Why is there no official Luftwaffe C-47 skin??

[JG27_Abaster]

Hey!
Recently, I was in a museum and came across a small model of a C-47. Surprisingly, this C-47 had a Luftwaffe paint scheme, contrary to my expectations. The accompanying text mentioned that the Luftwaffe sourced their C-47s from pre-war Lufthansa stocks and through annexation of other countries' air fleets or air forces (e.g., "KLM"). For propaganda reasons, the fact that American aircraft were being used by the Luftwaffe was not widely publicized.

Now, my question is: Why is there no Luftwaffe paintsheme for the C-47 in IL-2?

The following points support this idea:
- The estimated number of C-47s in service with the Luftwaffe is around 400-500.
- Transport Squadrons 1 (TP1), TP 2, and TP 3 are known to have used C-47s.
- For comparison, only about 500 FW 190 D-9s and 700-900 Bf 109 K-4s were flown.

It would be great to see the C-47 on the "blue side" as well, especially on multiplayer servers.

 

Horrido!

Abaster

 

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Edited June 30, 2023 by JG27_Abaster
Edited swastikas under spoiler

[[DBS]Browning]

you might want to edit those pics to comply with the forum rules

[David_4555]

Pretty sure there is no need to censor when spoilers are applied

[JG27_Abaster]

Oh no, i really completely missed that. I don‘t really like that thing anyways and we don‘t use it on our skins either, so: here you go, should be fine now ?

Edited June 30, 2023 by JG27_Abaster

[LukeFF]

Swastikas inside spoiler tags are what's expected - that or blurring them out. 

[ACG_Bobo]

I'm convinced that they are historically correct.
All we need is for someone to make the skins, they don't need to be official.  
Frankly, if you want them historically correct, do them yourself.  IC won't do it with the special hated/illegal/evil symbol and there's plenty of talent out there who will be willing to help.
Would you be happy with Luftwaffe skins that have the 'other' fake symbol?  If so, I think it's fair to lobby IC for correct German marked C-47 skins.
How about it IC?  Gonna give?

[III./SG77-R_Lehmann]

Pretty cool historical fact. I’m sure adding a new official skin for the C-47 wouldn’t hurt not take too much time for the devs?

[LukeFF]

43 minutes ago, III./SG77-R_Lehmann said:

Pretty cool historical fact. I’m sure adding a new official skin for the C-47 wouldn’t hurt not take too much time for the devs?

 

The developers have never been in the business of creating skins of captured planes. Your best bet is going to be a third-party artist creating it.

[III./SG77-R_Lehmann]

43 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

The developers have never been in the business of creating skins of captured planes. Your best bet is going to be a third-party artist creating it.

Well of course, I intend more on the actual implementation by the developers of such skin rather than them making it themselves?

[JG27_Abaster]

7 hours ago, III./SG77-K_Bobo said:

„All we need is for someone to make the skins, they don't need to be official.“

Well, actually, for multiplayer servers an official skin is of course necessary, otherwise people who don‘t have the costum skin(s) downloaded can not distinguish in between an axis C-47 and an allied one..
 

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

The developers have never been in the business of creating skins of captured planes. Your best bet is going to be a third-party artist creating it.

Umm..quite a few of them used to serve in the german Lufthansa before the war, so not every C-47 was a „captured“ one. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by JG27_Abaster

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

2 hours ago, JG27_Abaster said:

Umm..quite a few of them used to serve in the german Lufthansa before the war, so not every C-47 was a „captured“ one. 

 

So, wouldn't that make some of them DC-3 models (which we don't have in-game) that were either kept as passenger transport or converted to cargo transport by ripping out the seating and adding cargo doors?  I'm sure some were actual C-47s used for mail and package delivery but, wouldn't that be a very, very small number?

