Pulled the trigger on the Varjo Aero ?

[dburne]

2 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

Below is the settings of the Aero software, so I believe that when you said 35ppd you set the setting at Highest, right?

 

Then, could you tell me what are the pixel count that appear in the SS SteamVR slide bar when it is set to 100%?

 

 

If you have a fair amount of enemy ai activity in low level, here the bottleneck could be CPU. So nothing specifically related to the Aero and number of pixel.

The fpsVR tool will tell you exactly what is limiting you (CPU or GPU)

 

No I am running at default (High). Anything higher is SS. For some reason I thought it was 35PPD in the center, Very High was 37 and Highest was 39. Can't seem to find offhand where I read that.  I say in the center because it uses variable resolution.

 

 

 

When I hook the gear back up little later this morning I will report on what Steam VR resolution states.

Edited January 30, 2022 by dburne

[SCG_motoadve]

6 hours ago, Rustedgun said:

everything has a slight fish bowl effect as I pan around

Is this in every game?

In Il2 does changing in game IPD helps at all?

[dburne]

2 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

Then, could you tell me what are the pixel count that appear in the SS SteamVR slide bar when it is set to 100%?

 

 

With High (default) setting in Varjo Base, Steam VR defaults to 150% which shows as 3844x3296 per eye. That is what I am running for the game in both IL-2 and DCS.

[TheSNAFU]

Hey dburne, congrats on the new beastly headset. Out of curiosity, how can you run 3844x3296 per eye at good fps? I recall you were running vive pro 2 at 2800x2800 or thereabouts. Are you using motion smoothing at say 45fps or does the new headset have that much better performance. 

[dburne]

10 minutes ago, TheSNAFU said:

Hey dburne, congrats on the new beastly headset. Out of curiosity, how can you run 3844x3296 per eye at good fps? I recall you were running vive pro 2 at 2800x2800 or thereabouts. Are you using motion smoothing at say 45fps or does the new headset have that much better performance. 

 

Thanks!

Aero does not support motion smoothing or reprojection yet. In IL-2 my fps usually around 65-80. DCS a bit lower, around 38-45. I have DCS locked at 45 through NVCP. I tried locking IL-2 to 45 also but it did not seem to work.

With VR pre-rendered frames set to 2 it seemed to smooth things out some for me. I get a little stutter when down really low but not enough to really bother me. I also run both HAGS and Game Mode on , however I am in Windows 11 and it seemed to help a little.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by dburne

[TheSNAFU]

Ah ok, interesting. Glad your enjoying it! Have fun today. 

[dburne]

I will check out  100% and see how it looks and performs also.

But 100% in Steam VR only shows 3140x2692 per eye. That don't seem right.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by dburne

[dburne]

4 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

Below is the settings of the Aero software, so I believe that when you said 35ppd you set the setting at Highest, right?

 

 

 

Now I see where I read it. In the Varjo Base Software.

High ( Default) shows 35 PPD.

Very High shows 37 PPD.

Highest shows 39 PPD.

And then there are lower settings as well.

Edited January 30, 2022 by dburne

[Rustedgun]

3 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Is this in every game?

In Il2 does changing in game IPD helps at all?

 Yes, this is in every game and changing the IPD does not seem to alter this.

[BigC208]

Aero looks very seductive but going to hold off for now. I need glasses and have corrective lenses in my G2. G2 has a small sweet spot but I’m now used to that. I can read all gauges, dogfight and recognize aircraft’s without using identifiers so it does everything I need it to do. I’ve forced myself on a 2 year equipment lock if it’s working as advertised. About a year to go before I start looking around again. There’s also something like value for money. Aero is 5X what my G2 cost if I add the basestations. If the development was stagnant it be one thing but new equipment comes along every 6 months depreciating the old equipment overnight. 

[chiliwili69]

5 hours ago, dburne said:

it uses variable resolution

 

I think the Varjo Aero has the foveated rendering capability for only for "native" applications, but not to the ones which are supported via OpenVR which work in stereo rendering mode:

https://varjo.com/use-center/get-to-know-your-headset/getting-the-perfect-image-quality/

[dburne]

3 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

I think the Varjo Aero has the foveated rendering capability for only for "native" applications, but not to the ones which are supported via OpenVR which work in stereo rendering mode:

https://varjo.com/use-center/get-to-know-your-headset/getting-the-perfect-image-quality/

 

Ok I will take your word for it then... in the meantime I am so enjoying this thing.

