Dogfight and blackening out

[sturmkraehe]

Can somebody give me some useful advice for dogfights with this blackening out mecha?

 

I havent played this game for several years now and I am completely lost. I can not maneuver as I am used to to evade or to get into a firing position and it is highly frustrating. 

[Thad]

1 hour ago, sturmkraehe said:

Can somebody give me some useful advice for dogfights with this blackening out mecha?

 I can not maneuver as I am used to to evade or to get into a firing position and it is highly frustrating. 

 

Obviously you have to modify your old maneuver levels down to prevent or reduce the games black out effect.  

[Kimmissar]

I really struggled with it for a day or two, but it slowly started getting into my skull to manage how much G's I pull. One critical factor in prolonged turnfights is that I learned to not always have my throttle at 100%. It feels weird to give up energy-gains by throttling down sometimes, but you get a smaller turn circle and less G forces.

 

Also if you switch on the instruments on the bottom left(realism controls), you see a G-forces meter with a stamina bar. Watch that during a dogfight, and you'll understand how the G-system works. You have a stamina bar that depletes quickly and recharges only slowly by flying straight for a while. This way, you start to make a calculation like "okay I can make this sharp turn at high speed, but it'll eat up a lot of stamina, so is it worth it for a snap shot or should I make this turn more gentle to save stamina?".

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

 

1). Fly as gently as you can unless you absolutely need to turn more vigorously.  When not in combat, try to keep the plane trimmed for the speed you are flying.  For example, trimming for a slight (hands-free) climb at cruise speed is better on the pilot than having to keep constant back-pressure on the stick to achieve the same result.  When in combat, you'll pretty much have to "feel" for yourself whether or not it is beneficial to try trim adjustments on-the-fly.

 

2).  As Kimmissar pointed out, turning at full throttle can cause excess G-force.  Unlike what Kimmissar said, throttling back does not always bleed energy. Depending on the plane's overall orientation and flight path, you may be able to throttle back and keep or gain energy while also gaining a few extra horsepower (in the form of unused/un-maxed throttle) in reserve.  

Throttling back or throttling up in turns or pulling out of dives also has a bit of different effect depending on whether you're using a plane with a block engine or a rotary engine, so be careful with that.  

 

3).  While it does put extra exertion on the pilot's legs (which will eventually lead to tiredness), using the rudder to turn while keeping the wings at a lesser bank angle relieves direct "up or down" G-force on the pilot.  Going full 90-degrees bank angle and full-pulling the stick back to turn is going to give more direct Gs than a 45-degrees bank and using rudder to "help" the turn.    

 

4). Be aware of the pilot's body position and the plane's overall orientation and flight path in relation to "God's G".  I won't get into an in-depth description but, Air Combat Tutorial Library on YouTube is a great place to learn about God's G and other concepts.  

 

5).  Don't go from +G to -G to +G (or vice versa) too quickly or let off of the G force, then re-apply G right away as it will reduce your ability to stay awake by alot. 

 

6).  "Instant turns" - turning the plane as hard as you can for a second or two - can be fine as long as your pilot is rested beforehand and you don't stack multiple turns on top of each other.  Make sure you aren't too fast before trying this. The "just right" speed seems to vary slightly from plane to plane, so you'll have to experiment to find the right speed for the plane you're using. 

 

7). Some of the best practice I've found one can do is this:

      Quick Mission > Solo Flight > Aerobatic Smoke loadout (optional) and throw the plane around in the sky while adjusting throttle in coordination with your maneuvers.  Practice, practice, practice until it starts getting easier.   

Proper stick, rudder and throttle coordination is very important.  RPM adjustment (for manual RPM planes) can be worked with as well but, it takes a pretty good sense of "feel" to not end up with bad effects from an improper setting at the wrong time. 

 

8). Be careful how your plane is trimmed.  If you blackout and the plane is trimmed to pitch-up beyond a certain speed, there's a chance that even though the pilot is giving no input, the plane is still adding G greater than 1 (normal).  This can reduce recovery time during the blackout or even prevent recovery.  This also matters if the plane is inverted and "split-S-ing" beyond God's G limits on it's own. (see point #4)  

Ideally, if you can tell you're going to blackout, getting the plane to fly straight-and-level without any "pitch-up incidence" before you lose consciousness is 9 times out of 10 your best bet for fastest recovery.  

 

That's about all I can think of at the moment.  If I think of anything else, I'll post it.  

[busdriver]

How about some of these for some pretty good gouge...

BFM Videos

[Kimmissar]

5 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

Unlike what Kimmissar said, throttling back does not always bleed energy. Depending on the plane's overall orientation and flight path, you may be able to throttle back and keep or gain energy while also gaining a few extra horsepower (in the form of unused/un-maxed throttle) in reserve.  

