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Tempest Mark V research


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On 8/23/2018 at 12:06 AM, VO101Kurfurst said:

Indeed its time to put the speculation to rest. No evidence could be provided for use of +11 lbs boost between 28th September 1944 and 1st January 1945.

 

When you have something, please do post it. Until then, stop speculating.

 

1)A portion of 2nd Batch with EJ*** series number was equipped with Sabre IIB engine which always has 11 lbs boost on 100/130 fuel.

2) All of 2nd batch production joined the war before 1st Jan 1945.

 

Futhermore, NV715 (3rd batch) had a victory on on 23 Jan 1945, NV715 is the 63rd A/C of the 3rd batch,  with 12 A/C production rate,  the first NV639 was five weeks earlier,  obviously joined the war no later than middle December 1944.

23 Jan Bf109 1 486 S/L A.E. Umbers SA- (NV715) Rheine

Another reference, 

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/survivors/2015-01-19-19-22-20/nv7783

 

Nv778 joined army on 26 Jan 1945, while NV772 had a victory on 1 Feb 1945, so  NV772-778 joined the war on later than late January 1945.

1 Feb Fw190 1 274 F/L W.J. Hibbert JJ-M (NV772) Rheine area

 

NV778 is 49 after NV715, 4 weeks time gap, NV 715 probably joined the war late December 1944, then NV 639 was no later than late November  1944.

 

Conclusion: More than 60 Tempests of 3rd batch(With NV***) joined the war before 1st January 1945.

 

Edited by No.41_Glen
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 Do you have the record of A/C series numbers for all tempest Squadrons before 1945? Picture and text record are OK. I believe with the series number and production rate, we can figure out the service time frame of several production batches.

 

Pay attention to these A/C In late 1944,  

EJ800-EJ846, EJ859-EJ896 (probably 11lbs boost)

NV639-NV682, NV695-NV735 (definitely 11lbs boost)

 

@Talon_ @56RAF_Talisman

Edited by No.41_Glen
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I'll be honest from a purely gameplay perspective if we only get one Tempest it makes sense to go with an SN bird for the drop tanks. Alternatively some modified historicity would be okay with me in allowing drop tanks on whatever earlier model we get.

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4 hours ago, No.41_Glen said:

Pay attention to these A/C In late 1944,  

EJ800-EJ846, EJ859-EJ896 (probably 11lbs boost)

NV639-NV682, NV695-NV735 (definitely 11lbs boost)

 

@Talon_ @56RAF_Talisman

For what it's worth, the aircraft appendix of 'The Wild Winds' (a history of 486sqn) shows only one aircraft arriving in the squadron within those serial number ranges in late '44:
EJ828 arrived from 83 GSU on 6/11/44.

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26 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

I'll be honest from a purely gameplay perspective if we only get one Tempest it makes sense to go with an SN bird for the drop tanks. Alternatively some modified historicity would be okay with me in allowing drop tanks on whatever earlier model we get.

 

SN series deliveries began deliveries 1.45 but didn't reach squadrons till 5.45.

 

NV639 didn't arrive at #274 til 2.45.

 

The Hawker Typhoon and Tempest / Mason

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Looks like modification from Series I to Series II was pretty quick - Series I seen here just after D-Day but the spring tab on the far left back corner of the starboard aileron is clearly visible

9150d2683c255c0ecd1612fbe8c5b1b5.jpg

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56 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

 

SN series deliveries began deliveries 1.45 but didn't reach squadrons till 5.45.

 

NV639 didn't arrive at #274 til 2.45.

 

The Hawker Typhoon and Tempest / Mason

 

So there was extra delay with NV*** from UK to battlefield, this was reasonable when front line squadrons didn't suffer heavy loss in air combat or by Flak, no need to replace old A/C.


It seems in late 1944 only late EJ*** arrived battlefield, we don't know how many of them equipped with Sabre IIB.

3 hours ago, NZTyphoon said:

From Francis K. Mason Hawker Aircraft Since 1920

1-Tempest spring013.jpg

1-Tempest spring012.jpg

1-Tempest spring014.jpg

 

Still no stories about EJ828 and NV715.

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59 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

These are 1944 colours

The image is supposedly from August 1944, No.501.

