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xvii-Dietrich

Lots of questions on flying the Ju 52

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Hello all. I recently purchased the Junkers Ju 52/3m g4e transport and have been trying to learn it. I've been through the following: ...

However, I'm still having some problems and would like to ask for some help, please.
 
 

[ EDIT ] Throughout this thread, I've had lots of useful responses. To save wading through the entire thread, I've put the best available information in each section for reference.
 

 

 

 

1.  Temperature management

I know there are inlet cowls and oil radiators. But is there any information available on how to use them efficiently? Should I be watching the Inlet or Outlet Oil Temperature gauges to react? I seem to be either freezing the engine or overheating as the temperatures slew back and forth. Obviously I am over-correcting each time, so I am wondering what is the right way to do it?

 

Recommended Austritt temperature is 80-100 celsius. Recommended Eintritt temperature is 60-80 celsius. The inlet cowls have the greatest effect on the Austritt temperature and the oil radiators on the Eintritt temperature. Opening the inlet cowls also negatively impact the speed. There is a large specific heat capacity (thermal inertia), so the changes take a while to manifest. Additionally, the temperature input is dependent on the ambient temperature, airspeed, throttle and Höhengas settings, so there is not simple recipe for setting the coolers.

 

The Ju 52 seems to have only a basic engine model. I have not seen any engine failure from being too cold, so my current procedure is to open cowls and oil fully. Then, close the cowls until the Austritt temperature is approx. 90 celsius.

 

[ EDIT ]   See this reply below, for some really useful information on temperatures and speed performance.

               https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31137-lots-questions-flying-ju-52/?p=538075

 

[ EDIT ] If you understand German, there are some excellent videos listed here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32433-hilfe-zu-steuerung-ju52/?p=546229

 

 

2.  Mixture (sic)

How do I figure out what mixture levels to use? Requiem's Junkers 52/3m g4e familiarisation, video says to use maximum mixture to 1km, and then lean the mix when higher. On other sims, if I lean the mixture, I see the RPMs drop. On the Ju 52, it doesn't seem to do that.

 

There is no mixture on the Ju 52. It is Höhengas.

 

The advice given from the in-game "techno-chat" as well as the "aircraft briefing screen" are both incorrect. The instructions in Requiem's video are likewise incorrect. Furthermore, at high altitudes the sense of the Höhengas is incorrect. At 5km altitude, applying the Höhengas causes a significant drop in engine performance, when it should improve it. At low altitudes, the techno-chat advises to apply "mixture", which is both incorrectly labelled and is detrimental to the engine performance.

 

Therefore, I believe this is a serious bug in the implementation of the Ju 52 engine system in IL-2:BoX.

 

[ EDIT ] The Höhengas, as currently implemented, is a power boost. The best performance is got by setting it to 100% and throttling back to 93% (which results is the best "continuous" performance). It also means that in an emergency, you can slam the throttle forward to get emergency power, which is often easier or at least more convenient, given the way most players have their controls set up. Having the mixture at 100% increases the fuel consumption, but this is rarely an issue given the map sizes.
 

 

 

3.  Fuel levels

I can see the fuel gauge on the left engine, but I can't figure out how to position the camera to see the right fuel gauge. How do I do that?

 

It is not possible to see the right-hand gauge.

 

Fuel is shared between left and right to all engines. Thus the left-hand fuel indicator is simply an indication of all remaining fuel. If you have a fuel-leak on the right wing, the total fuel depletes. You cannot manage the fuel on the Ju 52 in IL-2:BoX to mitigate fuel-loss or handle balance.

 

 

4.  Co-pilot

Is it possible to switch to the co-pilot position? It would make it to see the gauges on that side and, as per the previous point, see the right-hand fuel level.

 

It is not possible to switch to the co-pilot position.

 

The only "available" positions are the pilot and gunner (if the gunner unlock is activated).

 

 

5.  Trim

What is the best way to trim the aircraft? As far as I can tell, there is I am using a combination of throttle and yaw trim. I apply slightly more throttle on the right to give more lift (= controls the roll) and then apply the yaw trim to hold the yaw steady. Is that correct? Are there better ways of doing it?

 

The best way to trim is to use the auto-leveller.

 

The auto-leveller is always superior to any manual trim. So if you want to fly absolutely straight and level, using this arcade feature always works the best. Furthermore, it will also give you the best speed performance.

 

[ EDIT ] When the auto-leveller is on, the Yaw Trim makes no difference. However, I recommend setting it to -40% for convenience. Thus, when you take the auto-leveller off, the aircraft is roughly yaw stable. The stabliser should be set as low as possible. Using -100% gives you the best speed increase, but -85% is a gentle lift if you take the auto-leveller off, rather than nosing straight down. The difference in performance is negligible.

 

If you want to do it manually without the auto-leveller, then the right engine should be run faster to give more lift on that side (there is no aileron trim, and there is no way to manually balance the fuel between wings). Then apply the rudder trim to stop yaw and apply the stabiliser to control pitch.