Throttling back or throttling up in turns or pulling out of dives also has a bit of different effect depending on whether you're using a plane with a block engine or a rotary engine, so be careful with that. 

Thank you for the correction Mobile, would you be willing to elaborate on this? I was under the impression that the engine+prop was in the business of constantly generating kinetic energy for you, and that throttling down is akin to giving up kinetic energy that you could have gained if you had kept it at full.

(ignoring the fact that sometimes you simply have to, to avoid passing out or overspeeding)

 

Also, you seem to say you can "store" reserve horsepower or something? How does that work; do you just mean in lower temps or something?

[busdriver]

@Kimmissar think about an airplane that is accelerating downhill, you can and should pull the throttle back to keep your airspeed under control in certain situations. For example dive bombing or a descending vertical scissors (where you will probably accelerate). A common phrase heard IRL fighter pilot briefings and debriefings is “it depends.” But as you surmise, if you’re level or going uphill you will lose energy.

 

To address @sturmkraehe’s problem, there are a couple issues. Airspeed SA: Not knowing the corner velocity of the airplane you are in and pulling too hard on the stick when above this speed. As you alluded to, being faster than corner velocity generates a large turn radius or what RL fighter pilots call a “bogey gathering turn” if you happen to be out front on defense. Corner velocity is where a pilot can get his fastest, tightest turn. Somewhere below that speed you’ll get a minimum sustained turn velocity that generates a slightly larger radius with a slower turn rate. So faster than corner...really big radius...easier to GLOC. Below minimum sustained turn velocity you get a gentle 2g turn where you’re out of airspeed and ideas.

 

What to do with the throttle? In a turning fight modulate it to stay around minimum sustained turning velocity up to corner velocity. Modulate it to control your overtake of a maneuvering bandit to prevent being spit out the front or a velocity overshoot as we would say. It is a characteristic of 1GCCFPs to fly HUD BFM, that is keeping a bandit in the gunsight rather than use out of plane (geometric plane) to close for a kill, thus the greater need to be aggressive with the throttle when closing.
 

How to deal with the “stamina” issue is problematic IMO. It is a feature that I disagree with, but the only solution is to stop pulling on the pole. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by busdriver
emphasis on minimum sustained turn velocity

[ZachariasX]

21 hours ago, sturmkraehe said:

Can somebody give me some useful advice for dogfights with this blackening out mecha?

Fly in simple missions alone. Learn to control the aircraft you intent to fly. You do so by training your muscle memory and what you have to do for this is learning how to initiate a SUSTAINED turn at permissive g's (less than 5!) as quickly as possible.

 

In some aircraft, the g load builds up later than others, meaning you have nose up first, but then as you keep the aircraft at a given attitude, g loads will continue to rise. This means in aircarft that are more prone to this "rubberbanding" (laging control input), you tend to overcontrol and give excessive pitch to make the nose raise as fast as the other plane. It is important that you learn to ease up on the stick agian once you have attained nose up and the plane is now turning such that the resulting turn is not more than 5 g.

 

This is easy in some aircrtaft as the 109, as yanking the stick back will make the nose come up swiftly and for normal deflection angle of the stick, 5 g is what you get, so people generally do not black uot much in the 109. (And claim the pilot can sustain g's better in the 109 followed by discussions about seat recline.)

 

The Spitfire in this game raises the nose slow, but a similar deflection angle as you would get 5 g in a 109 will give you 7-8 g (or so) in the Spit. This means, while the initial pull back on the stick is quick like you could do in the 109, you must ease up immediately once you got the nose moving quickly, else you find yourself spiking up in a 7 g turn. As this gives you nice angles on the 109, people welcome that and keep it. But doing so doesn't get you your prey, it will send you to sleep.

 

You are fighting some game mechanics here beyond normal BFM as well.

[sturmkraehe]

yeah, I thought so that some things might be more game mechanics than physics.

 

I wonder also if the devs considered that average body size has been less in ww2 than today and that this affects how quick ppl black out unter g-load.

 

BTW can sb explain me the g-load indicator in the in-game instrument panel? The number is g-load. But I have some difficulties to understand the other indicators. There is a triangle on the left lower corner what I don't know what it is for and the clockwise bar shall indicate stamina I guess. But I don't understand what it is exactly indicating? The white trait is this the remaining stamina or the fatigue?

 

Why do I always tend to start a mission with almost empty bar?

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Oddly enough, @busdriver and I agree on something. lol   

 

The idea to get the best turn is to be at the ideal Corner Velocity.  

 

In a straight line, it's about multiple factors such as:  using gravity to your advantage, understanding the pros and cons of using headwinds and tail winds, not having radiator flaps hanging out into the wind causing drag and not having unnecessary loading on control surfaces (which also can cause drag).  

