Zen3 Ryzen 5000 serie

[Voyager]

@coconut Yes. That said, the 3950X launched at $750, so the 5950X launching at $800 is a relatively small cost increase over the last one. 

 

The 16 core chips were always going to be expensive because they require two top quality chips, so they could do two 5800X parts for what it takes to build one 5950X.

 

The 12 cores generally only use one top quality chip and one low quality chip. So it's not as big a resource delta from the 5800X

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

AMD dropped the ball. These chips are a DOA for us.

 

For gaming, and especially VR gaming, I require 6 cores and boosts under AVX loads between 5GHz to 5.2GHz. That's reality.

 

Dreaming of applications or games that benefit from 12 cores is not a use-case I can befriend with. Reality strikes before that.

 

 

That's all really disappointing - I hoped for AMD to kill Intel at some point, finally.

Edited October 8, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Gambit21]

5 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

AMD dropped the ball. These chips are a DOA for us.

 

I find that hard to believe given the performance of my first gen Ryzen.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

You need to take the first sentence in context with my second. It's two lines below the first.?

[R3animate]

8 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

AMD dropped the ball. These chips are a DOA for us.

 

For gaming, and especially VR gaming, I require 6 cores and boosts under AVX loads between 5GHz to 5.2GHz. That's reality.

 

..Do IPC improvements not apply to AVX workloads? 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

Still it seems Zen3 5900X beat 10900K in single core performance, at a lower frequency, in that 1080p test. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by LLv34_Flanker

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

How much can Zen3s hold under AVX continuously, and what's the price point? 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

So far it looks the new 5900X will cost less than 10900K here. Intel costs 570€ here. 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

You guys don't play VR. It's not feasible to assume you'd know what I'm talking about.

 

AMD has been a DOA for VR applications for years - which is to blame actually on the way developers engineer their engines or port them into VR, but hey. Result is result. 

 

 

P.S. In Europe 600€ for the 5900X + 190€ for an X570 MB. My i7 7700K @4.8GHz under AVX load, delidded and watercooled, is years old and still doesn't bottleneck IL-2 in VR. While your current one, the 3900X, doesn't reach 80% of its performance under these conditions. Don't get me wrong. I really hoped AMD would deliver. I'll have to see what frametimes they can deliver under real world use-cases in VR first. Currently, it doesn't look like this is competitive to my chip from 2017. As I said, 4-6 cores is enough, close to 5GHz loads must be maintained with an AVX offset of 0. Until now, no Zen could ever even get close to that, which is a pity. Competition drives innovation, and we really need both.

Edited October 8, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

I do not have the system anymore Already sold, should update my signature

 

I ran Varjo VR on the rig when I had the 2080Ti. Games used DCS and IL-2. DCS ran smooth as heck as it was supported by Varjo out of the box. IL-2 ran too, with some issues, as it did not have support like DCS had. But it ran while fully playable. And I did not change any settings really. 

[R3animate]

5 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

You guys don't play VR. It's not feasible to assume you'd know what I'm talking about.

 

AMD has been a DOA for VR applications for years - which is to blame actually on the way developers engineer their engines or port them into VR, but hey. Result is result. 

 

 

P.S. In Europe 600€ for the 5900X + 190€ for an X570 MB. My i7 7700K @4.8GHz under AVX load, delidded and watercooled, is years old and still doesn't bottleneck IL-2 in VR. While your current one, the 3900X, doesn't reach 80% of its performance under these conditions. Don't get me wrong. I really hoped AMD would deliver. I'll have to see what frametimes they can deliver under real world use-cases in VR first. Currently, it doesn't look like this is competitive to my chip from 2017. As I said, 4-6 cores is enough, close to 5GHz loads must be maintained with an AVX offset of 0. Until now, no Zen could ever even get close to that, which is a pity. Competition drives innovation, and we really need both.

 

i7-6700k @4.5ghz, exclusively playing in VR. I'll ask again, do IPC gains not count for AVX? Zen2 saw big gains for AVX workloads. Zen3 likely will as well but there are no benchmarks available at this time.

[Gambit21]

20 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

You need to take the first sentence in context with my second. It's two lines below the first.?

 

I understood you just fine.

