Can we have a chat about Marketing and PR?

[Mysticpuma]

Firstly, let's start at how this has come about. Discussion began in the Typhoon skins 02 thread.

Rather than have to read through the entire thread, here are a few choice points relating to the V6 announcement, which was years in the making and also comments made in the Fortresses FW reveal thread :

 

major_setback posted a selection of skins and the feedback was as follows;

 

Mtnbiker1998: "These are some good looking skins, still a mystery why they chose not to use any of them for the announcement trailer..."

 

Feldgrun: "Maybe they're trying to keep expectations low... Some of those screenshots really are excellent."

 

9./JG52_J-HAT: "But it's already there. It's in game scree shots and footage. It's not a pre-render or something still in testing or whatever. 
IMHO it's more like confirming what many people think, that CloD is a bad looking, bad overall old game not worth their time. When it's completely the contrary. And not showcasing the best it's got to offer doesn't help with that.
BTW, multiple users on reddit right now asking what they could try out besides BoS and DCS (because of something that happened these past few days). These are the guys that should try out Clod and say holy f*ck, how have I not known of this game before. And have the same reaction when looking at all the promo material.

But nope, the FFW announcement was less than ideal in terms of screenshots and videos."

 

Mysticpuma: " I was referring to the frustration about PR which I have contested for years and been called out for. I believe from your comments you have also reached that frustration.... the frustration being this is a damn good flight sim, so why doesn't the team do everything in its power tell people that!

I absolutely agree with you (Blademeister) on the PR, the first time it should have been called out was the awful official Tobruk video and it's been followed up after all this time with just as good a v6 announcement video. 

These are supposed to be paid for add ons, at least sell them to the community as such. Tobruk and V6 videos fail in so many aspects, purchasers would be hard pressed to think it was a professional add on."

 

Dagwoodyt: "Why announce a FFW DLC when the Tiffy is the only in-game footage available? The Tiffy is mostly shown zoomed way out and the clip apparently does not include trueSKY. I wonder whether the ~1 minute of Tiffy footage might have considerable age on it. The rest of the announcement vid just provides images of aircraft models that seem little more than a "gleam in the eye". A concern, based on the FFW announcement"

 

 

In the actual announcement thread:

 

5th_Barone: "Maybe would be a good idea to put the video as a public one so everyone on your YT channel can see it, and if possible please check font dims and bold text. It's a bit of a punch in the eye (I guess the problem may be the copy and paste from ATAG forum)."

 

No.54_Reddog: "I like the reference to the "more precise ...damage....modelling" - and then the shot in the video of the HE111 wing coming off as soon as it's hit and the train playing dead. Nice touch."

 

Boo: "The early in game footage of the tiffy looks a little 1946 but, to date, TFS has produced good models and cockpits so i see no reason why that shouldnt be the case here.

Hopefully more map work can be done. Looks good in the air but not so good and dated when on the ground- especially the grass.

The announcment was a bit dry in terms of presentation style and the video even more so. Ive seen many well polished official and fan made videos for Clod so it can be done and hopefully will going forward."

 

5th_Barone: "Apart from the very low level of the marketing shown in the announcement....... (so waiting time for few words and a dry video?)"

 

Koziolek: "I wonder what " detailed campaigns" mean?  Just scripted campaigns or a campaign mode?"

NO.20_Krispy_Duck: "I will admit the 20mm guns blowing up a wing immediately and flipping a locomotive onto its side were a little cartoonish."

 

Mtnbiker1998: "Will be interesting to see what comes of this for sure. Still hard to get hyped for anything CLOD considering how long we've been waiting for the VU/VR update... Plus, trailer looked pretty underwhelming, that Typhoon looks very WIP. It'd be fine for a mod, but for an official DLC that'll probably cost $50 minimum? I dunno."

 

1PL_Husar-1Esk: "Plane moving on the ground looks bad, physics is odd same as in the original CLOD, yes Typhoon model must be WIP looks like a plastic toy."

 

major_setback: "In the video: That is a WiP skin made by the 3D modeller.

The skins will look like the ones in the screenshot in the link below.

There are 20 custom skins already made, with individual nose art / emblems (spread over the two variants), and maybe more to come. No doubt you will see more screenshots and videos soon."

 

DD_Arthur: "Well good luck to Team Fusion on the timeline. ?

Yes, the ‘promo’ video is extremely rough but it’s solid info nonetheless."

 

Boo: "The video needs to be deleted. I really think it does more harm than good."  (they have deleted it!)

 

Dagwoodyt: "The TF 6.0 stated timeline is useful for promotional purposes. You know the standard disclaimer is still operative: staffing is part-time. RL invariably intervenes. The main problem is that there is nothing to foster interest in Blitz in the meantime. All that's going to be available for at least the next two years is what was made available in August 2020."

Boo: (in regard to questions about the Dieppe and original CloD map)
"TFS communication? where? So far the only thing I can glean from TFS is that some of the bridges culled when Blitz was released are being put back and some new buildings are being added. Not a new map then. 
The question has been asked several times but not answered. There are lots of reasons why this could be and, whilst its, pointless to second guess on the absence of anything from TFS the lack of engagement doset instill confidence. 

As I understand it from years gone by, the map is more than something you fly over and crash into. The roads and railways and how they interact with vehicles are an integral part of it and were quite badly broken. Thats not something a 4K reskin and speedtree is going to fix. Hence the interest in finding out more."

343KKT_Kintaro: "Boo, if you go back to the announcement (an announcement, to me, IS a communication), you'll read the words "A detailed new 1942 English Channel map". That's what my assumption is based on. In the meantime, TFS will decide if whether or not they consider necessary to bring more precision to what they've already said.."