 

 
6.  Keyboard control of the stabiliser
 
I can control the stabiliser with an axis (e.g. I can do it my assigning my throttle axis to it), but I can't control it with keys. What I'd like to do, is be able to press, for example, PageUp and PageDown and it increments/decrements the stabiliser "one notch". Is this possible? From what I've read, it seems this might be a bug, but I'm not sure.

 

This is an intermittent bug.

 

Under certain circumstances it works, but most of the time it does not. I suspect it might be related to whether there is an axis mapped to control the stabiliser. However, my tests have not been repeatable and even if no axis is mapped, and I start the game completely from scratch, the stabiliser still fails to respond to key-presses. However, in other cases, the axis is mapped and the keys still work (although the slightest touch of the axis controller will make the stabiliser lock to that, after which the keys no longer respond.

 

 
 
7.  Switching between flaps and stabiliser
 
Sort of related to the previous question. If I use an axis for controlling the stabiliser, when I select the flaps and move them the stabiliser moves too. Fine, I understand that. However, when I disengage the flaps, the stabiliser suddenly lurches up to a new position. How can I avoid that?
 

It is not possible to avoid this.

 

This is a limitation of the fact that the "axis" cannot be limited. Therefore, it is possible to move the axis, even though the flaps have run into their mechanical limits. What this means is that you can increase the axis beyond the limit of the flaps. When the flaps are disengaged, the stabiliser is suddenly free to shoot up to the new position.

 

The only way to deal with it, is to be very careful when adjusting the flaps and when the limit is reached, stop adjusting the axis controller. When the flaps are disengaged the stabiliser will be close to the correct position and the aircraft will not suddenly lurch up/down. Under usual flight conditions, this is acceptable, but a mistake in procedure can still result in problems.

 

 

8.  Radio beacon

In the Ju-52/3m g4e Introduction thread, the cockpit familiarisation shows a Radio Beacon and Radio Beacon Direction gauges on the dashboard. How do I use these in-game?

 

 

I am still experimenting with this.

 

See the references in Plurp's reply below:  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31137-lots-questions-flying-ju-52/?p=509649

 

 

9.  Fire extinguishers

There is a fire extinguisher pressure gauge and some levers for controlling the extinguishers. Can these be controlled in the game?

 

The fire extinguishers are non-functional.

 

If you are hit and catch fire, there is no extinguisher and your only option might be to dive to "blow the fire out" (I've done this in the Ju 88, but not yet in the Ju 52). Otherwise, ditch or bail before the situation gets out of hand.  :-\

 

 

 

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions!  :salute:

Edited by xvii-Dietrich
Updated the Höhengas/fuel-consumption section.
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Im also a fan of it but rarely use it as I simply dont quite know what to do and have difficulties with it.

 

Any ju52 regulars out there?

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#8:  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/26659-ju-523m-g4e-introduction/page-2?hl=ju

 

Posts 61,63,67,73 of me testing and playing around with one beacon.

 

Ah, great! Thanks for the tip; I had missed it. I'll play around with it and try to get something working myself.

 

 

 

 

390 pages german Ju 52/3m PDF 1939

 

http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/j/Junkers/Ju%2052/Ju%2052%20Betriebsanleitung%201939.pdf

 

 

Landing in LSZR with Junkers Ju52

 

Thanks for posting that manual. That's a wonderful resource.   (Nice landing video too.)

 

 

 

 

I'm still looking for information on the other sections, so if there are any other Ju 52 enthusiasts out there who could help, it would be most appreciated. Thanks!! :salute:

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Thanks for all the tips and information. :salute:
 

 

I have been experimenting with engine management on the Ju 52 to address issues #1 and #2 in the original post. And I have found some rather puzzling things.

Firstly, engine damage seems related to engine temperature and U/min (= RPM). The engine temperature is related to the ambient (outside air) temperature.

Temperature in BoX, at least at low-altitudes, seems to be very simply modelled. Regardles of time-of-day or weather, it is:

  • Summer maps = 25 deg C
  • Autumn maps = 15 deg C
  • Winter maps = -15 deg C

I am not sure if this is just from the "Quick missions" or if it is a more general condition. Are any mission-builders able to confirm this?


Regardless, the test conditions are as follows:

  • Full standard cargo (2300kg)
  • Full fuel (100%)
  • Rear gunner (B-stand)
  • Flight altitude (approx. 100m)

The test was to find the fastest possible airspeed for each of the three temperature conditions. My conclusion is that the way to do this is to run at nearly maximum throttle, but with greatly reduced mixture.
 

