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Is it worth swapping the Vive Pro for an Index?


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JG301_Megla

Anyone have experience with the two?  I have been using a pro with gear vr lenses for about 3 years. Would the index be an upgrade at this point? 

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chiliwili69

I had the VivePro (no mods) and currently have the Index.

The vivepro without the mod was blurry in the edges. But I believe that with the mod the clarity is better.

The resolution is the same in term of pixels, but the OLED panel of the VivePro has only two subpixels per pixel and the Index is LCD with 3 subpixels per pixel.

Also I think that the panel utilization (area of the panel that it is seen) is higher in the Index.

FOV is also better vertically and horizontally.

I don´t know if you can order just the headset and deliver it back if you consider the improvement is not good enough.

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30speed

I had a vive-pro first, did a gearvr mod, awesome setup. Decided to pre-order Index to try it out and ended up returning it.

 

Index:

pro's:  noticeable bump in vertical FOV, a barely noticeable bump in horizontal FOV

con's:  glare, glare galore, my gawd so much glare. Greys everywhere, no black colors.

 

Vivepro:

pro's:  inky blacks, the night looks like a normal night. GearVR mod brings 100% lens clarity and a 100% lens wide sweet spot

con's:  a bit less of a FOV, noticeably vertical FoV.

 

Try to fly a mission in the dusk with VivePro. You will never experience such color contrast with Index. Frankly the glare+grey colors will make the night/dusk flying unbearable.

 

 

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JG301_Megla

Thanks for the feedback guys. The images of the grey contrast on the index killed it for me. Ended up upgrading from a 1080ti to 3080.  Even though I would have to say the 1080 still put out a consistent 90fps.  

 

 Kind of had to part with the dead pixels, scratched lenses and disguarded headphones at this point but was willing to explore my options. Sounds like the pro is still a front runner even after years. The G2 looks promising maybe I will give one a go once they are available again.   

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chiliwili69

Just FYI, I just made some through the lens pictures with various devices including VivePro and Index:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/36627-resolution-tests-rift-vs-vivepro-updated-with-camera-through-lenses-pics/?do=findComment&comment=618137

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/52371-valve-index-vs-pimax5k-which-one-to-pick-through-lens-pictures/

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/53603-valve-index-vs-hp-reverb-through-the-lens-pictures/

 

But as you know VR devices are very subjective. For example, the glare thing of the Index is barely noticeable to me, not really a problem. And about greys/blacks, for me the the black of the Index is enough black for IL-2 (most of missions for me are on daylight). If you play space sims, perhaps it is more important.

 

You can try the G2 as well given that you have a 3080. Many people is happy with that. But with a good return policy if you don´t like it.

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SCG_Fenris_Wolf

Try the LensMod. You must, really. 

I tried it on the Cosmos (yes yes, I know) and it had beaten anything I've seen regarding edge to edge clarity).

Make sure to save your VivePro's distortion profile! Google it!

 

Then also use the 3080 to supersample a bit higher and this have less aliasing. 

 

You won't regret it :))

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JG301_Megla
On 2/3/2021 at 12:10 AM, chiliwili69 said:

Just FYI, I just made some through the lens pictures with various devices including VivePro and Index:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/36627-resolution-tests-rift-vs-vivepro-updated-with-camera-through-lenses-pics/?do=findComment&comment=618137

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/52371-valve-index-vs-pimax5k-which-one-to-pick-through-lens-pictures/

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/53603-valve-index-vs-hp-reverb-through-the-lens-pictures/

 

But as you know VR devices are very subjective. For example, the glare thing of the Index is barely noticeable to me, not really a problem. And about greys/blacks, for me the the black of the Index is enough black for IL-2 (most of missions for me are on daylight). If you play space sims, perhaps it is more important.

 

You can try the G2 as well given that you have a 3080. Many people is happy with that. But with a good return policy if you don´t like it.

 

Chili they all pretty good to me from those pics the worst looking might actually be the pro lol.  I might have to give the index or g2 a try and maybe return if I dont like.  

18 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Try the LensMod. You must, really. 

I tried it on the Cosmos (yes yes, I know) and it had beaten anything I've seen regarding edge to edge clarity).

Make sure to save your VivePro's distortion profile! Google it!

 

Then also use the 3080 to supersample a bit higher and this have less aliasing. 

