Air battles over Dieppe Landings 1942

[453=SGII_Wotan]

Hi

 

Will the town of Dieppe be featured on the Normandy Map, I know nothing of French geography or even if Dieppe is in the area of Normandy. However if it is it could be utilized to cover the air battles over Dieppe in 1942, after all we have most of the plane set all ready

 

Poiter  

[LukeFF]

Yes, it should be there. 

[453=SGII_Wotan]

Thanks Luke

[AEthelraedUnraed]

11 hours ago, IISG2_Wotan said:

I know nothing of French geography or even if Dieppe is in the area of Normandy.

It is, but in a different part of Normandy and some 100km away from the D-Day landing zones. It's definitely well within the boundaries of the map.

 

That said, it is slightly unclear to me currently what the boundaries of the map are. There's two official maps on different parts of the site:

Spoiler

From: https://il2sturmovik.com/news/511/pre-purchase-battle-normandy-yak-9-yak-9t-hurrican/, and:

From https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/56307-announcing-battle-of-normandy/.

 

Anyone knows what the right one is? I think the second one, as I seem to recall Jason saying something like he extended the map a bit more to the south, but I cannot find that post. Also, the second map seems to be a bit more recent. @LukeFF, do you happen to know which is the right one?

[SYN_Vander]

23 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

It is, but in a different part of Normandy and some 100km away from the D-Day landing zones. It's definitely well within the boundaries of the map.

 

That said, it is slightly unclear to me currently what the boundaries of the map are. There's two official maps on different parts of the site:

  Hide contents

From: https://il2sturmovik.com/news/511/pre-purchase-battle-normandy-yak-9-yak-9t-hurrican/, and:

From https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/56307-announcing-battle-of-normandy/.

 

Anyone knows what the right one is? I think the second one, as I seem to recall Jason saying something like he extended the map a bit more to the south, but I cannot find that post. Also, the second map seems to be a bit more recent. @LukeFF, do you happen to know which is the right one?

 

Second one is more recent. Dieppe is still within the boundary. Amiens is not sadly.

Edited September 17, 2021 by SYN_Vander

[BlackSix]

Close to the second map but changes are possible.

[danielprates]

Was it a significant event though? The air support, I mean. The landing itself lasted for only a day. Could be worth a couple of missions.

[SYN_Vander]

4 minutes ago, danielprates said:

Was it a significant event though? The air support, I mean. The landing itself lasted for only a day. Could be worth a couple of missions.

 

Yes, it was a huge air battle!

 

https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1347&context=cmh

 

See page 16:

Edited September 17, 2021 by SYN_Vander

[danielprates]

27 minutes ago, SYN_Vander said:

 

Yes, it was a huge air battle!

 

https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1347&context=cmh

 

See page 16:

 

Oh wow! I was just reading the attached reports. Hey we have some of those planes. The stalingrad german planes match the period, the spitfires I am assuming were Vs, and the hurricanes.....hmmm CoD has cannon hurricanes, I cant quite remember what configurations are possible but its almost there. Huh. Interesting to see the hurricane still finding frontline usefullness after the battle of brittain. 

 

Well, there is a whole mission pack's worth right there, even if spanning one day only.

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

 

Anyone knows what the right one is? 

 

Dunno. Whichever of the two includes more relevant german airfields I guess?

 

[Avimimus]

8 hours ago, danielprates said:

Was it a significant event though? The air support, I mean. The landing itself lasted for only a day. Could be worth a couple of missions.

 

Yes it was significant!

• A major goal of the landing was to draw the Luftwaffe out - the raids would test the ability to conduct a cross-channel invasion, but a major justification was that it would bring the Luftwaffe into the air over the coast and allow the RAF to focus on destroying it in a decisive air battle.
• As SYN_Vander points out - Fighter Command alone flew more than 2,500 sorties over Dieppe during the raid. It was the largest and densest air-battle in the West between the end of the Blitz and the Strategic bombing campaign. The RAF committed 68 squadrons to Dieppe.
• The raid saw one of the last deployments in the west of massed daylight Luftwaffe bombers of the war (with high losses among the Do-217 units encouraging the transition to only night bombing)!
• The raid led to significant casualties among veteran Luftwaffe pilots.