 

Regarding colors: This is Clostermann briefing his pilots for the mission, No.3 Squadron, probably April 1945:

Royal_Air_Force-_2nd_Tactical_Air_Force,

 

Classic image, 274 Sqn. Tempests in April 1945 taking off from B.91 Kluis, most likely Rotol propellers I'd say:

274sqdn-tempest.jpg

 

 

An hour before he left the airfield and the RAF, a (last) photo of Clostermann and his last Tempest

legrandcharles.jpg

It doesn't look like the Rotol propeller, or is it?

 

Edited by ZachariasX
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5 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Regarding colors: This is Clostermann briefing his pilots for the mission, No.3 Squadron, probably April 1945:

Royal_Air_Force-_2nd_Tactical_Air_Force,

1

 

https://www.classicwarbirds.co.uk/articles/the-history-of-invasion-stripes.php

 

image.png.74193ef41575c3dff1524cc14b7dc8d9.png

 

In January 1945, 2TAF were ordered to change the colour scheme of their aircraft to black prop spinners, paint out the "sky" band around the waistline and repaint the upper wing roundels with the same "C1" roundel from the fuselage, seen here on Clostermann's aircraft:

 

Image result for hawker tempest pierre clostermann

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force_roundels

 

image.png.3d68515014000b6e35e4267aaea315f1.pngimage.png.99a8abb53041dd42a331b94645693c93.png

 

Clostermann didn't set foot on Volkel until the aircraft were repainted, that image can't be accurate.

 

Also, it's captioned as the following: "Squadron Leader A S Dredge, Officer Commanding No. 3 Squadron RAF, briefs his pilots for a sweep over the Caen area, on the elevator of a Hawker Tempest Mark V, 'JF-M' at Newchurch, Kent. IWM CH18814"

 

here: https://newchurchvillage.org/history/newchurch-ww2/squadron-photo-gallery/3-squadron/

 

 

 

 

 

 

HAWKER TEMPEST PHOTO DATING GUIDE:

 

D-Day 1944 - August 1944:

Invasion stripes on top and bottom surfaces, Sky band and Sky spinner:

 

 

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.2c87388608718ec2c0079a0af66d1941.png

 

September 1944 - December 1944:

Partial invasion stripes, Sky spinner, Sky band

 

Spoiler

image.png.1bade2d018edc598cb161578120307a7.png

 

Image result for hawker tempest

 

 

 

 

January-May 1945:

Type C1 upper roundels, no invasion stripes. Painted-out Sky band, variable non-sky prop spinner (ordered black, squadrons took liberties).

 

Spoiler

image.png.916568d598288a38d327f936874dd316.png

 

WRONG SCHEMES THAT PROBABLY NEVER FLEW IN 2TAF:

 

Accurate, but only of A.D.G.B squadrons back in Britain without yellow roundel surroundings or postwar aircraft on the continent:

 

Spoiler

Image result for hawker tempest

 

Clostermann didn't fly Tempests on D-Day

 

Spoiler

Image result for hawker tempest

 

 

1944 roundels with no sky band and painted spinners. Totally wrong: 

 

Spoiler

Image result for clostermann tempest

 

 

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1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

Looks like modification from Series I to Series II was pretty quick - Series I seen here just after D-Day but the spring tab on the far left back corner of the starboard aileron is clearly visible

That's not the spring tab - that's the fixed trim tab. Spring tabs are way larger, deeper, and located pretty much in the middle of the trailing edge of the aileron.

 

2 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

SN series deliveries began deliveries 1.45 but didn't reach squadrons till 5.45. 

Can't be true. A. Seager was flying SN130 when he claimed a 190 damaged on 22 March 45, for example.

 

1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

In fact forget what I said, drop tanks could clearly be retrofitted or the book is inaccurate. These are 1944 colours

The drop tanks were first tested in june 44 on JN 730 (second production aircraft). They were for sure standard on all EJXXX aicrafts, and probably on all series II.

 

 

And at the risk of repeating myself, the serial numbers don't give you any info on what engine is used.

Edited by Quinte
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unreasonable

I love this forum. :)  

 

You can see why the RAF decided to get rid of the sky band - given that the Germans were using a variety of units specific bands on fighters by 1945, it makes sense just to say shoot at anything with a tail band.  Not sure why the change of spinner colour though.

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ACG_Talisman

This is a great forum thread folks :))

Very enjoyable, with lots of good educational research and historical information on an aircraft sometimes overlooked. 

I think the Tempest V was the pinnacle for the Hawker Aircraft Company during the War.

