Tactical Air War

[Pikestance]

3 hours ago, Riksen said:

 

0/1 means you start off with 0 but can earn the plane as you accumulate combat mission (CM). What you propose is the ideal scenario but the GAME has limitations and you should take those into consideration. For example, the server only has 84 slots and some other planes are not available yet. Other factors like limited fuel and pilot shortages as well as poor training in the Luftwaffe are not taken into consideration but since you seen to be the type of guy that commits to history which is something I also enjoy let's do some fact checking and commit to them shall we? So here we go:

1. The III./JG77 only started to use the K-4 around mid-October 1944 and even then, it was a mix of G models and K4s until about December. Make sure you and your squadron, for historical sake, commit exclusively to the G14 before Oct 14 1944 during the campaign;

2. The II./JG26 only started using Doras at end of November 1944 so again, for historical purposes, you should not be using it before this dates. Commit to the Anton series for a bit in the begining;

3. II./ZG76 switched to the Me-410 in July 1944 and remained with that ariframe until Feb 1945 when it was converted into the III./JG54 so make sure you exclude that unit from the campaign so we stick to the historical background.

4. Despite having the latest models, like the K4, D-9, and the 262, being delivered to the front, their usage was largely limited by the lack of fuel, pilots, and maintenance. Also, remember that most Bf-109s available were not K4s but a mixture of other G models including G-10s and G-14s in a proportion close to 2:1 (2 for non-K4 models). I addition, there is limited data that supports the use of C3 fuel and, therefore, the wide use DC engine in the Luftwaffe with only evidence of one test unit;

5. We should also therefore apply the numbers in terms of balance as you suggested, with some source claiming that the ratio between Allies and Germans was close to 10:1 in favor of the Allies. So perhaps, again, for historical purposes, let's limit the spots in the server to 7 for the Axis and 77 for the Allies. After all, we all want to be historical here right?

 

 

If there is no large difference between them, why do you need the K4 then? You obviously do not know the planes you fly very well. The K4 is arguably the best plane in the game and, in the hand of a good pilot, very hard to be destroyed. I know the rate of success largely depends on the pilot skill but this only applies in a balanced matchup. I bet even the best pilot in the game here would do poorly if he was flying a U-2 against a Spitfire Mk.IXe.

 

Once you snap back to reality and factor game mechanics into it then, please,  propose something useful to us.

 

You must think I fell off the turnip truck this morning? Is the history lesson for my benefit (I would hope not) or others. Moreover, the most common plane in the inventory was the G-6, not the G-14 according to the inventory. Group I did, however fly the G-14 instead of the K-4. Anyway, the date given is for the second map. When was the offensive? if prior to the use of the K-4, then we will need access to the G-6. 

 

I personally only just tarted flying the K-4, since my original unit did not fly the K-4. JG 77 happened to fly it. Regardless of the plane once you are comfortable it doesn't matter. 

If you think the ratio argument bothers me, it doesn't. As I said, it is what it is. If you want to reenact an historical encounter, it is farce to change the ratio. Sorry, that just what it is. 

The issue is slightly different if you creating a fictional battle within a historical context. There, you can play a little round, but you shouldn't manipulate the factors to the point is becomes gamy or gimmicky. Anyway there is a great deal more latitude in that scenario 

 

Stating that a more skilled pilot needs balance to defeat a less skilled pilot is silly. 

 

 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

So...  What airfields will the 262 be able to operate out of?   Will they be historical?  Is it a few airfields or in fact, many?  Will runways too short to launch the 262 from be restricted or will pilots be allowed to take their chances?

Just how good is the P-38 at accurately glide bombing at high altitudes from long distances?     

 

I guess we'll find out.  

[Rafcio]

9 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

Just how good is the P-38 at accurately glide bombing at high altitudes from long distances?     

I guess we'll find out.  

 

If you want, bomb the P-38 from a great height. I will use the A-20 for this. On this TAW P-38 Attacker has the role of Il-2 on the Eastern Front map.

