Invisible Fokker Scourge

[US93_Rummell 193]

S friends. Have any of you noticed a lot more invisible DVIIs recently? I’ve seen several this week including last night with J2_Bidu. The EA was just a levitating pilot until we zoomed in! I get this too when I spin up my own servers. When I play back the tracks it doesn’t seem to be happening.

 

Anyone else seen this and lodged bug requests before i log another?

[Zooropa_Fly 786]

No, but it solves the meat or metal conundrum.

 

S!

[J2_Bidu 446]

44 minutes ago, US93_Rummell said:

S friends. Have any of you noticed a lot more invisible DVIIs recently? I’ve seen several this week including last night with J2_Bidu. The EA was just a levitating pilot until we zoomed in! I get this too when I spin up my own servers. When I play back the tracks it doesn’t seem to be happening.

 

Anyone else seen this and lodged bug requests before i log another?

 

I have reported it. Still gotta fetch that track.

45 minutes ago, US93_Rummell said:

The EA was just a levitating pilot until we zoomed in!

 

The solution seems to be zoom and boom.

[ShamrockOneFive 3668]

I noticed that yesterday and the day before too. I wonder if its a LOD issue as the aircraft is visible when zoomed in (thus necessitating a higher level LOD) but when zoomed out the aircraft seems to disappear. It's very pronounced.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk 1260]

Yes, saw only pilot then D7f.

[gascan 151]

I don't know about more invisible D7's recently, I've noticed them for a while. I even put up a bug report with some footage from Black September Week 4 of a pair of invisible D7's on an offensive patrol near Bruay, from both my view and Kotori's view. The plane is invisible when zoomed out, but pops in with a bit of zoom, and it only seems to happen with the D7 or D7F. Quite frustrating. Unfortunately, my cloaking device wasn't enough to save me on Thursday. Baer shot me down just as my pilot reached 7 hours and 2 minutes of survival...

Edited December 5, 2020 by gascan

[US213_Talbot 1359]

 

[US28_Baer 446]

I've only noticed it on the snow maps and can't replicate it on own server, but seems others seeing it on summer maps too

 

Here's one that disappeared right in front of me

 

 

[J99_Sizzlorr 441]

If you want to reproduce it try it with Fokker D.VII AIs, they tend to go invisible quite a lot. Thats why they aren't used in the Lens mission. I thought that is a problem now specific to the Fokker D.VII AI. But it seems player flown D.VII are also affected...

[J2_Trupobaw 912]

New visibility, new bugs...

[CfC=76SQN-FatherTed 181]

I saw flying engines on Thursday, which at certain distances then had airframes around them.

[HagarTheHorrible 1111]

1 hour ago, =CfC=FatherTed said:

I saw flying engines on Thursday, which at certain distances then had airframes around them.

Which is the opposite of what I saw in QMB,  Fokker VII’s but with no engines.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter 831]

If you are seeing flying pilots and flying engines, this is because the skin for the plane is not loading/is transparent for some reason.

[Todt_Von_Oben 170]

7 hours ago, US63_SpadLivesMatter said:

If you are seeing flying pilots and flying engines, this is because the skin for the plane is not loading/is transparent for some reason.

 

I agree.  To achieve this effect deliberately in SP, I selected only the black portion of the skin GooseH made for my triplane.  Discovered it by accident, actually.

 

Never tried it in MP; don't even know if it can be done there.  

 

But since you're seeing it (and if it's not deliberate) then I suspect the server, not the sim, is at fault.

 

 

 

 

 

[DirtyBiker 113]

43 minutes ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

 

I agree.  To achieve this effect deliberately in SP, I selected only the black portion of the skin GooseH made for my triplane.  Discovered it by accident, actually.

 

Never tried it in MP; don't even know if it can be done there.  

 

But since you're seeing it (and if it's not deliberate) then I suspect the server, not the sim, is at fault.

 

 

 

 

 

now thats flying by the seat of your pants

[US213_Talbot 1359]

You'd have to have downloaded the invisible skin to be able to "see" it. 

 

It's not the server. Happens anywhere really to include quick missions or hosting a server for yourself. 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by US93_Talbot

[Todt_Von_Oben 170]

I hadn't thought of that.  Others couldn't see it if the skin wasn't available to others.  