AirTemp  Thr  Mix  Cwl  Oil  Trim  Stab  Speed
 degC      %    %    %    %     %    %   km/h
  25      95   10  100  100   -43  -85    239
  15     100    5   95  100   -50  -80    243
 -15     100    5   85   35   -65 -100    261  

In all cases, I take off with Thr/Mix/Cwl/Oil all at 100%, stabilise the aircraft and trim, throttle back, drop the mixture, and then reduce the coolers. In all cases, the engine oil input and output temperatures stabilise. Additionally, the "techno chat" reports that I am on continuous mode. By running really low mixture, the fuel-endurance improves.


Questions:

  • Are these the best settings I can use for low-altitude performance?
  • Reducing the mixture to nearly-zero seems to be a bug. Can anyone confirm this?

 

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Reducing the mixture to nearly-zero seems to be a bug. Can anyone confirm this?

 

I have learned from Klaus that this is actually not mixture but the altitude throttle ("Höhengas"). It should only be used from 900m up to correct for RPM drop, otherwise it should be set to 0.

 

Klaus or Stuka probably can explain this in more detail. 

Edited by JG4_dingsda

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I have learned from Klaus that this is actually not mixture but the altitude throttle ("Höhengas"). It should only be used from 900m up to correct for RPM drop, otherwise it should be set to 0.

 

 

Yep... you're absolutely right. According to the manuals (I checked versions from Juli-1939 and März-1941), there is "Normalgas" and "Höhengas".

 

I think there were two things that assisted my misunderstanding:

  1. The in-game flight instructions refer to "mixture" and "leaning".
  2. If enabled, the technochat says "Mixture" and warns you in the wrong way (telling you to increase mixture, instead of decreasing it!).

So, in spite of that, just set it to zero, and only tweak if going to high altitude.

 

 

Does anyone know if there is an explanation on how the "Höhengas" system works? I don't need it to fly, but I'd like to understand it.

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The expression "Höhengas" ("high altitude throttle" maybe) was used from WW1 on. About Maybach-engines at Zeppelins I first read about it. Afaik it was a method to lean out the mixture at the carburettor, at the Bramo realized with an extra leveller, see here:

 

https://www.bmw-syndikat.de/bmwsyndikatfotos/topic42247_BMW_9-Zylinder_Stern_Motor_mit_max_660_PS_Fotostories_weiterer_BMW_Modelle.html

 

(scroll down to "Detailansicht des Pallas-Vergasers (der Vergaser war ein ewiges Problemkind des BMW-132)")

 

I very much suspect it reduced the flow of fuel additionally, because it's installed next to the fuel-input. But I've no further proof for this.

 

Looking at the "try and error" procedure in the Ju-52-handbook

 

 

post-1187-0-75583100-1506362150_thumb.png

 

 

It was a most simple "reduce until suitable and add a few ticks to be on the safe side" - procedure.

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Great article in that link.  (esp. with all those seaplane photos!)

 

The implication of that snippet of the Handbuch is that the Höhengas should simply be left off when low. I'm still not convinced the BoX implementation is correct, but I'll do some more testing first.

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Temperature in BoX, at least at low-altitudes, seems to be very simply modelled. Regardles of time-of-day or weather, it is:

  • Summer maps = 25 deg C
  • Autumn maps = 15 deg C
  • Winter maps = -15 deg C

I am not sure if this is just from the "Quick missions" or if it is a more general condition. Are any mission-builders able to confirm this?

Temperature can be set in the mission editor. It's for the duration of the mission, so it can be for the whole day if the mission is that long.

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@LLv34_Temuri -- thanks. Yes, I can see how that is done now. It is only the "quick missions" which have a few pre-set temperatures. (Normally I just use quick-missions for testing and training.)

Meanwhile, over on the Auto level of planes that never had it thread...
 

 

Real aircraft didn't have keyboards either, or small plastic sticks that could be deflected with a single finger...or push button startup, or cozy soft office chairs...shall I go on?


I agree with the above statement. It's a feature that helps the gamer and doesn't take any advantage. You flight faster without autolevel and a properly trimmed aircraft.

 



This is directly related to Point #5 in the original post of this thread.

I am doing my testing using ground-hugging flying (circa 100m altitude). To trim, I have approximately the following settings:

  • 100% Throttle, cowling flaps, oil-coolers
  • 0% Höhengas
  • -40% Yaw trim
  • -85% Stabiliser

The exact numbers depend slightly on the temperature and wind speed/direction, but it is roughly this.

 

If I take the auto-leveller off, the aircraft holds course. So, basically the aircraft is trimmed. However, with the auto-leveller on, my speed increases. Why?

 

And, is there a way to ever get a better speed without the auto-leveller than with it?

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Looking at the "try and error" procedure in the Ju-52-handbook

 

 

attachicon.gifJu52-lean-mix.png

 

 

It was a most simple "reduce until suitable and add a few ticks to be on the safe side" - procedure.