[FTC_DerSheriff]

Yeah the plane set is puzzling. 

 

Like S.Entendard already said it, with the experience of playing Kota or CB this planeset looks more than odd.

 

For the first map a planeset of CBs "A bridge to far" would be quite fitting. A-8s, G-14, Spit Mk IX @18lb, P-51 @67" Tempest @9lb and the P-38.
2nd map you either can unlock all planes and mods, or even make a 3rd, with the 2nd having the D-9 and DB K-4.

I would advise against bringing the Me 262 at all into the mix since the gameplay isnt benefiting from the plane. Even the "but muh history" nuts have to agree that the sky wasn't filled with me 262s. And the Me 262 would be at the current planeset(0/1) as common as the Bf 109 F-4 on the usual 2nd Map of TAW.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by DerSheriff

[[=PzG=]-Southernbear]

Just to give my 2 cents:

 

The 262 is a wonderful machine, my favorite plane in the game currently...but she does have her weaknesses...for instance, the Fuel valve became standard pretty early on but I will say keep it disable for this...as it adds more challenge to her...Shes fast yes, but only carries 2 250s or 1 500Kg bomb...compare that to the A20 and you aren't really on the same level even despite it's speed. Assuming a "worst case scenario" with the whole team jumping into the 262s at once...I still doubt they would be able to out bomb A20s, P-38s and P-47s using bombs and rockets...if the Ar 234 (with its 1000Kg bomb good for anti Industry) was already here then you may have an issue but its not and thus its a discussion for another time. As a fighter its very good at bomber intercept but as much as I personally am able to push it outside it's boundaries...realistically it isn't great at much else....it can do dog fighting but assuming the allied Pilot has situational awareness then he should be able to dodge out of the way. 

 

If the Germans use 262s on mass then the Allies should learn by example and use Tempests and A20s on mass (20s for the bombing campaign and the Tempest as its more then enough to catch from a dive and do combat with a 262) at the end of the day TAW requires Team work...

 

As for the plane set, I would've personally liked to see something slightly earlier (so pretend its Normandy using the Rhineland map) but so far its good...the P-39, G6 and *possibly* the 190 A5/U17 Jabo should probably be available however.

Edited March 8, 2020 by [=PzG=]Southernbear

[JuliMonkey]

As much as I love the Me 262 (it‘s my profile picture?) I don‘t think it should be allowed on TAW. This plane can‘t be shot down if the pilot knows a little bit how to fly and that‘s not the point behind TAW.

[[=PzG=]-Southernbear]

Well it can if you have a Tempest with any extra altitude over you

[=SFG=Cactus]

I'm confused as to why the Ju-52 isn't in there...

 

Regarding the 262, with the mechanics in TAW, I really don't believe that the 262 should be included. Maybe if it had it's own "special" criteria that needed to be met in order to obtain one, just to make it somewhat less obnoxious. The thing with the 262 is the incredible survivability while still being aggressive in combat. I wouldn't expect to see any Luftwaffe pilot flying anything else as soon as they are available, and they won't be losing it anytime soon. Just my 2 cents.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by =SFG=Cactus
coherence

[JuliMonkey]

21 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-Southernbear said:

Well it can if you have a Tempest with any extra altitude over you

If the Me 262 pilot doesn‘t notice you there is a chance that you get him, but if he notices the Tempest there is a really small chance that he can kill the Me 262. The Tempest pilot also only has one attempt to get the 262, after that he has the climb again.

Edited March 8, 2020 by JuliMonkey

[FTC_DerSheriff]

34 minutes ago, JuliMonkey said:

a chance

Correct. A chance. I flew the 262 a few times. And was just cruising around low. Got bounced a few times. I noticed that by the tracers going by my cockpit and the plane behind me getting smaller.