 

Boo: "I read those words - I also went onto read the words "with added landmarks, updated airfields and 4k terrain, large caliber Coastal Gun batteries, fortifications, minefields and defenses".

"Add" and "updated" are not words I'd expect to be used on a map built from the ground up. If I bought a new car I wouldnt tell people I added car play, updated the interior and gave it an on trend paint job. I'd say "I've bought a new car". 

As I said pteviously theres more to a map than what you see. Im pretty sure those that are interested would not care if it was based on what went before as long as it fixed the landtrack issues over bridges and with convoys. So far all we have is that it will look a little sharper."

These questions are still not answered.

 

 

Now we get to actually marketing a product that will only be available on Steam:

 

9./JG52_J-HAT: September 22nd 2023 "Although this announcement is a bit underwhelming from a marketing point of view I really like the content.

Nice planeset!
Hope the release date doesn't slip too far from what's been announced. Keep it up and we will hopefully see it in a year. 

Would be nice to have a proper announcement on Steam too."

 

Buzzsaw: September 22nd 2023 "We will be creating a page on Steam in the next while."

 

Lorena_Scout: September 25th 2023 "Still no steam update page with the good news for those who doesn't check it out the forums?"

 

So in regards to the team page for Cliffs of Dover, it's a mess.

 

October 10th 2023. There are currently 28 sticky threads and not one of them is the Fortresses announcement.

 

 

On the second page is an unofficial post:

 

 

Simply put, this just isn't good enough.

 

I (and others) have said for a long time that the marketing and PR of the game has been terrible and from the release video (which has now been taken down so posts look very unprofessional that linked to it) which really was embarrasing after all this waiting....it's no wonder the available player base has cratered. So a question. Why was the video removed. Was it because of the feedback and admission it was another poor video release? Will a new one be replacing it or has it been removed and now a void will exist?

 

 

 

Now I'll be honest and say the news that followed the announcement of new aircraft variants in the pipeline was very impressive...it felt like a corner may at last have been turned and the Fulcrum locked doors, now having been flung open, would finally allow news to be posted very two-weeks (be sure). However it appears that is not the case. Simply everything shoved out the door in one go, and now we can wait until the end of 2024 for any news?

 

There have been questions asked of the team in the official announcement thread which are yet to be answered. One would think if someone was announcing a product, they may actually be able to provide some information on it?

 

A simple question. Who is actually in charge of Media and PR? Do you have anyone who can make videos that look professional and can sell your products?

 

@major_setback posted a link to some great skins he has vreated, all created in the sim....so why wasn't any of that used to create a video? It's so simple and easy to do but another huge missed opportunity.

 

The phrase "You only get one chance to make a first impression" has never been beautifully illustrated by the V6 video and lack of quality control. 

 

I hope that whoever creates the Fortresses/FW video is actually brought in by TFS as a professional to make the most of the opportunity because whoever did the Tobruk announcement video just doesn't cut it if you want to sell a paid for product.

 

 

 

TFS, please start investing or putting some effort into your marketing and PR. You have a huge update coming at the end of 2024 which given the planeset is almost guaranteed sales with the B17E being flyable. Just don't mess it up, build the narrative and positivity with the community and make sure you update all the Social Media platforms like Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Facebook and Steam!

 

Cheers, Mysticpuma

 

 

 

[Trooper117]

All I know is that good stuff is coming... that's enough for me.

[BOO]

If you take a look at the Oleg videos that have been posted recently you'll see footage from Clod looking stunning. Short, tighly shot sequences with stack loads of background scenery movement.  Same with just about everything DCS puts out.  Long, drfting, screen captures are perhaps the dullest thing you can watch.

 

Look also at some of the fan made GB videos too. They really sell the game.

 

TFS really do need to get as far away from the "I'll do a video tonight" mindset as possible. 

 

If there was a theme I'd suggest it should be more about changing perceptions initally, not launching more of the same.  

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

I've been wondering how Fulqrum let the TF6 announcement be made the way it was. 

 

We waited God knows how long for the announcement because Fulqrum had to approve the word getting out. The publisher, the de facto owner of the game. 

 

So we wait.. And wait. Then it comes.

 

And we get a wall of unformatted text (here at least), a video from who knows what build with graphics that resemble more Jane's WW2 Fighters than Clod and the video gets taken down after 3 (4?) weeks. 

 

No landing page or news for that matter on Steam, THE platform the game is sold on.

 

Soon after the announcement we get a few good screenshots that actually showcase what the game is capable but nothing more. 

And I don't even see the visual update elements in the promotional material. 

 

How come Fulqrum has an interest in getting the content out at the right time but at the same time doesn't care that it was made the way it was.

Vetting the annoucmenet being made but not  vetting its visual content. I guess I will never know. Or maybe I'm over thinking. 

[Gunfreak]

Maybe I should remake my clod vr trailer. Wasn't allowed to share it as it was before all the 3d cockpit were in place and before truesky was added.

But should probably wait for the new speed tree being added.

[No.54_Reddog]

33 minutes ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

I've been wondering how Fulqrum let the TF6 announcement be made the way it was. 

 

We waited God knows how long for the announcement because Fulqrum had to approve the word getting out. The publisher, the de facto owner of the game. 

 

So we wait.. And wait. Then it comes.

 

And we get a wall of unformatted text (here at least), a video from who knows what build with graphics that resemble more Jane's WW2 Fighters than Clod and the video gets taken down after 3 (4?) weeks. 

 

No landing page or news for that matter on Steam, THE platform the game is sold on.

 

Soon after the announcement we get a few good screenshots that actually showcase what the game is capable but nothing more. 