 

For the example of gravity, I think of it this way:  Gravity (when it's not working against or trying to kill you in conjunction with the ground) is an energy multiplier. 

Imagine 2 identical planes.  Both planes, at 3,000m altitude, have a maximum full-throttle speed of 400kph.  Plane A is at 3,000m, 400kph and full throttle.  Plane B is right along side of Plane A at the same speed.  However, Plane B descended from higher altitude and has had to cut throttle to 50% in order to maintain 400kph along with Plane A. 

After 5 seconds of being firmly alongside each other, both planes will pull up to a +5 degree angle and drag race to 5,000m.  Which plane would you rather be flying? Plane A that's already at maximum energy expenditure at the start or Plane B that has equal energy (speed) but, also has 50% of it's total engine power still "in the bank"?  Even if Plane B ends up in a state where it's running 100% power and losing energy identically to Plane A, the initial usage of that "reserve power" should have been more than enough to put Plane B ahead of Plane A.  When both planes are at 100% power and are at equal speed and energy bleed, Plane A should not be able to gain any distance (or lose any distance for that matter), on Plane B.  At that point, Plane B would be the clear winner.

If the scenario was that the drag race would be a -5 degree dive to 1,000m or even a straight-and-level race for a set distance Plane B would still be much advantaged. 

 

Obviously, (to my "extra horsepower" comment) an engine cannot physically put out more horsepower than it's designed to produce.  That wasn't the impression I meant to give.  As cool as it seems in concept. the "amp" never really "goes to 11".  I was trying to state that with good energy management, you might be able to run the engine at reduced settings but, get the same (or better) results than an identical plane running at 100%.  This will give you some reserve to work with should you need it.     

 

I apologize beforehand if any of my points are unclear.  If there is anything like that, please point it out and I will try to better define what I am trying to convey.  

 

  

 

 

[AndyJWest]

'Head winds and tail winds' are (unless there is some very significant variation of wind velocity with altitude) of no relevance in a dogfight. As far as the physics of the situation goes, you are fighting in an air mass, and whether the ground is moving under it or not makes no difference at all.

[sturmkraehe]

Interesting discussion.

 

To come back to my last question, as I think it will help me to learn to manage g and blackouts better: How to read the g load indicator in the game? Can sb help me here?

[busdriver]

56 minutes ago, sturmkraehe said:

Interesting discussion.

 

To come back to my last question, as I think it will help me to learn to manage g and blackouts better: How to read the g load indicator in the game? Can sb help me here?

 

Sure. Here are four screens to show current g load and "stamina." The first shows I'm pulling 4.9g and my stamina is now down to ~50%

 

 

Continuing to pull full aft stick...now I'm down to 4.3g but have exhausted my "stamina."

 

 

Now GLOC has occurred. The airplane is still loaded up to 3.2g.

 

 

Waking up...3.3g and some "stamina" has returned. When your stamina has fully returned that triangle will be full (solid white).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by busdriver

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

3 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

'Head winds and tail winds' are (unless there is some very significant variation of wind velocity with altitude) of no relevance in a dogfight. As far as the physics of the situation goes, you are fighting in an air mass, and whether the ground is moving under it or not makes no difference at all.

 

Considering that the first four words of the sentence you are responding to are "In a straight line"....  

 

Also, I have no idea why you would assume the "headwind" and "tailwind" relative to the airplane are strictly related to ground speed and only ground speed.  

[busdriver]

@AndyJWestis correct, headwinds, tailwinds, crosswinds, windshears, updrafts, downdrafts, hurricanes, tornados, typhoons, etc don't figure into this particular discussion. I did this and taught this stuff IRL. If you're dropping bombs or flying in the overhead pattern (shallow in, steep away) or need to remain within the confines of your MOA (Military Operating Area) or Whiskey Area (Warning Area) or TRA (Temporary Restricted Area) those are the times off the top of my cranium, I've heard them brought up in a briefing.

[sturmkraehe]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

 

Sure. Here are four screens to show current g load and "stamina." The first shows I'm pulling 4.9g and my stamina is now down to ~50%

 

 

Continuing to pull full aft stick...now I'm down to 4.3g but have exhausted my "stamina."

 

 

Now GLOC has occurred. The airplane is still loaded up to 3.2g.

 

 

Waking up...3.3g and some "stamina" has returned. When your stamina has fully returned that triangle will be full (solid white).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks! This is really helping! I didnt know that it was the triangle which indicates stamina! 

 

What is the circular "bar" around it? It sometimes depletes and sometimes increases. 

[busdriver]

5 minutes ago, sturmkraehe said:

Thanks! This is really helping! I didnt know that it was the triangle which indicates stamina! 

 

What is the circular "bar" around it? It sometimes depletes and sometimes increases. 