In addition to the enormous number of sorties (with units flying many sorties during the landings) Dieppe acts as a Crescendo to the cross-channel raids that had been taking place throughout 1942... so one could always make a campaign that include reconnaissance for Operation Jubilee, hunting FW-190 intruders, and raids by Bostons (A-20 with British armament) in the lead up to the fighting.

 

I think it is also interesting as a contrast to Normandy - because the Allies didn't have air superiority and in some ways the Axis won.

 

It would be fun to have a Western use of some of the aircraft that were obsolete by Normandy - it allows match ups between the FW-190A3 and the Spit Vb (or Spit IX), the earliest versions of the Mustang... even sometimes the Bf-109F - the plane-set consists mainly of interesting variants of existing aircraft:

Fw-190A3, FW-190A4/U8 (bomber), Bf-109F, Do-217E, Ju-88 torpedo bombers.

Spit Vb, Spit IXc (early), Typhoon (early), Boston III (British A-20), Mustang I (P-40 engined British Mustangs with option for cannon armaments).

 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Avimimus

[danielprates]

33 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Dieppe acts as a Crescendo

 

Yeah after reading @SYN_Vanders material early on I kept thinking that an entire campaign can be drawn over this, culminating in the Dieppe raid. As I said in my previous post we have most of the planes already - who would imagine that the Spit V we got to play an almost-unknown unit in the Kuban would have this use in the Normandy map, for instance? And so many Stalingrad-era planes are more or less contemporary. 

 

TBH I would welcome ANYTHING that would get us taking off from England and raiding France, prior to 1944 when the odd were more equal (or 'less unequal'). 

[LukeFF]

9 minutes ago, danielprates said:

As I said in my previous post we have most of the planes already - who would imagine that the Spit V we got to play an almost-unknown unit in the Kuban would have this use in the Normandy map, for instance?

 

Well, it will also be there for the 1944 Normandy career mode ? - there were more than a few RAF squadrons still flying it well into the summer of 1944 over the Normandy beachhead. 

[PatrickAWlson]

How inappropriate  is our Typhoon for 1942?  Of course it's a different, more advanced version, but how much of an upgrade is it?

[Avimimus]

14 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

How inappropriate  is our Typhoon for 1942?  Of course it's a different, more advanced version, but how much of an upgrade is it?

 

Significant alas...  The Typhoons were pure air-superiority/interceptor units (i.e. no bombs) - they also still had a lot of the early engine troubles, un-reinforced tails, and had very different cockpit. So, adding these early models would probably cost as much development effort as the Mustang I.

 

However, the operated only over part of the beachhead and were something like 1/25th of the RAF force... so not that noticeable. It is interesting though - since the Spit Vb is somewhat outclassed by the Fw-190 units, but the RAF has a few 'super fighters' in the form of Spit IX and Typhoon units... so they'd make an interesting addition gameplay-wise (along with the Mustang I and the Do-217E) but aren't essential.

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

18 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Significant alas...  The Typhoons were pure air-superiority/interceptor units (i.e. no bombs) - they also still had a lot of the early engine troubles, un-reinforced tails, and had very different cockpit. So, adding these early models would probably cost as much development effort as the Mustang I.

 

However, the operated only over part of the beachhead and were something like 1/25th of the RAF force... so not that noticeable. It is interesting though - since the Spit Vb is somewhat outclassed by the Fw-190 units, but the RAF has a few 'super fighters' in the form of Spit IX and Typhoon units... so they'd make an interesting addition gameplay-wise (along with the Mustang I and the Do-217E) but aren't essential.

 

 

 

Thanks for the info.  I'll stick with Spit V as the core supported by Hurricane II.  The A20 can be the Boston and every other British light bomber  

[Avimimus]

18 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Thanks for the info.  I'll stick with Spit V as the core supported by Hurricane II.  The A20 can be the Boston and every other British light bomber  

 

From what I gather the other British bombers were used only as smoke layers. The Boston/A20 conducted raids on a few key points, but most of the actual ground support for the landings consisted of bomb equipped Hurricanes... (with the Spitfires providing top cover and trying to destroy the Luftwaffe units that were lured out).

[Pict]

Dieppe was not only a huge air battle, it was also so well balanced that both sides claimed victory  and it saw initial deployment of the USAAC and it's first aerial kills in the ETO.

