.

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We are happy to announce Project R! In the past few weeks the team has been working on bringing air racing into IL2. For the start we have prepared four tracks on the Kuban map using towers with colored smoke as gates. The tracks will vary in length and agility, and some have straight segments with flak shooting at you. We plan to host many different performance classes from Ishaks to jets.

Upon launch we will provide a collection of racing skins. Feel free to make your own & add to the collection! Project R will launch during the Sturmovikfest. Kick the tires, light the fires, LET'S GO!

 

 

Edited by Mordrac
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TCW_Welsh78

Hi guys,  can anyone point me in the right direction in regards to joining an Axis fighter squadron? A team that plays regular, preferably GMT nights? 
 

I’m a fairly experienced pilot (670 hours) mainly on the WOL servers. Looking to progress to a more authentic experience. 
 

Thank you,

 

WelshWarrior. 

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