 

And I don't even see the visual update elements in the promotional material. 

 

How come Fulqrum has an interest in getting the content out at the right time but at the same time doesn't care that it was made the way it was.

Vetting the annoucmenet being made but not  vetting its visual content. I guess I will never know. Or maybe I'm over thinking. 

Probably because they don't give a shit, they have zero financial skin in the game and stand only to profit. I'm also not convinced that the whole "fulcrum control the PR timelines" is all that legit. Tbh, would you if you were in charge of TFS sign an agreement that took that control entirely from you? But it does make a really good excuse to divert attention from TFS's proven inability to organise a piss up in a brewery. Idle speculation of course but wouldn't be the first time someone guessed the truth. Far more likely is that TFS need to get some sort of sign-off from them and that as an irrelevance in the grander scheme of things getting someone's attention to do it is difficult.

[Volant_Eagle]

As far as myself is concerned I have to agree with Trooper. However I do see the truth in everyone else's concerns about the PR. Someone who doesn't even know what CloD is may not be very enticed if they see PR that isn't very polished. Especially since there are other contemporary sims available with far more established bases (GB and DCS). First impressions are important. 

 

At this point though I don't think TFS's main concern with these posts is what I would consider "PR". In my opinion PR or advertising is telling the general public about something they otherwise wouldn't have known about in hopes of getting them interested and enticing them to become new customers. In my opinion, nobody on this forum counts as the "public". Everyone here already knows about this sim and either plays or has played it. Many of us will buy any new DLC for this game regardless of any good or bad PR. I think the main purpose of a lot of the content that's been shared over the past month is to appease all the moaning and groaning from the current player base about the lack of information we've had for a while about new content. Now that they finally have the permission to share such information they are doing so.

 

That being said, advertising to the public is still a part of what they're doing now and I agree they need to step up their game. But I just don't see a huge PR push being the wisest thing to do yet anyway (my meaning of PR). The new DLC is still very much WIP. How are they supposed to put together anything even close to the TOBRUK video for this content when most of the planes aren't even flyable yet? Even if they magically could make such content right now, it's still at least a year out from release. I think it's likely a PR campaign starting right now would cause little if any greater interest at time of release than a campaign starting just before, at, or even just after release. So not only is super polished content not always possible right now, it's also likely not worth the extra effort. . . at least not yet.

 

By the way, maybe I'm easily pleased or unimaginative, but what's so terrible about the Tobruk video? It's just actual gameplay from the actual game I would be buying. If the game is good, then what exactly do I need to see beyond that? Super flashy promos can actually make me suspicious.

 

My main concern about a lot of public interest being created in CloD right now, is that a lot of brand new players will start playing it right now, when the game is still not very user friendly (mostly UI issues) and has a lot of quirks and bugs that make it feel unfinished. That could leave a bad taste in peoples mouths and cause them not to take much notice when the new modules finally do get released. I'm sure the UI and a lot of the bug issues will get cleaned up in the VU and/or 6.0, but will new users be so optimistic?

 

6, 9, or definitely 12 months from now do I want to start seeing "polished" content from TFS on 6.0? Yes. Right now though? Not my biggest concern. I'd just like to know what is and isn't to be expected as part of the DLC.

[Mysticpuma]

6 minutes ago, Volant_Eagle said:

1)The new DLC is still very much WIP. How are they supposed to put together anything even close to the TOBRUK video for this content when most of the planes aren't even flyable yet? 

 

2)By the way, maybe I'm easily pleased or unimaginative, but what's so terrible about the Tobruk video? It's just actual gameplay from the actual game I would be buying. If the game is good, then what exactly do I need to see beyond that? Super flashy promos can actually make me suspicious.

 

3) In my opinion PR or advertising is telling the general public about something they otherwise wouldn't have known about in hopes of getting them interested and enticing them to become new customers. In my opinion, nobody on this forum counts as the "public". Everyone here already knows about this sim and either plays or has played it

1&2) You misunderstood. The Tobruk launch video was made with all the assets that would be released with the paid for add on. There are amateur camera moves with the mouse, poor use of camera angles, paused/freeze frames left in, lack of variety of content (fill a battlefield, not a single vehicle shot up), different lighting, searchlights, night time.... it was so disappointing for a promo trailer to sell the product. 

I am asking that when V6 is sold, please get someone in who knows how to make videos for the launch/sale/promo video. 

 

This was a trailer for DCS made all in game:

 

 

BoX Battle of Normandy expansion :

 

 

 

3) And there we have it. How is this software ever going to grow if it sits stagnant with nothing to show anyone outside of the forums? 

 

The 3rd quote in the first post from J-Hat refers directly from potential players in other forums who are looking for a new playground. Would they be interested in the product from the two videos above, or a half hearted attempt put together 8n a couple of hours? 

 

I mean, why do company's pay to advertise on TV, magazines, cinema, Internet? Because it entices people to be interested in the product. Simply saying "well everyone who needs to know already knows" is never going to progress this forward. 

 

So a quality video or publicity campaign should really be a focus? 

 

 

And also, as we are thinking out loud.... how about putting a lot of resources into the P51 and B17 model..... because of they can get a really advanced version by January.... there's a little TV Show called "Masters of Air" coming to our screens? 

 

I mean heaven forbid I should offer marketing and PR suggestions, but having a reasonably finished B17E would be a useful asset to have available when people are discussing it. 

 

"Hey have you heard of IL2: Cliffs of Dover? It's going to let you fly the B17 and in VR, so you can experience what these guys did as shown in Masters of Air". 

 

But I'm sure that's already been planned ?