You said “us” when perhaps you meant “you”.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

@Gambit21 Yes, with us I meant the VR Simulator enthusiasts. So that may fit as "you" from your perspective, in plural, if you don't count yourself as part of it.

 

@LLv34_Flanker No, you were in reprojection. That's not "fluid" in my dictionary, but suffers from graphical artifacts. @chiliwili69 had gathered extensive data on the old Ryzens. By the way, nice avatar, there shall be peace and order for the Galaxy.

 

 

I really wish for that the Zen3 will actually cut it in VR with these legacy engines. As said, we will need data on it.

 

If it goes by anything from before of the older gen, the Zens can't hold their max boosts infinitely. I really hope they will do though.

Edited October 8, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[Gambit21]

You VR guys have a whole other level of concerns. I’m happy to steer clear for now.

4K works for me.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

39 minutes ago, R3animate said:

 

i7-6700k @4.5ghz, exclusively playing in VR. I'll ask again, do IPC gains not count for AVX? Zen2 saw big gains for AVX workloads. Zen3 likely will as well but there are no benchmarks available at this time.

 

IPC gains do count. What's the IPC gain in AVX over a modern Intel at what max infinite boost held? I wonder if the new cache architecture lets us avoid latency in VR. IL-2's main hops from thread to thread.

 

P.S. I am agnostic to what is the best. I like competition, so we all benefit, both in performance and in price. I have seen the keynotes, and the 25%ish IPC gains were over their own previous Ryzen generation. You know these presentations are always shaped in order to show their own well. The benchmarks were mostly on multithreaded engines, no AVX, nor engines with incredibly complex mains like IL-2, DCS, or MSFS2020... unfortunately. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[messsucher]

55 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

You guys don't play VR. It's not feasible to assume you'd know what I'm talking about.

 

AMD has been a DOA for VR applications for years - which is to blame actually on the way developers engineer their engines or port them into VR, but hey. Result is result. 

 

 

P.S. In Europe 600€ for the 5900X + 190€ for an X570 MB. My i7 7700K @4.8GHz under AVX load, delidded and watercooled, is years old and still doesn't bottleneck IL-2 in VR. While your current one, the 3900X, doesn't reach 80% of its performance under these conditions. Don't get me wrong. I really hoped AMD would deliver. I'll have to see what frametimes they can deliver under real world use-cases in VR first. Currently, it doesn't look like this is competitive to my chip from 2017. As I said, 4-6 cores is enough, close to 5GHz loads must be maintained with an AVX offset of 0. Until now, no Zen could ever even get close to that, which is a pity. Competition drives innovation, and we really need both.

 

I don't have a great computer. RX 5700, Ryzen 7 3700X, 32 GB RAM, Linux as OS, and Vive Pro. I get with about maxed settings (without AA things) 45 FPS capped when flying at 2k and less than 10 planes around. I am surprised of that performance, though, would obviously need some more, but for the price I don't think it is bad?

[cardboard_killer]

29 minutes ago, messsucher said:

 

I don't have a great computer. RX 5700, Ryzen 7 3700X, 32 GB RAM, Linux as OS, and Vive Pro. I get with about maxed settings (without AA things) 45 FPS capped when flying at 2k and less than 10 planes around. I am surprised of that performance, though, would obviously need some more, but for the price I don't think it is bad?

 

My components are far worse than that, yet I do 60 fps for the most part only trying for 1080p. How am I doing so well?

Edited October 8, 2020 by cardboard_killer

[messsucher]

5 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

 

My components are far worse than that, yet I do 60 fps for the most part only trying for 1080p. How am I doing so well?

 

I am honestly interested because I don't have much to compare that with. I am interested to know how much Linux taxes the FPS when compared. I thought that here are people who are experienced and can say that it is bad or it is ok or it is fine.

[cardboard_killer]

Currently running a four year old build 16 gigs of RAM; i5-6500 (quad core); Rx580 (8gig vram); 250 gig SSID. Widows 10 home

Edited October 8, 2020 by cardboard_killer

[messsucher]

18 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

Currently running a four year old build 16 gigs of RAM; i5-6500 (quad core); Rx580 (8gig vram); 250 gig SSID. Widows 10 home

 

Ok, in normal screen mode I don't actually know how many FPS I get because use vertical sync, but can try now.