Edited March 8, 2020 by DerSheriff

[Chivas_Regal]

I think that the use of Me262 should necessarily be limited only to airfields with long hard-surfaced runways

[=/Hospiz/=MetalHead]

Don't forget that this edition is considered as a large scale test rather than a fully fleshed campaign. The planeset is just a placeholder, quickly put together just to have something to test on. If there will be large imbalance, you won't suffer for long as the second map will be over in two or three days. Next one will probably be much more polished, based on the feedback gathered during this one.

[FTC_DerSheriff]

1 minute ago, =/Hospiz/=MetalHead said:

Don't forget that this edition is considered as a large scale test rather than a fully fleshed campaign.

That is correct. But it doesn't need to be unnecessarily painful.

[JGr8_Rammzess]

Please add Bf109G6

[Talon_]

The spitfire situation is very odd, 150 octane excluded when in reality it was the only plane in our planeset that took off from the continent bases on 150 grade while the Mustangs only used it when flying from the UK. It was also flying until and after the last days of the war.

[=/Hospiz/=MetalHead]

Just now, DerSheriff said:

That is correct. But it doesn't need to be unnecessarily painful.

War is always painful, but this time pain will be rather short.

I'd say that we can get a taste of alternative history where german industry was able to put jets into mass production.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Calm down guys. Here is why:

 

The Me262 is very capable in very good hands. Those hands are few. Kuprinski is easily one of the best pilots here, which is why his performance is amazing but also anecdotal. 

 

Most pilots I have met are endangering themselves when flying the Me-262 and perform far worse than they would in a Bf-109 or Fw-190. At best, some take off and then emit chem-trails at high altitude, or dive into dogfights where they don't hit the wide side of a barn and kill themselves by blacking out or speeding too fast during attack dives. Or botch the landing.

 

So, the majority of LW pilots in Me-262s are more of an asset to the USAF. They will neither be able to be effective, nor hold the plane properly over several sorties.

 

 

As this TAW is more like a test-run, according to Kathon's own words, let's see if my estimation stays true in the TAW environment as well.

 

My biggest worry is not that they are OP, but that they fly circles at 8km and lose their side the campaign.

 

 

10 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

I think that the use of Me262 should necessarily be limited only to airfields with long hard-surfaced runways

 

Agreed.

Edited March 8, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Talon_]

I'll say this from experience as a server admin - Allies don't log in to fight too many 262s at once.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

They lose their Mojo when they see Me-262s? 

[=/Hospiz/=MetalHead]

2 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Me-262 production in 44 to beginning of 45:  1433 units, FYI.

Yes I know that there was a quite large number of them made, but there were problems with spare parts, engines and fuel, due to severed logistic chain and damaged industry, and that kept many 262s out of service. Of course those problems kept other types on the ground as well. It's not that only 262 was a rare sight in the last year of the war - any german plane was a rare sight in 1945.

[=GEMINI=IngegnerTommy]

Covid-262

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

3 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

They lose their Mojo when they see Me-262s? 

 

Let me guess who is flying axis...

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

1 minute ago, Operation_Ivy said:

Let me guess who is flying axis...

 

Simulated Combat Group. We prefer K-4s and D-9s though. See you soon cowboy, in my Revi. 

[HR_Tumu]

 

as i expected... m262 for everybody....

 

Is well know TAW non need be historical and i agree..... but is funny see.... when blue side have to dance with most ugly..... 

me262 for everybody....

 

Ok i think TAW is limited for a one map for me..... I no have problem to combat in underplane... i do practically all the war... but inclusion of jets.... it too much. I think i waist my lifes on second map... trying vulching something over enemy arifields.... 

 

I hope this go fast.

 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

2 hours ago, =L/R=Rafcio said:

 

If you want, bomb the P-38 from a great height. I will use the A-20 for this. On this TAW P-38 Attacker has the role of Il-2 on the Eastern Front map.

 

The 38 carries some big eggs that go boom bigly.  It certainly can accurately glide bomb from a fairly high altitude.  It also has some very powerful follow-up guns if the bombs don't succeed  The point I was making was that if 262s are going to be had, then let them die on the ground.   