[Enceladus828]

@Mysticpuma, @No.54_Reddog, @Dagwoodyt

 

Since you guys are the ones who primarily complain about the lack of PR then how about you become the new PR representatives because you more than likely have the time to post stuff on the forum then it would make sense that if you were the PR representatives you could frequently be giving us announcements and updates about the game. Even if it’s just “We got a new modeller today”, “ We got a new VR Beta tester”, “We’re modelling the tail gunner position of the B-17”, etc., etc., at least we know what’s going on and they’re making progress on the next installment.

[BOO]

1 minute ago, Enceladus828 said:

@Mysticpuma, @No.54_Reddog, @Dagwoodyt

 

Since you guys are the ones who primarily complain about the lack of PR then how about you become the new PR representatives because you more than likely have the time to post stuff on the forum then it would make sense that if you were the PR representatives you could frequently be giving us announcements and updates about the game. Even if it’s just “We got a new modeller today”, “ We got a new VR Beta tester”, “We’re modelling the tail gunner position of the B-17”, etc., etc., at least we know what’s going on and they’re making progress on the next installment.

One of those three was the PR for TFS.

 

You also make the assumption that PR has green light to release anything they want. They dont. The issue, as far as I understand it, has not been that there is noone to relase info but rather there is very little info signed off for release from one month to the next. 

[Dagwoodyt]

I seem to have misplaced the pre-announcement post from ~ August 10 2023. Could someone please post a link?

[No.54_Reddog]

36 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

@Mysticpuma, @No.54_Reddog, @Dagwoodyt

 

Since you guys are the ones who primarily complain about the lack of PR then how about you become the new PR representatives because you more than likely have the time to post stuff on the forum then it would make sense that if you were the PR representatives you could frequently be giving us announcements and updates about the game. 

Oh dear...

[BOO]

Just now, No.54_Reddog said:

Oh dear...

Oh I dunno - Dream Team. 

[No.54_Reddog]

24 minutes ago, BOO said:

One of those three was the PR for TFS.

 

You also make the assumption that PR has green light to release anything they want. They dont. The issue, as far as I understand it, has not been that there is noone to relase info but rather there is very little info signed off for release from one month to the next. 

I think that lack of someone has been an issue since MP departed but the major reason for his departure was the inability for him to actually show anything. Although he's more than capable of correcting me if I'm misrepresenting him.

1 minute ago, BOO said:

Oh I dunno - Dream Team. 

Was more referencing his cluelessness.

[BOO]

4 minutes ago, No.54_Reddog said:

I think that lack of someone has been an issue since MP departed but the major reason for his departure was the inability for him to actually show anything. Although he's more than capable of correcting me if I'm misrepresenting him.

 

Was more referencing his cluelessness.

Id have to agree. Pattle does a good job but i know he has RL committments and Im sure he has the same limitations MP found frustrating. I always found MP had a good eye for making stuff suitably "arty". That seems lacking of late.  

 

One of the things I think makes for a bad promo is when the person making it refuses to come out of "game mode". If you look at the DCS video there a lot of action for sure but theres also a good dose of well presented mood shots. The art I guess is finding the right sequence. And it is an art. Not an "oh I'll just..". 

 

I got the "oh dear" BTW but just seeing the "Big3" in lights all together.....:-)  

[Mysticpuma]

56 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

@Mysticpuma, @No.54_Reddog, @Dagwoodyt

 

Since you guys are the ones who primarily complain about the lack of PR then how about you become the new PR representatives because you more than likely have the time to post stuff on the forum then it would make sense that if you were the PR representatives you could frequently be giving us announcements and updates about the game. Even if it’s just “We got a new modeller today”, “ We got a new VR Beta tester”, “We’re modelling the tail gunner position of the B-17”, etc., etc., at least we know what’s going on and they’re making progress on the next installment.

I got kicked out of the team when I was doing the Marketing and PR, so I am well aware of the issues. Not in a position to go back after that, so someone else will need to step up. 

I mean only had 30 years working in Newspapers, speaking with Editors, photographing people from every walk of life and 20+ years of video editing, creating footage, editing IL2 footage in my free time... but obviously there are better suited people out there ?

[Mysticpuma]

47 minutes ago, No.54_Reddog said:

I think that lack of someone has been an issue since MP departed but the major reason for his departure was the inability for him to actually show anything. Although he's more than capable of correcting me if I'm misrepresenting him.

Was more referencing his cluelessness.

I was removed from the team after being accused of 'leaking' information to people not in Team Fusion. 

However when I was removed unceremoniously from the team for being 'the leak'.... the leaks continued ?

 

Rather than admit he was wrong, Buzzsaw just said "there must have been more than one", however only I was removed from the team.... so while the lack of content to show was frustrating, I certainly pestered for it. I also set up all the social media accounts they use (and don't use) now as well as getting over 3000 followers on their Facebook account. I organised interviews with National magazines in various countries along with scouting out new talent for the team. 

 

I barely did anything to help ?

19 minutes ago, BladeMeister said:

MP, please take my quoted posts out of your main OP. There is no need to make a federal case of who has said what, not at least where I am concerned.

 

S!Blade<><

Blade, it's on the Internet, posted by you and an attributable quote. This is about marketing and PR and your quote is a summary of it. I don't understand why it doesn't belong there? 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Mysticpuma

[BOO]

11 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

 

I mean only had 30 years working in Newspapers, speaking with Editors, photographing people from every walk of life 

PUMARAZZI!!

[DD_Arthur]

2 hours ago, BOO said:

Look also at some of the fan made GB videos too. They really sell the game.

 

TFS really do need to get as far away from the "I'll do a video tonight" mindset as possible. 

Part of the problem is that it’s   technically quite difficult to make a movie with the tools CLoD offers.