 

A list I put together of what flew in the Dieppe air battle, those in bold we already have virtually identical aircraft in IL2 BOX;

 

Directly involved in the air battle

Bf-109F
Bf-109G-1
Fw-190A-2
Fw-190A-3
Fw-190A-4 in the ground attack / antiship role
Ju-88
He-111
Do-217E

Hurricane MKIIB & MKIIC
Spitfire MKVB
Spitfire F.IXc with a Merlin 63 (or maybe a 61) or both, the classic C type winged round ruddered version many people desire
Typhoon MKIB early car door type
Mustang I
Boston III
Beufighter

 

Supporting roles
Blenheim MK.IV used for smoke screen deployment, but suffered casualties to both fighters and AAA

B-17E used to bomb Abbeville aerodrome as a suppression measure, escorted by USAAF Spitfire VB's

Walrus & Defiant for air sea rescue

 

I've said this elswhere, but I'll say it again. Dieppe offers an oppertunity for an add-on without the need to build a map and many of the types required are earlier versions of ones we already have, therefore have the potential to reduce development time, with the exeption* of the Do-217 and the Beufighter.

 

*not including the supporting types.
 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Pict
Updated list

[Avimimus]

Indeed - just a minor note: I believe that the Fw-190A-2 would've been almost all upgraded to the A-3 standard by this point in time. Also the Do-217E and Beaufighter could be AI aircraft if necessary...

[sevenless]

7 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Indeed - just a minor note: I believe that the Fw-190A-2 would've been almost all upgraded to the A-3 standard by this point in time.

 

Nope, if you are talking about Dieppe 8/42. You can read it here Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, I./JG26 (ww2.dk) . Just look up JG2 and JG26.

 

[Avimimus]

23 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Nope, if you are talking about Dieppe 8/42. You can read it here Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, I./JG26 (ww2.dk) . Just look up JG2 and JG26.

 

To clarify: I meant that the late A-2 were upgraded to the point where they were almost identical to the A-3... they still retained their original designations (A2 and A3) - it is just that they were extremely similar by 1942, almost interchangeable - since the gradual accumulation of upgrades that lead to the A-3 standard were also usually being applied to existing A-2 airframes... which means that a 1942 era A-2 can be pretty accurately represented by the A-3 we already have in game.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Avimimus

[sevenless]

Just now, Avimimus said:

 

To clarify: I meant that the late A-2 were upgraded to the point where they were almost identical to the A-3... they still retained their original designations (A2 and A3) - it is just that they were extremely similar by 1942, almost interchangeable - since the gradual accumulation of upgrades that lead to the A-3 standard were also usually being applied to existing A-2 airframes...

 

I see. However that is speculative unless documented sources provide evidence about those A2s. All I know is that we have a pretty detailed list of german losses from that day here:

 

Battle over Dieppe 19th August 1942 (luftwaffe.cz)

 

[Avimimus]

By the way - the Osprey book might have the flashiest and easiest to read maps - and there are more comprehensive history books on the subject - but for anyone thinking of making a scripted or dynamic campaign I'd recommend "The Greatest Air Battle: Dieppe 19th August 1942" by Norman Franks:

https://books.google.ca/books/about/The_Greatest_Air_Battle.html?id=Uv5dPgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

 

It is essentially an hour-by-hour collection of excerpts from after action reports from an RAF perspective - which captures the chaos from the pilots' perspectives while providing a lot of useful details.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Avimimus

[Pict]

To my mind the Bf-109G1 is the odd one out of those that took part. It was definately there and both Jg2 & Jg26 are recorded to have them at the time and as can be seen above 3 were lost in the battle.

 

From what I understand the G1 was a high altitude version and was fitted with a pressurised cockpit. I assume that they were flung in to the battle just because they were available.

 

Anyone have any more info or thoughts on on that or the G1 in general?

[sevenless]

2 hours ago, Pict said:

From what I understand the G1 was a high altitude version and was fitted with a pressurised cockpit. I assume that they were flung in to the battle just because they were available.

 

Anyone have any more info or thoughts on on that or the G1 in general?

 

109 G1 and G1/R2 were the only 109s available to JG2 and JG26. In both wings the 11th squadron was equipped with them. They were the so called "Höhenstaffel". What was the purpose of these squadrons, you might ask? Well, the plan was to have at least one squadron per wing which was able to operate above 12.000metres with acceptable performance. Mind you, the rest of both JG 2 and JG 26 was equipped with 190s and those were a little anemic up there around 10000metres. So they used the 109s for this purpose and equipped them with a pressurized cockpit and GM-1 ( G1/R2 with nitrous oxide 'boost') to have acceptable high altitude performance.