 

I've been through the Ju52 manual a couple of times now, including the section that you mention. The relevant bits (including the part you found) are:

 

post-71162-0-04378600-1507393294_thumb.jpg

 

post-71162-0-21537800-1507393308_thumb.jpg

 

I am still confused by this. The terms high-altitude throttle lever (dt. Höhengashebel) and mixture lever (dt. Gemisch-Regelhebel) seem contradictory. I still can't work out what setting of the Höhengashebel I should use under 2km. From testing in BoX, I get the best continuous (dauerhaft) performance at low-alt, but setting the Höhengashebel off (= 0%) and adjusting only the throttle. However, the technical manuals suggest that the Höhengashebel should be applied only until a drop of 10-20 RPM is achieved.

 

Meanwhile, the technochat screams "Adjust mixture!" if you drop it less than 75% at low-alt. I still can't figure out if this is a bug or not.

 

What would be really useful would be either a Ju 52 video (showing the Höhengashebel during operation) or a general-assembly or schematic of the  fuel/air lines in a BMW 132A engine.

 

 

 

Regarding "auffällig starkem Rußen in etwa 3-4 km"... yeah... typically die Russen in YaKs. :-P

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I have been through all the replies and have done a lot of separate reading and testing and have now figured out most of the issues.

 

 

I have updated the original post with green text, showing the best answers I have for the various topics.

 

 

The only issue that I'm still not so sure about is the use of the radio beacons. I will continue to experiment on this, but would welcome any other information, tips or hints that others may have on that (or any of the other issues).

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I have been through all the replies and have done a lot of separate reading and testing and have now figured out most of the issues.

 

 

I have updated the original post with green text, showing the best answers I have for the various topics.

 

 

The only issue that I'm still not so sure about is the use of the radio beacons. I will continue to experiment on this, but would welcome any other information, tips or hints that others may have on that (or any of the other issues).

 

What issues are you having with the beacons.  With more info, I may be able to help.

Edited by Plurp

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What issues are you having with the beacons.  With more info, I may be able to help.

 

 

I suspect I'm mis-understanding the functionality of them.

 

Okay, here's what I'm doing.

 

  • I have the HUD/assistance on for the time-being so I can see what is going on.
  • I select a quick mission (single aircraft, no enemy, test flight).
  • I spawn in with my Ju 52 and take off and fly out to the way point.
  • I then turn back to the general direction of the airfield.
  • I turn so the "kompass" indicator (the one above the turn/slip indicator) lines up on the centre arrow.
  • At this point, the Lorenz gauge (the one right of the clock) lines up so the vertical needle is centered at the bottom.

 

This will certainly bring me back to base.

 

Once at base, I look at the runway alignment. I fly downwind, then onto base and then turn onto final. The needles line up again.

 

However... as I approach the threshold of the runway, I do not see the Lorenz light come on. I also do not see the range needle on the Lorenz drop down.

 

The other thing that is not clear to me, is how the radio.obs dial (the one directly below the variometer) adds anything to the approach. It gives the direction to the beacon, but the Kompass indicator does the same thing. I can see that you could use it to tri-laterate on a position, but that would assume that you had a second beacon and some way to switch frequencies between them. As far as I can tell, there is not way to switch frequency.

 

 

One of your other posts (REF) mentions a chuck-guide. I have a copy of this, but it only mentions the AFN-2 and does not discuss the AFN-1. The AFN-2 does not resemble the Ju 52. Mind you, the chuck-guide doesn't have anything on the Ju 52 whatsoever, so perhaps I have a really old version or something.

 

 

 

Thanks for your help.

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I suspect I'm mis-understanding the functionality of them.

 

Okay, here's what I'm doing.

 

  • I have the HUD/assistance on for the time-being so I can see what is going on.
  • I select a quick mission (single aircraft, no enemy, test flight).
  • I spawn in with my Ju 52 and take off and fly out to the way point.
  • I then turn back to the general direction of the airfield.
  • I turn so the "kompass" indicator (the one above the turn/slip indicator) lines up on the centre arrow.
  • At this point, the Lorenz gauge (the one right of the clock) lines up so the vertical needle is centered at the bottom.

 

This will certainly bring me back to base.

 

Once at base, I look at the runway alignment. I fly downwind, then onto base and then turn onto final. The needles line up again.

 

However... as I approach the threshold of the runway, I do not see the Lorenz light come on. I also do not see the range needle on the Lorenz drop down.

 

The other thing that is not clear to me, is how the radio.obs dial (the one directly below the variometer) adds anything to the approach. It gives the direction to the beacon, but the Kompass indicator does the same thing. I can see that you could use it to tri-laterate on a position, but that would assume that you had a second beacon and some way to switch frequencies between them. As far as I can tell, there is not way to switch frequency.

 

 

One of your other posts (REF) mentions a chuck-guide. I have a copy of this, but it only mentions the AFN-2 and does not discuss the AFN-1. The AFN-2 does not resemble the Ju 52. Mind you, the chuck-guide doesn't have anything on the Ju 52 whatsoever, so perhaps I have a really old version or something.

