Developer Diary, Part 88 - Discussion

[voncrapenhauser]

12 months or so. Of course, Early Access program will begin before that. You won't have to wait 12 months to be in the cockpit of the new planes. Just like with BOS.

 

Jason

 

Not sure it will be on the map, but I have not discussed the details with Loft yet. Since the Germans did not reach Moscow proper I am not sure it is necessary.

 

Jason

Thanks for the heads up J.

[BlitzPig_EL]

You ain't seen nothin yet...

 

 

Based on what exactly?

 

Jason, will we wait a year to get the P40?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I'm wondering what the price of BoM will be.  Bos is currently out of my price range, but if both games were included in the $68/$110 (the canadian dollar is quite low currently ) price tag, it wouldn't be hard to justify a purchase.

 

However, if offered at the same price, these games would be far, far too expensive for the average IL-2 fan.

 

Can anyone help me out with this? 

I understand your concerns over pricing but when you take a look at some other flight Sims out there it can turn out to be a mighty expensive business. 10 planes in one particular game (DC something or other  ) would set you back the best part of $450. Because it's a fairly niche market the price of Sims it seems are always going to be relatively high in comparison to more mainstream games. You can always opt for the standard game and then maybe pick up the premium planes when they happen to go on sale.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

So you're saying that I, as a Premium founding member, supporter from the beginning, someone who drank the kool-ade, who paid close to $100 two years ago, is now getting ripped off??? Wait a minute. Someone else is getting it cheaper? After I've played now for what? A year and half or so? I feel so... so used.

 

Not at all .... look at it this way ... you bought $20 worth of coffee so the Dev's could put in LONG hours towards this fine product.

 

Chief

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Based on what exactly?

 

Jason, will we wait a year to get the P40?

To hell with the P40 what about Hurricanes!

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

To hell with the P40 what about Hurricanes!

Yeah, and what about Aircobras ? 

[DD_Arthur]

Wheres my 262?

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Perhaps we all need to study for the battle AFTER Moscow to see what aircraft might be in it, huh?

 

Chief

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Perhaps we all need to study for the battle AFTER Moscow to see what aircraft might be in it, huh?

 

Chief

Chief, everything depends what will they take as a Battle of Moscow. The timeframe is under the dispute, even simple articles on wikipedia mention that. If the end would be like on wiki (7th January 1942) than even P-40E and Mc.202 shouldn't make it, but as we see they are here. So I assume we might see some spring operations. 

And certainly Aircobra I and Hurrican could make it here

[Brano]

Loft wrote that there will be Moscow on the map,but it will not be possible to bomb it...  

[Jason_Williams]

Jason, the ground forces didn't reach it. But air forces did, Luftwaffe dropped quite a bit of ordnance there including incendiary bombs.   

Besides, it would be simply shame not to see the Moscow. I mean, its like the CloD would not include the London (and we know German tanks didnt make it through La Manche). I hope you understand what I mean

And Moscow at that time had some unique appearance, which we cant see now so I would be simply glad for seeing it in game.

 

Hiro

 

The team has never been fans of building entire metropolises. I don't blame them. We take flak for that, but it takes an enormous amount of resources and time and is not fun for our engine to render. It's not my call on how this is done and since I haven't spoken to Loft about it I don't now what exactly he has planned. I know the basic history that Moscow was bombed and the ground war got pretty close. Original IL-2 didn't include a map with Moscow on it and the ROF map doesn't have Paris on it either. I'm pretty sure the guys will focus on the frontier that leads up to Moscow where the majority of the air and ground war took place. The Battle of Moscow is not my personal favorite spot on the Eastern Front, but the plane set is cool which opens up other potential scenarios elsewhere. The whole Barbarossa time period was a route for the most part, but the desperate nature of the early battles on the Soviet side are interesting to me. What will be fun to see is how the nimble I-16 fights the 109. It's been my experience that us simmers always fall back into turn fights even though we shouldn't if in a faster, superior plane like the 109. I bet some LW pilots online will try to turn fight with the beer can and pay a price.

 

It would be great to be able to build all theaters with all major big cities, but the team is forced to operate with the budget, time and resources they have.

 

Jason

Based on what exactly?

 

Jason, will we wait a year to get the P40?

 

I don't know when the P-40 will be available. it might be the last one ready, that's up to the team. We have a good amount of references to build her as you'll see next week. I'm keen to have it be an accurately modeled pane for obvious reasons. There seems to be a historical question as to the availability of WEP in the P-40 during the war. It adds a decent boost, but the original documents we have seem to not mention it was available. This is one of the dilemmas we face when we research stuff.

