FM: Nieuport 28 manoeuvrability (as reported by Windsock Datafile 36)

[BMA_Hellbender]

@Han and @IAmNotARobot

 

I'm happy to see that recent FM corrections were made to the newly released Siemens-Schuckert D.IV following pilot reports found in its Windock Datafile, as asked by @ZachariasX in the thread linked to below:

 

 

Siemens Schuckert D.III/D.IV (SSWD.III-D.IV, by P.M. Grosz, Windsock Datafile 29, Albatros Productions, Berkhamsted, 1998)

-  The D.III and D.IV spun without warning.

-  Spin recovery was quick and effortless.

 

 

Could the same be done for the Nieuport 28?

 

Nieuport 28 (Nieuport 28, by J. Guttman, Windsock Datafile 36, Albatros Productions, Berkhamsted, 1992)

- The Nieuport 28 had outstanding manoeuvrability and rate of climb.

- Nieuport 28 could outclimb and outmanoeuvre the Fokker D.VII.

 

 

( p. 7 )

 

 

( p. 8 )

 

 

As has been the case since its Rise of Flight release in 2009, the Nieuport 28 FM does not have outstanding manoeuvrability.

 

It is currently able to outclimb, but unable to outmanoeuvre the Fokker D.VII.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by =IRFC=Hellbender
Formatting and screenshots

[LufberyJAA]

For what it's worth, I posted some information on the flight characteristics of the Nieuport 28, mostly from "The Nieuport 28: America's First Fighter" by Theodore Hamady (The Nieuport 28: America's First Fighter: Hamady, Theodore: 9780764329333: Amazon.com: Books). The information I posted is here: 

Here's the relevant parts on handling:

 

Similarly, but with a different emphasis on turns, Hamady quotes several pilots flying Nieuports -- including from Frank Tallman's collection.  Highlights from those notes:

• Center of gravity can be forward or aft depending on how much fuel is in the forward (main) fuel tank. As it empties, the CG moves aft.
• With an aft CG, there is a strong tendency to pitch up, but there is still a slight tendency to pitch up with a forward GC.
• Takeoff performance is "stunning" -- 150 yards to take off at 45 mph with climb at 60 mph. It requires a lot of right rudder.
• Right rudder is required during full-power climbs
• Cruise at power setting 3 gives 85-90 mph and power setting 4 gives 120. There is no elevator trim and ~5 pound of forward pressure is required.
• The elevator is effective throughout the speed range
• Ailerons become very heavy above 90 mph.
• Turns to the left are much faster than to the right <-Note: this is different from what the pilots I interviewed for an article I posted a link to in the other thread, but perhaps I'm reading too much into the "much quicker" description.
• The Nieuport 28 could accelerate faster in straight in level flight than the Spad XIII
• The N-28 "had a well-deserved reputation for agility and handling." It performed chandelles and loops beautifully, but with offset rudder at the top to counteract torque. The power of the Gnome pulled the airplane up and over the top of a loop easily. Stalls were straightforward.
• "Rudder and elevator controls were well-balanced and very effective, but aileron response was not." One of the pilots, Jim Appleby said that "It was easy to get into an Immelmann, but lack of aileron efficiency made it difficult to get out."

 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by LufberyJAA

[BMA_Hellbender]

@Han

 

Apart from the amount of evidence that has been presented over the years (also in the other thread regarding its maneuverability according to @Holtzauge's calculations), please understand that it's the community's general sentiment that this plane is broken and not worth flying.

 

I'm not just saying that, apart from the 1916 SPAD VII 150hp, it was the least flown scout in number of hours on the largest multiplayer server for years in a row (we can't go back further than Winter 2021):

 

Winter 2021/2022: http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?sort_by=-total_flight_time&tour=48&page=1

Spring 2022: http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?sort_by=-total_flight_time&tour=49&page=2

Summer 2022: http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?sort_by=-total_flight_time&tour=50&page=1

Autumn 2022: http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?sort_by=-total_flight_time&tour=52&page=2

Winter 2022/2023: http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?sort_by=-total_flight_time&page=2&tour=54

 

If it's simply your intention to make it a rare machine, because it served only very briefly at the front, then I also have concerning news: the even more rare Siemens-Schuckert D.IV has already overtaken it in number of total sorties this quarter, and it's only been out for a few weeks.

 

Spring 2023: http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/all_aircraft/?sort_by=-total_flight_time&page=2&tour=55

 

Again I understand that the Nieuport 28 was not a great machine and suffered many technical issues, but its historical counterpart simply doesn't resemble what we have in the sim right now. If you give it the attention it deserves, it will very much be like releasing a new plane without having to develop it from the ground up.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by =IRFC=Hellbender

[No.23_Starling]

You should add to that the C++ models from Mr @Holtzauge. His book is the closest thing we have to good science on turn performance.

[Holtzauge]

I was wondering someone could help pin down weights for the Nieuport 28:

 

Different sources claim different empty and loaded weights and I have difficulty making any headway of it all: I have take-off weights between 628 and 738 kg and empty weights between 400 and 450 kg and in addition, I'm not sure if one or two guns very fitted for the different weight numbers.