 

 

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Lorenz light:  The light has a very narrow beam so you have to fly directly over it.  To do so you have to locate it's exact position before you leave the area.  (quick missions it changes position each time you load a new one) The lower you are, the less time the light comes on, if very low will just be a flash.  A better indicator are the needles and the obs dial starting to move.

 

Lorenz gauge:  Close to the airfield the needle will be at the top of the gauge and will not move much as it marks 0, 25, 50, 75, and 100 (at the bottom) km.  The AFN gauge and obs dial seem to drop out at around 90 km or so while the Kompass indicator seems to work after 100 km.

 

Obs dial:  Yes, flying to a beacon, it is redundant except for giving you the course to the beacon.  Otherwise it acts as the "P" "S" needle on the mag compass of 88, 111s, 110s (front of gunners seat)  Which helps in triangulating and flying away from a beacon as I do in my example.  You cannot fly "from" a beacon with an AFN-1/2 gauge or the Kompass needle.  I also use it my example to fly around the beacon to make an approach with only one beacon being available.  If more beacons were placed with the ability to change channels then it would be like following bread crumbs to the airfield. (Side note:  they have combined a non-directional beacon with the inner/outer markers for a Lorenz system where it should be a beacon at the end of the runway, with an inner and outer beacon on the approach to the runway.)

 

AFN-1/2:  Are the same gauge with the 2 just having the light in the middle of the gauge to save room I believe.

 

For something different, choose the campaign and pick the 52 with a transport run.  I did one last night to drop cargo containers.  It will have a beacon at the home airfield and one at the drop site.  It will switch automatically to the closer one.  Pick a short mission and you will be on course to the drop site.  The obs dial will show you the course to the home field and AFN-1 will show you the range.  Once you get closer to the drop they will all switch over to that beacon.  After the drop, you can fly "away from the beacon using the obs dial.  Once closer to the home airfield they will again switch over to take you home.

 

I hope this helps.

Edited by Plurp
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Hi all,

I´ve had this annoying problem which makes taxiing in Ju52 impossible.

 

The 1st and 3rd engine throttles are very sensitive when it comes to rudder input. Especially 1st, the rudder has to be exactly right position, or else the throttle drops to 19 %, and the plane starts spinning. Same goes for 3rd engine, but 1st is way more sensitive, only the slightest movement, and you are doomed to spin eternally. Adding more sensitivity/dead zone in controller settings don´t help. 

 

Rudders are MFG Crosswind.

 

Anyone know to fix this? Help would be appreciated.

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I´ve had this annoying problem which makes taxiing in Ju52 impossible.

 

The 1st and 3rd engine throttles are very sensitive when it comes to rudder input. Especially 1st, the rudder has to be exactly right position, or else the throttle drops to 19 %, and the plane starts spinning. Same goes for 3rd engine, but 1st is way more sensitive, only the slightest movement, and you are doomed to spin eternally. Adding more sensitivity/dead zone in controller settings don´t help.

 

It is partly that way by design.

 

The Ju 52 is a bit quirky in the that the throttle is also the brake. :wacko:

 

Then to complicate things further, the developers have mapped the brakes to a throttle drop, for convenience for those with limited controllers.

 

 

 

Basically, Engine 1 (Left) and Engine 3 (Right) throttles are throttle from 25% to 100%. Below 25%, they are brakes for the left and right side respectively. What happens is that pilots not aware of this quirk will want to turn with the brakes and throttle back. Inadvertently, they throttle under 25% on the side the want to keep going, but it brakes out and the plane starts spinning.

 

The solution (for me) is to keep the throttles at 25%+ at ALL times, and map some keys to handle the brakes. If you apply the brakes the sim will automatically drop the throttle on the correct side. Basically, I throttle up all engines to get rolling, drop back to 25% on all engines, and then touch the brake keys to taxi left or right.

 

Another thing that helps is to bring the tail up (or at least take the pressure off) by pushing the stick forward. This lets the aircraft swing left/right easily. This is a Bad Thing, when taxiing. But it is a Good Thing, when you are speeding up on the take-off, because it gives you better rudder control.

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Thank you for the answer and tips!

 

But the problem is that even when the throttle is 100 %, applying rudder drops throttle to minimum, regardless of what the throttle position is.

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But the problem is that even when the throttle is 100 %, applying rudder drops throttle to minimum, regardless of what the throttle position is.

 

In that case I'm going to guess that what is happening is either:

 

a) You have throttle mapped to your rudder pedals (somehow). Check the controller settings for the throttle in the Engine section. Check all throttle settings... the common "all engine" one, as well as the throttle for Engine 1, Engine 2 and Engine 3 separately, or...

 

b) It might be that the brakes are somehow just triggering, which causes the throttle to suddenly drop. For this, go to your brakes and give yourself a few % of deadzone. Make sure that you really need to move the brake pedals a bit to get the controller input to move. Otherwise, as you move the rudder left/right you might be exactly on the border of causing some brake input, which causes the throttle to drop.