 

Jason

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 The whole Barbarossa time period was a route for the most part, but the desperate nature of the early battles on the Soviet side are interesting to me. What will be fun to see is how the nimble I-16 fights the 109. It's been my experience that us simmers always fall back into turn fights even though we shouldn't if in a faster, superior plane like the 109. I bet some LW pilots online will try to turn fight with the beer can and pay a price.

I-16 is not only nimble but also has a good power to weight ratio which made it a good aircraft in climbs and acceleration. It should have a very good chance to fight in vertical maneuvers. One thing I recall that it had to be handled gently, due to unusual design any violent maneuvers ended with spin. This was easily exploited by the Japanese Ki-27s as they could turn even better, had a lower stall speeds and superior performance. This was also exploited by the Finns who tended to execute a sharp roll and go into dive, which could not be followed by I-16. 

But against 109s ... well, it will be truly interesting. I'm only a bit disappointed that this will be Type 24, not Type 28 - the latter one was mostly same machine but had two 20 mm Shvak cannons which would greatly help in this, as I presume getting a firing solution against such enemies will not be easy, so ability to strike them and  badly damage with first hit  would be important here.

 

Nonetheless, thank you Jason for answering

[rolikiraly]

You took that out of context..

 

Please re-read what I wrote and note I went on to qualify that statement by saying 'and only play flight sims when all the Quake servers are full' Translated, not serious flight simmers.

 

Those are the types I don't care about. Hope that helps!

 

 

 

I get it but still, saying that a bigger wallet = more serious and mature player is quite wrong. Also i don't like that type of people who put others into 'types' 

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

The team has never been fans of building entire metropolises. I don't blame them. We take flak for that, but it takes an enormous amount of resources and time and is not fun for our engine to render. It's not my call on how this is done and since I haven't spoken to Loft about it I don't now what exactly he has planned. I know the basic history that Moscow was bombed and the ground war got pretty close. Original IL-2 didn't include a map with Moscow on it and the ROF map doesn't have Paris on it either.

 

 

Ouh god. Another really bad design choice. Do you guys have any marketing expert in your team?

Calling a game "Battle of Moscow" and then not even having Moscow in it, that's fuel octane 150 for the haters.

 

Just to be clear, i myself don't care a lot about the City. I see your very limited resources rather spent on accurate FMs, then on 1.000 different buildings, you mostly won't even see. I think that's the proper choice.

But then choosing this theatre..with this name. Sometimes it really seems you wanna make yourself life as hard as possible with parts of the community..

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Yeah, and what about Aircobras ? 

 

 

 

Tough little bird!

[=]VLA[=Ravonmith]

 

 

Ouh god. Another really bad design choice. Do you guys have any marketing expert in your team?

Calling a game "Battle of Moscow" and then not even having Moscow in it, that's fuel octane 150 for the haters.

 

Just to be clear, i myself don't care a lot about the City. I see your very limited resources rather spent on accurate FMs, then on 1.000 different buildings, you mostly won't even see. I think that's the proper choice.

But then choosing this theatre..with this name. Sometimes it really seems you wanna make yourself life as hard as possible with parts of the community..

 

 

Sometimes i thought the same. They do a really great job but their marketing capabilities are .... in great need of improvement. If i would not spent so much time in marketing for consumer discretionary i would build them a better marketing approach for their products.

Nice online presence, nice product, great support by some people of the community via you tube. But since early access a noticed a lot of minor flaws and some major. I wrote about that in one of my early posts. Everything is about communication. About HOW , much more then WHAT.  

 

Let the cat out of the bag in such a small post might encourage some people to complain again.

 

I, for my self don´t care about a major city like Moscow when there is enough other stuff to play with. Although a generic city with only a few landmarks might work?!

 

Looking forward to BoM. Hope they will release the M202 and P40 first since that would bring some extra money. Many people would buy these planes (that fit into BoS). When BoM will be released they also will pay for that, because some time is gone since their last payment and new planes can be explored. Releasing BoM first and their premium planes later will lead to a slight/medium loss in sales due to the fact that most people will not pay for 8 planes AND 2 at the same time, (" 8 are enough to play with for some time"). Releasing them soon would close the gap between BoS (where everybody has played much with the current planes) the incoming map addition and BoM (which will offer enough new planes). Combined with clever sales and bundles ...

 

Could be so much fun planning the product release of all further addons /addins and monetization        

Edited February 15, 2015 by =]VLA[=Ravonmith

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

I get it but still, saying that a bigger wallet = more serious and mature player is quite wrong.

Well than it is a good thing I didn't say that!

 

What I said was the price of the game is nothing compare to the price of the hardware..

 

Also i don't like that type of people who put others into 'types' 

I know, I hate the IRS forms to that ask me if I am white, black, native, other.. I just always leave that blank, but what does that have to do with my post?