 

[chiliwili69]

5 hours ago, dburne said:

With High (default) setting in Varjo Base, Steam VR defaults to 150% which shows as 3844x3296 per eye.

Thank you for giving these details.

 

So, do you mean that changing the settings in the Varjo software (High, very High, etc) then it is changed automatically the %SS in SteamVR?

or can you move the %SteamVR independently of the Varjo software?(if this is the case you can try Highest in Varjo software and 100% in SteamVR)

 

Now I start to understand the internal SS which is applied in the Aero.

It should be like that:

 

4 hours ago, dburne said:

But 100% in Steam VR only shows 3140x2692 per eye. That don't seem right.

 

Yes, it is exactly right those numbers. Look at the table above.

The calcs are in the "SS pr device" tab of the spreadsheet of the SYN_Vander result spreasheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gJmnz_nVxI6_dG_UYNCCpZVK2-f8NBy-y1gia77Hu_k

3 hours ago, dburne said:

Highest shows 39 PPD.

 

By the way, could you please report what numbers shows SS SteamVR slide bar (at 100%) when you pick the Highest setting in varjo software?

[dburne]

23 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

By the way, could you please report what numbers shows SS SteamVR slide bar (at 100%) when you pick the Highest setting in varjo software?

 

4148x3556.

[dburne]

I will also tell you guys, the one thing you absolutely give up with this headset is vertical FOV. To get the headset best image clarity means wearing it kind of low on the face. This is great for being able to glance down and see those sharp clear instruments across the whole dash without moving the head one iota, but above your eyes you run out of FOV and must move your head up to see more above you in the sky. So beware of this and take it into account when considering spending this much on the Aero.

 

It would have been nice if it had a little better vertical FOV, but I guess that is part of the trade off to get that crisp clear awesome image. I have several hours in now in both IL-2 and DCS and have no regrets. But I am more of a how the image looks kind of guy - at least to me it means more than the FOV.

 

@chiliwili69 Due to you choosing Index over Reverb G2 or Vive Pro 2 due to the FOV, you would probably have a hard time dealing with the FOV of the Aero. But man is that image sweet.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by dburne

[dburne]

I have been so busy these last few days with getting Aero tuned and lots of flight time and testing, I had not yet checked out how working on my desktop in VR would be.

Holy crap!!! It is so clear and sharp, text very easily readable, no problem browsing and reading forums or working on desktop. 

Of all the headsets I own this is the first one I can truly say I would have absolutely no problem working with it on my desktop in VR.

 

 

 

 

And something that reviewer pointed out that is good to know, with the Aero already having support for eye tracking/foveated rendering if and when any of our flight sims support it, the headset will be ready for it.

Edited January 31, 2022 by dburne

[Drum]

With the desktop software of Varjo, can you watch the gun camera film in 3D?

[Picchio]

I'm a bit ignorant, so forgive my questions... so, is it correct to assume that until the game is updated to support foveated rendering, to run the Aero at high (native) PPD settings will approximately equal pushing a very high resolution with any other "normal" visor, in terms of raw performance? I'm also curious about the difference its lenses actually make, coupled with the higher display resolution. Is their design only important because of the possibility for foveated rendering?

[chiliwili69]

13 hours ago, dburne said:

4148x3556.

 

Thanks, now it is clear how the Aero manage the pixels for every resolution mode combined with SteamVR %SS:

 

 

Now the question is: What is best in terms of visual, High with SS=100%, or Very High with SS=76% or Highest with SS=58%?

 

Or putting the same amount of pixels than the G2 at 100% (19.5 Million), what is best, High with SS=116%, or Very High with SS=88% or Highest with SS=66%?

 

I don´t know if these internal modes of the Aero are just another way to introduce SuperSampling, if this is the case the visual result will be identical. But perhaps those modes are doing something else. Perhaps, the varjo support people would be the best people to ask this. They for sure will know what is best in terms of visuals (and performance).

11 hours ago, dburne said:

I will also tell you guys, the one thing you absolutely give up with this headset is vertical FOV. To get the headset best image clarity means wearing it kind of low on the face. This is great for being able to glance down and see those sharp clear instruments across the whole dash without moving the head one iota, but above your eyes you run out of FOV and must move your head up to see more above you in the sky. So beware of this and take it into account when considering spending this much on the Aero.

