Tempest Mark V research

[blockheadgreen_]

The sound of the Sabre is something important that has to be done right, I feel. Unfortunately this video, and one other recording (of a Typhoon taxying) are all there is in terms of reference:

 

 

[BraveSirRobin]

26 minutes ago, Lythronax said:

The sound of the Sabre is something important that has to be done right, I feel. Unfortunately this video, and one other recording (of a Typhoon taxying) are all there is in terms of reference:

 

 

 

If that's the only video then the sound isn't really that important.  You know, because there isn't much evidence to prove whether it's right or wrong.

[blockheadgreen_]

22 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

If that's the only video then the sound isn't really that important.  You know, because there isn't much evidence to prove whether it's right or wrong.

 

It's important as the Sabre was completely unique, with an ear-splitting exhaust note yet also a throaty growl and the "whoosh" of a sleeve valve engine. That video featuring some of the only recordings made makes it useful.

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, Lythronax said:

 

It's important as the Sabre was completely unique, with an ear-splitting exhaust note yet also a throaty growl and the "whoosh" of a sleeve valve engine. That video featuring some of the only recordings made makes it useful.

 

You seem to be missing the point.  The fact that there is very little evidence of what the engine actually sounded like means that you won't really know if they got it right or wrong.

[MiloMorai]

Lots of Sabre sound in this video, 

 

[bzc3lk]

 

[Talon_]

On 6/29/2019 at 2:24 AM, BraveSirRobin said:

 

If that's the only video then the sound isn't really that important.  You know, because there isn't much evidence to prove whether it's right or wrong.

 

 

 

[AlexVoicu]

On 10/7/2018 at 4:26 AM, Lythronax said:

An important detail that most get wrong is the control column. The Tempest V series one had pneumatically fired Hispano II cannon, whilst the series two model (the one we’re getting) possessed electric Hispano Vs.

 

You all know that, but 3D modellers build their Tempest V S2s with the classic Hurricane/Typhoon (Dunlop AH2040) control column, which has a pneumatic pushbutton.

 

 

But, an accurate Series II should feature a later electric Dunlop AH8400 grip (which has a three position gunbutton, which would allow for the seperate inner and outer pair firing that has been described)

 

 

Do you have any images of this control column actually installed in a Tempest? It looks like a Sea fury control column to me.

I went through all my collection of Tempest images but i couldn't find a single one showing this type of control column, not even for the Mk II or the TT 5 (target tug) that were used after the war. I found pictures of 2 existing mk V series 2 airframes (NV778 and EJ693), both have the classic oval shaped Dunlop control column.
Regarding the pushbutton, the pilots notes for  Tempest Mk V series 1, post-war Mk II and Mk VI are clearly stating that the pneumatic system is used for firing the cannons. I would be very surprised if Mk V series 2 would be the only one with electrical firing cannons.


 

[ZachariasX]

22 minutes ago, AlexVoicu said:

Regarding the pushbutton, the pilots notes for  Tempest Mk V series 1, post-war Mk II and Mk VI are clearly stating that the pneumatic system is used for firing the cannons. I would be very surprised if Mk V series 2 would be the only one with electrical firing cannons.

It is indeed pneumatic. You lose pressure in that system, you can't fire your guns.

[blockheadgreen_]

 

Some Sabre and RP-3 sounds here.

[PainGod85]

So since we were told the Tempest had been released to the testers, I figured it's time to think about the different mods that might come with it.

 

For one, I'd like to be able to get different kinds of engine ratings for different eras of the war - early to mid-44 with the Sabre IIA at +9 lb, and for late '44 the Sabre IIB at +11 lb. Hopefully there'll be a 150 octane fuel mod as well for +13 lb.

 

Regarding the ammunition count, the lowest possible amount should be 150 RPG, with 200 RPG and 253/260 (outer/inner pair of guns) RPG as mods for higher endurance, reflecting the encounter reports @Talon_ dug up in here a few months back (1026 rounds expended in one sortie, was it?).

 

Additionally, RP-3 rails and an assortment of bombs would round out the armament catalogue.