[357th_KW]

Both JG2 and JG26 (and eventually JG1, though it was much later and JG1 isn't relevant to this battle anyway) added an 11th "Hohe" Staffel that were high altitude specialists, equipped with the new Bf109G-1 in the summer of 1942.  This coincides with both JG2 and 26 converting entirely to FW190s.  Clearly their was some concern that the 190's relatively low critical altitude could present a problem going forward as their had been a constant arms race to fly even higher on the western front throughout the war. 

 

In the case of the actual Dieppe battle, my understanding is that ceilings were quite low and gradually rose as the day went on, so most combat took place at relatively low altitude.  The 109s may have been employed in their designed high cover role, but high would have been relative on that day.  Both 11/JG2 and 11/JG26 appear to have had a few G-1/R2 models (2 and 6 respectively in August 1942). 

 

From Prien and Rodecke's Bf109 F-G-K book "The last 80 machines built by Messerschmitt were delivered as Bf 109 G-1/R2 lightened high-altitude fighters, the R2 designation signifying Rustzustand 2.  In addition to the deletion of the pilot's back armor and the equipment associated with the long -range fuel tank, this included an unprotected metal fuel tank and GM-1 nitrous-oxide injection, which provided a short boost in engine performance."

[453=SGII_Wotan]

"What have I awoken"

 

The sleeping Beast of Dieppe

 

???

 

Poiter the happy Aussie

[SYN_Vander]

6 hours ago, IISG2_Wotan said:

"What have I awoken"

 

The sleeping Beast of Dieppe

 

???

 

Poiter the happy Aussie

 

Only our imagination! It just shows that the new 'Normandy' map has way more potential then just D-Day!

[ww2fighter20]

16 hours ago, Pict said:

Boston III

We don't have the Boston III, we only have an A20B modified for the soviets.

RAF never used the A20B and while the Boston III looks similar it's an different aircraft, especially different bombs/guns (6x7.7), it's likely also the reason why you can't fly the A20B in career mode for Bodenplatte.

A20B is also several years old so it's unlikely we are going to see any new modifications for it.

 

Boston III would have to be an seperate collector aircraft or included in an package as an new release which is unlikely to happen.

[Diggun]

16 hours ago, Pict said:

Spitfire MKIXB/C the classic 20mm / 303 cal armed round ruddered version many people desire

I don't think I've mentioned how much I would like this this week. How much I would like this is: a lot. 

[Pict]

@sevenless & @VBF-12_KW that's interesting stuff re. the Bf109-G1 

 

1 hour ago, ww2fighter20 said:

We don't have the Boston III, we only have an A20B modified for the soviets.

 

Yes that's true and hence why I worded what I said the way I did;

 

18 hours ago, Pict said:

those in bold we already have virtually identical aircraft in IL2 BOX;

 

And I wasn't specifically thinking of the Boston either, as if it was run through a decent hairsplitter the Spitfire MKVB we got for the Kuban map was not identical to those used at Dieppe...if I recall correctly? Enter a decent hairsplitter...  

 

But it's not far off, or should I say not as far off as a Mustang I is from a P-51B/C Mustang III, yet that conversion would take significantly less work than a scratch built Do-217 or Beufighter.

 

This I feel is really the bigger picture when considering a Battle of Dieppe for IL2 BOX. They have already invested much time into what we have and it would make sense to capitalise on that by expanding the plane/tank/campaign sets for maps that we already have by reworking some stuff and adding some new content.

 

The Normandie map we are expecting was a busy area for the entire conflict and not just during the D-Day invasion. The Dieppe raid and that whole period of 1942 saw much action on that map and unlike D-Day, in 1942 the action was balanced and intense from both sides.

 

1 hour ago, Diggun said:

I don't think I've mentioned how much I would like this this week. How much I would like this is: a lot. 

 

So desire was the right word then or should we say desire with a passion? 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Pict
Tweak and spelling...it's me or the keyboard that's past it :)....ok it's looking like it's me.