It’s actually got easier in recent months I believe by the long awaited ‘record’ button being incorporated into a TFS update.

An awful lot of those excellent fan made videos of BoS exist because of the “I’ll do a video tonight” mindset. The BIG difference is the truly excellent range of options that BoS offers movie makers.

What might be have been a fairly average multiplayer dust up on Wings of Liberty can be easily turned into a thrilling combined arms battle by anyone with a modicum of talent.

To do the same with CLoD requires the patience of a Saint.

Several of us have been urging some sort of attempt be made to make the in game trk. recording system to work for years……

 

The reasons for the poor PR since MP left TFS are….the same reasons MP left TFS;  knowledge is power and beware the enemy within….

 

[PO_Baldrick]

With thirty odd years of sim racing and flight experience and several alpha/beta roles my view is generating a load of hype so far from release (which could well slip) is frankly the very worst thing to do. It is way too early and would only serve to frustrate.

 

I totally agree with @Volant_Eagle that the announcement is aimed at existing players keen to know what is coming next and perhaps more importantly that CloD has a future beyond the Visual Update with its new publisher, Fulqrum.

 

 

[BOO]

Just now, DD_Arthur said:

Part of the problem is that it’s   technically quite difficult to make a movie with the tools CLoD offers.

It’s actually got easier in recent months I believe by the long awaited ‘record’ button being incorporated into a TFS update.

An awful lot of those excellent fan made videos of BoS exist because of the “I’ll do a video tonight” mindset. The BIG difference is the truly excellent range of options that BoS offers movie makers.

What might be have been a fairly average multiplayer dust up on Wings of Liberty can be easily turned into a thrilling combined arms battle by anyone with a modicum of talent.

To do the same with CLoD requires the patience of a Saint.

Several of us have been urging some sort of attempt be made to make the in game trk. recording system to work for years……

 

The reasons for the poor PR since MP left TFS are….the same reasons MP left TFS;  knowledge is power and beware the enemy within….

 

Good points. However it is possible (or at least was) given footage of that type from Clod's early days does exist. I assume at the time so did a whole professional team around Maddox though.  I remember the ACG video took a lot of doing but it captured what was good about the game. MJDixon did some good too.

[BOO]

1 minute ago, PO_Baldrick said:

With thirty odd years of sim racing and flight experience and several alpha/beta roles my view is generating a load of hype so far from release (which could well slip) is frankly the very worst thing to do. It is way too early and would only serve to frustrate.

 

I totally agree with @Volant_Eagle that the announcement is aimed at existing players keen to know what is coming next and perhaps more importantly that CloD has a future beyond the Visual Update with its new publisher, Fulqrum.

 

 

Im not sure if we are talking hype now so much as the need to improve the general output. 

[Mysticpuma]

16 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

To do the same with CLoD requires the patience of a Saint.

Several of us have been urging some sort of attempt be made to make the in game trk. recording system to work for years……

 

Me making movies to promo the game... all having to be filmed 'live' because the track recorder has been broken for as long as I can remember ?

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, BOO said:

Im not sure if we are talking hype now so much as the need to improve the general output. 

 

Exactly. 

You build steadily. A simple screen grab from a modeller,, map maker, texture artist.... Takes less than a minute to make and email to the pr guy. Update the community every mo the until mid May. Then go to 2x updates per month until October and by November everything should be in place and a few polishes needed. 

Go to storyboard, make the promo/release video (should take about 2 weeks)... release. 

 

You build momentum nearer the release date. No-one is asking for hype to start now. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Mysticpuma

[Dagwoodyt]

58 minutes ago, PO_Baldrick said:

With thirty odd years of sim racing and flight experience and several alpha/beta roles my view is generating a load of hype so far from release (which could well slip) is frankly the very worst thing to do. It is way too early and would only serve to frustrate.

 

I totally agree with @Volant_Eagle that the announcement is aimed at existing players keen to know what is coming next and perhaps more importantly that CloD has a future beyond the Visual Update with its new publisher, Fulqrum.

 

 

The announcement was accompanied by a YT video since removed. The video likely was intended for a wider audience than active forum members. Seems no principal has stepped forward to take responsibility for handling of the announcement launch.

[Volant_Eagle]

@Mysticpuma I can’t disagree with you that the other trailers look more professional. But I never said the Tobruk trailer was as good as those from other sims. I’m just saying in my opinion it was fine. It gave a good representation of what could be expected in the product and showed plenty of interesting action. The air to air scenes I thought were overall bigger and more intense in the TFS video than in the other two. I admit the ground action was a little lacking in comparison though. It is also much shorter and the camera angles do seem slightly amateur. Maybe I’m going blind but I’ve watched it 3 times now and can’t see a single freeze frame. The other two spent a lot of screen time with just a single aircraft in frame for a close up. I think that’s a good shot but not enough time for it if they want a sub 2 min video. That being said they probably should have gone for longer anyway. 3 to 5 min would have been better and there would have been plenty of time for solitary close ups. Without the 4k update it probably was a good call not to do many close up spotlights though. At least given the competition. Hopefully with the VU that won’t be a concern anymore.
 

I do think that the real advantage of CloD over the other sims is not in it’s graphics though. It has more to do with the FM, the DM, and the much better plane-sets for representing the historical periods covered. I’m not saying it can’t be done well, but those advantages are harder to show off in one quick video than stunning visuals are.