 

You won't regret it :))

 

Fenris I did the lens mod years ago and yes it makes a big difference.  I already super sample pretty high with the 1080 it will be interesting what steam recommends on the 3080.  At 140% with the 1080 I dont use AA there is no need from what I can tell. 

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30speed
5 hours ago, JV44_Megla said:

Chili they all pretty good to me from those pics the worst looking might actually be the pro lol.  I might have to give the index or g2 a try and maybe return if I dont like. 

 

I wouldn't judge any HMD based on the "thru the lens" pictures as they are completely and totally misleading:

  • color contrast thru the lens is an utter fraud. 😄  It's because there's a camera color post processing + your monitor color processing, meaning the image you'll see when you put on the HMD will be parsecs away from your expectations 😄
  • image clarity in the picture is always taken through the lens' sweet spot, i.e. the picture in no way conveys the size of the sweet spot nor the amount of glare you get when you're wearing the hmd.

 

I have G2 now and I can tell you the pro's and con's vs VivePro:

pro's:

- with G2 the image shimmering is dramatically reduced (>95%), the only ones remaining are near the horizon and very very far away, it doesn't take away much from the clarity of the picture one bit. This alone was worth getting it for me despite all the cons, but this is an extremely subjective personal opinion. You get a very clean picture in the HMD, almost a monitor-like.

- inside-out tracking, you don't need the base stations anymore, i.e. the cockpit setup takes less space. (Tracking is very good)

- very comfortable and light. Has the mechanical IPD adjustment like the vivepro.

con's:

- FOV is much lower. In-game vivePro was showing 104 degrees, whereas G2 is showing 90.

- there is some little glare, but very little. (Vivepro+gearVR has zero glare).

- its LCD panels can't recreate true blacks, however it's a LOT better than Index. Actually, I was very surprised to get such a good color contrast from these LCD's. The dusk flying is doable, but again it's not like in vivepro's OLED's.

 

G2 is a mixed bag, it took me couple of weeks to get used to it, but its bump in resolution made me appreciate the awesomeness of the IL2 game even more and I haven't touched VivePro ever since. The dusk flying and seeing the tiny headlights from the car convoys below is such a cool experience. Seeing all minuscule and painstaking details the devs put in to the airplanes is amazing, especially when you're flying on formation.

 

In all for IL2 I wouldn't recommend Index after VivePro+gearVR, however G2 is definitely worth trying out.

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SCG_Fenris_Wolf
10 hours ago, JV44_Megla said:

 

Chili they all pretty good to me from those pics the worst looking might actually be the pro lol.  I might have to give the index or g2 a try and maybe return if I dont like.  

 

Fenris I did the lens mod years ago and yes it makes a big difference.  I already super sample pretty high with the 1080 it will be interesting what steam recommends on the 3080.  At 140% with the 1080 I dont use AA there is no need from what I can tell. 

Great!

 

Then only get the Index under the premise, that you can give it back for a full refund after trying it if you decide so. :biggrin:

 

The Reverb G2 is the next natural upgrade to be honest.

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chiliwili69
17 hours ago, 69th_Didney_World said:

 

I wouldn't judge any HMD based on the "thru the lens" pictures as they are completely and totally misleading:

  • color contrast thru the lens is an utter fraud. 😄  It's because there's a camera color post processing + your monitor color processing, meaning the image you'll see when you put on the HMD will be parsecs away from your expectations 😄
  • image clarity in the picture is always taken through the lens' sweet spot, i.e. the picture in no way conveys the size of the sweet spot nor the amount of glare you get when you're wearing the hmd.

 

That´s right. The colors, contrast and sweet-spot (clarity edge-to-edge) can not be fully reproduced by camera thru-the-lens pictures. So, a decission to take one or the other can not be based solely in these kind of pictures. You need to try the device with your own eyes.

For example, there are people who are less sensible to small sweet-spots, or lens sensible to SDE or glare, or lens sensible to poor performance, etc.

But, in terms of image resolution in the center of the vision, I would say that the thru-lens pictures are a fair representation of what I see with my own eyes. And that´s the reason of why I took them to do A - B comparisons.

 

Regarding G2 or Index I think both are good devices. With the index you only need to acquire the headset since you already have basestations.

If you can return them, I would take both and compare.