[ShamrockOneFive]

This is good. All kinds of people are looking at the map and thinking Battle of Britain... of course! Except we don't have nearly enough aircraft for that but the battles of 1942 and 1943 across the channel including Dieppe have many of the aircraft that we already have. A much better scenario given the available aircraft!

[Diggun]

14 minutes ago, Pict said:

should we say desire with a passion? 

*Burning* passion. Barely contained animal lust. Considerable keenness. Take yer pick!

[Mtnbiker1998]

I would love this! If the devs ever decide to go the route of "Plane Packs" then this would be an excellent option. Granted, I always felt a lot of these aircraft might be fitting for a "Battle of Italy" 1943 theater, but either way getting these planes and more in the game would make me very happy. Especially that P-51A...

[ShamrockOneFive]

21 hours ago, Pict said:

Spitfire MKIXB/C the classic 20mm / 303 cal armed round ruddered version many people desire

 

Fun fact and piece of Spitfire trivia. There's no such thing as a Spitfire Mark IXb. All IX models were equipped with C-type (or later E-type) wings unlike the Spitfire Vb and Vc distinction. However, when the Merlin 66 equipped Spitfire IX first arrived there was no official designation for it so you'll commonly see in log books the type listed as Spitfire IX-B. Later they called it Spitfire LF.IX for Merlin 66, F.IX for the earlier Merlin 61/63 and HF.IX for the high altitude Merlin 70.

 

What you're asking for is probably a Spitfire F.IXc with a Merlin 63 (or maybe a 61). Round tail and C-type wing armament. That'd be a great, if subtle to many folks, addition to the Spitfire line-up for those cross channel battles of late 1942 and 1943.

[Pict]

5 hours ago, ww2fighter20 said:

We don't have the Boston III, we only have an A20B modified for the soviets.

 

37 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

What you're asking for is probably a Spitfire F.IXc with a Merlin 63 (or maybe a 61). Round tail and C-type wing armament. That'd be a great, if subtle to many folks, addition to the Spitfire line-up for those cross channel battles of late 1942 and 1943.

 

Updated the list to reflect these inputs, thanks.

 

====================

 

Anyone know what version of the follwing were at Dieppe?

 

Bf-109F

He-111

Ju-88

Beufighter

Edited September 18, 2021 by Pict

[CountZero]

In MP you wont see this, distances to action for allieds are to big, 100+km vs 20-30km for axis.

For SP you can just use airplanes we have in game for battles from 1941 to dday with no problems, i expect they will add some missing airplanes, mostly allied as you need to save any axis airplanes for main dlcs, who knows what airplane you gona need, not good to just give it away as collectable and then dont have airplane for main dlc.

 

In il-2 1946 or CloD, online actions were almost always on this parts of map (no mather if it was 1940-41-42-43):

 

for action anywhere els you would have to have airstarts, and they were never popular as you still need to fly far to land or rtb.

South west part of map was popular only for after dday scenarious. 40-44 that north east area was where the action was online on this map, and looking how online in this game is played same as it was played in previous ones, i expect same here.

Edited September 18, 2021 by CountZero

[Avimimus]

19 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

What you're asking for is probably a Spitfire F.IXc with a Merlin 63 (or maybe a 61). Round tail and C-type wing armament. That'd be a great, if subtle to many folks, addition to the Spitfire line-up for those cross channel battles of late 1942 and 1943.

 

I think the landing light also moved I think 

 

 

 

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

6 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

I think the landing light also moved I think 

 

Did it even have one?

 

There were tons of small differences between the earlier IX variants and the one that we have. The air filter is another recognizable feature that's greatly enlarged on the later versions.

[Avimimus]

8 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Did it even have one?

 

There were tons of small differences between the earlier IX variants and the one that we have. The air filter is another recognizable feature that's greatly enlarged on the later versions.

 

Yeah - that is one thing we underestimate - the flight model and damage model programming would be sped up (as would the research) - but the 3d models and cockpits would likely have to be built from scratch...

 

I wonder if they could make a 1942-1943 pack with some of these aircraft and some aircraft from the Eastern front during this period (e.g. Ju-87D5)? Or make a smaller module that only had some of these variants and was sold for a slightly lower price point?

 

I think one issue is that a lot of Americans are aware of the Battle of Britain, D-Day, and the 8th Airforce... and that is about it - so anything between 1941 and 1944 won't sell as well. So I'm not sure if the focus on variants and the reduced programming effort would make up for that shortfall.