[JG27_Abaster]

 

53 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

So, wouldn't that make some of them DC-3 models (which we don't have in-game) that were either kept as passenger transport or converted to cargo transport by ripping out the seating and adding cargo doors?  I'm sure some were actual C-47s used for mail and package delivery but, wouldn't that be a very, very small number?

yes and no. Some of the DC-3 of the Lufthansa where converted into C-47s (that´s btw what the accompaining text also tells us). They where not only used as classic transport planes but also for dropping paratroopers.  

Edited July 3, 2023 by JG27_Abaster

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

1 hour ago, JG27_Abaster said:

 

yes and no. Some of the DC-3 of the Lufthansa where converted into C-47s (that´s btw what the accompaining text also tells us). They where not only used as classic transport planes but also for dropping paratroopers.  

 

I should have been more clear.  I was asking if the DC-3s and stock C-47s the LW had were pre-war civilian models. That's why I said "mail and package delivery" for the C-47s.  It's pretty much a given that they would be used for paratroopers once the war got started.  After all, it's pretty much a "natural" for the job.  Even if the Germans didn't know that it was going to be the preferred plane of US Airborne, they would have probably generated the same idea on their own. 

I'm sure for the C-47s, there's not much difference to the models built during the war but, there must be some changes that make the model we have in-game a different series/variant.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Mobile_BBQ

[David_4555]

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

The developers have never been in the business of creating skins of captured planes. Your best bet is going to be a third-party artist creating it.

I find it odd that they've made prototype skins (eg. P-39, MC.202) and skins from the Pacific Theater but not any captured skins. They are quite a niche I suppose. 

[JG27_Abaster]

@Mobile_BBQ by reading through it again, i think i should simply have read it more precicely ? it´s not you, it´s simply me who´s mothertounge is german^^...
Maybe i can add there, that also the "Li-2" - how they called it in russia - used to use different engines (M-62IR), still there is "one"  plane ingame with several different skins.

 

The point is: It was used by the Luftwaffe in relatively high numbers and we do have a second world war simulator here, so i think a Luftwaffe skin would really be appropriate, as it is a fact, that it was used by them!
 

I don´t think we need like skins from the "other side" for every plane, just because the one or the other where captured by the ones or the others, but in this special case we are not just talking about a "hand full" of planes being used by the germans, but a noticable amount of ´em.

 

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, JG27_Abaster said:

Maybe i can add there, that also the "Li-2" - how they called it in russia - used to use different engines (M-62IR), still there is "one"  plane ingame with several different skins.

 

Well, the difference there is that the Soviets were in fact sent US-built C-47s under Lend-Lease. ?

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Well, the difference there is that the Soviets were in fact sent US-built C-47s under Lend-Lease. ?

 

Does that mean that the German DC-3 and C-47 civilian fleet the Germans had before the war were license-built - kind of like a Ford Motor Co. factory situation?

[JG27_Abaster]

Negative! Not licence built! They bought the DC-3 directly from the company and first used it as civilian planes only. 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

5 hours ago, JG27_Abaster said:

Negative! Not licence built! They bought the DC-3 directly from the company and first used it as civilian planes only. 

 

OK so, we definetily don't have those variant models, or their converted forms, in-game, so no skins.

[JG27_Abaster]

 

3 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

OK so, we definetily don't have those variant models, or their converted forms, in-game, so no skins.

…wait what? This doesn‘t seem like a good reason to me, but well…^^

[BOO]

5 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

OK so, we definetily don't have those variant models, or their converted forms, in-game, so no skins.

 

gotta agree with @JG27_Abaster thats not a good reason given whats gone before. There are many examples of offical skins for aircraft models not corresponding to the variant let alone sub variant or even theatre of operations provided. In relation to the captured planes thing, doesnt the JU52 come with a Russian skin? As for fit and fittings there are a couple of offical civvy/vip ones that definately wouldnt have had cargo doors. Theres even a 1cgs fantasy skin for it.. I dont know if the russians had 52s pre war or how many but if they did wouldnt this be a similar case to german DC3s arguably pressed ganged into military service in greater numbers?