 

I know you know the FFW video is not on the same playing field as the Tobruk video. One is a very first announcement and the other is a launch video. But I do still want to make the point that creating a film anything like the GB, DCS, . . . or even the tobruk films is totally out of the question for FFW when models aren’t even finished. If what was shown in the FFW video really was as far as the models are, then there’s not much else they could have shown. The wing falling off and the train tipping over probably weren’t the best shot choices though. In defense of the wing shot though, it did appear that it was hit in a separate burst from another angle right before the shot which took it off. So it would appear it didn’t actually come completely off the instant the first 20mm hit it. However, that does mean the camera angles were poorly chosen because they made it look that way. Yes, they  could have done better with the announcement video, but honestly I wasn’t even expecting a video for such an early announcement. (Although maybe that’s your point? Better without any video?)

 

As for your 3rd point, I agree that TFS could really benefit from focusing on better PR. This sim has a lot to offer. Even with all it’s problems that still need ironing out, I still prefer playing it over the other two titles. (Granted I do have a slight bias towards early war and don’t play VR…yet). It’s a shame it isn’t more popular than it is. However, I don’t think it’s the PR that can bring it back into the limelight. At least not PR alone. The game is just too darn difficult for a novice user with little patience or technical knowledge to have a chance at enjoying before their attention span runs out. Not to mention other sims offer VR. Until a novice can download this game, set it up, and enjoy playing it, all without ever even knowing that a forum exists for it, this game just won’t be as popular as the other two main titles no matter how awesome the PR is.

 

So yes, I do think PR is a very important piece that is needed for the popularity of this game. It’s just more or less useless until the game is user friendly. Once the game finally gets to that point, and I have confidence that it will (I just don’t know when), then good PR will become very important. But for now there’s only so much it can do.

[Mysticpuma]

@Enceladus828 @Volant_Eagle

This is the sort of stuff I used to create as a promo. 

This was before Blitz and the Source Code, 9-years-ago.

 

[Enceladus828]

3 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

This is the sort of stuff I used to create as a promo. 

Thank you MP for that video, a real shame that promo videos aren’t like that anymore, especially with up-beat music. 

Something to ask is that at this point what do you hope to achieve by constantly complaining about the lack of PR? I understand that you have no desire to come back to TF and be the PR rep. but constantly complaining about the lack of PR just creates a big eye sore for others and imo doesn’t get you far. The best way to resolve this issue is just appoint someone else as a PR rep., one who has more time in their lives than Pattle, Riley and Buzzsaw to give us updates. I would appoint Dagywoodt because he posts things on the forum many times and if he has that amount of spare time then he likely has the time to be a PR rep. to give us updates.

One last question, would you prefer it if every two weeks we got an update, even if it’s not much, just something to say that they’re working on the Visual Update and FFW-D? I’ll pass your response onto Buzzsaw.

 

Cheers.
 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

3 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

I am asking nicely. If you refuse that is your right, but I will ask an admin to do it or delete this thread all together if you don't. It's your choice. My posts are in the the threads I intended them to be in. There is no need for you to import them into this thread. You are not doing anything constructive in this thread, you are merely stirring the pot for no good reason.

 

S!Blade<><

Really??? An attitude like this is why CLoD has never--and will never--achieve its potential as a sim. Mysticpuma couldn't be more right. TF's PR and marketing is worse than even the new IL-2 GB team that hasn't offered a real update that isn't just more content since the release of Normandy.

 

We should all be demanding more from TF. I personally feel like purchasing Tobruk was a waste as the MP community is dead and VR is still non-existent. However, I did that simply to support them in the hopes of them delivering something great that could grow and return the MP community to CLoD. There is a massive opportunity to step in and take players from the broken DCS and the crumbling IL-2 GB. As usual, TF is taking that opportunity...to do basically nothing and a lack of proper promotional materials is a major reason for that.

Edited October 11, 2023 by drewm3i-VR

[BOO]

3 hours ago, Enceladus828 said:

Thank you MP for that video, a real shame that promo videos aren’t like that anymore, especially with up-beat music. 

Something to ask is that at this point what do you hope to achieve by constantly complaining about the lack of PR? I understand that you have no desire to come back to TF and be the PR rep. but constantly complaining about the lack of PR just creates a big eye sore for others and imo doesn’t get you far. The best way to resolve this issue is just appoint someone else as a PR rep., one who has more time in their lives than Pattle, Riley and Buzzsaw to give us updates.
 

Its not the lack of PR (well not totally). Its the standard and the lack of an overall strategy.  There are mods on other sms with better promo strategies. The last video summed up the malais perfectly and whilst people as pointing out that "the tiffy is a WiP", Setback issues a dozen images showing a a great looking model IN GAME within a day. 15 seconds of that instead of the 2 minutes of what we got would have been preferable as a teaser. But, again, even with a full time PR guy, without some serious rethink as to how TFS support their effort, its all for nothing. 

 

I think MP is right to raise it. Why would you think it was preferable to leave it?   I showed my 15 year old the video. I said nothing other than it was a new game. He was genuinely stumped at the notion that a dev put so little effort into it. Im not saying thats true, but thats the impression it left on him. "Is it going to be free?". 

 

 

[No.54_Reddog]

5 hours ago, Enceladus828 said:

Thank you MP for that video, a real shame that promo videos aren’t like that anymore, especially with up-beat music. 

Something to ask is that at this point what do you hope to achieve by constantly complaining about the lack of PR? I understand that you have no desire to come back to TF and be the PR rep. but constantly complaining about the lack of PR just creates a big eye sore for others and imo doesn’t get you far. The best way to resolve this issue is just appoint someone else as a PR rep., one who has more time in their lives than Pattle, Riley and Buzzsaw to give us updates. I would appoint Dagywoodt because he posts things on the forum many times and if he has that amount of spare time then he likely has the time to be a PR rep. to give us updates.