Keep up the good work.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

I know that, but he took that image in the new edition of his book, even identified himself with an arrow:

Spoiler

Closterman1010.jpg

This is weird. He got his first "Grand Charles" on his 24th birthday, so that was Feb. 28th when he also was handed command of No.3 and given that aircraft. He referring to is as "one of the new engines with 2'950 hp and Rotol propeller". Clould it be that this JF-M did not get his invasion stripes washed off by that time? JF-E certainly didn't have those stripes.

 

During the patrols on the invasion beach, they surely had those, here, JF-Z, supposedly parked in Newchurch, Kent:

Spoiler

aircraft-of-the-royal-air-force-1939-194

 

 

The spinner was not "white", the paint color was officially called "duck egg", it has a slight greenish and blueish tint to it. It comes in many variations though.

Spoiler

a0d07b5b-625c-4f72-9c18-b9baf3484b97.jpg

 

Personal repaints (like a red spinner) were illegal, but it was obviously not the first thing that got policed in the field.

 

There are more funny references:

Here, a "Tempest VB" of 486 Sqn., JN805:

flat,1000x1000,075,f.jpg

C1 roundels, no stripes and no band around the tail.

 

Now, what could make this an Tempest Vb, same as Clostermann is talking about his late tempest supposedly was. Sabre IIc?

 

Looking at another photo Clostermann provided, we see two Tempests of 486 before take off.

Spoiler

Closterman2011.jpg

No invasion stripes, no skyband around the tail. I'd say Rotol props. The spinner is a good give away.

 

Tempest production. Or "not production":

Spoiler

Closterman3012.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I know that, but he took that image in the new edition of his book, even identified himself with an arrow:

  Hide contents

Closterman1010.jpg

This is weird. He got his first "Grand Charles" on his 24th birthday, so that was Feb. 28th when he also was handed command of No.3 and given that aircraft. He referring to is as "one of the new engines with 2'950 hp and Rotol propeller". Clould it be that this JF-M did not get his invasion stripes washed off by that time? JF-E certainly didn't have those stripes.

 

Impossible. Clostermann was flying Spitfires for the entire duration invasion stripes were present on the continent in any form - and they were only on the top surface of the aircraft for a few weeks. He transferred to Tempests as the new orders were being applied.

 

The colour of the band and spinner is called "RAF Sky, Type-S".

These accounts are verified by the Imperial War Museum:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205127013

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205210846

 

image.thumb.png.896b5c815d5a62949f1488e26e1e08a4.png

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

and they were only on the top surface of the aircraft for a few weeks.

Yes, they could be washed off. As it impacted the surface finish of the aircraft, I'm sure crews must have been happy to get them washed off.

 

19 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

The colour of the band and spinner is called "RAF Sky, Type-S".

Good old orphan colors.

Spoiler

alce011-l.pngUntitled_2.jpg

 

They are all different now. It would have been nice if they kept the mixing recipies.

Edited by ZachariasX
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unreasonable

Getting rid of the sky spinner was probably just some Oxford graduate miffed that the RAF is flying around in Cambridge blue.

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6 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

It doesn't look like the Rotol propeller, or is it? 

It looks like a DH unit indeed. Keep in mind that Clostermann may have taken that photo post-war, and this may be the "Grand Charles" that he nosed over a few days before the midair during a victory flyover. AFAIK it's unclear whether he actually flew NV724 during the war.

 

3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

This is weird. He got his first "Grand Charles" on his 24th birthday, so that was Feb. 28th when he also was handed command of No.3 and given that aircraft. He referring to is as "one of the new engines with 2'950 hp and Rotol propeller".

That's what the book says. But Clostermann actually joined 274 squadron on the 4th of march, flew for the first time on the 5th and got his first tempest victory on that day. IIRC he only was posted to 3 squadron on April 8th.

NV994 was delivered to 3 squadron on the 15th, april 1945, as JF-E. It was the first "Grand Charles". The one photo I have seems to suggest it had a DH prop, too. I believe NV994 was the one he had to belly land only a few days later when he got shot by american AAA. Supposedly he goit shot down at some point (the "piece of cake" story), but I can't find any traces of that.

By the end of the war, he was flying SN222.

Edited by Quinte
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8 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

The 'Invasion Stripes'  paint was of what type of paint?