 

It would have been nice if it had a little better vertical FOV, but I guess that is part of the trade off to get that crisp clear awesome image. I have several hours in now in both IL-2 and DCS and have no regrets. But I am more of a how the image looks kind of guy - at least to me it means more than the FOV.

 

@chiliwili69 Due to you choosing Index over Reverb G2 or Vive Pro 2 due to the FOV, you would probably have a hard time dealing with the FOV of the Aero. But man is that image sweet.

 

Many thanks for giving this honest feedback. Yes, vertical FOV is an important thing for situational awareness and the Index has a good vertical FOV. I have the money in the pocket but I think I will pass for now. My hopes are with a future Index 2 this year. But it is quite uncertain.

Edited January 31, 2022 by chiliwili69

[Picchio]

2 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

I don´t know if these internal modes of the Aero are just another way to introduce SuperSampling

 

What else could they be doing? PPD should be the end result of screen size (fixed), resolution (dynamic) and viewing distance (fixed)... or not?

Edited January 31, 2022 by Picchio

[dburne]

1 hour ago, Picchio said:

 

What else could they be doing? PPD should be the end result of screen size (fixed), resolution (dynamic) and viewing distance (fixed)... or not?

 

Yes it is my understand the Default High setting is no SS. All others are.

Then though there is Steam VR, it defaults to 150% (at least for me). I have reduced to 130% and it is still gorgeous.

Edited January 31, 2022 by dburne

[Picchio]

8 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Yes it is my understand the Default High setting is no SS. All others are.

Then though there is Steam VR, it defaults to 150% (at least for me). I have reduced to 130% and it is still gorgeous.

 

How can it perform better than the G2 at the same resolution, if foveated rendering is not supported by the game yet?

[dburne]

8 minutes ago, Picchio said:

 

How can it perform better than the G2 at the same resolution, if foveated rendering is not supported by the game yet?

 

Believe me it does - not a lot but certainly some - and I am not the only one reporting this. I am not technical enough to explain the why.

[dburne]

5 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

Many thanks for giving this honest feedback. Yes, vertical FOV is an important thing for situational awareness and the Index has a good vertical FOV. I have the money in the pocket but I think I will pass for now. My hopes are with a future Index 2 this year. But it is quite uncertain.

 

Not to tempt you but just saw this on Discord by an Index user who now has an Aero:

 

Quote

I've just had my first taste of my Aero in MSFS (previously an Index user) and although it takes a while to make sure you have the correct position on your head, without doubt this is a major leap in visual quality and as yet, an quantified improvement in performance. MR is off but only rarely any micro stutter. Colours are more vibrant. Yes FOV is down in both Hrz and Vert but as others have said the improvement in visual clarity over most of the view more than compensates with much increased immersion. In MSFS I have not noticed any distortion. With the headset in the "wrong" position, the first thing that I notice is chromatic aberration which is easily solved with a reposition of the headset. All in all a great improvement.

 

And note even this Index user noted the increase in performance.

I think the performance folks are getting with the Aero is one of the surprising things with the headset.

Edited January 31, 2022 by dburne

[Picchio]

But we must find a logical explanation, hehe...

The user here reports a whole different prospect, including a comparison with the G2 on the same system: 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Picchio

[dburne]

1 hour ago, Picchio said:

But we must find a logical explanation, hehe...

The user here reports a whole different prospect, including a comparison with the G2 on the same system: 

 

Could well be if he still had all that WMR software installed...

[WIS-Redcoat]

14 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

 

 

Many thanks for giving this honest feedback. Yes, vertical FOV is an important thing for situational awareness and the Index has a good vertical FOV. I have the money in the pocket but I think I will pass for now. My hopes are with a future Index 2 this year. But it is quite uncertain.

 

I don't know man, if you have the money this headset is pretty darn great.  If there was something else announced I might give pause... but I would not wait another year.

Edited January 31, 2022 by WIS-Redcoat

[Varibraun]

8 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

My hopes are with a future Index 2 this year. But it is quite uncertain.

 

39 minutes ago, WIS-Redcoat said:

I don't know man, if you have the money this headset is pretty darn great.  If there was something else announced I might give pause... but I would wait another year.