One last question, would you prefer it if every two weeks we got an update, even if it’s not much, just something to say that they’re working on the Visual Update and FFW-D? I’ll pass your response onto Buzzsaw.

 

Cheers.
 

It's already been explained to you it has zero to do with the amount of time available to do the job, and everything to do with the availability of material, access and permission to do the job. As an insider to TFS (I'm presuming by your "I'll pass your response onto Buzzsaw") you should know this. Unless things have very much changed over the years (which I doubt given the conversations with current TFS members I've had over recent days, weeks, months).

7 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

I am asking nicely. If you refuse that is your right, but I will ask an admin to do it or delete this thread all together if you don't. It's your choice. My posts are in the the threads I intended them to be in. There is no need for you to import them into this thread. You are not doing anything constructive in this thread, you are merely stirring the pot for no good reason.

 

S!Blade<><

yes, because blackmail and threats have always worked out so well.

[Mysticpuma]

9 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

I am asking nicely. If you refuse that is your right, but I will ask an admin to do it or delete this thread all together if you don't. It's your choice.

 

S!Blade<><

Blade, if admin did that, it would simply mean that they would remove and delete every thread that people post content from. Every web link, every quote ever made in every post. The quote is a quote by you. Whether it was on here or not on here, you are effectively saying that if anyone posts anything anywhere, it can never be used unless it is authorised by the creator of it? I'm not being unfair here, you posted it and I quoted it. Complaining it is in a thread you don't like isn't the way the internet works? If you don't want posts to be quoted, don't type it in the first place?

 

And as a point of note, I understand the need or want to try and derail this thread from the original point so I'll bring it back on track, I will also ask admin to remove any further off-topic comments

 

11 hours ago, Volant_Eagle said:

@Mysticpuma I can’t disagree with you that the other trailers look more professional. But I never said the Tobruk trailer was as good as those from other sims. I’m just saying in my opinion it was fine. It gave a good representation of what could be expected in the product and showed plenty of interesting action. The air to air scenes I thought were overall bigger and more intense in the TFS video than in the other two. I admit the ground action was a little lacking in comparison though. It is also much shorter and the camera angles do seem slightly amateur. Maybe I’m going blind but I’ve watched it 3 times now and can’t see a single freeze frame.

Here's a breakdown of the issues I see with the video.

Lack of scale, lack of showcasing the new environment, lack of showcasing why this is a big deal, lack of showcasing the size/scale of ground battles that can be made with air support above. 

0:19 seconds: Attempt to try and move the camera by hand resulting in jerky motion and 
unprofessional result.
0:24 seconds: Uses mouse to move the camera rather than fix camera/trackIR/padlock object
0:30 seconds: Uses mouse to move the camera rather than fix camera/trackIR/padlock object
0:32 seconds: changes completely from straight cuts of footage to fade transition of footage.
The footage fades partially to black but before the transition completes, the unfaded version 
of the next clip pops into view.
0:37 seconds: Flyby view exposing the longstanding issue of the broken camera which doesn't
smoothly follow an aircraft, but skips/breaks the flow of motion by 'twitching' off axis
0:50 seconds: Heinkill under attack. Just before the transition there is a pause in the footage that has been left in. 
Watch the footage and you'll see just before the cut, all aircraft motion stops.
0:52 seconds: Attempt to try and track an attack on the Wellington by hand resulting in jerky motion and 
unprofessional result
0:56 seconds: Attempt to try and move the camera by hand resulting in jerky motion and 
unprofessional result.
1m 23 seconds: Fades from impressive motion logo, fades to White, then cuts to black during fade and then cuts to
launch image.

 

Simply put, that was the launch trailer for a paid for product? Hardly sells it?

 

 

 

To clarify, this discussion is about what I see as a very blinkered view when it comes to publicity and driving the product forward. This isn't about self-service but about trying to generate interest in the Simulation, make other simmers more aware and try and improve/bring in a new player base or at the very minimum generate discussion on other forums. 

 

Simple question. How many times have you seen, "It looks fine, but I won't play until VR is available". Who is engaging with these players? VR has become an Urban Myth at this stage. Discussed for 3+ years, still nowhere in sight and yet, there is a large simming market looking for the next product to try. I read regularly of disenfranchised players from other Sims and this is where inroads can be made to generate interest. @Gunfreak has released videos showing VR in action, but where is the team to jump on these guys and share these videos? Where is the active promotional effort?

 

Earlier in the thread it was said (summary) "What's the point in talking about the next expansion, it isn't ready yet". That is the point! You are telling the community and the wider player base "Hey, we are working on this, we are invested in it completely, and it's still underway". Currently, I have seen posts where players on other forums have said, "Is that still going?".

 

The 'secret' squirrel' effort previously of saying nothing and hoping the people asking for updates would 'go away', really wasn't successful but currently who is there as a conduit between TFS and the community? Buzzsaw? Always (understandably busy). Pattle? Not involved any more. Riley? Very occasionally posts and this will only be when Buzzsaw lets him.

 

The latest debacle regarding the launch video says everything you need to know about how much TFS want to promote their work. They don't!

How can a team spend years building V6, constantly be told by 1C and Fulqrum that they can't say anything....and then suddenly they are surprised that they can announce the content of V6....and have a list of aircraft, with barely a year to go and most are only partially built and a video that says "Well we had a spare afternoon, so one of the guys got hold of Windows Movie Maker and created this".

 

The opportunity to capture video from the model maker panning around the turret, the fortress, the P51, the FW-190, then a flyby of the current WiP on the map with the Typhoon....Nope! Everything comes back to the fact WE, THE COMMUNITY want to talk about this, we want to praise it, we want to share the news, we want others to know.....but all we get is half-hearted attempts that show Marketing and PR are absolutely of no interest to TFS and with that attitude, we'll never be able to grow the player base and those who are here now will also steadily fade away. 