 

As much as I'd love to have the option for a GGS, Wikipedia says it was only supplied on the Tempest II, and a quick online search didn't net me any information to the contrary.

[Talisman]

 

Napier Power Heritage Trust

 

If anyone wants Tempest engine information then the contact below for the Napier Power Heritage Trust might be a good one:

 

http://www.npht.org/contact/4577703113

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[ZachariasX]

23 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

Hopefully there'll be a 150 octane fuel mod as well for +13 lb.

+13 lbs boost / 4000 rpm was on 130 octane.

 

23 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

As much as I'd love to have the option for a GGS, Wikipedia says it was only supplied on the Tempest II, and a quick online search didn't net me any information to the contrary.

The gyro gunsight was never fitted to the Mk.V. Pilots ddn't mind, as as vision from the cockpit was much better with screen projection.

Edited August 18, 2019 by ZachariasX

[PainGod85]

4 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

+13 lbs boost / 4000 rpm was on 130 octane.

 

On the Sabre IIB?

[ZachariasX]

8 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

On the Sabre IIB?

Yes. It appears to me that the progression over the different engine types was more gradual as stated in the booklets. You had to break a wire by pushing the throttle through the gate. Pilots notes don’t state such. The Sabre reached in service all (even much higher ratings) on the regular fuel. For speed trials during V1 interception, IIRC they tried 150 octane at some point, but with no significant upsides. I only find operational references for those boost settings on late series II planes that came with the Rotol propeller factory installed. AFAIR that propeller was required to make most use of the extra power.

[PainGod85]

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Yes. It appears to me that the progression over the different engine types was more gradual as stated in the booklets. You had to break a wire by pushing the throttle through the gate. Pilots notes don’t state such. The Sabre reached in service all (even much higher ratings) on the regular fuel. For speed trials during V1 interception, IIRC they tried 150 octane at some point, but with no significant upsides. I only find operational references for those boost settings on late series II planes that came with the Rotol propeller factory installed. AFAIR that propeller was required to make most use of the extra power.

 

From what I've read, the new prop was required because the old one tended to shed blades with the higher boosts and RPMs.

[MiloMorai]

Beamont stated that he got 415mph @ 500ft using 150 while chasing V-1s (no dive). Not sure what prop his Tempest had.

[ZachariasX]

AFAIK Rotols were not used sooner than March 45 on the third batch of Tempest V. I have not seen any pics of Rotols on earlier Tempests so far. So I’m sure Beaumont had the standard one.

[Chief_Mouser]

Coffman starter cartridges. Do you think that the devs will model anything appertaining to the problems the Tempest had with these? Apparently the engine wasn't always easy to start (due to the cartridge not really being powerful enough). After three failed attempts the engine had to be switched off. Wasn't that something that happened in RoF - the three strikes and you're out? Don't suppose we'll see engine fires though... no way to put them out!

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, Red_Cat said:

Coffman starter cartridges. Do you think that the devs will model anything appertaining to the problems the Tempest had with these? Apparently the engine wasn't always easy to start (due to the cartridge not really being powerful enough). After three failed attempts the engine had to be switched off. Wasn't that something that happened in RoF - the three strikes and you're out? Don't suppose we'll see engine fires though... no way to put them out!

Coffman starters are no problem at all (besides requiring you having the ammo for it ready). The Spit Mk.II had a Coffman starter system. You just had 3 charges installed. If you failed to get the engine going, your mechanic har to reload new cartritges. Same is with the Tempests. You're not "out" after three "strikes", you need a new "mag".

[Chief_Mouser]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

Coffman starters are no problem at all (besides requiring you having the ammo for it ready). The Spit Mk.II had a Coffman starter system. You just had 3 charges installed. If you failed to get the engine going, your mechanic har to reload new cartritges. Same is with the Tempests. You're not "out" after three "strikes", you need a new "mag".

 

'If the engine did not start after three cartridges fired, it was switched off and the engine blown out to clear it and if it failed to start after fifteen priming strokes, the cylinders were primed with oil.' - Hawker Typhoon & Tempest by Philip Birtles, chapter 'Pilot's Notes'.

What's 'blown out'? Sounds like more than chucking some more cartridges in.