 

Also, someone deliberately flying this way wouldn't show up like this at distance and then grow a fuselage when you get near.   

 

I, myself, can't really say I've encountered the invisible plane in MP or SP; a couple possibles come to mind where a D7 showed up seemingly out of nowhere but I get bounced so much I wasn't sure.

 

But if it's widespread, it does sound like a bug.

 

 

[DirtyBiker 113]

1 hour ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

But if it's widespread, it does sound like a bug.

Sneeky central team working on something 

[US28_Baer 446]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:40 PM, HagarTheHorrible said:

Which is the opposite of what I saw in QMB,  Fokker VII’s but with no engines.

I get that too

[US93_Larner 1629]

5 hours ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

I hadn't thought of that.  Others couldn't see it if the skin wasn't available to others.  

 

Also, someone deliberately flying this way wouldn't show up like this at distance and then grow a fuselage when you get near.   

 

I, myself, can't really say I've encountered the invisible plane in MP or SP; a couple possibles come to mind where a D7 showed up seemingly out of nowhere but I get bounced so much I wasn't sure.

 

But if it's widespread, it does sound like a bug.

 

 

You might be able to see it better via track recording. I was watching some of my Quick Missions back with free-view from a distance and could see clear as day D7s disappearing as they got hit by gunfire. 

[Todt_Von_Oben 170]

Just now I flew about seven minutes at Flugpark: the noon map with light snow in the air; the provided D7F, as-is.  What I see in the FR (F3 "flyby" view) is the black front grill disappears (looks like the sky behind it) when it's inbound and reappears as it gets closer.  

 

And yes, I have seen that at other servers in the past week.

 

I've also seen two targets vanish in the past week as I was firing and I didn't kill the pilot or zap the engine.  At the time I just figured I got in a lucky shot and the game wrote them off but now I'm thinking maybe not. 

 

Gremlins. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Todt_Von_Oben

[J2_Trupobaw 912]

On 12/6/2020 at 2:40 PM, HagarTheHorrible said:

Which is the opposite of what I saw in QMB,  Fokker VII’s but with no engines.

That's the stub airframe for D.IIIaü D.VII (engine is not modelled yet).

 

On 12/6/2020 at 12:25 PM, J99_Sizzlorr said:

If you want to reproduce it try it with Fokker D.VII AIs, they tend to go invisible quite a lot. Thats why they aren't used in the Lens mission. 

Need to add that to my Turing test criteria. Flies a D.VII - isn't an AI...

Edited December 8, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[gascan 151]

53 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Need to add that to my Turing test criteria. Flies a D.VII - isn't an AI...

Pretty sure SPADs are also not AI. They tend to boom and zoom really hard, which is not fun for a new player trying out the Dogfight Zone during a quiet time.

[J99_Sizzlorr 441]

1 hour ago, gascan said:

Pretty sure SPADs are also not AI. They tend to boom and zoom really hard, which is not fun for a new player trying out the Dogfight Zone during a quiet time.

Spot on...

[Todt_Von_Oben 170]

On the subject in general and following the thread's latest turn: I have no problem with the SPAD, D7F, or the BnZ in an organized event or on a "full real" server.

 

But all it takes is two swoopers hanging out at MacDogfight's on comm and others can't turn anymore. 

 

Being a sitting duck gets old real fast; especially for the new or non-aligned player who probably bought the sim expecting to dogfight. 

 

We can't play this game selfishly and expect it to prosper.  But if we think and act communally (by leaving the team BnZ out of MacDogfight's) FC stands a better chance of survival.

 

I do that voluntarily because (1) I feel I owe it to the Developers and the community; and (2) I want to protect my investment and ensure this sim is still flying years from now.  Howsabout you?

 

Think about it, okay?

[US93_Larner 1629]

1 hour ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

*snipped from post above*

IMO a much more positive solution than attaching a stigma to BnZ in servers where BnZ planes are available  is to find, create, or find someone who is willing to create, a server that doesn't have BnZ aircraft. That way everyone's happy - the BnZ boys go to servers where they can fly the aircraft they like, and the turners that don't want to deal with it can go to the turn-fighter-only server.