 

Combat Box restricts it until the wheels are off the ground. TAW does not.  

3 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

 

 

I personally only just tarted….

 

 

 

I know it's just a typo and nobody like a spelling Nazi, but I lolled at this.  

[Retrofly]

If the plan is to test then we should just start with map #2 and see how it goes.

 

I would have liked to have seen earlier planes for map #1, P40's , Spit MkV and the equivalent for Axis, but I get they are trying to re-create BP somewhat historically. Iguess whenever Normandy lands we will see this kind of progression for the western campaign.

I'm not thrilled at the thought of fighting G14's in a P47, ?

[=TU=Cookie-Monster]

Why there's no BF-109 G6 and G4 or also an Fw-190 A5 on the map?

[Blackhawk_FR]

10 minutes ago, Retrofly said:

If the plan is to test then we should just start with map #2 and see how it goes.

 

The more options are tested, the better the test is. I mean, it seems normal to test a map without 262, and a map with 262. 

Anyway, when it's about 262, whatever you do (zero 262, very limited 262, slightly limited 262, ...), people will always complain.

[Pikestance]

I do not get the incessant whining about the 262. Allied pilots learn how to deal with the 262 virtual pilots with limitless life and ability to learn from death can certainly do the same. As said, simply jumping into the 262 won't make you invincible. One day i actually listen to a group of guys talking about it. All experience pilots from what i can tell, and only one of the actually flew it and not with huge confidence either. 

 

@69th_Mobile_BBQ who wouldn't want to be a tart. They are delicious. And I am very sweet. 

[JuliMonkey]

41 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

I do not get the incessant whining about the 262. Allied pilots learn how to deal with the 262 virtual pilots with limitless life and ability to learn from death can certainly do the same. As said, simply jumping into the 262 won't make you invincible. One day i actually listen to a group of guys talking about it. All experience pilots from what i can tell, and only one of the actually flew it and not with huge confidence either. 

 

@69th_Mobile_BBQ who wouldn't want to be a tart. They are delicious. And I am very sweet. 

It doesn‘t make you invincible but it makes you almost unstoppable as long as you keep your speed up.A unexperienced pilot can perfom well in a Me 262 with the simple trick „speed is life“. However in order to shoot down a Me 262 with a tempest the pilot needs to know what he is doing and has to strike in the right moment. In my opinion if you get shot down in a Me 262 by an enemy plane you either made a serious mistake or didn‘t look around enough.

Edited March 8, 2020 by JuliMonkey

[FTC_Riksen]

6 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

You must think I fell off the turnip truck this morning? Is the history lesson for my benefit (I would hope not) or others. Moreover, the most common plane in the inventory was the G-6, not the G-14 according to the inventory. Group I did, however fly the G-14 instead of the K-4. Anyway, the date given is for the second map. When was the offensive? if prior to the use of the K-4, then we will need access to the G-6.

 

Wrong again mate. Do not know about you falling off any truck but you should consider doing some research first. Here comes another one for ya:

- Estimated numbers of delivered G14s for that period is 1835;

- Estimated numbers for the G6s is approximately 686 and most were the AS type not the one we have in game;

- Estimated numbers of G10s were about 2539;

- Estimated number of K4s were around 1600.

 

These numbers are estimates and the real figure is probably lower than that but it helps us understand the most delivered models to the front lines. So, if you leave your bias attitude aside and reasonably look at the data above, you should see that your claim that the G6 models were the most numerous ones is again just plain wrong. In addition, at this point, the most important model of the G6 being produced were the AS and not the early version we have in game so your claim we should have more G6s in this scneario is wrong ... Again ...
 

6 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

If you think the ratio argument bothers me, it doesn't. As I said, it is what it is. If you want to reenact an historical encounter, it is farce to change the ratio. Sorry, that just what it is. 

The issue is slightly different if you creating a fictional battle within a historical context. There, you can play a little round, but you shouldn't manipulate the factors to the point is becomes gamy or gimmicky. Anyway there is a great deal more latitude in that scenario.