Don't suppose we're going to see it whatever it is, although the devs did make the Me262 more complex than other aircraft.

 

PS The Chipmunk used a Coffman starter and it didn't always work with that poky little engine.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Red_Cat

[ZachariasX]

11 hours ago, Red_Cat said:

 

'If the engine did not start after three cartridges fired, it was switched off and the engine blown out to clear it and if it failed to start after fifteen priming strokes, the cylinders were primed with oil.' - Hawker Typhoon & Tempest by Philip Birtles, chapter 'Pilot's Notes'.

What's 'blown out'? Sounds like more than chucking some more cartridges in.

Don't suppose we're going to see it whatever it is, although the devs did make the Me262 more complex than other aircraft.

 

PS The Chipmunk used a Coffman starter and it didn't always work with that poky little engine.

 

These are cordite cartridges (essentially gun cartridges without a slug) , hence they will deposit some of the burnt material in the engine if the engine doesn’t start. If you cannot start your engine after three tries, you will most likely have drowned the engine as well (besides accumulating powder residues) and chances for a start get slimmer with every new try. When you clear the engine (of everything) with compressed air, some of the lubrication will be gone as well. I suppose sleeve valves especially don‘t like that, so you better spray oil in the engine first and crank it before you start playing with the cartridges again.

[ZachariasX]

A famous Coffman startup:

Spoiler

 

 

[Chief_Mouser]

Quote

A famous Coffman startup:

 

Ah yes, a great film. Love Ronald Fraser jumping up and down like a kid - I bet he was knackered when they finished! Shame the plane crashed though

[Sokol1]

Stunt pilot Paul Mantz die in a crash with the "Phoenix" made for the original (1965) "Flight of Phoenix":

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Sokol1

[MiloMorai]

13 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

 

These are cordite cartridges (essentially gun cartridges without a slug) , hence they will deposit some of the burnt material in the engine if the engine doesn’t start. If you cannot start your engine after three tries, you will most likely have drowned the engine as well (besides accumulating powder residues) and chances for a start get slimmer with every new try. When you clear the engine (of everything) with compressed air, some of the lubrication will be gone as well. I suppose sleeve valves especially don‘t like that, so you better spray oil in the engine first and crank it before you start playing with the cartridges again.

The Coffman was a separate engine.

 

In one of my Typhoon/Tempest books it says 6 tries and then all the spark plugs have to be pulled and oil squirted into each cylinder as the excess fuel has washed all the oil away.

[Talisman]

Very informative read regarding the Tempest here: 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tempest-Over-Europe-Roland-Beaumont/dp/1853104523
  
Note that the author states that 150 grade Octane fuel and 416 mph ASI at sea level gave Tempest pilots the edge and confident advantage in the hard-fighting winter of 1944. 
This is more proof that we should have historically accurate 150 Octane fuel and the resulting Tempest V performance to help counter the Me 262 which is historically included for the Axis in the upcoming BoPB.  
Lets hope that Allied technical advances are included in BoBP as they are for the Axis. 
Also of interest, is the demonstrating of the Tempest V to VIP audiences, including visiting Russian generals on 30th August 1944.  Can any beta testers replicate this?

545 mph dive limit and still fully manoeuvrable looks good too!

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by 56RAF_Talisman

[JtD]

2 minutes ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Note that the author states that 150 grade Octane fuel and 416 mph ASI at sea level gave Tempest pilots the edge and confident advantage in the hard-fighting winter of 1944.

 

He might be quoting testing figures. It's no operational confirmation. It would still be nice to have in game, though 11lb are more important imho.

 

(430 mph for the Bf109G-6 is off.)

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

All the test data on the Tempest with +11lbs give the sea level speed in the region of ~390 mph

[Talisman]

32 minutes ago, JtD said:

 

He might be quoting testing figures. It's no operational confirmation. It would still be nice to have in game, though 11lb are more important imho.

 

(430 mph for the Bf109G-6 is off.)