 

Maybe I am one of the louder ones here, but I want this to succeed, I really do.....but TFS make it so hard to like their product and even harder to shout about it to other simming communities.

 

Just found a post from 2021 which was another discussion about the frustration of hearing absolutely nothing from TFS:

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Mysticpuma

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

34 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

we'll never be able to grow the player base and those who are here now will also steadily fade away. 

 

In the end it comes down to exactly this. 

 

Everything MP is talking about PR, the problems people complain about I posted in the other threads (and my own POV) , people "demanding" updates... It all comes down to wanting the player base to grow again so n so the game CAN have a future.

 

I've said this before. EAW is still a thing over at SimHQ... I fear if it doesn't change with CloD, CloD too will still be "a thing" in the next couple of years, even with new modules, VR, VU etc. 

[Trooper117]

Know what?... didn't take long did it!

We get some great news that more content is coming, we have a few days of people looking forward and good natured posts, then the same old knives get sharpened and it's daggers drawn again...

Some of you have large axes to grind and can't wait to stir the pot again, can you!

It all degenerates once again to the same people, same crap... take a hard look at yourselves, you should be ashamed.

[Dagwoodyt]

Victory has a thousand fathers, that video....

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

2 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Know what?... didn't take long did it!

We get some great news that more content is coming, we have a few days of people looking forward and good natured posts, then the same old knives get sharpened and it's daggers drawn again...

Some of you have large axes to grind and can't wait to stir the pot again, can you!

It all degenerates once again to the same people, same crap... take a hard look at yourselves, you should be ashamed.

[Volant_Eagle]

2 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Know what?... didn't take long did it!

We get some great news that more content is coming, we have a few days of people looking forward and good natured posts, then the same old knives get sharpened and it's daggers drawn again...

Some of you have large axes to grind and can't wait to stir the pot again, can you!

It all degenerates once again to the same people, same crap... take a hard look at yourselves, you should be ashamed.

Well, true . . . things have taken a negative turn lately and I don’t really care for that too much. . . but this is a forum . . . what do you expect?

 

1) Any platform where random people communicate publicly via text is going to result in people saying things or saying things in a way they never would face to face. Also the reader is liable to infer even more emotion than was intended. I wish it wasn’t this way, but that’s just how it’s going to be as long as humans are humans.

 

2) People that either don’t know about the sim, have no interest in the sim, or have always thought the sim is fine and are happily playing it right now, are very unlikely to even care that a forum exists or not, much less read it regularly, even less likely to post on it. I’m sure I never would have gotten on this form if I had thought CloD was 100% what I wanted. I also never would have gotten on it if I had thought CloD was terrible and never wanted to think about it again. I’m here because I really like CloD a lot and think it has a lot of potential. But that potential is certainly not met and there’s still a lot of quirks that irk me. I want to either find out what the fixes are, or point them out to be fixed. Naturally that type of communication is going to come across very critical at times. And that’s the type of communication I always expect to be prevalent on any forum.

 

Most of the people in this conversation so far genuinely care about this game and are posting because they want to make it better. Yes, it has been coming off a bit harsh lately. But that doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s actually nice to see so many people still so invested in this. 
 

I do feel bad for whoever made the content everyone has been so terribly critical of. They probably don’t feel so hot right now given all the flak. But people saying what they really think is not a bad thing. Even if it might take thick skin and a lot of salt to swallow. How else will things get better? 

[Volant_Eagle]

5 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Here's a breakdown of the issues I see with the video.

I see what you mean now. I finally can see the freeze frame but had to watch it repeatedly at .5 speed to be convinced of it. You certainly have a keen eye for this sort of thing.

 

I guess I had rather rose tinted glasses for Tobruk so I wasn’t a good test audience. I was already forming the opinion at that point that CloD was my favorite sim and since I was very young I’d always wanted to have a good sim officially cover North Africa. All they needed to do was write “CloD” on a patch of sand and I would’ve been sold.

 

I guess that’s kind of how I saw the FFW announcement video too. That plane-set is better than I could have imagined. They could have shown a video of just the plane-set written sloppily on a note card and my jaw would have dropped.

 

Needless to say I’m probably not the guy to be taking on making the trailers 

[BladeMeister]

14 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

Really??? An attitude like this is why CLoD has never--and will never--achieve its potential as a sim. Mysticpuma couldn't be more right. TF's PR and marketing is worse than even the new IL-2 GB team that hasn't offered a real update that isn't just more content since the release of Normandy.

 

We should all be demanding more from TF. I personally feel like purchasing Tobruk was a waste as the MP community is dead and VR is still non-existent. However, I did that simply to support them in the hopes of them delivering something great that could grow and return the MP community to CLoD. There is a massive opportunity to step in and take players from the broken DCS and the crumbling IL-2 GB. As usual, TF is taking that opportunity...to do basically nothing and a lack of proper promotional materials is a major reason for that.

An attitude like this is why CLoD has never--and will never--achieve its potential as a sim.

 

You are such a joke. LOL!

no LMAOROF!!!

Let me guess, you feel 'entitled' right?You've been cheated? Get a job dude and maybe a life while your at it.

Nice job MP, you stirred it real good. I am sure your chosen few here will demand you keep it up because they are 'entitled' to nothing less than you making an arse of yourself. LOL, I have said it before, but Trooper has said it now and I agree, you all should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

S!Blade<><

[LukeFF]

Alright, this has gone on long enough. Everyone, please remember the rules of the site before you hit Send.