 

So let me see if I understand your point. You want it to be as historical as possible as long as it does not affect you using superior planes in the game? It's ok to let players use the planes because they were historically there but if we apply historical conditions that affected their availability then it is not ok and consider this as a game? Lol. I'm sorry but you cant fool anyone here. We all know your type. Have fun in TAW Wehraboo.

[SCG_Syn]

The 262 is the la5fn of the east in 1943. You can't kill it if he does everything right. But he won't be able to kill you if you fly right. The la5fn also gets the advantages of being a prop instead of an early jet, that is, high acceleration, good maneuverability, and engine durability both from damage and use that a pilot of a jet just doesn't get. 

[Alonzo]

1 hour ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

I do not get the incessant whining about the 262. Allied pilots learn how to deal with the 262 virtual pilots with limitless life and ability to learn from death can certainly do the same. As said, simply jumping into the 262 won't make you invincible. One day i actually listen to a group of guys talking about it. All experience pilots from what i can tell, and only one of the actually flew it and not with huge confidence either.

 

Have you ever actually played TAW? Pilots do, in fact, have limited lives. 262s are not going to be doing any bombing. They'll pair up with regular props, harass opposing fighters draining their SA and forcing them to turn often, and the regular props will mop up. 262s will make an occasional kill, but the effect of needing to look for them and dying if you fail to check six literally every 5-6 seconds will be the major factor. Allied pilots will die, be demoted back to Grunt, lose their streaks, and, if they lose their overall 3 lives that are replenished only 1 life every 20 hours, be done for the night. The server will end up 22 blue (or however many the "no opposition" limiter allows) who will ground pound with impunity and win the map.

 

Combat Box has like 6 total 262s available on some of our missions, with that availability spread out over the course of 2.5 hours and with anyone allowed to take the plane, so you get jokers like me who instantly flame out or lawn dart. And even with that amount of limiting the Allied complaints about the plane are enormous.

 

I love TAW and I think the team are talented and have produced great stuff. I think they'll figure this one out.

[FTC_DerSheriff]

39 minutes ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

The 262 is the la5fn of the east in 1943. You can't kill it if he does everything right. But he won't be able to kill you if you fly right. The la5fn also gets the advantages of being a prop instead of an early jet, that is, high acceleration, good maneuverability, and engine durability both from damage and use that a pilot of a jet just doesn't get. 

Oh common. A plane which is 20-30kph faster* on the deck than the next adversary cant be compared with a plane that is faster in straight line than the nVe speed of most adversaries. Most of the time you have 200kph overhead in level flight to the next enemy.

*The FN isnt even that much faster than the Fw 190 A-5 if full power is used. 11kph difference. And the fw 190 is faster higher up.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by DerSheriff

[JG7_X-Man]

Question - Is anyone else having issues with the TAW mission planning map?

When I click on it - all the objects are moves to the bottom right in one blob.

[SCG_Faerber]

One tip for the plane set would be to add the FW190 F-8/G-8 as attacker and limit it to the jabo role, and make the bombs on the fighter version (the A-8) locked

Same could be made for the allies with the P47D 

 

[Ricoon]

same problem here with the map on taw...

 

[JG7_X-Man]

Guys - what's the deal with the map? Cleared cache same issue.

[=LG/F=Kathon]

1 hour ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Question - Is anyone else having issues with the TAW mission planning map?

When I click on it - all the objects are moves to the bottom right in one blob.

1. Yes, there is something wrong with it and I will check it.

 

2. Me-262 on the map #2 will be limited and not available on every airfield.

Edited March 8, 2020 by =LG=Kathon

[FTC_Riksen]

Just now, =LG=Kathon said:

1. Yes, there is something wrong with it and I will check it.

 

2. Me-262 on the map #2 will be limited and not available on every airfield.

 

Have you considered the Spitfire issue?

 

Thank you!