 

Do any of you have data on this? I mean weights for different configurations? In addition, a weight breakdown showing the empty weight and detailing fuel, oil, pilot, ammo etc. would be great. For the weight breakdown it is of course essential to know if one or two guns was fitted.

 

Does anyone have such data? If so it would be of great help in my simulation work. And if you do find something, please be sure to include the source as well.

 

Thanks! 

 

PS: Book data is fine: I don't have much on the N28, so the more the merrier.

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Holtzauge

[BMA_Hellbender]

3 hours ago, Holtzauge said:

I was wondering someone could help pin down weights for the Nieuport 28:

 

Different sources claim different empty and loaded weights and I have difficulty making any headway of it all: I have take-off weights between 628 and 738 kg and empty weights between 400 and 450 kg and in addition, I'm not sure if one or two guns very fitted for the different weight numbers.

 

Do any of you have data on this? I mean weights for different configurations? In addition, a weight breakdown showing the empty weight and detailing fuel, oil, pilot, ammo etc. would be great. For the weight breakdown it is of course essential to know if one or two guns was fitted.

 

Does anyone have such data? If so it would be of great help in my simulation work. And if you do find something, please be sure to include the source as well.

 

Thanks! 

 

PS: Book data is fine: I don't have much on the N28, so the more the merrier.

 

 

In-game data:

 

 

 

Which is almost the Windsock Datafile data:

 

 

 

As opposed to the Profile Publications data:

 

 

Empty: 531kg

Gross: 737kg

 

 

80kg difference in empty weight is far too much to account for an extra machinegun, or even both machineguns. With ammo, maybe, but that would be part of its loaded weight.

 

Loaded weight difference of 40kg could definitely account for an extra machinegun and ammo.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by =IRFC=Hellbender

[Holtzauge]

Even though the jury may still be out on what weight the two-gun Nieuport 28 actually had IRL, I got the question via mail about how bad the effect of going from 698 to 738 kg would be and if it would still beat the Albatros D.Va? 

 

And the answer is yes, but while the turn time at low altitude is only marginally affected, going up from 13.9 to 14.4 s, the turn time at 5 km goes up from 29.8 to 34.3 s.

 

But even if the turn time at 5 km takes quite a hit going to a 738 kg T/O weight, the Nieuport 28 is still quite a decent turner if you compare it to the others in the second from right column (calculated turn rate values at 5 km) in this post.

[ZachariasX]

I would assume the weights stated on the Swiss N.28 are correct for the disarmed version, see photos here:

485 kg empty, 180 kg max load. I would assume these values come from having the plane on a scale. The plane I photographed is an originally French built post war suplus example that saw extensive use in the SAF after taking the guns away.

 

No way that the game specs of 436 kg can be correct, as that would include guns. That would be some 25 kg, 250 rounds ammo 7 kg. 42 kg fuel and maybe 5 kg oil (?).

 

Makes for 564 kg plus the pilot. That means I can sit in there with good clothes (in case I still fit) and remain legal for takeoff, but barely. It again points to the makings on the original plane are probably hard data and make sense, whereas 436 kg seems to be a very stripped down carcass, if true at all.

 

 

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

@Holtzauge

From "Flying the Old Planes" by Frank Tallman 

 

 

From Nieuport Aircraft of World War One - Crowood

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Holtzauge]

Thanks for the additional data @1PL-Husar-1Esk. It seems really difficult to pin down what the actual empty weights and gross weights were but my current theory is that the 698 kg and 738 kg refer to the the US versions which had an extra 25 lit fuel tank in addition to the main 125 lit tank. The 698 kg is for the one Vickers version, and then adding 40 kg for an additional Vickers plus ammo we get 738 kg for the two gun version.

[No.23_Starling]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:50 AM, Holtzauge said:

Thanks for the additional data @1PL-Husar-1Esk. It seems really difficult to pin down what the actual empty weights and gross weights were but my current theory is that the 698 kg and 738 kg refer to the the US versions which had an extra 25 lit fuel tank in addition to the main 125 lit tank. The 698 kg is for the one Vickers version, and then adding 40 kg for an additional Vickers plus ammo we get 738 kg for the two gun version.

Out of interest, how easy would it be to model her with the extra 40kg?

[Holtzauge]

5 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

Out of interest, how easy would it be to model her with the extra 40kg?

 

I already did: I posted the impact on turn here and while the turn rate at 5 km goes up substantially, the N28 is still a pretty good turner and should still out turn the Fokker D.VII, D.VIII, Pfalz D.IIIa and Albatros D.Va.

 

Speed is basically unaffected, but the climb time of course goes up. In my book I estimated the climb time up to 5 Km at around 20 min at a weight of 698 kg. But now with 735 kg it goes up to around 23 min which tabs better with historical data and also what we have in-game, although in-game the T/O weight is listed at 698 kg with two guns which I think is wrong.