[Freycinet]

Thanks for the info and for commenting in the thread, Jason.

[oneeyeddog]

Thanks for the info and for commenting in the thread, Jason.

+1

[Noe]

Que maravilhosa notícia!!!

Já posso encomendar meu Premiun????

[Feathered_IV]

A bit cloudy.

[Yakdriver]

But against 109s ... well, it will be truly interesting. I'm only a bit disappointed that this will be Type 24, not Type 28 - the latter one was mostly same machine but had two 20 mm Shvak cannons which would greatly help in this, as I presume getting a firing solution against such enemies will not be easy, so ability to strike them and  badly damage with first hit  would be important here.

 

cannons potentially maybe possibly (...) coming as an unlock. 24->28

most people will not pay for 8 planes AND 2 at the same time

 

but they WILL pay to get rid of the unlocks...?

there is more to BoM than planes.

[AndyHill]

It's good to see continued development of the franchise. However, I would suggest the developers take a good look at the unlocking thing and the campaign design in general. I can understand how paying for extra planes is a working business model, but I would be very worried about the amount of people who are happy about the ability to skip a central element of the core gameplay with their wallets. Just sell the planes separately and base the campaign around the actual events that occur during the missions and their effect on the following ones.

[Bearcat]

 

 

Ouh god. Another really bad design choice. Do you guys have any marketing expert in your team?

Calling a game "Battle of Moscow" and then not even having Moscow in it, that's fuel octane 150 for the haters.

 

Just to be clear, i myself don't care a lot about the City. I see your very limited resources rather spent on accurate FMs, then on 1.000 different buildings, you mostly won't even see. I think that's the proper choice.

But then choosing this theatre..with this name. Sometimes it really seems you wanna make yourself life as hard as possible with parts of the community..

 

 

He might have a point there.. but in any case..

[XQ_Lothar29]

 

Tough little bird!

 

This aircraft i like a lot.

[Venturi]

Should be an V-1710-39 (F3R) Allison for early production p40d through e, 1100hp @ 3000rpm, 

 

Also (source unknown): http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/5953-north-american-na-73p-51-mustang-performance-timeline/

TAKE A LOOK>> http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/6099-p-40de-performance/

 

Engine: Allison V-1710-39: 1,150 hp. (I have a notation that power is at 46.2"Hg manifold pressure. This engine was cleared by General Motors Corp., Allison Division for 60"Hg use somewhere before December 1942. BUT in the operational field of combat it was being pushed to 66", 70" and sometimes even 72"Hg boost at low levels. This produced about 1,570 hp.@ 60", 1,770 hp.@ 66"@ 2,000 ft. and 1,780 hp.@ 70"@ S.L.

 

August 26, 1943: Letter from Headquarters, Northwest African Strategic Air Force APO 520, to Commanding General APO 650 concerning the Mk.I and Mk.Ia with V-1710-39: " The British have operated at full throttle at sea level (72"Hg) for as much as 20 minutes at a time without hurting the engines. According to them, the Allison is averaging 1500 hours between bearing failures as compared to 500 to 600 hours for the Merlin. The Allison, they have found will drag them home even with the  bearing ruined."

 

December 12, 1942: Letter from Allison Division concerning the V-1710-F3R(-39)  and V-1710-F4R(-73).:

1, 60"Hg boost has been agreed on by Allison: ~1,570 hp. @ 3,000 rpm.

2. 66"Hg boost is the boost control setting used in the Middle East: ~1,745 hp./S.L., 1,770 hp./2,000 ft.

3. 70"Hg boost has been used by some pilots for prolonged periods in Australia: 1,780 hp./S.L.

 

Mk.I: Four sent to USSR......V-1710-39: 8.8:1 (8.77:1 on some documents) supercharger gear ratio.

 

P-51: April 9, 1943......154th Observation Sqn.......V-1710-39/3,000 rpm.: 1,150 hp./44.5"Hg./T.O., 1,150 hp./43.9"Hg./10,800 ft.

 

---

-HOPE THIS HELPS - WEP ALMOST CERTAINLY COULD BE USED, just a matter of finding out if the Russians experimented (I'm sure they did). This sounds like modifying a boost blow off valve.

Venturi

 

I'm keen to have it be an accurately modeled pane for obvious reasons. There seems to be a historical question as to the availability of WEP in the P-40 during the war. It adds a decent boost, but the original documents we have seem to not mention it was available. This is one of the dilemmas we face when we research stuff.

 

Jason

Edited February 16, 2015 by Venturi

[Venturi]

Also... 

[Feathered_IV]

 

Ouh god. Another really bad design choice. Do you guys have any marketing expert in your team?