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The Ju 52 is a bit quirky in the that the throttle is also the brake. :wacko:

 

Then to complicate things further, the developers have mapped the brakes to a throttle drop, for convenience for those with limited controllers.

 

I don't think its for convenience- afaik that's how the brakes work on a real Ju 52. Certainly quirky tho!  :wacko:

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I don't think its for convenience- afaik that's how the brakes work on a real Ju 52. Certainly quirky tho!  :wacko:

 

I meant the idea of mapping the brake-pedals/keys to the throttle drop. Sorry for the ambiguity.

 

 

But, yes, the brakes on a real Ju 52 are controlled by pulling the throttle levers back. Quirky is probably an understatement.

 

While we are on the topic of quirky, you've got to admire the engine cooling arrangement with its bifurcated oil-flow system.

 

And then there are the dual-flaps-stabiliser controls. :o:

 

 

 

But that's part of why we love the Ju 52. :)

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Oh yeah, gotcha- I was pretty pleasantly surprised by the brake mapping. 

 

I remember reading the dev diary describing the flaps+stab control and was soooo confused, but it's surprisingly easy after doing it once or twice. I find most people don't bother with flaps on the 52 tho, when I've flown in a group, which is a shame because they're fun to mess with.

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In that case I'm going to guess that what is happening is either:

 

Thanks for tips, I´ll try if those help.

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I remember reading the dev diary describing the flaps+stab control and was soooo confused, but it's surprisingly easy after doing it once or twice. I find most people don't bother with flaps on the 52 tho, when I've flown in a group, which is a shame because they're fun to mess with.

 

They are fun, so I use them anyway.

 

But they are rather tricksy when you use a controller. You can raise the flaps, which then stop at the limit of the flap retraction. If you overshoot the controller, it stays at that position of flaps up. But disengage the flaps and the stabiliser suddenly shoots up the the actual controller position... and the plane suddenly lurches up/down unexpectedly.

 

What the Ju 52 can do though, is really short takeoffs/landings. Most of the time we are on long runways, so it doesn't matter. But short runways are fun indeed.

 

Also, the flaps let you fly really slowly. Which is good if you want to do a paradrop into as small an area as possible.

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b) It might be that the brakes are somehow just triggering, which causes the throttle to suddenly drop. For this, go to your brakes and give yourself a few % of deadzone. Make sure that you really need to move the brake pedals a bit to get the controller input to move. Otherwise, as you move the rudder left/right you might be exactly on the border of causing some brake input, which causes the throttle to drop.

 

I changed dead zone of brakes from 0 %  to 20 %, and that did the trick. Cheers!

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Thanks for all the tips and information. :salute:

 

 

I have been experimenting with engine management on the Ju 52 to address issues #1 and #2 in the original post. And I have found some rather puzzling things.

 

Firstly, engine damage seems related to engine temperature and U/min (= RPM). The engine temperature is related to the ambient (outside air) temperature.

 

Temperature in BoX, at least at low-altitudes, seems to be very simply modelled. Regardles of time-of-day or weather, it is:

  • Summer maps = 25 deg C
  • Autumn maps = 15 deg C
  • Winter maps = -15 deg C
I am not sure if this is just from the "Quick missions" or if it is a more general condition. Are any mission-builders able to confirm this?

 

 

Regardless, the test conditions are as follows:

  • Full standard cargo (2300kg)
  • Full fuel (100%)
  • Rear gunner (B-stand)
  • Flight altitude (approx. 100m)
The test was to find the fastest possible airspeed for each of the three temperature conditions. My conclusion is that the way to do this is to run at nearly maximum throttle, but with greatly reduced mixture.

 

AirTemp  Thr  Mix  Cwl  Oil  Trim  Stab  Speed
 degC      %    %    %    %     %    %   km/h
  25      95   10  100  100   -43  -85    239
  15     100    5   95  100   -50  -80    243
 -15     100    5   85   35   -65 -100    261  
In all cases, I take off with Thr/Mix/Cwl/Oil all at 100%, stabilise the aircraft and trim, throttle back, drop the mixture, and then reduce the coolers. In all cases, the engine oil input and output temperatures stabilise. Additionally, the "techno chat" reports that I am on continuous mode. By running really low mixture, the fuel-endurance improves.

 

 

Questions:

  • Are these the best settings I can use for low-altitude performance?
  • Reducing the mixture to nearly-zero seems to be a bug. Can anyone confirm this?

 

I too am curious on the fastest possible airspeed with the Ju-52 at continuous level flight. I find that leaving mixture (Höhengas) at 100% gives best engine performance and convenience (for when I want to push the engines into Climb and Emergency mode). I usually fly low (50m) so I have no experience in changing Höhengas for "better" fuel consumption, as flying high and far while worrying about fuel consumption is not something I consider important for the current map sizes.