 

5 hours ago, gascan said:

Pretty sure SPADs are also not AI. They tend to boom and zoom really hard, which is not fun for a new player trying out the Dogfight Zone during a quiet time.

Not sure if there are AI SPADs or not on Flugpark (Sizz will know), but if you're new to FC and you're not having any fun fighting BnZ'ers then you might want to consider a temporary alternative to the Flugpark, or dividing some of the playtime between Flugpark and doing other things in-game. The reason I say that is that the Flugpark is pretty much anything goes. You will run into SPADs and S.E's, and they will BnZ you. A lot of the time they won't be alone, either. It's just how it is!  

If you want to get to grips with WW1 air combat without the looming threat of being zapped by an Entente SkyRocket, there are a couple things to try: 

- Quick Missions. The quickest and easiest way to get into a fight vs. AI! 

- Non- Full-Real / dogfight servers. Granted there aren't many of these owing to FC's small community size, but they do exist and they're a great way to get into some fights vs other players. 

- Ask a Squadron if you can tag along to one of their training days, or even just show you the ropes / hang out with you and do some dogfighting outside of Flugpark! Most of the FC units are more than happy to accommodate newcomers. Who knows, you might even end up joining them! 

Edited December 9, 2020 by US93_Larner

[US213_Talbot 1359]

Come on guys, really? Are we doing this?

 

As a BnZ-er I'm terrified to get BnZ'd, which is why I try to look everywhere all at once all at the same time. 

 

Edit to add:

You could always......JOIN US......Oben....

Edited December 9, 2020 by US93_Talbot

[US28_Baer 446]

Unbelievable

 

Flugpark is only expert mode server dedicated for WW1, does it also have to be a training wheels location too, isnt Flugpark 2 meant for that?

At Lens, D7s are guaranteed to be humans for the reasons Sizzlor mentioned, so they're going to get targeted. No-one wants AI kills.

 

@gascan even if we wanted to avoid him, that guy was in a plain camo D7 in 3 different places, a furball low, up north diving in high to another scrap, and lastly, attacking our balloon. How the hell we supposed to know? Tell him to start checking his 6.

 

For context, my first MP experiences had me shot down 3 or 4 times in a row by the same guy on the RoF Island map. When i then wrote "aarrgghhh" in chat (at my own frustration) he wrote back " Not my fault you can't fly".

I got the msg, toughen up and learn faster. That guy is still here on the forums btw

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by US103_Baer

[kotori87 44]

We're getting a little off the original topic here. Might want to spin these posts off into a separate thread. Oh well, lets go down this rabbit hole.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to start a separate server without BnZ planes. I also don't think it's a good idea to just say "just play single-player then" or "git gud scrub". I know some folks may be getting over-excited by the large turnouts we've had at peak hours the last few weeks, but please remember that this isn't Call of Teenagers or PlayerUnknown's Trashtalk with several million players to randomly matchmake with. During off-hours there's only a few players on at a time. Anything that splinters the community further is a bad idea. Heck, you all saw how barren things were when we were spread out over just a few more kilometers of front.

[US93_Rummell 193]

BnZ works best when it’s an ambush attack whether you’re in a Diii or an SE5. Icons really level the playing field. Taking on a well-flown Dr1 in a Spad with icons is not at all easy. NB any plane can be BnZ or used as an energy fighter. I’ve been bounced by CL2s this year :-S

[J2_Bidu 446]

As much as I'd love not to be bounced by 103's, I'll keep trying to train my neural networks for that, instead of relying on magic/religion (tried - does not work!) or any form of organized babysitting... ...OR we could have the server automatically disconnect anyone firing at a speed higher than 220 km/h!!! @J5_Baeumer, are you there?

[US63_SpadLivesMatter 831]

6 hours ago, US93_Rummell said:

Taking on a well-flown Dr1 in a Spad with icons is not at all easy. NB any plane can be BnZ or used as an energy fighter. I’ve been bounced by CL2s this year :-S

 

You could do it pretty reliably in RoF because the DR1 couldn't climb up to catch you, and the bullet dispersion made it hard to hit you.  In FC though, it's a whole different ballgame.