Calling a game "Battle of Moscow" and then not even having Moscow in it, that's fuel octane 150 for the haters.

 

Just to be clear, i myself don't care a lot about the City. I see your very limited resources rather spent on accurate FMs, then on 1.000 different buildings, you mostly won't even see. I think that's the proper choice.

But then choosing this theatre..with this name. Sometimes it really seems you wanna make yourself life as hard as possible with parts of the community..

I agree. Choosing Battle of Moscow as the official title will guarantee a lot of bad press if the city isn't there (not that I need it personally).

Call it Gateway to Moscow, Advance on Moscow. Something that implies the push towards the city but not the the gaining of it. A little bit of creative thinking now will save you a [Edited]storm that you will surely wish you avoided later.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Bearcat

[FlyingNutcase]

He might have a point there.. but in any case..

 

Without Moscow on the map, it would be technically better to have it "Battle for Moscow" but that wouldn't quite fit the pattern. The want-to-hate'ers will love this, lol. The rest of us will just understand and enjoy. :-)

 

Edit: Or as per Feathered

Edited February 16, 2015 by FlyingNutcase

[EAF_Stuntman]

Thank you very much for announcing you will expand into the Battle of Moscow theatre, one of the most interesting and if not nerve wrecking times of the entire Second World War / Great Patriotic War.

 

I look very much forward to fly MiG-3 and MC. 202 Folgore.

 

Question: This new unlock modifications button - if I press this button, will all future unlockables for all future aircraft also be unlocked (except skins)? Or is it only for aircraft released up to this point?

 

Can I safely click on this button, knowing that the future planes of Battle of Moscow, such as MiG-3, will be fully unlocked (except skins) in the future?

 

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited February 16, 2015 by EAF_Stuntman

[Feathered_IV]

Might make a good competition to come up with a name. Defense of Moscow perhaps...

[pilotpierre]

"Prelude to the Battle for Moscow"

[SYN_Ricky]

"Drive to Moscow"

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

As Germans didnt reach the Moscow, maybe to paraphrase the certain movie "A Moscow Too Far" 

[Jupp]

~S~ Everyone,

 

More than likely there are legal concerns about renaming / rebranding the product, so it's no doubt going to be Battle of Moscow, if only for continuity as well.

 

If you've already invested time and money on promotional designs and such I'm sure you'd stick to your guns too. This is not Christmas time at Burger King after all.

 

I can say that it's exciting to see how things are leveling out now and that there are some really excellent prospects for a brighter horizon in the future of this simulator.

 

Just so there's no confusion in it, here's a screen shot from an old mod of CFS3, which also was widely panned by the masses, but still does happily reside on my PC.

 

Upwards and Onwards!

 

Russian P-39q Airacobra from the European Theater of Operations Mod for Combat Flight Simulator 3 (*shown here for the purpose of flight simulator history / exhibition only).

[FlatSpinMan]

Is their some famous operation name they could use?

[unreasonable]

The German attack on the Moscow front in late 1941 was called Operation Typhoon: probably cannot use that, people would complain they were misled when they find there is no Hawker Typhoon....

[Feathered_IV]

Maybe. While we're on the subject, I can't believe BoS didn't have any jokes about Uranus.

[kendo]

 

 

Ouh god. Another really bad design choice. Do you guys have any marketing expert in your team?

Calling a game "Battle of Moscow" and then not even having Moscow in it, that's fuel octane 150 for the haters.

 

Just to be clear, i myself don't care a lot about the City. I see your very limited resources rather spent on accurate FMs, then on 1.000 different buildings, you mostly won't even see. I think that's the proper choice.

But then choosing this theatre..with this name. Sometimes it really seems you wanna make yourself life as hard as possible with parts of the community..

 

 

Honestly, I really disagree with you that this is a bad design choice. Anyone with historical knowledge will know that the city of Moscow itself was on the periphery of the action, unlike Stalingrad. You say yourself about preferring resources to be spent on other things such as FMs, and Jason mentions the performance hit from rendering all the buildings - and presumably Moscow is a much bigger city than Stalingrad.

 

Original il-2 Moscow map did not model the city.

 

And I wouldn't want to see a half done BAD model of Moscow. COD included London on their map, but I thought it was a disappointing and unconvincing effort overall. A lot of effort was spent modelling famous individual buildings to a high standard, but the integration into a believable representation of the city just wasn't there - and for enormous effort and I'm sure a huge resource hit when playing.

Edited February 16, 2015 by kendo

[BlackDevil]

I would just include the outskirts of Moscow. That wouldn't take too much resources, and wouldn't feed the haters. And it would be historical correct for the title.