 

Perhaps posting links to the actual sources for the numbers quoted in the OP would help the cause. I did some bleary eyed google foo and little sprung out so its clearly not common knowledge.

 

 

 

 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

7 hours ago, BOO said:

 

 1.)  gotta agree with @JG27_Abaster thats not a good reason given whats gone before. There are many examples of offical skins for aircraft models not corresponding to the variant let alone sub variant or even theatre of operations provided. In relation to the captured planes thing, doesnt the JU52 come with a Russian skin? As for fit and fittings there are a couple of offical civvy/vip ones that definately wouldnt have had cargo doors. Theres even a 1cgs fantasy skin for it.. I dont know if the russians had 52s pre war or how many but if they did wouldnt this be a similar case to german DC3s arguably pressed ganged into military service in greater numbers?

 

 2.)  Perhaps posting links to the actual sources for the numbers quoted in the OP would help the cause. I did some bleary eyed google foo and little sprung out so its clearly not common knowledge.

 

 

1.)  I see your point.

 

2.)  Perhaps "not common knowledge" is a reason.  To be fair, 1CGS has also added a wide variety of skins for other planes in past updates.  Keep persisting and maybe you'll get them.  

[JG27_Abaster]

Now i can live with it, @Mobile_BBQ! Thanks for the support, @BOO 

That´s what this threat is to be meant for: Let´s keep persisting!

 

BTW: For the numbers i asked the one and only "ChatGPT", because i didn´t know where to look either. Maybe someone finds a nice source by himself and can post it. But even if not, i mean...there is enough real picture - material, that proofes that C-47s seem to have been quite common in the Luftwaffe. Really not into scratching the swasties from all the picture, so i think everyone can easily google it theirselfes, if interested ?

[Taurus]

Unfortunately through my research I can only account for a handful of Douglas aircraft with the Luftwaffe.

The few from the 21 in the KLM air fleet which carried Luftwaffe codes; (Four KLM aircraft were destroyed by bombing at the start of the occupation.)

 

"Hop"   PH-ALH   ->    PC+EA

"Valk"   PH-ALV   ->    NA+LC

"Moes"   PH-ASM   ->   NA+LB

"Roek"   PH-ASR   ->   VE+RR (Lost Madrid 9th December 1942)

 

Other KLM aircraft were lost in the pacific theatre to Japan.

 

There were only a handful of DC-2/3 aircraft with French and Czechoslovakia carriers. Other Carriers included neutrals Sweden and Switzerland.
The Finnish DC-2's look good but I have not investigated quantities yet.

 

There is a decal set out for a SG+KV on a DC-2.

And a photograph of NA+LA (so from KLM also???)

Edited December 22, 2023 by Taurus

[Trooper117]

Who wants a jerry C-47?... I ''persistently'' say no.  ?

[szelljr]

...happy old times'      ?.     

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by LukeFF
swastikas need to be fully hidden

[jollyjack]

On 6/30/2023 at 1:37 PM, JG27_Abaster said:

Hey!
Recently, I was in a museum and came across a small model of a C-47. Surprisingly, this C-47 had a Luftwaffe paint scheme, contrary to my expectations. The accompanying text mentioned that the Luftwaffe sourced their C-47s from pre-war Lufthansa stocks and through annexation of other countries' air fleets or air forces (e.g., "KLM"). For propaganda reasons, the fact that American aircraft were being used by the Luftwaffe was not widely publicized ....

 

 

 

 

It looks like a DC2, or C-43?  https://internationalaviationhq.com/2021/05/15/douglas-dc-2-little-brother/

Edited December 29, 2023 by jollyjack

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, jollyjack said:

It looks like a DC2, or C-43?  https://internationalaviationhq.com/2021/05/15/douglas-dc-2-little-brother/

 

Nope: http://www.airhistory.org.uk/gy/reg_D-a3.html

[jollyjack]

Thanks, so originally it was a KLM plane, PH-ALV 'Valk', that got stolen by the Nazis.