This is my comparison of the G2 vs Index. I couldn´t live with the small sweet-spot of the G2 and reduced FOV, but center resolution was simple amazing:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/67855-valve-index-vs-reverb-g2-my-view-with-through-the-lens-pictures/

 

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30speed
5 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

in terms of image resolution in the center of the vision, I would say that the thru-lens pictures are a fair representation of what I see with my own eyes

 

it's great that you find it helpful, however for me personally the only thing that these pictures convey is the amount of fuzziness and blur in the pictures themselves. For me none of it translates in to actual experience in any meaningful way. I get a better informational load by reading the HMD specifications rather then looking at these pictures. :) 

 

Case and point: 

  • 3 years ago I had a Rift civ1. Then HTC released a VivePro headset. I looked at the "thru the lens" pictures circulating online and couldn't see any significant difference between Civ1 pictures and the VivePro.
  • As a matter of fact some parts of the pictures were clearer in Civ1 and others in VivePro. However the specs told a different story and I just went for the higher resolution.
  • When I put on the vivepro HMD the jump in clarity astounded me. I couldn't understand why it was so dramatic. Later one I suspected that the color contrast had everything to do with that.

now think about it. The color contrast gets misrepresented by 1) camera  and  2) monitor  where it makes the images from several different HMD's to appear having 95% same color contrast, whereas in reality the difference can be quite dramatically different (50%). Add the anti-aliasing processing of the Camera, then add AA of the graphics card in your laptop/desktop pumping the image to your monitor and soon you realize the amount of changes that were done to these pictures is so high it's almost like a game of a "telephone" where you pass a message 10 times from one person to another getting a totally different 'message' at the end.

 

anyway, that's my 2 cents on the issue. 😄

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JG301_Megla

You guys all bring up good points. I can see what Chili is getting at with the pictures even though I would say the best way to really see the difference is by experience. 

 

On 2/4/2021 at 5:59 AM, 69th_Didney_World said:

 

I wouldn't judge any HMD based on the "thru the lens" pictures as they are completely and totally misleading:

  • color contrast thru the lens is an utter fraud. 😄  It's because there's a camera color post processing + your monitor color processing, meaning the image you'll see when you put on the HMD will be parsecs away from your expectations 😄
  • image clarity in the picture is always taken through the lens' sweet spot, i.e. the picture in no way conveys the size of the sweet spot nor the amount of glare you get when you're wearing the hmd.

 

I have G2 now and I can tell you the pro's and con's vs VivePro:

pro's:

- with G2 the image shimmering is dramatically reduced (>95%), the only ones remaining are near the horizon and very very far away, it doesn't take away much from the clarity of the picture one bit. This alone was worth getting it for me despite all the cons, but this is an extremely subjective personal opinion. You get a very clean picture in the HMD, almost a monitor-like.

- inside-out tracking, you don't need the base stations anymore, i.e. the cockpit setup takes less space. (Tracking is very good)

- very comfortable and light. Has the mechanical IPD adjustment like the vivepro.

con's:

- FOV is much lower. In-game vivePro was showing 104 degrees, whereas G2 is showing 90.

- there is some little glare, but very little. (Vivepro+gearVR has zero glare).

- its LCD panels can't recreate true blacks, however it's a LOT better than Index. Actually, I was very surprised to get such a good color contrast from these LCD's. The dusk flying is doable, but again it's not like in vivepro's OLED's.

 

G2 is a mixed bag, it took me couple of weeks to get used to it, but its bump in resolution made me appreciate the awesomeness of the IL2 game even more and I haven't touched VivePro ever since. The dusk flying and seeing the tiny headlights from the car convoys below is such a cool experience. Seeing all minuscule and painstaking details the devs put in to the airplanes is amazing, especially when you're flying on formation.

 

In all for IL2 I wouldn't recommend Index after VivePro+gearVR, however G2 is definitely worth trying out.

 

I never noticed that the g2 has a smaller fov and while this is something to consider the most important thing for me is clarity for sure.  I find myself focus on specific things so fov isnt a major concern but I would guess the wider it is the better the experience.  

10 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

That´s right. The colors, contrast and sweet-spot (clarity edge-to-edge) can not be fully reproduced by camera thru-the-lens pictures. So, a decission to take one or the other can not be based solely in these kind of pictures. You need to try the device with your own eyes.

For example, there are people who are less sensible to small sweet-spots, or lens sensible to SDE or glare, or lens sensible to poor performance, etc.