[gascan 151]

7 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

Flugpark is only expert mode server dedicated for WW1, does it also have to be a training wheels location too, isnt Flugpark 2 meant for that?

At Lens, D7s are guaranteed to be humans for the reasons Sizzlor mentioned, so they're going to get targeted. No-one wants AI kills.

 

@gascan even if we wanted to avoid him, that guy was in a plain camo D7 in 3 different places, a furball low, up north diving in high to another scrap, and lastly, attacking our balloon. How the hell we supposed to know? Tell him to start checking his 6.

 

To clarify my earlier comment, I was offering Trupobaw another thing to look for to tell human from AI in the dogfight area. I certainly did not intend to disparage BnZ as a tactic, merely citing the reason SPADs and D7's aren't found in the AI Dogfight area. Sizzlor mentioned it when he released the new smaller maps. I suppose saying that the AI tends to "boom and zoom really hard" covered up the real reason rather than making it clear: the AI SPAD usually runs away once you start chasing it. A rookie is not likely to enjoy chasing an AI SPAD forever and never catching it, the same as he unlikely to enjoy seeing a D7 vanish and reappear. There's nothing to stop a player SPAD from running away, but if the AI does it, it defeats the purpose of having the AI dogfight area in the first place.

 

It doesn't seem accurate to me to call the FlugPark the only expert mode server for WW1: rather it is the only server for WW1 that sees any sort of large numbers at all, ever. The AI Dogfight area helps draw in players of all skill levels. Bored veterans can play while waiting for server pop to pick up and rookies can learn how to fly and fight without icons. It encourages play in a "full real" server, something that I was too terrified to do until I'd played RoF for more than a year. The decision to add a "rookie" area to the only big server for WW1 makes sense to me, and I think we're seeing the benefits from it. Even better, it goes away once the server starts to fill up, forcing the PvP action most of us crave.

 

Can I get a quick count of people who like getting bounced? Or boomed hard by one plane after another, zooming away without the opportunity to return fire? How about getting killed by a plane you didn't know was there? It seems pretty obvious why fighting a BnZ plane can be frustrating. However, it is still a perfectly valid tactic, both historically and gameplay-wise. It simply makes sense to do everything possible to maximize your effect on the enemy (killing/shooting down) while minimizing the enemy's effect on you (shooting back).  I'm still learning and practicing energy fighting, as well as how to fight back or escape. So far, I've learned that I have a long way to go. Let me be clear: I am not suggesting that anybody should avoid attacking anybody. FlugPark is a PvP server, after all. Making un-enforceable rules like "no BnZ" or removing BnZ planes like the SPAD or SE5 would be counterproductive, and I like having pilots online to fly with and against. You guys in the 3rd Pursuit Group are damn good at what you do. I've had some really tense fights against you guys: high above the clouds, trying to keep you all in sight, trying to climb ever higher, moving closer or backing off, looking for the moment when you guys dive in so I can try to dodge and get a return shot. Very different from a swirling furball of turn-fighters, much more positioning and situational awareness. You guys have saved my bacon escorting me in a Bristol. But there are also those undeniably frustrating times when I get flattened by the train of SPADs that I never saw. For a good fight, I'll offer a salute. I must admit there are also times when I avoid you guys as best I can because I'm not always up for that kind of fight.

 

We've definitely gotten a bit off the original topic. In addition to the invisible D7's, I've seen an issue where skins don't always show up, even if I have the correct skin installed. I have seen a skin pop in right in the middle of combat. At the J5 formation flight practice on Saturday, everyone was wearing a J5 skin (I had a generic J5 skin so nobody would stare at me), but I saw a number of planes that appeared with the default skin.

[SeaSerpent 978]

I'm not sure that invisible or partially visible aircraft is limited to just D.VIIs.

 

My wingman and I experienced an anomaly on the Finnish WW2 server the other day.  We did a formation takeoff, but I botched it, and had to get a new plane.  I respawned and when my wingman came to rejoin, he wasn't visible.  He came into parade formation just off my right wing, but never became visible.  I've heard about these things happening on the rarest of occasions, going all the way back to RoF, but never experienced it in any way that could be confirmed like this.  Saw unexplained gunfire originating from nowhere once or twice in RoF, when the server was about to crash.   Our impression is that the Finnish server itself was experiencing some instability, since prior to that we had both experienced some disconnects.  I'm not going to lose sleep over it 😀.