[JG27_Abaster]

Even if i already mentioned it: The german Lufthansa has had DC-3 before WW2 even started. During WW2 former german civilian planes often where used by the Luftwaffe. So yes, there was captured planes serving in the Luftwaffe (as there was tanks and trucks and stuff as well on allied and axis side) and there have been several pre-war planes, that where (even) legally bought by (in this case) the Lufthasa. 
 

The interesting point is, that in case of this plane we are not talking about a „handfull“ of planes - but quite „many“. I personally would even consider it to be the most used <not german> Luftwaffe-plane in WW2 theatre (of course no source here…). For plastic models there is even the paintsheme availible - just google that stuff yourself. 

 

@Trooper117 In the end you can like the fact that there obviously were many of those planes flying for the germans or not, but that’s the reality, so an official skin would totally make sense in my eyes.

 

btw: @jollyjack i mean i know that that is quite common to use „Nazis“ as a synonym for germans and/or german forces during ww2 - just: I hate that. Not all germans where Nazis, even if they fought under the command of those. Will not get tired to say that

Edited January 2, 2024 by JG27_Abaster

[Taurus]

400 to 500 not found yet? Sources please.

 

So far the accounted tally for DC2/3;

German Civil Aviation Registry (Thanks LukeFF)
D-AAIB    Douglas DC-2-115K    1582    OK-AIB D-AAIB OH-DLA OH-LDA 'Voima' DO-2 'Isoo-Antti'    DLH            
D-AAIC    Douglas DC-2-200    1562    OK-AIC D-AAIC OH-DLB OH-LDB 'Sisu' DO-3 'Pikku-Lassi'    DLH            
D-AAID    Douglas DC-2-211    1565    OK-AID D-AAID VG+FJ    DLH >Luftwaffe    00.08.39        f/l Plotzig due e/f 26.1.44
D-AAIE    Douglas DC-3-220A    2023    OK-AIE D-AAIE    DLH 'Mahrisch-Ostrau'    15.08.39        Destroyed on ground by B-17s Echterdingen 14.8.44
D-AAIF    Douglas DC-3-220A    2024    OK-AIF D-AAIF    DLH 'Brunn'    00.05.39        Destroyed in enemy attack .43
D-AAIG    Douglas DC-3-220B    2095    OK-AIG D-AAIG    DLH    00.05.39        Accident Lyon 28.8.42 ditched Oslofjord after signal flare started fire 21.4.44
D-AAIH    Douglas DC-3-220    1973    OK-AIH D-AAIH    DLH 'Prag'    09.08.39        Crashed on t/o Tempelhof 29.10.40
D-AIAV    Douglas DC-2-115H    1366    PH-AKT D-AIAV NA+LA    DLH    00.05.40        Written off Lammershagen 9.8.40

 

KLM (Out of 21 aircraft registered to KLM)
"Hop"   PH-ALH   ->    PC+EA

"Valk"   PH-ALV   ->    NA+LC

"Moes"   PH-ASM   ->   NA+LB

               PH-ASM   ->   NA+LE (16.05.1940), D-ATJG. Some Dates 27.07.1942, 03.09.1944  2142 (www.key.aero)

"Roek"   PH-ASR   ->   VE+RR (Lost Madrid 9th December 1942)

"Toekan" PH-AKT      ->   NA+LA Wehrmachtsbefehlhaber der Niederlande General Christiaansen RLM71 (Photo Exists)

 

There is a decal set out for a SG+KV on a DC-2.

 

Edited January 3, 2024 by Taurus
Update PH-ASM, PH-AKT

[Heliopause]

The KLM machines were finally paid for in 1942 as they were property of a private company (and had not been used for the Dutch military).

It was 6 DC-2's and 5 DC-3's.