But, in terms of image resolution in the center of the vision, I would say that the thru-lens pictures are a fair representation of what I see with my own eyes. And that´s the reason of why I took them to do A - B comparisons.

 

Regarding G2 or Index I think both are good devices. With the index you only need to acquire the headset since you already have basestations.

If you can return them, I would take both and compare.

This is my comparison of the G2 vs Index. I couldn´t live with the small sweet-spot of the G2 and reduced FOV, but center resolution was simple amazing:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/67855-valve-index-vs-reverb-g2-my-view-with-through-the-lens-pictures/

 

 

My thought on leaning towards the g2 comes from the idea of the screens + the low weight of the headset.  Not sure how both compare to the pro but im assuming they are both lighter which is a good thing. The pro has almost broken my neck in the passed.  

 

The basestations and the price of the valve headset as a standalone coupled with is software is what caught my interest at first.  I would say that its a tuff call picking between the g2 and the index at this point.  

23 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Great!

 

Then only get the Index under the premise, that you can give it back for a full refund after trying it if you decide so. :biggrin:

 

The Reverb G2 is the next natural upgrade to be honest.

 

Seem the case even though I would still like to try the index to see the difference between that and the pro if anything.  But I agree the g2 is looking like the strongest headset image wise.

 

 

After installing the 3080 last night the thing im wondering is how high I can ss now without blowing up the pro.  With the typical bottomed out presets I could easily run the SS up to 200%.  It was a monitor like as I think the pro can get a pretty impressive.  The only issue seemed to be that after about 10minutes the pro started to smell like burning plastic lol. I got scared a backed it down to 180%. Image quality was still pretty damn good but the headset still got to hot in my mind to sustain that level of ss.  170% you could see the image start to suffer slightly but the temp was stable which is where I left it for now. 

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30speed
5 minutes ago, JV44_Megla said:

The only issue seemed to be that after about 10minutes the pro started to smell like burning plastic lol. I got scared a backed it down to 180%. Image quality was still pretty damn good but the headset still got to hot in my mind to sustain that level of ss.  170% you could see the image start to suffer slightly but the temp was stable which is where I left it for now. 

 

this is a bit curious, are you suggesting that VivePro performs calculations during the high SS? 😄  I'm like 99.999999999999999999 % sure it still gets the same amount of pixels from your 3080's display port regardless if your SS = 10% of 1000% 😄

 

 

on a serious note:  I use a small floor fan that blows at my face/hmd during the game sessions to keep the temperature down, otherwise it's a sweat-a-thon.. :)  highly recommended.

 

 

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JG301_Megla

Im not sure whats going on but trust me the headset felt like it was going into melt down at 200% ss.  I am going to try again to see what happens.

 

I use ac or a fan in the summer.  Its cool enough this time a year where I am.  

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chiliwili69
On 2/5/2021 at 3:27 PM, 69th_Didney_World said:

the only thing that these pictures convey is the amount of fuzziness and blur in the pictures themselves. For me none of it translates in to actual experience in any meaningful way. I get a better informational load by reading the HMD specifications rather then looking at these pictures

 

You need to take into account that the they are crops of a larger picture (12Mpixel), so that´s why it has fuzziness since you can almost see the pixels arrays.

 

On the HMD specs, sometimes they are misleading. There are other factors like panel utilization, real FOV/advertised FOV,  sweet-spot (there is not specs for this), lens quality, latencies, etc.

Obviously they are a good starting point, but they only way to know what is best for one is just try it with your own eyes.

For example, based on specs I had a big hope for the G2, but unfortunately the sweet-spot issue in there and I thought that the FOV was going to be a bit better.

On 2/5/2021 at 7:30 PM, JV44_Megla said:

the low weight of the headset.  Not sure how both compare to the pro but im assuming they are both lighter which is a good thing. The pro has almost broken my neck in the passed.

The Index is much heavier than the Reverb (G1 or G2):

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/53603-valve-index-vs-hp-reverb-through-the-lens-pictures/?do=findComment&comment=814350

 

I had to put 200grms extra in the back side to have more compensation and less pressure on the cheeks:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/68347-index-or-other-devices-small-mod-for-increased-comfort/

 

BTW, Valve say that if you are not satisfy with the purchase you have 30 days to return the hardware.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7013-OXBM-2746

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=8620-QYAL-4516

 

With the G2, I got a full refund of through the Bestware german retailer (Schenker Technologies GmbH), no question asked but I gave them my reasons.

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