[Jaws2002]

This chips look pretty good, and show a solid performance improvement over last generation, with no increase in power consumption at all. 

What i'm disapointed about is the lack of improvement in speed of the infinity fabric. Steve from GN got additional info from AMD and they said the memory controller and infinity fabric stays the same as last generation. 

  That means memory faster than 3600MHz is useless with this generation as well. 

  On Intel you will get steady performance gains if you use faster memory and the vast majority of games can make good use of faster memory. On Ryzen you lose performance if you get over the infinity fabric speed.

 I was entertaining the idea of swapping the cpu for this generation and also swap my 3600MHz memory for a 4400-4800Mhz kit and be able to run them at one to one ratio with the Infinity fabric if they boosted it's speed. Swapping just the CPU, without being able to take advantage of faster memory, doesn't look that tempting.

  I'll wait for the reviews, but looks like I'll be only upgrading the GPU this time. 

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

6 hours ago, cardboard_killer said:

Currently running a four year old build 16 gigs of RAM; i5-6500 (quad core); Rx580 (8gig vram); 250 gig SSID. Widows 10 home

 

Performance in VR will generally be lower, so the comparison is not very meaningful. VR is heavier on the CPU because the scene needs to be rendered separately for each eye. The higher resolution of the displays also increases GPU requirements.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

Gonna build a Zen3 + Big Navi setup, liquid cooling the CPU. Why not Intel? See pic below..  Do not take it too seriously though.. ? 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by LLv34_Flanker

[messsucher]

That's actually funny because it is so true. But not so funny anymore in Intel train when you have to upgrade everything to get 5% to 10% more CPU time. So yeah, no thank you, Intel.

[Gambit21]

Exactly the experience I had when I went to upgrade my 5 year old i5 2500k 3 years ago. I think I was looking at a 20% improvement or around thereabouts - pathetic.

[354thFG_Leifr]

I think Zen3 is really nice, if a little overpriced on the like-for-like of Zen2. It's pretty clear that they're wanting folk to go all in and purchase the 5900X but it's too steep a price for me at £480ish. That said, I am still stuck on an R5 2600 and I was looking to yesterday's announcements as to what I should do. Now I know; I'll wait for Black Friday and pick up the 3600X or 3700X, whichever has the deepest discount available. It'll do for a couple of years until AMD have really stretched their legs and solidified their position with AM5/Zen4(+?).

[robbiec]

5900X looks compelling to me to replace my 3900X, drop in on my Crosshair VIII. 69xx XT(X) will be going in alongside. Might offload my 4 x 8GB 3200 C14 sticks and go 2 x 16GB 3600C15s.

[cardboard_killer]

6 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

Performance in VR will generally be lower, so the comparison is not very meaningful. VR is heavier on the CPU because the scene needs to be rendered separately for each eye. The higher resolution of the displays also increases GPU requirements.

 

I currently have no intention of slipping into VR, so not sure why we are talking of comparing it.

 

I've been thinking of building around the Ryzan 7 3700x (Zen 2) CPU, B550 MB, and my old Radeon RX580, replacing it once the 3000 cards drive the price of the 2060s down to below $250 or so.

[ZachariasX]

There is no better statement underscoring that AMD knows they fully own Intel wall to wall than the pricing on top of the competition.

 

If I was at Intel, I‘d be in full panic mode. Intel won in games as windows schedules threads between cores, meaning L1 cache has to follow and there‘s latency penalty for that. Now, AMD actually made 8 core chiplets, consisting only of what matters for gaming. They make less complicated chip in smaller structure on a mature node. This translates in far higher yield per wafer, putting Intel TCO under water if it came to a price war.

 

The 5950X gives you two Intel 9900 or 10700 in a single package. At probably the same manufacturing costs. And even Intels radmaps show nothing for an entire year that can change anything about that.

 

Intel not only suffers from technological deficits. It futher suffers from crippling what they have at the hands of their sales managers, hence the whole HEDT (x299) platform has no justification for its existence anymore as it cannot enter a price war.