It was different from the paint applied at the factory. I will check back what they used exactly. It was not like you see them on restored museum pieces that use „nice“ paint.

 

 

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Distemper was apparently used when the stripes were applied in the field. Factory smooth-paint stripes were later applied. You can usually see the difference on photographs.

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1 hour ago, Quinte said:

It looks like a DH unit indeed. Keep in mind that Clostermann may have taken that photo post-war, and this may be the "Grand Charles" that went down in a mid-air during an airshow. AFAIK it's unclear whether he actually flew NV724 during the war.

 

He didn‘t waste his „Grand Charles“ at Bremerhaven, that one had an oil leak. He even took that as a bad omen. He took a replacement aircraft and his wingman clipped off his tail with his prop during the parade, taking the other two in the formation with them. Clostermann being the only survivor, his chute opening right above ground. He had it as close as Eric Brown, minus the duck pond.

 

The picture was taken on the day he left the RAF, one hour before a B25 would take him to Paris. So yes, it is a post-war photograph.

 

1 hour ago, Quinte said:

But Clostermann actually joined 274 squadron on the 4th of march, flew for the first time on the 5th and got his first tempest victory on that day. IIRC he only was posted to 3 squadron on April 8th.

 

This is correct. Throughout his diary, he combines events of several days to sort of one chapter. He wrote them when he had the time for it, as his individual entries are unusually long for a diary. His book is not much edited (minus all the typos the idiotic publishers left), it is pretty much what he wrote originally adressing his parents.

 

This means he could well be no more than approximate with a lot of stuff now important to us, but in quality, he had no reason to lie about things. It makes it most challenging getting exact sense from it, as he was very mch in the fog of war at the time.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Quinte said:

Distemper was apparently used when the stripes were applied in the field. Factory smooth-paint stripes were later applied. You can usually see the difference on photographs.

Yes, exactly. It produces a much more uneven finish. Cheap and no need for primer.

Edited by ZachariasX
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1 minute ago, MiloMorai said:

And a much more ragged/uneven edge.

Would have been something, using tape and varnish first. „Hey, Picasso, there‘s a war on!“

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You somehow managed to quote something I had edited an hour before that. He nosed over after a too long landing a few days before that parade.

8 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

His book is not much edited (minus all the typos the idiotic publishers left)

The last french edition "Le Grand Cirque 2000" is almost entirely rewritten. Sadly I've lost my original edition, years ago, probably in some box somewhere at my parents'. Maybe someday I'll find it back, it has quite a few differences. For example, the original has dates all over. The new one, not so much.

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24 minutes ago, Quinte said:

For example, the original has dates all over. The new one, not so much.

The original French one I guess. I have a German first edition. That one also has sometimes dates leading chapters, but for our topic they are of little use. During the time he was put behind a desk in London up to his first missions with 122, there are hardly any reliable dates stated.

 

It‘s probably best to match this info with photographs and make some sense from that.

2 hours ago, Quinte said:

Supposedly he goit shot down at some point (the "piece of cake" story), but I can't find any traces of that.

He later denied having said that in this way, but indeed he got shot down by a 190D (possibly from JG301) that he chased. The German then took the fight. In process, after losing sight of him, Clostermann received shots in the engine at tree top altitude and had to belly land right away near the shore of lake Dümmer. The landing went smooth, but he got mugged by American soldiers while he was waiting next to the aircraft. He landed just a couple of yards on the German side. He got mugged and liberated at the same time.

 

With this episode, he managed to be the butt of a joke in the official sqadron report as the idiot who let himself getting shot down just days before the ar was over.

 

Not clear what aircraft he flew, but it seems he often had aircraft other than his personal one. I doubt that this was his JF-E, but I have to check to be sure.

 

One can definitely say, he as very, very lucky. He belly landed Tempests frequently. Most others ended very badly doing this stunt once. He even went to see his old friend Jaques and his old Spit squadron to show off with the Tempest. He did some aerobatics only to find out he couldn‘t lower his gear anymore and he belly landed right in front of the same crowd that watched his flying. He was rather popular among the crowd then.

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Just to finish, some info on RAF colours and markings,  plus a note on the RAF's 'Night', that was used for serial numbers, the under surfaces of many aircraft types, Typhoon and Tempest i.d stripes, and "D-Day stripes"(from Paul Lucas: RAF Fighters 1945 - 1950: UK Based and The Battle For Britain - RAF May to December 1940):

1-Tempest spring023.jpg

1-Tempest spring024.jpg

1-Tempest spring025.jpg

1-Tempest spring026.jpg

 

1-Tempest spring027-001.jpg

Edited by NZTyphoon
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7 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

I can't find any loss of a Tempest flown by Clostermann. Maybe it was salvaged?