I might have agreed with you if he had not clearly stated that this performance edge and resulting confidence was part of the hard fighting of winter 1944.  Also, I would not expect the Axis aircraft figures to be exact as we are possibly talking captured aircraft and second hand information on Axis aircraft and he does not indicate that he actually flew the Axis aircraft.  However, his credentials for giving us details on the Tempest V are impeccable.  He is not just any pilot.  The link below gives an idea of his credentials.  I would not expect this book to provide definitive details regarding Axis aircraft and would expect such details to be open to correction, but I would expect to be on very solid ground regarding details in this book regarding the Tempest V.  It is the Tempest V that the author is an expert and an authority on, not Axis aircraft. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Beamont

Edited September 23, 2019 by 56RAF_Talisman

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Re-thinking about it, if the author is talking about winter conditions, 416 mph at Sea level with high boost doesn't sound that off..

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by =362nd_FS=RoflSeal

[ICDP]

38 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

Re-thinking about it, if the author is talking about winter conditions, 416 mph at Sea level with high boost doesn't sound that off..

 

 

True but bear in mind LW aircraft also obey the laws of thermodynamics and would get a similar boost.  I tested various aircraft in sim and get 10 - 40 kph extra than during autumn/spring.

 

K4 with DC engine did 653kph (406 mph) at SL on winter map.

A8 did 606kph on winter map

D9 did 614kph (not as big an increase).

Edited September 23, 2019 by ICDP

[MiloMorai]

1 hour ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

Re-thinking about it, if the author is talking about winter conditions, 416 mph at Sea level with high boost doesn't sound that off..

 

Beamont got 415mph IAS  while chasing V1s, so a summer map.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

16 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Beamont got 415mph IAS  while chasing V1s, so a summer map.

By usually diving on them

[MiloMorai]

Just now, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

By usually diving on them

No, level flight.

[JtD]

As said elsewhere, it's IAS. At 400 the Tempest manual gives a 22mph position error correction. Trend: Increasing as speed goes up. So 416 IAS is 394 TAS at most, and that's perfectly plausible.

[Dallas88B]

On 1/5/2018 at 12:34 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

That was actually a mix-up of miscommunications by the third party artist who created the Tempest (it was a fan project for him) and Maddox Games implementation. It had mostly to do with the height at which the pilot sat in the cockpit. This is from before the days of the 6DOF cockpits.

 

I suspect that 1CGS won't make the mistake and we're already able to adjust our viewpoint in this sim without trouble anyways.

@ShamrockOneFiveI would be interested in your thoughts about the rear view from IL2 Bodenplatte's Tempest V,  now that the patch is out.....I am pretty surprised at the lack of vision out the back and am wondering if its something wrong with my setup given your comment about adjusting our viewpoint. 

Is the game view fairly accurate to what the Tempest was like?

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Dallas88B said:

@ShamrockOneFiveI would be interested in your thoughts about the rear view from IL2 Bodenplatte's Tempest V,  now that the patch is out.....I am pretty surprised at the lack of vision out the back and am wondering if its something wrong with my setup given your comment about adjusting our viewpoint. 

Is the game view fairly accurate to what the Tempest was like?

 

The in-game model is as accurate as you are ever going to find, so I'd check your camera settings. 

[Dallas88B]

In case anyone is reading this... I am using Opentrack and the Delan Clip for head tracking. I made some setting changes to Relative Translation and Neck displacement. Now can 'look over my shoulder" around the edge of the shield (located behind the pilots head) and down past the tail on both starboard and port. Thanks to @BlackHellHound1 for the excellent thread A complete guide to set up Head-tracking (Opentrack) here 

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

6 hours ago, Dallas88B said:

@ShamrockOneFiveI would be interested in your thoughts about the rear view from IL2 Bodenplatte's Tempest V,  now that the patch is out.....I am pretty surprised at the lack of vision out the back and am wondering if its something wrong with my setup given your comment about adjusting our viewpoint. 

Is the game view fairly accurate to what the Tempest was like?

 

I've been too busy blasting things on infront and sailing past at 350mph to look behind me ?

 

Jokes aside, my impression is positive. The headrest was bigger than the one on the Mustang and so the view is a little less. You may need to adjust the default view a bit more forward (F10 key) and you should get a better view out the back.