 

My dilemma exactly now hearing from you guys that I trust about the Aero in IL-2.  If only there was an ETA on the "Deckard," but I bet the estimate of 1 year out for eventually delivery is probably right.

 

Does anyone know how far out delivery is on the Aero for those ordering now vs the preorders? 

[Patricks]

11 minutes ago, Varibraun said:

 

 

 

Does anyone know how far out delivery is on the Aero for those ordering now vs the preorders? 

 

Varjo still states 3-4 months, but my guess is closer to 3..

[chiliwili69]

8 hours ago, Picchio said:

What else could they be doing?

 

Probably those modes are just pure SS, and they included in the Varjo software to support other native applications not using SteamVR (where you can adjust SS).

 

There are two ways to know that for Aero owners:

 

- Ask Varjo support (easiest)

- Take though-lens pictures and compare them.

 

Even if the modes are just SS, the way those pixels are handled with Varjo software+SteamVR could produce potentially different performance. To know that there are two ways:

- Ask Varjo support (easiest)

- Run SYN_VANDER benchmark with different but equivalent in total pixels and compare them.

 

6 hours ago, dburne said:

Yes it is my understand the Default High setting is no SS. All others are.

 

I think there is not an exact definition of "no SS". All headsets introduce certain SS with respect the physical display because the image displayed in the physical display is streched to counteract the lens magnification. Depending on the panel size, distance, IPD and type of lens some headsets need more internal SS than others. That´s why the physical display pixels (2880x2720 per eye in the Aero) are never the same than the SteamVR pixels at 100% (3140x2692 per eye in the Aero with High mode 27PPD).

 

With the G2 for example you have a physical display of 2160x2160 per eye, but SteamVR at 100% report 3162x3093. And that´s why for performance reasons the people decrease that to 70% or 80% and still have a good quality.

 

At the end, independently of the headset or the modes of the headset, we should look at the total number of pixels. And this is what it counts for performance (GPU load).

7 hours ago, dburne said:

Then though there is Steam VR, it defaults to 150% (at least for me). I have reduced to 130% and it is still gorgeous.

 

The default values shown in the SteamVR slide bar are theoretically based on the GPU model and the frequency (90Hz for Aero). I am a bit surprised that SteamVR suggest 150% for the High mode of the Aero, this is about 25Milliong pixels! Even for a 2090 this is quite a lot.

 

Do you remember which were the SteamVR SS default suggested values for your previous VP2 (ultra or Extreme mode) or for the G2?

[chiliwili69]

6 hours ago, dburne said:

And note even this Index user noted the increase in performance.

 

The only thing that could explain that is the MSFS supports foveated rendering mode in the Aero. But I don´t know that.

 

In IL-2 I have 80fps 99.9% of the mission time. I doubt with the Aero I could get more. But thanks for your input.

[dburne]

40 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

The only thing that could explain that is the MSFS supports foveated rendering mode in the Aero. But I don´t know that.

 

In IL-2 I have 80fps 99.9% of the mission time. I doubt with the Aero I could get more. But thanks for your input.

 

No MSFS 2020 does not.

 

However the Aero does support the Open XR runtime as does MSFS2020. I got very good results in it with my Reverb G2 using Open XR. Have not tried the Aero yet, should get around to checking it out one day this week if I can tear myself away from IL-2 and DCS.

In IL-2  with the Aero my fps is in the 70's in decent weather flying PWCG campaign, 60's in heavy weather but still very good experience.

I have many hours in now with the Aero.

Edited January 31, 2022 by dburne

[Picchio]

Sigh... this thread is becoming a bit confusing, although I understand the enthusiasm for a new, advanced visor.

@chiliwili69 I hope you'll be able to continue your established research and share new knowledge!

[dburne]

1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

 

In IL-2 I have 80fps 99.9% of the mission time. I doubt with the Aero I could get more. But thanks for your input.

 

I reduced my Steam VR resolution from default of 150% to 126%. This is 3524x3020 per eye according to Steam VR.

Flew a PWCG Campaign mission - low altitude patrol, skies were party cloudy - maintained 80-85 fps during the entire mission and very smooth.

 

7 minutes ago, Picchio said:

Sigh... this thread is becoming a bit confusing, although I understand the enthusiasm for a new, advanced visor.