 

I seem to have found my essential settings for the Junkers 52 at 50m altitude:

*With the following load out: Full standard cargo (2300kg), Full fuel (100%), Rear gunner (B-stand)

 

@50 meter altitude
AirTemp  Thr  Mix  Cwl  Oil  YTrim  Stab  Speed
 degC      %    %    %    %      %    %   km/h
 -15      93  100   25  100      0 -100    264  
  15      95  100   60  100      0 -100    248  
  25      95  100   75  100      0 -50*    241  

* Level Stabilizer is insignificant in summer maps, no speed advantage above or below -50%

264 km/h being the fastest speed for continuous level flight during winter.

 

 

 

Level Stabilizer at -100% seems to improve the air speed by 1-2 km/h, better the colder the air is and has practically no effect in summer temperatures (around 25 Celsius), so in summer I just leave it at -50% default position for convenience.

 

Oil Radiator Shutters do not impact the air speed in any way so I always leave these at 100% open. And as OP has said "The Ju 52 seems to have only a basic engine model", so over cooling won't be a problem since it is not modeled at this time.

 

Inlet Cowl will improve airspeed by 2-3 km/h, more so when it is fully closed at 0% but that is not practical in the long term. As OP said "there is a large specific heat capacity (thermal inertia)", so it takes a while to find the equilibrium temperature when adjusting the Cowls. With all the other settings winter cowls are at 25%, autumn at 60% and summer at 75%.

 

I never use Yaw trim when flying the Ju-52 and during my testing I found it has no effect on airspeed at 50m.

 

Landing light unfolds from the wing to shine forward, but I find it has no effect on airspeed. Neither does opening the canopy windows during flight (I don't believe any windows in-game impact airspeed).

 

bwhzrIs.jpg

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Nice piece of research there, @8.8cm-Flak-36.
 

I seem to have found my essential settings for the Junkers 52 at 50m altitude:
*With the following load out: Full standard cargo (2300kg), Full fuel (100%), Rear gunner (B-stand)
 

@50 meter altitude
AirTemp  Thr  Mix  Cwl  Oil  YTrim  Stab  Speed
 degC      %    %    %    %      %    %   km/h
 -15      93  100   25  100      0 -100    264  
  15      95  100   60  100      0 -100    248  
  25      95  100   75  100      0 -50*    241  

* Level Stabilizer is insignificant in summer maps, no speed advantage above or below -50%

264 km/h being the fastest speed for continuous level flight during winter.

 


That's a really useful table!

 

Just for the benefit of others, that loadout is the current maximum load... pretty much the benchmark for testing. The temperatures in the table are the three standard temperatures you get for a Winter, Autumn and Summer map, respectively, when you do a quick mission. For my testing, I always set wind/turbulence/etc. to minimum, to keep the results consistent.


 

Level Stabilizer at -100% seems to improve the air speed by 1-2 km/h, better the colder the air is and has practically no effect in summer temperatures (around 25 Celsius), so in summer I just leave it at -50% default position for convenience.


That surprised me a bit.

I normally have the satbiliser set at -87%. This is "stable", so when I take the auto-leveller off, the aircraft doesn't lurch nose-down. However, for a long stretch, yep... the stabiliser at -100% is best.

 

Oil Radiator Shutters do not impact the air speed in any way so I always leave these at 100% open. And as OP has said "The Ju 52 seems to have only a basic engine model", so over cooling won't be a problem since it is not modeled at this time.
 
Inlet Cowl will improve airspeed by 2-3 km/h, more so when it is fully closed at 0% but that is not practical in the long term. As OP said "there is a large specific heat capacity (thermal inertia)", so it takes a while to find the equilibrium temperature when adjusting the Cowls. With all the other settings winter cowls are at 25%, autumn at 60% and summer at 75%.


As far as I can tell, all engines heat/cool similarly. I have a very slight suspicion that the middle engine might be a fraction more susceptible to heat, but I'm not sure.



 

I never use Yaw trim when flying the Ju-52 and during my testing I found it has no effect on airspeed at 50m.


I set Yaw trim to -40% or so. As you say, it makes no difference. However, when taking the auto-leveller off, a setting of -40% is roughly stable, which makes handling easier.

Regarding altitude, 50m is pretty-much spot on for tactical flying under dangerous circumstances. This comes up in numerous references (e.g. Forsgren, J., "The Junkers Ju 52 story"). Here are a few photographs from different seasons, locations and eras:
 

 Demjansk, early 1942
post-71162-0-53417100-1511654550_thumb.jpg
 
 Demjansk, mid 1942
post-71162-0-95291000-1511654513_thumb.jpg
 

 Corsica, September 1943
post-71162-0-82429000-1511654567_thumb.jpg
 

 Crete, 1943

post-71162-0-45155800-1511654587_thumb.jpg


 

 Stalingrad, January 1943

post-71162-0-77484800-1511654786_thumb.jpg


 
 

Landing light unfolds from the wing to shine forward, but I find it has no effect on airspeed. Neither does opening the canopy windows during flight (I don't believe any windows in-game impact airspeed).