 

My 2 cents on BnZ or One Pass Haul Ass tactics:  If someone is of the impression that this is unfair or dirty, they  might want to actually learn something about aerial combat over the last 100 or so years.  Newbies will get pissed off and act like "that one didn't count because I was surprised!", and I remember making rationalizations like that myself when I was new to this (must have been an invisible airplane!!!).  But people need to get over that.  If not, then this isn't the game for them.

Edited December 10, 2020 by SeaSerpent
typo corrections.

[DirtyBiker 113]

ALL is fair in love and WAR and FlugPark just happens to be the wargrounds .

 

[US93_Larner 1629]

@SeaSerpent yeah, IIRC the FC guys that looked into invisible planes found that it had been a long-standing problem on the WW2 side. For some reason in FC, it seems to affect D.VIIs more than anything else. 

[J2_Trupobaw 912]

Not sure what the MacDogfight is (an airquake server? brawl area on Flugpark?). But, anyway,

1. these two swoopers hanging over low level turn fights are themselves very low and asking to be jumped, once one of them goes for the swoop the other has no one to protect him against dangers above.  Even if they do the Spad thing and dive away, they have to mind all these planes below them. Climb over them if you are outside the combat, dive for your lines, or concentrate on surviving and hope someone will run them away.

2. If these guys can pull it off, fish some kills out of the brawl and both go home unscatched in Spads... they would be no less party crashers if they came in the Camels  and dispersed the brawl close and personal. It's not their choice of BnZ that brings disparity.

3. Putting on baby gloves because some of the guys in the brawl may be newbies... sorry, there is no way to know that. even if server is full of new names they may as well be WW2 vets we hadn't met before. Assuming opponents incompetence is a no-no. Newbies should get the same benefit of doubt as anyone whose skin we don't recognize.

Edited December 10, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[SeaSerpent 978]

5 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Not sure what the MacDogfight is (an airquake server? brawl area on Flugpark?). But, anyway,
 

 

He is referring to McDonald's (the fast food hamburger place).  In the West, it is common vernacular to add Mac or Mc to the front of a word to denote immediate gratification.

[SYN_Ricky 117]

10 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

I'm not sure that invisible or partially visible aircraft is limited to just D.VIIs.

 

My wingman and I experienced an anomaly on the Finnish WW2 server the other day.  We did a formation takeoff, but I botched it, and had to get a new plane.  I respawned and when my wingman came to rejoin, he wasn't visible.  He came into parade formation just off my right wing, but never became visible.  I've heard about these things happening on the rarest of occasions, going all the way back to RoF, but never experienced it in any way that could be confirmed like this.  Saw unexplained gunfire originating from nowhere once or twice in RoF, when the server was about to crash.   Our impression is that the Finnish server itself was experiencing some instability, since prior to that we had both experienced some disconnects.  I'm not going to lose sleep over it 😀.

 

My 2 cents on BnZ or One Pass Haul Ass tactics:  If someone is of the impression that this is unfair or dirty, they  might want to actually learn something about aerial combat over the last 100 or so years.  Newbies will get pissed off and act like "that one didn't count because I was surprised!", and I remember making rationalizations like that myself when I was new to this (must have been an invisible airplane!!!).  But people need to get over that.  If not, then this isn't the game for them.

 

I had that happen playing tanks on the Finnish server. I was waiting a pal in my Sherman just north of the spawn point, I tell him so and I see him passing by a few meters away asking me where the hell I was. I realized at that moment he couldn't see me. I made him stop, pulled right next to him but I was still invisible.

[US93_Larner 1629]

So far I've seen both the invisi-engine thing and the full invisibility on D7s. Baer caught one clear as day on one of his streams as well. One of the 3rd PG guys pointed out that it started reappearing after a visibility update - IIRC there was another visibility update shortly before the first batch of invisible D7s. 

The thing that is really bizarre to me is that it's only seeming to affect the one plane type (or, at least, affecting it vastly more than the others)! 

Edited December 10, 2020 by US93_Larner