Most likely. He made a landing soft ennough that he still hurt himself a bit by jumping out of the aircraft without detaching the oxygen tube. He said the German would have taken a pass at him but didn‘t fire. He must have been rather shaken up, regardless of what may have happened.

 

Thanks guys for the info on colors. Makes it easier to identify photographs!

Edited by ZachariasX
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  • 3 weeks later...

First claim from an NV series Tempest* 14th Jan, 2x Fw190 damaged by F/S M. J. Rose

 

*3rd production batch, +11lbs boost from factory

 

MVIMG_20180917_213245.jpg

 

 

First time Tempests appear in the 2TAF claims log, only 1 out of the 10 serials is not a batch 2 aircraft - JN875. The first production run ended on JN877 and we know the late aircraft were basically identical to the EJ series anyway.

 

 

MVIMG_20180917_213718.jpg

Edited by Talon_
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Just some claims trivia.

 

Bf109 - 79 destroyed, 6 damaged

Fw190 - 115 destroyed, 3 damaged

 

From looking at the claims list, claims of Fw190s increased in 1945 and of the Bf109 decreased.

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=RvE=SirScorpion

I think after reading this thread the argument should be if we should get the 13lb tempest which i fully support. the 11lb seems like a done deal and 9lb seems to be more out of time frame or "game play" than the 13lb is all things considered.

 

I also noticed some people are regular in attempting to logical fallacy soo hard to pre nerf none 109s. its like so consistent among so many threads its pathetically obvious. and needs to stop.   

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6 hours ago, =RvE=SirScorpion said:

I think after reading this thread the argument should be if we should get the 13lb tempest which i fully support. the 11lb seems like a done deal and 9lb seems to be more out of time frame or "game play" than the 13lb is all things considered.

I'm quite sure we can say with 99.99% confidence that we won't get a +13lbs Tempest. Reasons are as follow:

- There is very little to no solid intel regarding which aircrafts were cleared for such boost. The Sabre IIb was never cleared for that by Napier, which indicates a IIc. We don't know when this was introduced, and in what numbers?

- If we base this, as is often assumed, on the presence of a Rotol prop, very few wartime tempest Vs were fitted with such a prop unit, and they appear right at the end of our campaign's timeframe, during march 45.

- There is little to no info available as to the performance of such an aircraft.In fact, even finding actual performance numbers for a +11lbs, 3850 rpm Tempest V is quite difficult.

- Not to mention it would be quite the uber plane anyway.

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11 minutes ago, Quinte said:

- There is very little to no solid intel regarding which aircrafts were cleared for such boost. The Sabre IIb was never cleared for that by Napier, which indicates a IIc. We don't know when this was introduced, and in what numbers?

Never cleared by Napier? Here, look again, this is by the Napier Heritage Trust:

 

4626564044.png

 

We are musting at the possible power outputs of an engine that is absolutely known to produce 3'055 by the end of the year in question here. Also it is stated that the IIb ran officially at +11 boost, but if you see a whopping 600 hp headroom, then a 13' boost becomes at least plausible. Plus there *are" people thyt you can quote saying "I used +13' boost".

 

The Sabre is a most remarkable piston engine. I think it is even the most remarkable of the war. It by far outclasses ANY other piston engine in power to weight, power to displacement and power to frontal area. The Griffon was a good engine, but that's about it. Just a good, big fat V12.

 

Naturally, most hated thos engine, most notably RollsRoyce, a company that was rather infamous in handling things when they felt someone was stepping on their turf.

 

20 minutes ago, Quinte said:

- If we base this, as is often assumed, on the presence of a Rotol prop, very few wartime tempest Vs were fitted with such a prop unit, and they appear right at the end of our campaign's timeframe, during march 45.

True. But those very few are more like 50 operational aircraft, rather than 5.

 

 

 

In total, you are probably right. we will get what the devs have most info on, and this is +11 boost. RollsRoyce almost killed the plane back then, but now they could kill the memory of it by making Napier fold, erasing documentation of smaller, iterative steps to increase the power of the engine.

 

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