@chiliwili69 I hope you'll be able to continue your established research and share new knowledge!

 

Sorry I confuse - just trying to share my experience from someone who is actually using the headset. And yeah I guess a bit excited.

Will be more than happy to stop.

Maybe some other Aero users will chime in at some point.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by dburne

[Varibraun]

42 minutes ago, dburne said:

Sorry I confuse - just trying to share my experience from someone who is actually using the headset. And yeah I guess a bit excited.

Will be more than happy to stop.

Maybe some other Aero users will chime in at some point.

 

Don't stop Don, keep it coming - I really appreciate hearing from everyone on this headset.  From the excited users (especially those comparing to the previous highest resolution headsets), to the hard tech analysis that @chiliwili69 and others here will provide along the way.  I do look forward to hearing from some other early adopters here (I can't remember if @SCG_Fenris_Wolf ordered one), to see if I will jump off the fence.  Thank you all! 

[DD_Arthur]

9 hours ago, Picchio said:

 

How can it perform better than the G2 at the same resolution, if foveated rendering is not supported by the game yet?

 

You seem to be under the impression that Varjo owners on these boards owe you some sort of technical explanation.

 

These sort of questions should be directed to Varjo themselves.

 

To Don and all new Varjo users posting here; thank you very much for taking the time to do so and please carry on.

Appreciate it?

[dburne]

Thanks guys will do!

[Picchio]

@dburne@DD_Arthur

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound excessively demanding! My observation was just general and not addressed to anyone in particular. Don't mind me, carry on with the tests!

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

1 hour ago, Varibraun said:

 

Don't stop Don, keep it coming - I really appreciate hearing from everyone on this headset.  From the excited users (especially those comparing to the previous highest resolution headsets), to the hard tech analysis that @chiliwili69 and others here will provide along the way.  I do look forward to hearing from some other early adopters here (I can't remember if @SCG_Fenris_Wolf ordered one), to see if I will jump off the fence.  Thank you all! 

I have ordered it last year, and it's due end of February Bestware mentioned. I don't believe for a minute there'd be a performance improvement. The points mentioned here, like fixed foveated rendering and openXR are not supported by IL-2, so I don't see how this could help, especially since the other headsets on the market are compatible to openXR (the successor to openVR) as well.

 

I am certain chiliwili's posts and already prepared benchmarks will assist us in running some benchmarks of the Aero against the G2/Q2 while upholding ceteris paribus. If we want to see anything regarding performance differences here or there, I'd recommend him as the first source and guy to go-to.

 

It does not matter if a hundred users claim online that they feel performance would be better. It is what had been hyped by YouTubers and is uncritically repeated. We need facts, and those can only be found through chiliwili's benchmarks.

[dburne]

 

1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

I have ordered it last year, and it's due end of February Bestware mentioned. I don't believe for a minute there'd be a performance improvement. The points mentioned here, like fixed foveated rendering and openXR are not supported by IL-2, so I don't see how this could help, especially since the other headsets on the market are compatible to openXR (the successor to openVR) as well.

 

I am certain chiliwili's posts and already prepared benchmarks will assist us in running some benchmarks of the Aero against the G2/Q2 while upholding ceteris paribus. If we want to see anything regarding performance differences here or there, I'd recommend him as the first source and guy to go-to.

 

It does not matter if a hundred users claim online that they feel performance would be better. It is what had been hyped by YouTubers and is uncritically repeated. We need facts, and those can only be found through chiliwili's benchmarks.

 

That's right guys, the experience one actually gets that is actually using the freakin headset with the sims matters not one iota. Hell no.

No one here was claiming foveated rendering or Open XR was working for IL-2. Check the reading comprehension please.

Have fun with Chili's benchmarks! How the hell he is benchmarking a headset he does not even have but putting up conjecture on is beyond my lowly comprehension.

 

Enjoy the show!! I have had enough. Have fun projecting and crunching numbers, I will be flying and having an absolute blast.

Sheese...

 

Btw I am not the first to talk about actual slight performance improvement as compared to Reverb G2 or Vive Pro 2. Check around.

Chili - have fun telling everyone how Aero actually is without even having it! 

Screw this. That is enough for me, that is what I get for trying to share information. Plenty of other forums available.

Edited February 1, 2022 by dburne