 

That circular bar is an analog display of your current g. When you go negative g that analog display goes red.

 

So to piggyback on @ZachariasX suggestion. Pick your airplane, start up around 3000 to 5000 meters, accelerate ~500 kph or so, then pull on the pole to test the GLOC threshold for that airplane. That way you can get a warm fuzzy about when you're too fast. I've found that the Spitfires and Tempest are pretty easy airplanes to put myself to sleep.

 

This screen from one of Requiem's BFM videos (made prior to the Devs increasing the g tolerance) shows that speed should be somewhere around 250 mph for the Mk IX.

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by busdriver

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

4 minutes ago, busdriver said:

@AndyJWestis correct, headwinds, tailwinds, crosswinds, windshears, updrafts, downdrafts, hurricanes, tornados, typhoons, etc don't figure into this particular discussion. I did this and taught this stuff IRL. If you're dropping bombs or flying in the overhead pattern (shallow in, steep away) or need to remain within the confines of your MOA (Military Operating Area) or Whiskey Area (Warning Area) or TRA (Temporary Restricted Area) those are the times off the top of my cranium, I've heard them brought up in a briefing.

 

I think the misunderstanding is based on the fact that I was replying to this...

15 hours ago, Kimmissar said:

Thank you for the correction Mobile, would you be willing to elaborate on this? I was under the impression that the engine+prop was in the business of constantly generating kinetic energy for you, and that throttling down is akin to giving up kinetic energy that you could have gained if you had kept it at full.

(ignoring the fact that sometimes you simply have to, to avoid passing out or overspeeding)

 

Also, you seem to say you can "store" reserve horsepower or something? How does that work; do you just mean in lower temps or something?

 

...which asked me to elaborate on how it is possible to keep, or gain, energy without having to go full-throttle 100% of the time.  This was meant from purely the view of "energy management".   I would also say that pulling out of a near-fatal (inches-from-the-ground) dive and trying to climb into a headwind vs. trying to climb with a tailwind can certainly make a difference.  

Yes, it was an aside from the main topic and wasn't meant as a hijack.  

[busdriver]

@69th_Mobile_BBQfair enough. 

[rogueblade]

On 4/27/2021 at 9:34 PM, busdriver said:

 

That circular bar is an analog display of your current g. When you go negative g that analog display goes red.

 

So to piggyback on @ZachariasX suggestion. Pick your airplane, start up around 3000 to 5000 meters, accelerate ~500 kph or so, then pull on the pole to test the GLOC threshold for that airplane. That way you can get a warm fuzzy about when you're too fast. I've found that the Spitfires and Tempest are pretty easy airplanes to put myself to sleep.

 

This screen from one of Requiem's BFM videos (made prior to the Devs increasing the g tolerance) shows that speed should be somewhere around 250 mph for the Mk IX.

 

 

 

Where are you getting 250mph from? Corner speed looks to be 225mph. Also what is the secondary Y axis?

 

I was today years old when learned that the little triangle under the G-indicator is your remaining stamina!

[busdriver]

@rogueblade that 225 mph is for a 6g GLOC threshold. The Devs increased this to ~7g. So if you check where 7g intersects the airspeed axis, it is approximately 240 mph. I was just obviously off by 10 mph in this case, thanks for pointing that out.

 

We find Turn Rate on the left side, and on the right side we have a continuation of the Radius of Turn that starts at the apex with 400 feet. By the time those sloped lines intersect the right side you see 1200 feet increasing as you come down the side. So if you were at max speed and pulled a 3g level turn your circle would have a 3000 foot radius.

 

Hope that helps.

[rogueblade]

23 hours ago, busdriver said:

@rogueblade that 225 mph is for a 6g GLOC threshold. The Devs increased this to ~7g. So if you check where 7g intersects the airspeed axis, it is approximately 240 mph. I was just obviously off by 10 mph in this case, thanks for pointing that out.

 

We find Turn Rate on the left side, and on the right side we have a continuation of the Radius of Turn that starts at the apex with 400 feet. By the time those sloped lines intersect the right side you see 1200 feet increasing as you come down the side. So if you were at max speed and pulled a 3g level turn your circle would have a 3000 foot radius.

 

Hope that helps.

Ah, super interesting, would love to see an update EM diagram to reflect the change. Will test the 240mph max perf turn this eve!

 

Ok I think I understand the radius axis.... To see if I'm reading it right, take another example - if I perform a max perf sustained turn at 3Gs and 180mph, would my turn radius be just over 600ft or 1400ft? Unsure if to read look to the top or right of the chart for intersection at max perf sustained turn.

[busdriver]

@rogueblade 3g at 180 mph would be just under 800 foot radius, follow the nearest line that slopes up and to the right.

[rogueblade]

Got it. My mistake, I meant 3.5ish G, makes sense now thanks