I hadn't thought to test the canopy/doors or light. Good thinking. I'm not surprised about the light, but I would have expected the doors to have a bit of an effect.

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For my testing, I always set wind/turbulence/etc. to minimum, to keep the results consistent.

 

Yes, I tested it with lowest settings for those conditions.

 

 

I normally have the satbiliser set at -87%. This is "stable", so when I take the auto-leveller off, the aircraft doesn't lurch nose-down. However, for a long stretch, yep... the stabiliser at -100% is best.

 

 

I set Yaw trim to -40% or so. As you say, it makes no difference. However, when taking the auto-leveller off, a setting of -40% is roughly stable, which makes handling easier.

 

Nice to know that it is most stable at -87%, I seldom turn off the auto-leveller when flying multiplayer (usualy TAW server) during transport missions from one airfield to the next, just keeping a constant heading until the radio beacon picks up my destination. Although when flying in formations that can be real helpful in making minute adjustments to stay with flight leader.

 

3BVwLhZ.jpg

 

That is another reason I use full 100% mixture, to quickly get surges of power so I can keep formation. And the plane having fixed prop pitches means that the RPM (Climb and Emergency) is entirely dependent on airspeed, so until you reach the maximum airspeed you will stay within continuous RPM even at 100% throttle. For my previous post that is why 95% (instead of 93%) throttle is considered continuous during warmer temperatures. 

 

 

 

 

I have a very slight suspicion that the middle engine might be a fraction more susceptible to heat, but I'm not sure.

 

The middle engine does happen to heat up at a quicker rate as opposed to the wing engines. I believe poorer cooling on the middle engine is due to the fact that it has a townend ring cowling instead of the NACA cowlings which the wing engines have.

 

Bolivian Airforce Ju-52 with all towned ring cowlings

 

y6Xqx5h.jpg

 

Early German Ju-52 without any cowls

651A1HK.jpg

 

German Ju-52 in Africa with Field modified NACA cowling on middle engine

zjMXMNB.jpg

 

German Ju-52 without middle engine cowl along with a front gunner field modification

cU0VAvE.jpg

 

 

I would have expected the doors to have a bit of an effect.

 

I only tested the pilot and copilot windows, I don't know what effect a ripped out cargo door (forgetting to shut it before take-off) or just the regular passenger door (for para-drops) in the back has on airspeed. Maybe I should test the other load outs some time.

 

Very nice pictures you posted, I will have to take a look at "The Junkers Ju 52 story"  :)

Edited by 8.8cm-Flak-36
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Thanks for the images. The second one (early German Ju 52) is interesting as the cowls are shut.

 

If you have external views switched on in BoX, you can go outside the aircraft. Adjust the inlet cowls and you can see then open/close on the front of the engines. This is neat... especially as it helps one understand how they function.

 

The oil adjustment is not exactly on/off. It changes the flow through 1/3 to 3/3 of the radiator fin-banks. There is always some cooling... even with them fully closed. However, this is internal only and there are no moving parts to be seen. I thought I'd posted a picture of the diagram, but I can't find it now. If not, I'll try to remember to dig it out again and post it up.

 

 

PS: I was interested to see the multiplayer-Ju52-flights, @8.8cm-Flak-36. That's looks cool. Do you have events or a squad or something? And is this others can join in on?

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Yes, I forgot about that too, the Oil Shutters are not actually shutters but just valves that control how much oil enters the radiator or flows through the bypass valve. So air resistance is always constant with these.

 

oBsNkXy.jpg

 

 

 

PS: I was interested to see the multiplayer-Ju52-flights, @8.8cm-Flak-36. That's looks cool. Do you have events or a squad or something? And is this others can join in on?

 

I am not associated with any squad and I don't know of any events. Opportunity presents itself in the server and someones organizes to lead the flight, that's what usually happens. Recently on TAW dynamic campaign as Axis we won a mission that later won us the map rotation for paradropping on the Allies last airfield (Maikop).

See >> https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21029-tactical-air-war/?p=536953

Edited by 8.8cm-Flak-36
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Yes, I forgot about that too, the Oil Shutters are not actually shutters but just valves that control how much oil enters the radiator or flows through the bypass valve. So air resistance is always constant with these.

 

I've just found the diagram in the original manual. Here it is:

 

post-71162-0-52914900-1511779441_thumb.jpg

 

Ref: "Betriebsanleitung, Ju52/3m g3e und g4e", Junkers Flugzeug- und -Motorenwerke  Aktiengesellschaft Dessau. Fernruf 4051. Kap.7/Seite.32, März 1941.

 

As you wrote, it is a bypass valve (dt. Absperrstopfen), that is being adjusted.

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