 

I‘m not only happy for AMD, a tiny company compared to Intel and Nvidia, but I’m happy also for Intel. Having only non-competitive products (where the money is) that are more expensive to make forces them to make something really great. The Pentium 4 debacle spawned what became the Core architecture. As we know, it enjoyed spectacular success. The one or two years might well be miserable for Intel, yet I don‘t think it threatens Intel as a whole. AMD just cannot produce the numbers required for that. But it will have to win back a gaming enthusiast market that by then mostly shifted to AMD.

 

Great news for 2020. It‘s about bloody time.

[norsetto]

Once I see indipendent benchmark results (especially 5600 vs 3600) I wll have an opinion but, so far, I'm pretty disappointed by prices.

[Jaws2002]

23 minutes ago, norsetto said:

Once I see indipendent benchmark results (especially 5600 vs 3600) I wll have an opinion but, so far, I'm pretty disappointed by prices.

 Prices were expected to go up, once AMD gets the gaming crown and it looks like they did. It sucks for users to have no competition, regardless who's on top.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

4 hours ago, cardboard_killer said:

I currently have no intention of slipping into VR, so not sure why we are talking of comparing it.

 

You asked why you were "doing so well" getting 60 FPS while someone with better hardware was getting 45 FPS. The explanation is that he was talking about VR performance (Vive Pro) while you are on a monitor.

[cardboard_killer]

1 hour ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

You asked why you were "doing so well" getting 60 FPS while someone with better hardware was getting 45 FPS. The explanation is that he was talking about VR performance (Vive Pro) while you are on a monitor.

 

Why is he talking about VR in a non-VR folder without specifying that he is doing so?

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

9 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

Why is he talking about VR in a non-VR folder without specifying that he is doing so?

 

He did specify. In the post you quoted, he said that he is using a Vive Pro.

[cardboard_killer]

39 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

is using a Vive Pro.

 

 

What's a vive pro? Why should I know it?

[Gambit21]

This is going to a fun build - worth the hassle of reinstalling all of my crap.

 

With my first Ryzen build 3 years ago I had to comb Tom’s hardware boards etc to figure out what the best memory was. I hope it’s a bit easier to sort out this time.

 

New Mobo - probably stick with Asus unless someone advises differently for a very good reason.

[jollyjack]

I used to be an asus devotee ..... have an MSI now,, z390 ace, for over a year. Works fine.

Bang for the buck today ??: https://www.techspot.com/review/2020-msi-x570-tomahawk/

Edited October 9, 2020 by jollyjack

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, jollyjack said:

I used to be an asus devotee ..... have an MSI now,, z390 ace, for over a year. Works fine.

Bang for the buck today ??: https://www.techspot.com/review/2020-msi-x570-tomahawk/

 

..:and there it is.

Thank you!

 

You guys are making my normally days and days long research slog easy this time.

[cardboard_killer]

3 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

New Mobo - probably stick with Asus unless someone advises differently for a very good reason.

 

I've been happy with MSI, too, the last two builds. This is basically Tom's Hardware $800 recommendation, with some upgrades/changes.

 

So much drool I had to order the parts:

 

XPG SX6000 Pro M.2 2280 1TB PCI-Express 3.0 x4 2nd Gen. 64-layer 3D TLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

MSI MPG B550 GAMING PLUS AM4 AMD B550 SATA 6Gb/s ATX AMD Motherboard

Patriot Viper Steel 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Desktop Memory Model

Antec Dark League DF600 FLUX

Cooler Master Master Watt 750 Watt Semi-Fanless Silencio Fan, Semi-Modular 80 PLUS Bronze Power Supply

AMD RYZEN 7 3700X 8-Core 3.6 GHz (4.4 GHz Max Boost) Socket AM4 65W (Generation 3) (came with "free" 120 gig SSID, no ideas that to do with it yet)

 

I think I went out of control with the PS. 750 watts is a lot of wattage considering the CPU's relatively low power need, but if there's one thing I hate it's an underpowered machine. For $20 more than what was suggested I got substantial overhead. The case is pure vanity; I've never bought an LED case. This will be my first case without a CD/DVD/BluRay since 1990s. So many USB 3 points . . .

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by cardboard_killer

[messsucher]

7 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

..:and there it is.

Thank you!

 

You guys are making my normally days and days long research slog easy this time.

 

I have B450M Mortar, very happy with it.